Crash on resized lots at 7PM -- any ideas?

[pbox]

Hello,

a couple of days ago Mootilda posted a test version of the LotExpander (v1.2.7.8 ) on mts2 that can not only expand but also shrink lots. With this, it is now possible to build edge-to-edge on a lot (by building on a larger lot first, and then shrinking it) -- something that some people, me included, have been waiting for since the base game.

We're experiencing an infrequent crash on those resized lots, and I'm posting here in order to solicit help in trying to figure out what's causing it. I have a strong interest in this because I want to be able to upload resized lots with a clear conscience -- however I'm not a modder myself, nor am I involved in the LotExpander development on a technical level. I can't make sense of a crash log either, needless to say .. I can only build stuff. Please help, so that I can spend the rest of my life building sim row houses. Thank you.


Here is all I currently know:

* A few testers have experienced a crash at exactly 7PM on the first day (Monday) after moving sims into a resized lot. I only crashed once; Rascal managed several times, Simsample several times. Another tester (aelflaed) didn't get a single crash no matter how hard she tried; several others said they haven't had any crashes either.

* All of the lots it occurred on were built by me, using LE 1.2.7.7 and 1.2.7.8 respectively to shrink them on the left and right side (There is no technical difference between those versions w/r/t shrinking, says Mootilda). I have never heard of any such crash on any of my other lots (I have more than half a million downloads) -- so I'm very sure it has to do with the resizing.

* The crash does not happen consistently. All that's consistent is the time, and the fact that it only ever happened on the first day in a newly placed lot. It is unclear whether it's actually caused by something in the lot package itself, or by something the game does on a new lot at 7PM.

It would be fantastic if someone could take a look at the crash logs and help us figure this out.


See also this post where I try to maintain a list of possibly contributing factors vs. stuff that has been ruled out. Maybe it's helpful.


Reports:

simsample -- posted below, with logs

plasticbox:

original report | repost (with lot attached)

"My game crashed with the infamous "The application has crashed" error the first day around at 19:00 (7PM). This might have something to do with the night setting in (I can't think of anything else that's scheduled to happen at 19:00) -- the game being unable to render shadows or something.

On the first try (when it crashed), I had visible neighbours on and shadows set to High. On my second try, I turned neighbours and shadows off: no crash this time, and when I turned the neighbours back on it didn't crash either.

This is with Base+NL, in the "Mini Game" hood that's provided by the Base Game Starter, my testers were the Randoms, I had no hacks installed and no CC apart from frillen's invisible driveway. None of the sims was doing anything out of the ordinary at the time of the crash (I think they were watching TV or reading), and nobody except the two residents was present on the lot."

This was with Row House 01. Log attached below. I play on an ancient laptop, XP Home SP2, 1GB RAM, with an ATI Radeon Mobility 9600.

My "second try" was the exact same lot, same residents, same position, same everything -- I restarted the game, went back in the lot and resumed playing at 8AM (I hadn't saved).


Rascal:

From report 1 (the lot was Backdoor Lane 42; log attached below):

At just on 7pm (change from day to night) the game crashed. I reloaded the game and replayed the family through 7pm and game was fine. (..) Played through to next morning - sunrise - game just fine. So I moved another sim into an identical lot next door - no crash at 7pm.

From report 2 (using the same lot):

I tried placing the house in a different neighbourhood and moving in a new sim - again the crash at 7pm - again no crash on replay.

I have all eps up to and including seasons and no stuff packs. My game is definately not hack free - I have a large assortment from MATY and a few bits and pieces from here. I will try this again with no hacks later tonight and report back - but my game is usually very stable.

Further testing:

I'm afraid I can't establish a consistent set of circumstances that will cause a crash. I've only ever got the crash with the first of these lots in the neighbourhood that I've moved a sim into - but I've twice managed to move a brand new sim into a brand new lot in a brand new test neighbourhood with no crash. The only consistent thing is the time - always 7pm.

I tried the other shrunken lot house Plasticbox uploaded earlier in this thread and managed to get a crash the first time I moved a sim into that one too.

Having my hacks folder in or out doesn't seem to make any difference.

"other shrunken lot house" is either Row House 01 or Row House 03, not sure. Rascal has an ATI RADEON X800GT. I don't know anything else about her setup. Can try to poke her if necessary. Pentium 4 3.40GHz, 1GB RAM, XP Media Centre Edition SP2.


Comments so far:

Mootilda says here that the only difference between LotExpander 1.2.7.7 and 1.2.7.8 was an unrelated fix (fence posts).

Also (copied from below):

I am not deleting any objects during the shrinking process.  If an object, such as the window, disappears after shrinking, then this is being done by the game itself.
I am hoping that this is an issue with something in the lot file, and not with the game's inability to deal with walls at the edges of the lot.

aelflaed on having no crashes (the EDIT is wrong btw, one of the test lots is base game only).

aelflaed:

I've had a thought - knowing about the possible 7PM crash, I have been carefully saving my houses sometime before that on the first day. Maybe this is a factor? Would the lack of a save contribute to the crash?

Rascal:

I didn't save once my sims had moved in but I did enter the house in build mode prior to moving them in and altered the staircase and then saved the lot. I didn't do this the second time I got the crash though so that obviously doesn't make a difference. I will have a go at saving once sims are on the lot and see - of course I may not get a crash no matter what I do.

I should add that when I crashed the double row house it was in the same neighbourhood as the first crash (single house) but using a different sim family. So you can get the crash twice in the same neighbourhood if you use a different house. Or maybe that's because they were shrunk with different versions of the lot expander?

Mootilda:

I believe that the reason that we are associating this crash with lighting is that the only thing which obviously occurs in the game at 7PM is the change from day to night.

If anyone know of anything else which occurs at 7PM, please let us know.

Just to set people's expectations realistically: I doubt that there is anything that we can do about this crash. After all, we are using the LotExpander to attempt to get around a known limitation in the game; I am not changing anything about the way that the game handles the lot file... Unless we can narrow this down to a specific change in a specific record type within the lot package, we may just have to learn to live with the intermittent crash.

niol:

1. Plasticbox rowhouse crash mystery:
I'll divide it in the following ways here:
a. if it is caused by trimmed invisible objects in a lot, then we can go investigate the objT listing to trace for evidence esp. for time controller or something like that?, then it can be an issue for LE. Then, we may need some fix on the LE to move all the other invisible objects to a location of a lot where will stay regardless of expansion or shrinking. The safest point to store these invisible objects is the origin (0,0) coz whichever way the lot is rotated, this point will stay as always as it's the only mutual point.
b. if it's caused by the light being placed crossing the kept and the trimmed, that's obviously solvable by not doing so. Problem solved for this possiblity.
c. unmatched terrains between a lot and a neighbourhood, simply move the the lot to else where, right? Problem solved for this possiblity.
d.

If that crashing is to do with having lights on the lot before shrinking, have you tried the same lot without lights on (add the lights after shrinking) ? If the crash doesn't happen then, at least we've narrowed it down. If it can't be tracked down why it happens, at least users can be advised to get rid of lights before shrinking.

Problem solved for this possiblity.
All the other latter 3 can be solved or avoided with supposed precautions to warn makers and/or users.
Only the first possibility can be relevant enough to stay.

(the mention of lights may be with regard to a previous "blind alarm" about a street light that allegedly disappeared -- turned out that the tester had moved sims in and out, so it got removed along with the other furniture, which is normal)

plasticbox:

Quick addition regarding the 7PM crash: some (niol; Inge?) mentioned it may be related to the streetlight at the edge of the lot -- but in my game (no hacks/lighting mods), the outdoor lights are turned on at 6PM and not 7PM (yes, it's silly, was Maxis' idea not mine). It could still be that the game does something with the light at 7PM, but the point where it gets turned on is earlier than that.

Mootilda, via PM:

I don't have any intention of trying to resolve the issue by writing a hack to change the game itself (which is probably what's needed).
If anyone can narrow a crash down to a problem with a specific record within the lot package, then it becomes relevant to the LE, and possibly fixable.

Mootilda:

It would be wonderful if people could point me to an exact record type, instance, or version which was causing the crashes.

Linkdump:

R+D thread on lot resizing @ mts2 -- this is where all the action is, be warned that it's *long*
Lot Expander 1.2.7.8 "Lot Shrinker with Fence Post fix" (Mootilda) -- this is a TEST version
LotExpander thread -- current release

Row house tutorial  -- build mode issues thread
Row house uploads (Backdoor Lane 42) -- gameplay issues thread

Thread here on MATY on resizing lots -- no mention of crashes so far


Please post here with any ideas (not in the mts2 R+D thread, that one's a real challenge to keep on top of already -- we're struggling to keep the discussions readable). http://

[Doc Doofus]

Over in Peasantry, I posted a link to my own 1x1 row house for download.  It works fine for me, no crash at 7pm.

Now, some thoughts about what the problems might be for other people.

7pm DOES indicate something related to the change from daytime to night, something to do with lighting.  But could the change in lighting also be related to objects that appear outside the scope of the lot? 

I'll give you a couple of examples.

Lights.  Are there any lights on the shrunken SIDES of the house, hung from walls?  If so, then those lights are, technically, outside the lot itself.  I didn't try doing that, but it's something somebody else might reasonably try, so it's worth looking into.

Also, windows...  I have noticed something interesting about windows.  The windows that are backwards (that is, with the window sill on the outside -- you have to look very closely to notice this because I can't ever remember for the life of me which way placement arrow is supposed to point) -- the backwards windows appear just fine on my house, but the others are invisible with blank holes outlining where the window should be.  Is it possible that the frontwards/backwardsness of windows is having an effect on this?  Again, I have had no problems with my lot, and I played it for many Sim-days, and I have windows facing both directions on the shunken-side walls, but perhaps for those people experiencing problems, they could try changing that to see if that gets them past 7pm.

Another thought...  Could it be caused by having another property or row-house in an adjoining lot?  I had no adjoining properties on my lot.  Since these are advertised as row-houses, I wonder if people could be lining them up right next to each other before playing.  In that case, the change of lighting at 7pm might be related to some issue with overlapping that we didn't consider.  Try placing the troubled lots in an emptier place and see if the problem goes away.

[pbox]

Are there any lights on the shrunken SIDES of the house, hung from walls?

No.

The only thing we think *might* be related is the street light in front, because the light it sheds is partly on the deleted part of the lot. But: Almost all my normal lots have a streetlight in exactly this location, and none of them crash. Also: the only reason we think there might be a connection to lighting is the time of the crash correlating with nightfall. It's only a hypothesis -- there might be something else occurring at 7PM on the first day. Like the gypsy, who also only appears on the first day (not at 7PM though).
 

Is it possible that the frontwards/backwardsness of windows is having an effect on this?

There are no windows on the sides of any of my lots.

Could it be caused by having another property or row-house in an adjoining lot?

I was able to play with no crash, with adjoining lots. Neighbours visible, all graphics options set to High. Even if it plays a role, that can't be the only reason.

Try placing the troubled lots in an emptier place and see if the problem goes away.

I'm not interested in making the problem go away .. I want to know the reason  .

Thanks for your input -- I didn't think of mentioning the adjoining lots.

[behold_the_muse]

My game crashed while I was testing the last Backdoor Lane lot, just as described here. I moved in a CAS sim and let her greet her neighbors. I think she made them sandwiches. I'm sorry if this sounds like gibberish! I can't think of anything meaningful to attribute the crash to. Hope this helps.

[pbox]

behold_the_muse,

just to clarify: your crash did happen at 7PM, yes? (Because you mention greeting the neighbours .. in my game they appear much earlier, around noon I think)

[Doc Doofus]

Try this lot:

http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php/topic,10087.msg276925.html#msg276925

[Mootilda]

Some additional information:

I am not deleting any objects during the shrinking process.  If an object, such as the window, disappears after shrinking, then this is being done by the game itself.

I am hoping that these crashes are issues with something in the lot file, and not with the game's inability to deal with walls at the edges of the lot.

[Simsample]

I've been testing Pbox's lot on some sims. I created a clean hood and then placed several of the lot, obviously renaming them. Then I tested one with the Roseland family, one with the Ramaswamis. I added a few items to each lot and saved, then played.... nothing, no crash. Then I created a CAS sim and moved him into one of the lots... I added a few items, like a maxis stove and stereo, and then saved (without hitting play at all): the game crashed, giving me the Sims 2 exception with an 'Access Violation' error. I restarted the game, created another CAS sim, plonked her in another instance of the Pbox lot- this time I didn't add any items or save at all, I just hit play. At 6:59PM the game crashed. Again this caused a Sims 2 exception, Access violation. I reproduced this- create a CAS sim, plonk sim in clean Pbox lot, play without saving- three times in row the game crashed at 7PM or just before.

I'm attaching the exception logs, plus a config log in case it's useful- one for the crash on save (CAS sim), one for a case of 7PM crash (CAS sim). Some things that might be relevant are as follows:
1) There were other sims on the lot in all cases except the crash on save;
2) This was a clean hood: each time I played I caused a crash, therefore the hood configs haven't been successfully saved. When I boot the hood back up, the game gives me the 'greeting' pop up- 'would you like to create a holiday hood' etc., as though playing for the first time. Don't know if this is significant.
3) I have a bunch of hacks and custom content in game, and I have all EPs, SPs and the holiday packs. Fully patched to my knowledge, unless they sneaked one past me.
4) I haven't managed to recreate the crash on save.
I haven't managed to cause a crash using the Maxis created bin families, just CAS sims- but I haven't exhaustively tested this. Perhaps someone could reproduce my conditions- fresh hood, clean Pbox lot and Cas sim, no saving- to see if they could duplicate my findings? I hope this is helping on some way, I'd love to see this working!

[pbox]

Thanks simsample! The CAS sim thing might provide a clue .. I guess most people who only want to test stuff won't go and make a new sim first, that might at least explain why it crashes for some but not for others.

I played with the Randoms though, not with CAS sims, when I crashed .. but I don't remember whether I had used them before, if not they might be equivalent to CAS sims.

Rascal says "I've twice managed to move a brand new sim into a brand new lot in a brand new test neighbourhood with no crash". "Brand new" would mean "CAS" to me, so this can't be the only thing triggering a crash.

I'll see if I can try this tomorrow with CAS sim + no saving.

[Doc Doofus]

Well, you guys are making me nervous because I am not using a test neighborhood.  I plopped my new house down in the middle of Pleasantview's Downtown suburb, so I have a game with many hundreds of Sims in the Characters folder.

Still, I'll give it a shot with Backdoor Lane tonight.

My 1x1 (link several posts above) has worked fine for me.  Many saves, no crashes, many Sims days played.  The Sim I moved in for its inauguration was a freshly made CAS-created Sim.  She has also made a few trips to community lots without problem.

My earlier suggestion about trying it again in a lot with no neighboring lots on both sides... I wasn't suggesting just making the problem "go away" without understanding it.  I'm just trying to help isolate the problem.  Find out IF it goes away when you leave empty space on the sides (and make sure the empty space is FLAT).  If it does go away, that's useful information to help identify the real culprit. 

[Doc Doofus]

Link address for my 1x1 row house lot:
http://webpages.charter.net/ronunderwood/1X1furnished-a.Sims2Pack

[Doc Doofus]

Ok, I tried Backdoor Lane 42.  It crashed at 7pm,  right on time.  I saved several times without any problem, though.  The last save was at 6:54pm.

I'm going to try re-extending the lot and see if that fixes anything.

One other thing I noticed -- there are TWO garbage cans.  Is that deliberate? 

[Inge]

None of the lots I have shrunk are crashing.   I have tried shrinking them with lights on and without lights on.

Would anyone with a crashing pbox lot like to try one of mine and see if they can make it crash?  Meanwhile perhaps I should see if I can make a pbox lot crash.

[Doc Doofus]

Inge, mine above didn't crash either.  But this Backdoor 42 lot does crash at 7pm.

I just now tried using LE to extend Backdoor  42 back to 3x3 and trying again.  It worked.  It's 7:05 now.  Saved and quit.  I think I'll try re-shrinking it (in it's past 7pm state) and seeing if I can make it to morning or day 2, eh?

[Rascal]

I'll try one of your lots Inge - where can I find them?

2) This was a clean hood: each time I played I caused a crash, therefore the hood configs haven't been successfully saved. When I boot the hood back up, the game gives me the 'greeting' pop up- 'would you like to create a holiday hood' etc., as though playing for the first time. Don't know if this is significant.

...

I haven't managed to cause a crash using the Maxis created bin families, just CAS sims- but I haven't exhaustively tested this. Perhaps someone could reproduce my conditions- fresh hood, clean Pbox lot and Cas sim, no saving- to see if they could duplicate my findings? I hope this is helping on some way, I'd love to see this working!

I have had a crash in an existing neighbourhood.  A fairly new neighbourhood admittedly, with no subhoods attached, but it had been played before.

I have also only had crashes with new CAS sims.  Moving an existing sim into the house has never caused a crash yet.  However, as Plasticbox pointed out, I have had lots that don't crash with a CAS sim so either this isn't the only trigger, or its a trigger that doesn't always work.

In other news, I shrunk a 3x2 empty lot down to 1x2, placed in the lot bin then moved it into various neighbourhoods and moved in sims to see if any would crash.  Out of 7 tests none have crashed.  I tried the lots on their own, sandwiched between two row houses and sandwiched between two other empty shrunk lots.  I have no idea whether or not this is significant but it could possibly point to the problem being walls on the boundries rather than the shrinking of the lot itself.

Of course it could mean nothing at all ... apart from the 7pm-ish time slot nothing is particularly consistant about these crashes.

I really hope walls on the boundry aren't the problem - its kind of the whole point!

[Inge]

Rascal, I have uploaded it here: http://simlogical.com/slforum/index.php?topic=916.0

You should not need to register in order to download it - let me know if you have any difficulty.

[Doc Doofus]

Okay, here's the deal.

I saved the game at about 6:50pm.  Restarted it and it crashed.  (As reported earlier).

Now, I EXPANDED the lot (still occupied) using LE, making it larger.  Resumed the game at 6:50.  It made it past 7 just fine!   Saved it.

Next, I RE-SHRUNK the lot (still occupied) using LE, making it it's original small size, 1x2.  Resumed the game at it's past 7pm nighttime state.  Worked fine.  I played several more days with it.  Nighttime and daytime passed, and it did not crash again.

So what conclusions can be drawn? 

1. Is it possible that the PACKAGE itself was damaged by the export packaging process, but repaired when I re-expanded and re-shrunk?

2. Is it possible that the problem is only with the very first 7pm event, that something special happens with new Sims or new lots the first time nighttime occurs?  Something special that conflicts with shrunken lots?  (I have a weird suspicion it could be related to property depreciation.)


If it's (1), above, then that might explain why most of us have had no problems with our OWN shrunken lots we created, but others do.  The export packaging process may not work perfectly with shrunken lots.

Possible solutions (that suggest tests):

If (1) is the case, then it should still be possible to manually package and install lots without using the export package process.

If (2) is the case, then it might fix things to play the lot past 7pm, use the move-out-stayer-shrub, move Sims out, then package it.

[behold_the_muse]

Oh, yes, my lot crashed at 7. I mention the neighbors because that's all she did all day. I haven't tried again yet, since I was in a bit of shock when the game crashed! Believe it or not that was my first time.

[Simsample]

Pbox, I downloaded and tested two of your other resized lots- 'Row House 1' and 'Row House 3'. I removed all of my custom content and hacks this time. Again, I was consistently able to make the lot crash at 7PM using CAS sims- but using the Maxis bin sims or even townies, there was no crash. I also created a CAS sim and made the game crash with her:

Then restarted the game immediately, and replayed the lot under the same conditions:

No crash, it played fine. It seems that the auto save on move in affects this somehow. Then I downloaded Inge's lot from Simlogical, and tested that with a freshly created CAS sim. I had to add items (bathroom, kitchen etc) but I couldn't make the game crash. I tested Inge's lot with five different CAS sims and a Maxis bin sim, but still no crash. I even tested several lots in different orientations- as I did wonder whether the shadow rendering or maybe impostor rendering was causing issues. However, I could find no correlation between location and direction- North, south, east or west facing- and adjoining lots (or lack of adjoining lots) with crashing. The only constant seems to be that the three PBox lots crash at 7PM when played unsaved with CAS sims. I attached the exception log from the crash in the first image.

[Zazazu]

1. Is it possible that the PACKAGE itself was damaged by the export packaging process, but repaired when I re-expanded and re-shrunk?

2. Is it possible that the problem is only with the very first 7pm event, that something special happens with new Sims or new lots the first time nighttime occurs?  Something special that conflicts with shrunken lots?  (I have a weird suspicion it could be related to property depreciation.)


If it's (1), above, then that might explain why most of us have had no problems with our OWN shrunken lots we created, but others do.  The export packaging process may not work perfectly with shrunken lots.

But, still then all of us who play the shared shrunken lots should be having the same problem. And the same people are not having the issue every time.

Could it possibly have to do with furnishings? I stripped the place entirely and changed basically everything but the walls. I had no crashes on this one (tested by decendants of QC) or on a 2x1 I made myself (tested by CAS sims). I have an ATI Radeon x600, playing everything on the highest levels except for view distance, which is at medium.

And Doc Doofus, I can't get your lot from that link. I get an error page:

The XML page cannot be displayed
Cannot view XML input using style sheet. Please correct the error and then click the Refresh button, or try again later.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An invalid character was found in text content. Error processing resource 'http://webpages.charter.net/ronunderwood/1X1furn...

Sims2 Packager 1.0

[pbox]

Simsample,

thanks so much for your efforts. One more thing you could test (since you seem to be able to get the crashes more or less consistently): I'm going to reupload the Backdoor Lane lot without the street light in front on the Backdoor Lane thread -- niol suspects that the street light is the culprit, "I really tend to think it's the light that should not be placed over to the trimmed region coz this may affect the lighting data", quoted from the R+D thread -- if this is so, the version without light should not crash, not even with a CAS sim. I have no idea, myself, what the connection would be between light maps and CAS sims, but as long as it's solved that way we'd at least know what to avoid.

ETA: Backdoor Lane 42a (no street light) available here. From that post:

Here is a reupload of the lot in the OP, without the street light in front. Everything else is the same (except that I moved the shrub in the backyard a bit to get rid of the embarassing leaves poking through the wall). This light had been added in the original lot *before* shrinking. I opened the original lot (the one I had packaged and uploaded here), removed the light, put the lot in the bin and back, packaged it.

Tested once with a CAS sim in a previously unplayed neighbourhood, no crash at 7PM. If anyone who does crash with the lot in the OP could test this to see whether it crashes as well, perhaps we can shed some light on the light issue.

Forgot to mention: I did not save while testing.


Zazazu,

you say you "stripped the place entirely" -- do you recall, by any chance, whether you removed the street light as well?


DocDoofus and Inge,

what EPs do your lots need? I don't have all of them, so I have no idea whether I can test those or not.


DocDoofus,

1. Is it possible that the PACKAGE itself was damaged by the export packaging process, but repaired when I re-expanded and re-shrunk?

Yes, obviously, that's a possibility. The whole thing only happens on shrunk lots.

2. Is it possible that the problem is only with the very first 7pm event

This is a known fact. Crashes only ever happen on the first day. As far as I'm aware, depreciation is at midnight.

The export packaging process may not work perfectly with shrunken lots.

I crashed with my own lot myself. Without having packaged it. I had, however, moved it in the bin and back.

there are TWO garbage cans.  Is that deliberate?

Yes. I almost always do that, hasn't caused any issues so far that I'm aware of.


Rascal, behold_the_muse,

thanks for your input =)


All,

If it turns out that this is all just because of that stupid streetlight I put there, I'm going to be *very* *very* embarrassed. 


Also, there's a shrunk lot by aelflaed now up @ mts2 that you can use for testing (base game only).

[Inge]

Well I shrunk a lot with the streetlamp on the corner (what was the corner after shrinking) and my lot didn't crash when I played it, so I would be surprised if that was the main factor.

I have all EPs installed, by the way and the lot at simlogical will probably need at least BV, not sure if it also needs the intermediate ones.

[pbox]

Inge,

to clarify: you put the light there *first* and *then* shrunk the lot, or the other way around? (on your non-crashing lot) Going though my old screenshots I can see that I put the light in *before* shrinking in the Backdoor Lane lot .. about the other ones I can't tell for sure, right now.

Ah, shame, I can't test your lot then. No BV here. Will give aelflaed's a try.

[Inge]

I shrunk a lot *with* the streetlamp on the corner - literally.  Yes it was there before the shrink.

[pbox]

If you're looking for up-to-date info, please take this post with a spoonful of salt -- check the last page of this thread first. I can't keep up with updates. Sorry.


Update: I just tested Backdoor Lane 42 against Backdoor Lane 42a. 42a is the version without street light, see above. Result:

Backdoor Lane 42a (no light): Plunked down in previously unplayed hood, made CAS sim, moved her in, played until 19:15 without saving, no crash. Exited without saving.
Backdoor Lane 42 (with light): Plunked down in the same hood, made another CAS sim, moved her in, played without saving: crash at 19:01.

Can anyone confirm this? -- Disproved by simsample, the light-less lot still crashes. Not significant. Also, see below (Inge's lot).


Gah. To me this looks very much like my stupid light is the culprit. How embarassing. I owe you all a *major* favour if this turns out to be true. Edit -- see Inge's post above: "I shrunk a lot with the streetlamp on the corner (what was the corner after shrinking) and my lot didn't crash when I played it, so I would be surprised if that was the main factor" .. yes I agree, street lights on the lot edge can't be the *only* thing then that leads to a crash. Maybe something like street lights in conjunction with CAS sims, not saving, EPs used, moon phase, ..)




-----------------------
Rehash -- possible differences between scenarios that crash and those that don't:
-----------------------


Time of the crash:

* Always 7PM in-game, with no exceptions.
* "I tried changing to night view in buildmode pretty much as soon as the lot loaded.  It crashed straight away.  For me at least this proves it has something to do with the change of lighting from day to night." (Rascal)

Day->Night change seems to play a role.


EPs used when building:

* Backdoor Lane 42 and Row House 01 have been built/packaged with Base+NL -- 7PM crash
* Row House 03 has been built/packaged with Base only -- 7PM crash
* aelflaed's lot is Base only -- 7PM crash
* Inge's lot is up to BV -- no crashes reported so far.

Rascal points out: "What I wondered about, and what I think Simsample was getting at, was that the lots made in a game with BV (ie Inge, DocDoofus) don't seem to crash, whereas lots made in a game without BV (yours and aelflaed's) do"

Good question. This may play a role.


EPs used during gameplay:

* I tested in NL only most of the time. All my crashes occurred in NL only.
* "As far as I can tell nobody with BV has had a crash. Simsample and I only have up to Seasons."  (Rascal @ mts2)

Not sure how significant this is -- needs doublechecking against non-crashing users (do they *all* have BV?)


CAS sims vs. townies/premade sims:

* "I was consistently able to make the lot crash at 7PM using CAS sims- but using the Maxis bin sims or even townies, there was no crash" (simsample, a few posts up) -- tested with all of my lots.
* "I have also only had crashes with new CAS sims.  Moving an existing sim into the house has never caused a crash yet.  However, (..) I have had lots that don't crash with a CAS sim so either this isn't the only trigger" (Rascal, this thread)

This seems to be a consistent factor.


First vs. replay:

* (After a crash in one of my lots, using a CAS sim): "restarted the game immediately, and replayed the lot under the same conditions: No crash, it played fine. It seems that the auto save on move in affects this somehow."  (simsample, a few posts up)

This has been confirmed by others too: in the event of a crash, there was never a crash on replay. Seems consistent.


Stuff on the lot:

* "I shrunk a 3x2 empty lot down to 1x2, placed in the lot bin then moved it into various neighbourhoods and moved in sims to see if any would crash.  Out of 7 tests none have crashed." (Rascal, this thread)

The fact that only my lots have been crashing so far would seem to indicate there's something with the lots that I do differently from others. I mean, it can't be bad karma? nevermind. This lot (aelflaed) is crashing as well.


Street light at lot edge:

* All of my lots have a street light at the leftmost frontmost tile (seen from the street)
* Backdoor Lane 42 (with light) has been crashing, 42a (no light) has been not crashing. Only one test so far (by me), disproved by simsample (both lots crash).
* Inge's lot also contains a street light (same model) in the exact same location and has not been crashing so far.
* Aelflaed's lot has a different kind of street light (outdoor floor lights) and does crash.

No apparent significance (not on its own at least -- may still be a contributing factor).


Other possible culprits (objects on the lot, building methods):

* Driveways: There is a rotated driveway extension in the Backdoor Lane lot and two regular (moveobjectsed) driveway extensions in Row House 01. Row House 03, being Base only, does not have driveways. No correlation.

* Basement: Backdoor Lane 42 / 42a and Row House 03 have a basement. Aelflaed's lot does not, Row House 01 does not. No correlation.

* Foundation: All of my lots are built on a foundation, all of them crash. Aelflaed's and Inge's are not, no crashes yet. Zazazu's lots are on a foundation if I see it correctly in the screenshots .. no crashes yet, but it's the newest lot posted I think, so maybe there's an emphasis needed on *yet* in this case?

* Mailbox/trashcan moved off their original position: "Inge's lot (which did not crash for me) has the mailbox and trashcan moved just as Pbox's lots (which did crash) do..."  (simsample) -- no correlation.

* Second trashcan: There are one or more extra trashcans on all of the affected lots (from frillen's "229 in-game objects" collections @ mts2 -- this is the actual in-game can, not a decorative clone). The cans are nowhere near the lot border. There are extra trashcans on almost all of my Backdoor Lane lots + some others, no crashes have ever been reported. Maybe it's the combination of extra can(s) + shrinking that's poisonous? Sounds a bit far-fetched (what would the game do with trash at 7PM?), but who knows. I know that there must be *some* point in time at which the game decides whether the outdoor trashcan is full or empty (sometimes it can be salvaged, sometimes not), but I don't know what time that is. 7PM is as likely as any other time, for all I know.


Used vs. new neighbourhoods:

* Most crashes have been reported from previously unused neighbourhoods (I think this could be just because people -- reasonably -- use (new) test hoods for testing?)
* "I have had a crash in an existing neighbourhood". (Rascal, this thread)

Not consistent.


Saving during gameplay:

* "I saved the game at about 6:50pm.  Restarted it and it crashed." (DocDoofus in this thread)
* "I tried Backdoor Lane 42.  It crashed at 7pm, right on time.  I saved several times without any problem, though.  The last save was at 6:54pm." (DocDoofus in this thread)
* Others have reported that they had not saved (I didn't, either)

Does not seem to play a role.


Lot orientation, adjoining lots:

* No significance found so far


Packaging/installing

* I don't package/install my own lots, and I had crashes. Sometimes.
* Everybody else obviously has to install my lots somehow -- some people crash and some don't.

No correlation.


Please let me know if you have any other ideas or if I overlooked anything. I'll try to keep this up to date. (I'll be here much less often during the week but I'll try)