HUZZAH! Banned from Rentech.com!

[Kitiara]

Personally, I like the way it is now. I really liked MTS2 when I first found it. After a while all things I actually wanted to dl were links to various. OK. No big deal. Switched forums. Was happier anyway.
Then <poof>!
All the stuff I like moved again. No big deal. I followed it. Like this move even better.

This is now my forum of choice, easily more awesome than them. It has great potential. Should be harder for Pescado to piss off the management, and he has the ability to ban any idiots that wander in, if he chooses to burninate.

I've been mostly a lurker, but a regular and faithful one. Pescado, you keep my game from imploding. I'll follow you anywhere, even if you go insane and kick yourself out of here.

Feel free to ridicule my simpering mushy sentimentality.

[garyalex]

From my personal experience banning somebody is a bad idea, going with the whole free speech idea (speech is free and you generally get what you pay for). If idiots and morons enjoy posting inane comments, they shouldn't be banned, they should be made fun of ... they will go away eventually. If intelligent people want to make valid points and criticise something, that is their right, let them do so, it only reflects badly on your own maturity for censoring intelligent criticism/complaints/suggestions etc.

You can tell its all going south when you get something like "Well if you don't like the way its run, then go somewhere else!"

But after all that ...fighting is fun though, but its frustrating to have a battle of wits with unarmed people

[Inge]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, Rentechd and Pescado have completely different concepts of how a site should be run and should never have become co-admins.  Never.

I think it's sad that it happened, that it went wrong, and there's no point in anyone openly taking sides and keeping the wounds open; just like with a divorce, the involved parties have to adjust to it in their own ways.

[J. M. Pescado]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, Rentechd and Pescado have completely different concepts of how a site should be run and should never have become co-admins.  Never.

Yes, yes, your Ingelogical viewpoint is that everyone should have their own seperate site, we know. To some extent, you may have a point, but I think it's more a question of the site you end up than anything else.

I think it's sad that it happened, that it went wrong, and there's no point in anyone openly taking sides and keeping the wounds open; just like with a divorce, the involved parties have to adjust to it in their own ways.

Aww, but what would be the fun in that? Besides, divorces are a green memory when the parties involved hate each other. If you make sure they hate each other first, the divorce is a nice happy green memory and there's much less crying and whining about it.

Besides, have you heard the latest blurb? Apparently, I have it on good authority that "conveniently" around this time, a number of unidentified parties apparently attempted to "hack" the site. Mind you, this is conveniently after the *FIRST* "hacker scare", which we all could tell was obviously a dig at my possession of a database backup. Frankly, this new one is simply insulting. "Unsuccessful hack attack"? Pssh. Do I look like somebody who FAILS?!? I assure you, if I were going to make a hack attempt, it would be SUCCESSFUL!

[Inge]

Yes, yes, your Ingelogical viewpoint is that everyone should have their own seperate site, we know. To some extent, you may have a point, but I think it's more a question of the site you end up than anything else.

However, I didn't say *no one* should be co-admins; I said *you two* should never have been co-admins.  There's more than a subtle difference between those two statements.

My preference for many small sites rather than one or two huge ones does not go as far as saying each site should only have one creator associated with it!  Groups of two or three are great, as are the occasional large site as long as they don't approach monopoly status.  I use and support large sites such as TSR and MTS2, as well as mid-sized sites such as VS

[J. M. Pescado]

However, I didn't say *no one* should be co-admins; I said *you two* should never have been co-admins.  There's more than a subtle difference between those two statements.

Well, that is sort of the conclusion I came to. Rentech wasn't exactly pleased about this decision, for no particularly sane reason, and has now taken to blaming me for every real or imagined thing that is wrong with her site.

[veilchen]

Although I am glad that you finally have your own site, it's sad that you and Rentech's relationship has deteriorated like this. I did see it coming though, quite a while before it happened and downloaded the director's cut, just in case it would take you longer to set up shop elsewhere than it actually did. I am hoping that you and TJ can get together and align you mods, so to speak. I like you both and I would hate to see that your mods suddenly became incompatible.

Both, you and Rentech,  had a widely different opinion on how a site should be run, that was a dead give-away.
As I pointed out, I have an intense dislike of censorship, but I do like civilized discussion about issues at hand. Being told to take it or leave it will usually result in my "leaving it".

I dislike moderators who think they are the extended arm of whatever God they believe in, and treat people as if they are "dreck" (that's the german word for dirt, I wouldn't want to be chastised for using a foreign word, heaven forbid, I just like the german word better it has more force ) That is one of the major reasons I have never posted in MTS2's "social" forums, and I most likely never will. The moderators whose opinion I respect at this site are no more than a handful, the others seem to have delusions of grandeur.

The fact that someone gets so stuck on their own opinion and decision without even considering any alternative is sad. Digging in one's heels and not listening to reason is not a good thing, and letting oneself be influenced by a few to the detriment of the many is something that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Although I don't pay attention to post-counts and such, I do read everything, and the much lower count I have on VS now certainly caught my eye. It seems that all the posts I did in JM's forum got subtracted, and that was a sign of worse things to come to pass. You know the ancient egyptian custom of wiping out all memory of a person by wiping out all things that this person ever did, along with their name. A harsh punishment in those days, since it barred the way to heaven forever.

I have to agree with garyalex, although a battle of wits is fun, but it is not fun to battle with an unarmed person.

G.

[J. M. Pescado]

Although I am glad that you finally have your own site, it's sad that you and Rentech's relationship has deteriorated like this. I did see it coming though, quite a while before it happened and downloaded the director's cut, just in case it would take you longer to set up shop elsewhere than it actually did. I am hoping that you and TJ can get together and align you mods, so to speak. I like you both and I would hate to see that your mods suddenly became incompatible.

I suspect that this is the reason why Rentech has now banned me from the site: To prevent my consulting with him and participating in his forums. Since that would just mean the site becomes the "Twojeffs Forums", instead of the "Pecado Forums" (sic). Unfortunately, as a result, our original plans to compile a single definitive "Critical Fix Patch" are currently on hold until the fallout settles. Since I have it on good authority that Rentech holds even completely pointless and irrational grudges forever, that would mean that Jeffy would probably have to defect to someplace not run by Rentech.

I dislike moderators who think they are the extended arm of whatever God they believe in, and treat people as if they are "dreck" (that's the german word for dirt, I wouldn't want to be chastised for using a foreign word, heaven forbid, I just like the german word better it has more force ) That is one of the major reasons I have never posted in MTS2's "social" forums, and I most likely never will. The moderators whose opinion I respect at this site are no more than a handful, the others seem to have delusions of grandeur.

By "this site", you mean MTS2, or here? Because if you're talking about here, so far, I'm the only moderator, not that I ever really do any moderation, it's really more like filing, and I don't have DELUSIONS of grandeur, I really *AM* that awesome! Everyone who isn't Rentech knows THAT. Right?

The fact that someone gets so stuck on their own opinion and decision without even considering any alternative is sad. Digging in one's heels and not listening to reason is not a good thing, and letting oneself be influenced by a few to the detriment of the many is something that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Well, I'm pretty fond of my own decisions and opinions also. I also happen to be fond of arguments. If you can convince me you have a better solution, well, then, why, that's an excellent idea! I'm glad I thought of it!

Although I don't pay attention to post-counts and such, I do read everything, and the much lower count I have on VS now certainly caught my eye. It seems that all the posts I did in JM's forum got subtracted, and that was a sign of worse things to come to pass. You know the ancient egyptian custom of wiping out all memory of a person by wiping out all things that this person ever did, along with their name. A harsh punishment in those days, since it barred the way to heaven forever.

As much as I'd like to approve of some anti-Rentech sentiment, I must clarify that Rentech is not responsible for the total annihilation of the Pescado forums. That was my doing. They had to be deleted somehow, after all, and I certainly wasn't going to leave an important task like that to Rentech.

Rentech, of course, has gone a step further, by banning me the forum entirely, apparently under the guise of "unsuccessful hacking attempts". Frankly, I'm insulted. UNSUCCESSFUL? I assure you if I had MADE a hacking attempt, Rentech's site would be a pile of smoking rubble.

[veilchen]

Of course I meant MTS2. I am fully aware of your awesomeness, and I completely agree on the last point. My respect in your abilities is such that the word "attempt" does not even get associated with your name, at least not in my mind

However, when the thing with Sophie's avatar started and then kept on deteriorating, including the sudden eruption of jealousy, I knew we would soon see JM with his own site.

G.

[reggikko]

Both, you and Rentech,  had a widely different opinion on how a site should be run, that was a dead give-away.
As I pointed out, I have an intense dislike of censorship, but I do like civilized discussion about issues at hand. Being told to take it or leave it will usually result in my "leaving it".

Exactly my feeling. The modders are great. Being able to download things is fantastic. BUT, it's the community that makes or breaks a site. If people bring up a valid concern, and do it in a mature and civilized manner, it's not good business sense to tell your customers they can like it or not, that you don't care either way. That comment *really* rubbed me the wrong way. In my real life I often talk like a sailor when in close company, but I am mature enough to understand the concept of decorum. And if the avatar truly had been "adult content", I would have said, fair enough. But the fact that it wasn't and then rentech wouldn't even give a reasonable explanation as to why she removed it, well, I just can't stomach that sort of heavy handedness or that attitude.

[reggikko]

I suspect that this is the reason why Rentech has now banned me from the site: To prevent my consulting with him and participating in his forums. Since that would just mean the site becomes the "Twojeffs Forums", instead of the "Pecado Forums" (sic). Unfortunately, as a result, our original plans to compile a single definitive "Critical Fix Patch" are currently on hold until the fallout settles. Since I have it on good authority that Rentech holds even completely pointless and irrational grudges forever, that would mean that Jeffy would probably have to defect to someplace not run by Rentech.

Ooh, ooh, I know just the place! 

[veilchen]

Exactly, I agree with you and with Motoki on that point. If you want a site for downloads only, don't put forums up. If a thread deteriorates into name-calling and other idiotic actions, by all means, lock it, but don't shrug of people with valid points, issues,and concerns. The thing with the avatar disturbed me very much the minute it started, especially since it had nothing even remotely obscene in it. It left things to the imagination, and unfortunately those very few with the "dirtiest" imagination beat RenTech into submission. (I put dirty in quotation marks because I don't find sensuality or sexuality dirty in the least)

So now I'm doing what you are doing. I posted a few times, mainly to ask other posters some questions, but I mainly just browse through TJ's and Carrigon's forums and then leave. You are right, that is after all what RenTech wanted, no?

G.

[J. M. Pescado]

Speaking of Motoki, where is Motoki, anyway? He might like it here, you know, with the lack of hysterically histrionic people in the chain of command, combined with the glaring lack of Rentechs, which I know he doesn't like very much. And I haven't kicked him in awhile.

Ooh, ooh, I know just the place! 

Well, you're welcome to make the suggestion. I certainly can't, I seem to be banned at the moment, and rerouting through Vietnam = 5 minute lags.

[Oddysey]

I like this forum better than variousimmers, mostly because I like it when the administrator(s) of the site are very involved with the community. It might have been because of the threads I read, but I never got that impression on VS. Same thing with MTS2, although the main reason there is that it's just too big. Here, JMPescado is a visible presence everywhere on the site. Which I think is a good thing, although that may just be because I'm crazy.

Twojeffs needs to come over here, or something. He and JMPescado seem to work well togethor, and there's no point in them duplicating each others work. I'm drifting into incoherency here.

[Brynne]

Speaking of Motoki, where is Motoki, anyway? He might like it here, you know, with the lack of hysterically histrionic people in the chain of command, combined with the glaring lack of Rentechs, which I know he doesn't like very much. And I haven't kicked him in awhile.

Last time I saw Motoki was in the "f***ing MTS2" (or however Rentech edited the subject) thread. He got the "if you don't like it here go someplace else" response and that's exactly what he did. Hopefully the peeing nanny will mysteriously appear on this site someday.   

[veilchen]

Posted by: Brynne
Last time I saw Motoki was in the "f***ing MTS2" (or however Rentech edited the subject) thread. He got the "if you don't like it here go someplace else" response and that's exactly what he did. Hopefully the peeing nanny will mysteriously appear on this site someday.

Yeah, that's the last time I heard of him too. Poor Motoki, he can't seem to catch a break, or a reasonable person, whichever comes first. I'm hoping that he'll catch on to this forum sooner or later (hopefully sooner). Discussions are so much more fun when he is involved, he has a tendency to keep things hopping

Mike, if you can read that, post something. No E's or K's here, nor R's or D's (you know what I mean, I'm not spelling it out )

G.

[reggikko]

Well, you're welcome to make the suggestion. I certainly can't, I seem to be banned at the moment, and rerouting through Vietnam = 5 minute lags.

Shall I just say you request a communication and direct him here?

[veilchen]

Posted by: J. M. Pescado
Well, you're welcome to make the suggestion. I certainly can't, I seem to be banned at the moment, and rerouting through Vietnam = 5 minute lags.

I don't want to give any silly advice, but TJ is on the member list here; I hope that will not get him into trouble (I know there is quite likely more than one Jeff, I'm using the singular out of habit).

G.

[J. M. Pescado]

He's here, yes. Dunno how frequent of a visitor, though.

[Inge]

I am sure Jeff, like most responsible Sims modders, will continue to try wherever possible to make his hacks fit in with whatever else there is out there in the community, regardless of what site they are hosted on.  However, it's not always practical to make a mod that is compatible, and I would rather the incompatible mods were occasionally made in order to allow players a choice rather than that there should be some sort of syndicate to suppress those which might clash - or only make those which will not.   Again, responsible modders will always be happy to advise on compatibility and help players sort out conflicts.

[veilchen]

I am sure Jeff, like most responsible Sims modders, will continue to try wherever possible to make his hacks fit in with whatever else there is out there in the community, regardless of what site they are hosted on.  However, it's not always practical to make a mod that is compatible, and I would rather the incompatible mods were occasionally made in order to allow players a choice rather than that there should be some sort of syndicate to suppress those which might clash - or only make those which will not.   Again, responsible modders will always be happy to advise on compatibility and help players sort out conflicts.

If it's the same question or problem that needs fixing and you have several fixes to choose from, then non-compatibility is not an issue. Nor is it an issue when you want to install items that ease gameplay or enhance it. But if you have two problems and two fixes that clash, you are forced to choose which problem you want to remain and which one you want to fix.

The reason I only have four modders that I trust, is that they usually work together, or help the users along if issues arise (and one of them happens to be you, Inge). As a person who is completely dependent on others when it comes to game fixes, I certainly hope that the communication stays intact.

G.

[Hook]

Anyone who is unwise enough to make a mod that conflicts with one of Pescado's isn't wise enough to make a mod I'll allow on my computer.  And as far as "syndicates" go, the various Standards Agencies exist for a damned good reason.

Considering Pescaso is the most prolific writer of useful mods, if I had to get rid of his mods or someone else's, guess which ones would go to the bit bucket?  Hint:  it wouldn't be Pescado's mods.

Anyone out there is free to write anything they choose.  Just as I'm free to ignore their stuff.  If I were to suddenly start writing mods, I'd make damned sure they were compatible with the premier mod writer's stuff.  And if he produced a mod that wan't compatible with one of mine, I'd change mine.  Right now, and for the forseeable future, that premier mod writer is Pescado.  Other modders may do as they wish.

Hook

[veilchen]

Anyone who is unwise enough to make a mod that conflicts with one of Pescado's isn't wise enough to make a mod I'll allow on my computer.  And as far as "syndicates" go, the various Standards Agencies exist for a damned good reason.

Considering Pescaso is the most prolific writer of useful mods, if I had to get rid of his mods or someone else's, guess which ones would go to the bit bucket?  Hint:  it wouldn't be Pescado's mods.

Anyone out there is free to write anything they choose.  Just as I'm free to ignore their stuff.  If I were to suddenly start writing mods, I'd make damned sure they were compatible with the premier mod writer's stuff.  And if he produced a mod that wan't compatible with one of mine, I'd change mine.  Right now, and for the forseeable future, that premier mod writer is Pescado.  Other modders may do as they wish.

Hook

That says it much more concisely than my post. If it is a question of choice, anyone who values their game will prefer the outstanding over the merely great. Why else would I be following JM around since the early days of MTS2? If everybody else disappeared tomorrow and only JM remained, I would not panic, and the majority of sim-players who use fixes feel the same. That is appearantly the premier (or is it prime?)  reason for the conflicts that seem to arise everywhere JM goes.

I didn't see it coming on MTS2, but I saw it coming on VS. Let me put it into another view: I am great at my job, but my mentor is outstanding. I neither begrudge her this position, nor do I envy her. I hope I can emulate her to a comparable point, but I know who is the student and who is the master(I know master is a male designation, but mistress doesn't sound right). That is the way it should be in all areas, including software and software enhancement.

However, as I said before, if I have two problems and one fix each for each problem, and the fixes clash, I would be in the unenvyable position to choose which problem would be the least one, and which one to fix. That was a general reply to a general statement. If JM's was one of the two fixes, it wouldn't be a question of choice, and that is a specific relpy to a specific statement.

Aside from all that, I would really like to see a conjoined 'director's cut' from JM and TJ. It's bound to be a gem, I like TJ, and I like many of his mods.

G.

[twojeffs]

I don't want to give any silly advice, but TJ is on the member list here; I hope that will not get him into trouble (I know there is quite likely more than one Jeff, I'm using the singular out of habit).

G.

Yep, I'm a member here and plan to continue to be. There's no reason that I shouldn't be able to go/post/chat where ever I feel like. I do plan to keep my work posted at VS for now, but I hope that JM & I can continue to work together. I've always tried to keep my mods compatible with everyone else's work whenever I can. My feeling (and my hope) is that this will all blow over eventually instead of blowing up worse than it is, but that's up to the people involved, not me.

I have to agree with Inge, it was probably not a good idea for Rentech and Pescado to co-admin a site. They have completely different styles of admin and are both bull-headed and don't give up on their position easily (if ever). This is not a bad thing, I can be pretty stubborn myself, but it was bound to eventually cause a split. I personally have never had a problem with either one of them so I'm not taking sides on this at all. I really don't have all the facts and don't know everything that's been said and done to do so.

[J. M. Pescado]

My feeling (and my hope) is that this will all blow over eventually instead of blowing up worse than it is, but that's up to the people involved, not me.

Well, I'm willing to talk anytime Rentech is, but according to Delphy, Rentech tends to hold irrational grudges forever and ever. Now, I was perfectly willing to continue participating there, just as I've continued to maintain a presence on MTS2, but Rentech, obviously, considers this unacceptable, a level of extremism even MTS2 never went to.

I have to agree with Inge, it was probably not a good idea for Rentech and Pescado to co-admin a site. They have completely different styles of admin and are both bull-headed and don't give up on their position easily (if ever). This is not a bad thing, I can be pretty stubborn myself, but it was bound to eventually cause a split.

Well, I was willing to part company peacefully once this became inevitable, but Rentech is hellbent on being the martyr. You'll note the apparent rise in "hacker attacks" ever since I left. Most of these, like "Tearing A Page", apparently were entirely made up by Rentech.