Is it Just Me, or is this Community Stingy About Sharing?

[Inge]

Wes, I had another thought about your tool proposition at the PJSE forum, if you want to give it some thought.

[wes_h]

I looked there this AM. Will cruise on over soon.
<* Wes *>

[jfade]

Personally I'd love to see a centralized archive of some form, maybe in a wiki format. But I don't know how much cooperation you're going to see community-wide, between the drama queens who don't get along with anyone and the "I'm-too-busy-creating-incredible-stuff-to-answer-your-pitiful-questions" crowd...

This too is what I want to see, but my question is still "should it be at the MTS2 Wiki or elsewhere?" While I know that the sims2wiki is open to everyone to edit, I personally don't see a lot of contributions made to it (yes, I've contributed some and plan on doing more) but still, in general, there seems to be little info being added/updated.

Note that I'm not trying to say anything bad about MTS2 or the sims2wiki, but still, it seems to be a general observation, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. And if there is a general consensus that there's no need for a new location, what can be done to encourage people to edit the existing wiki?

Part of the problem is the explosion of MTS2. In the beginning, MTS2 was more modding-centric and such techniques were discussed more frequently. When MTS2 became overrun by people who weren't pushing the frontiers of creation, most of the pioneers headed elsewhere. As MTS2 was no longer really a suitable environment to discuss technical issues without being swamped in clueless people trying to enter above their area of understanding, these discussions stopped happening.

I agree partially with this. There do still seem to be some discussions going on, but nowhere near the level that was there before. Plus, at this point, it seems to all be from the same people. Then again, I may be looking in the wrong place or something, who knows.

Well, for the most part, very few people take an interest in file formats. Those few remaining people have either scattered to the winds, or have some vested interest in keeping SimPE as a monopoly on editing. Nobody has seriously expressed an interest in breaking the back of that monopoly before now.

All the more reason for a movement to get this info more publicly available now.

There *SHOULD* be more exchange of information, but the problem is, there's no singular way to achieve this. Every attempt to do so tends to become enmired in politics, especially when the people who tend to start such efforts are not the people who actually have any real interest in the pursuing the matter.

I agree that the politics is a major problem, and while there may be no set way to completely avoid such politics, there have to be some ways to reduce the amount of them that goes on. At least, I would think that if a completely neutral place was started that such a thing could happen.

Speaking of formats, how is Lua related to Sims?  Is it the sourcecode for the package format or something?

So far as I know it's just like another type of thing used by the game for certain behaviors and whatnot. Specifically, I believe it's used in areas that Simantics (normal BHAVs) CAN'T be used. I don't know that there's a lot of documentation on it though, but I have seem SOMETHING about it on MTS2 in the forums. I'll have to track that down again.

The lack of decent info is intentional. There has always been a deliberate effort by Maxis and EA to prevent modding. They no longer actively pursue modders, but they don't encourage modders either. There are several reasons, but the main ones are:

1) Internals for Sims are horrible, arbitrary and unsightly. They don't want people to know what bad code designers they are.
2) Freedom to modify your game scares people in high places (i.e. people who don't realize that Jack Thompson is an idiot who lies for a living).
3) Modders sometimes make better original objects than EA hackers, thus reducing the value of their product.

Well, that may be partially true from EAs standpoint, but there have been modders that have decoded and continue to decode the file formats. That's what I'm mainly talking about, the fact that the info that is discovered in this process hasn't, at least since the initial findings, seemed to be updated.

Oh... I thought I was getting deja vu as I have just come from this same thread over at N99

I can't see the slightest benefit in starting a 2nd Wiki.  I don't think I need to explain why do I?   Anyone can contribute to the existing one it's not like there is any censorship on it.

Well, I hadn't thrown that idea out on these forums yet, but clearly it seems that it may not be a good route to take.

For what it's worth, the wiki at MTS2 has been the exchange that got things where they are. People long absent deciphered the file format and divined the basic purpose for the various parts, based at least in part to the work that was done on SimCity4. Those that have done additional research since, myself included, stand on the shoulders of giants (my apologies to Sir Isaac Newton).

There is plenty of room for the critics to contribute themselves to the effort. There are plenty of known facts that have been disclosed in threads here (like dizzy's discoveries) and at MTS2 which are not in the wiki because NO ONE HAS WRITTEN IT UP. If you're waiting for someone else to do it for you, then you're a part of the problem.

The only in-depth thing I have done at the wiki is the GMDC reference. I didn't start it, and I didn't discover everything in it, but I have made my contribution and I keep it updated. I have some additional recent work that will be added when I get the last research finished.

Indeed, and kudos to Breon, Datafarmer, Karybdis, DarkMatter, and all the others that worked on that and to MTS2 for having the info available at their old wiki.

And as I previously mentioned, I have done some contributing to the MTS2 wiki in the past and I'm not saying I don't plan to in the future. But I'm not an expert in all the fields of custom content creation, so I can't contribute to anything and everything. My main question is that if there are so many creators and modders out there who DO know how certain things work, why haven't they contributed to the areas that they understand? Surely it can't be that hard for people who may know bits and pieces about certain things to post that stuff at the wiki, and it's not like doing so is an incredible burden or anything.

And for you and others who do contribute what you know, thanks.

------

Wow, that was a lot to reply to.

I hope I'm not coming off as a whiner or anything, I'm really not trying to whine, I'm just trying to understand all of this. If it comes down to only a few people, myself included, going around and scavenging all the little bits and pieces of info we can find and adding them to the MTS2 wiki, so be it. At least that's SOMETHING which is better than the little that goes on now. *Shrug*

[Inge]

What I just said at N99 is how about putting together a list or database of the most uptodate tutorials and info, then the actual content could be anywhere, it would just need a team of people to ensure the links were up to date and still led to relevant information.

[J. M. Pescado]

I agree that the politics is a major problem, and while there may be no set way to completely avoid such politics, there have to be some ways to reduce the amount of them that goes on. At least, I would think that if a completely neutral place was started that such a thing could happen.

Politics is hard to dodge, and paradoxically a "neutral" place is most likely to be consumed by politics. I mean, MTS2 seemed pretty neutral...but due to the apparent detachment of the administration and general non-involvement, traits you'd THINK would promote neutrality, it has instead paradoxically fostered politicization. When the people in charge of the site have no involvement in the actual business, it seems that they quickly become targets for manipulation by those who do, and lacking any grounding in the matter, tend to be easily swayed in one extreme direction.

See: Quaxi was originally a largely neutral party, but has since effectively fallen under the sway of a number of others who have shut out the inputs of everyone else, resulting in SimPE becoming the monstrosity it is. Since Quaxi himself does not actually attempt to really use what he produces, he doesn't really realize what's happening.

[Inge]

See: Quaxi was originally a largely neutral party, but has since effectively fallen under the sway of a number of others who have shut out the inputs of everyone else.

What are you blathering on about now?  Who are these people and how have they shut out your input?

[porkypine]

I've been in the IT business for several years. (and I still CAN't Type!  Oh, yea!  that means I'm in IT - we can't type!)  One of the major problems, as has already been discussed here, is that programmers and creators, while they may be excellent at producing products, aren't necessarily able to discuss what they do coherently with lay people.    As J.M.alluded to, programmers look at the immediate problem, not the overview.  So, if you ask them a specific question on how to fix a specific problem, they'll go through that index in their mind and pop out the answer.  Don't expect them to write a manual though.  Programmers type even worse than I do.  :0) They are brilliant, but myopic and tend to be lazy about writing down their spaghetti code.  AND, It takes a lot of time to write stuff well.

What is needed is the rarer person - the one who stands in the door - the one who is not a programmer, but knows enough about what is going on, who will turn around and translate what the programmer has done/said for those who don't have a clue. AND, the door person, needs to be a technical writer.

I've spent a lot of time trudging thorough various sites seeking tutorial content.  Lots of them are fantastic but I've had to bash my head on the keyboard a few times trying to figure out what they were trying to teach me - a lot of it is due to the fact that meshing is a complex subject and you need to be a very good, logical writer to note the exact steps you use.  The main problem is the order in that they tend to present their instructions in inverse order or in illogical steps or use inconsistent labeling.  In stead of giving exact, 1,2,3 steps, they tell you things like,  "Now copy your file to your tutorial folder and extract the cres and save it to your project folder. etc.  (I'm making up those steps.)  In the end, I finally figure out what I am supposed to be doing and re-write the instructions for myself.  But, I am not so rude to post that to the original tutorial author.   i have just about decided to write a start to finish create, modify and add to your mesh tutorial that covers the basics, except, I always find new things that I don't know how to do yet.  :0)

the other problem is bandwidth,.  I've had such terrible connectivity problems (I live out in the middle of nowhere) that I just don't have the time to wait for pages to load, so I just ask and come back later and hope my head doesn't get bit off for not looking in the obvious to them place. So far I have had excellent responses to my specific questions.  Upload files and photos really help clarify the issue.  A skilled mesher can  spot the fact that I've sproinged a mesh and tell me exactly what I did wrong when I didn't have a clue that I'd thought was a great thing, was in actuality that I'd done did a bad thing anyway.  (Now if you can figure out the above content and rewrite it skillfully, you are the next DOCUMENTATION EXPERT!)  :0)

[V]

the other problem is bandwidth,.  I've had such terrible connectivity problems (I live out in the middle of nowhere) that I just don't have the time to wait for pages to load, so I just ask and come back later and hope my head doesn't get bit off for not looking in the obvious to them place. So far I have had excellent responses to my specific questions.  Upload files and photos really help clarify the issue.  A skilled mesher can  spot the fact that I've sproinged a mesh and tell me exactly what I did wrong when I didn't have a clue that I'd thought was a great thing, was in actuality that I'd done did a bad thing anyway.  (Now if you can figure out the above content and rewrite it skillfully, you are the next DOCUMENTATION EXPERT!)  :0)

V's rewrite:
Because of my poor connectivity I risk being slapped for not doing my own research but just posting questions and then coming back later. I have found, however, that when I ask specific questions and include files & photos I usually receive excellent responses. In fact a skilled mesher can spot a problem and tell me exactly what I did wrong even on files that I thought were good, working meshes.

*****
I would be glad to be of use to the community, so I'd be happy to volunteer to rewrite whatever documentation needs to be written if nobody else better or more anxious is dying for the job.

[wes_h]

the other problem is bandwidth,.  I've had such terrible connectivity problems (I live out in the middle of nowhere) that I just don't have the time to wait for pages to load, so I just ask and come back later and hope my head doesn't get bit off for not looking in the obvious to them place.

I want to be careful so as not to appear to be commercializing anything. I don't wanna catch heck.
I had the same connectivity problems and lack of options, being 'way out in the middle of Texas.
I finally decided to try a satellite internet service.
For about $50/mo I get 500Kbs service. While it is not as good as wired service, due to the inherent lag of satellite round trips (a minor speed-of-light problem), it has worked pretty well. I have some difficulties when it rains hard, but I usually shut down then because of lightning.
I was also burdened by poor dialup modem speed... the fastest I could get connected at was 26K. And that cost nearly half of what the satellite costs. I did have to shell out about $200 for the equipment, but I think I paid that much money for my first modem (back in the olden days).
Enough said. I'm not recommending anything, just reporting my own solution to the problem you describe (I no longer cringe at anything over 1MB in size).

[PlayLives]

Sorry, just had to respond...
For all you programmers that don't comment your code... (tongue lashing)... QA's worst nightmare!!! Argh! 
I've been on both sides, and it is not too hard to put comments in your code, comments help with debugging.
End rant. 

[witch]

What is needed is the rarer person - the one who stands in the door - the one who is not a programmer, but knows enough about what is going on, who will turn around and translate what the programmer has done/said for those who don't have a clue. AND, the door person, needs to be a technical writer.

I've thought of going into this area. I made a business card once with my occupation as Nerd / Human Interface. 

I liaise between the IT dept and my team at work, I literally have to put things into different sets of language for the communication to happen sometimes.

[J. M. Pescado]

For all you programmers that don't comment your code... (tongue lashing)... QA's worst nightmare!!! Argh! 
I've been on both sides, and it is not too hard to put comments in your code, comments help with debugging.

A TRUE Klingon warrrior does not comment his code!

[Inge]

Klingon warriors do not write code, they tend to leave it to programmers, like we humans do.

[J. M. Pescado]

Obviously you've never heard of things like "CodeWarrior".

[miros]

"CodeWarrior" was originally a C++ compiler for Macs.

[Inge]

Interestingly no one has disputed the existence of Klingons...

[Ambular]

All true Klingons are warriors, whether they program or not.  Only wussy Federation geeks think the two are mutually exclusive.

And you obviously haven't been to a Star Trek convention lately, Inge.  If we denied they exist they'd kick our collective ass.

[Inge]

Lol I have *never* been to a star trek convention.  I am not even sure I believe Captain Kirk really went to space.  I think he was an actor or something.

[MsMaria]

Lol I have *never* been to a star trek convention.  I am not even sure I believe Captain Kirk really went to space.  I think he was an actor or something.

Say it ain't so! *sobs uncontrollably*

[neriana]

Sorry, just had to respond...
For all you programmers that don't comment your code... (tongue lashing)... QA's worst nightmare!!! Argh! 
I've been on both sides, and it is not too hard to put comments in your code, comments help with debugging.
End rant. 

In the very little programming I've done, I've had comments all over the place. This is probably because I'm not actually a programmer, so I think in English rather than code.

I'm another one who would be willing to help with translating programmers. I've felt the same problem in regard to finding advice on how to do things -- I've figured out a couple incredibly simple things on my own, but I can't go any farther. I also find many of the tutorials that do exist to be extremely difficult to understand. It seems that SimPE isn't the best way to really learn how to mod, either. It's great for recolors and editing saved games, but there isn't any way I can see to tear into the real guts of the game with it.

[dizzy]

Like it or not, SimPE is the best way to learn to mod right now. Other solutions are in the works, but nothing for beginners.

[witch]

In the very little programming I've done, I've had comments all over the place. This is probably because I'm not actually a programmer, so I think in English rather than code.

Same, I've done a little Visual Basic, a little Java, a little fuzzy logic Clips etc. My code looks like an essay with code bits in between - just so I can remember what it's supposed to do! 

[wes_h]

All true Klingons are warriors, whether they program or not. 

And no self respecting Klingon would ever write some shifty little virus or worm. Klingons would program a septicemia attack that would spread across the intergalacticnet like a big blue ball visible from across the galaxy...

[J. M. Pescado]

Like it or not, SimPE is the best way to learn to mod right now. Other solutions are in the works, but nothing for beginners.

And by "best", you mean "only", right? How's that I/O library coming?

[Paperbladder]

@miros - I didn't even know the MTS2 wiki was still around, I'll have to take a look at it later.

I'm terrible at commenting my code, even if I bother to do so at all.  My comments usually just state the obvious like "assigns X to Y" when the code is "x = y;".  I haven't programmed a whole lot though and only know some C.

I don't know about this "middleman" stuff, if you're a good programmer you should be able to explain your work to a common person.