Invisible Fish Poll

[RainbowTigress]

I did the total system purge they described on the site, and it didn't solve the problem.    I guess I"ll have to do some more research.  It doesn't seem to be affecting the game though.

[Verona]

I have a Radeon X1300 card with 512 MB. Interesting thing is, I not only have fish, but they never die or need feeding.  It's one heck of a graphics card. 

[J. M. Pescado]

I'm not sure why people would keep fish in a tank forever just to feed them. It seems rather pointless. Besides, fish are supposed to be self-perpetuating, with big fish eating small fish and small fish eating the tank algae and big fish that have died. Then occasionally when there are too many big fish, you eat one.

[ZephyrZodiac]

Or the cat does!

[Hegelian]

Can anyone tell me what this means?  I got this error when installing the new Catalyst drivers from ATI's website.

I've been looking around the Web and this appears to be a machine-specific problem, as users report moving the graphics board in question to a different machine and installing the same drivers without difficulty. In other words, something in your Windows installation is not quite right.   

These are the things I would try before backing up my data and doing a clean install of Windows:

First, have you previously had an nVidia board in your PC? If so, I would download Driver Cleaner and use it to clear out any nVidia cruft left behind by the nVidia uninstaller:  http://www.drivercleaner.net/professional.html
There is one thing the instructions don't mention that I would do:  Aafter uninstalling any nVidia or ATI drivers that appear in the Add or Remove Program list and rebooting, cancel out Windows's attempt to install drivers for new hardware. You want to run with the standard generic VGA drivers that ship with Windows. Then run Driver Cleaner.

If you haven't had an nVidia board in the past, try these steps:

1.  Download the driver removal tool from ATI's Web site.
2.  Uninstall all ATI software using Add or Remove Programs
3.  Go into Device Manager to see if any graphics boards are still installed (Display Adapters). If so, right-click on the entries and delete them.
4.  Reboot, cancel out the Add New Hardware wizard (don't let Windows install drivers for the ATI board), and run the driver removal tool.
5.  Reboot again, cancel the hardware wizard again, and install the drivers manually, using this method:
https://support.ati.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=894

If your graphics board supports dual displays, you will need to do this for both the primary and secondary display (in Device Manager, Windows will report that you have two identical graphics boards installed)

6.  This is optional.  Download just the drivers file instead of the combined drivers/Control Center file, and install the drivers separately. You will still probably need to use the manual installation method, but you can run the EXE file to get the driver files unpacked on your PC. All the driver files get unpacked in the C:\ATI folder; each driver set gets its own subfolder. You can also download the Control Panel (not the Control Center) from Catalyst 5.8 as a separate file, and install that instead of the resource-hog Control Center.

You do have .NET Framework installed, right? The Control Center (not the Control Panel) requires .NET 1.x.   

[jsalemi]

FYI, I downloaded and installed the latest Omega ATI drivers, which are based on the 6.5 version, and I was stunned at how much better the game looks when I played it last night.  It just looked way more 3-D than before, and the graphics response was a lot faster, too -- I could actually turn shadows back on and not experience any graphics lag.  And this is with an ATI X700 Pro card (256 MB). 

[vecki]

Updated my drivers yesterday.  While I got less graphical 'bleeding' (one floor tile insisted on shooting off into the sunset no matter which way I turned the view), I still have no fishies.

Oh well.

[ZephyrZodiac]

I sometimes get that problem, and usually find that saving the game cures it - at least for a while!

Like you though, still no fish.

[twistingsims]

I have a Sapphire Radeon 9200SE 128mb Driver Version (latest) 6.14.10.6517

soooo does this mean my graphic card must should be upgraded?

Must? Well no. . . . .

I just wanted to thank you Hegelian for this very helpful information, I definitely need some upgrading and I figured getting a new CPU would be the best way to go.

Just one question, now as for getting towers from HP, Dell, etc, is that really the best way to go.  The reason I ask is because all my local tech guys don't think this is good because of the lack of local support, problems and support desks and all that and trying to upgrade as well.

I would be definitely be interested in your opinion on this.

thanks

[Hegelian]

Um, do your local support guys want you to pay them to build a PC for you??   

So much depends on your level of expertise / comfort in messing around with the machine yourself. Building it yourself gives you total control over the parts and installed software, but you are also your own tech support (of course, fixing your mistakes is one way of increasing your knowledge). Generally (yes there may be exceptions), unless you have access to wholesale prices, you can't build a PC for the price of a pre-built system from someone like HP.

However, if you do buy an HP (which in my opinion is the best value at the moment, at least in the US), Gateway, or Dell, buy from their Web site and go through the custom configuration. The really low prices you see on name-brand PCs at online retailers like Newegg or in chain stores like Circuit City are achieved by cutting corners on RAM and hard drives:  too little RAM, and slow (5400 RPM HDDs). Plus, you can sometimes avoid the clutter of preinstalled junk software so many pre-built systems come with. Keep in mind that you are not obligated to buy a monitor when you by the PC, if you're happy with what you already have. Also, the graphics-card options can be pretty limited, so an argument can be made for going with the integrated graphics than a lot of OEM motherboards provide and buying a graphics board from a discounter like Newegg.

As far as warranty service, it seems that most PCs come with a one- or two-year warranty with the option to buy an extended on-site service contract. Whether this is worthwhile is something you need to decide for yourself. But ask yourself this:  will your tech guys come to your house for free to fix your PC if it messes up or a part fails? HP, for example, uses local service contractors to provide same-day or next-day on-site service (depending on what plan you buy) and all costs are covered by the service plan.

Basically, if you're not particularly computer-savvy and/or lack the inclination to get down-and-dirty with your PC, a pre-built system from a major vendor is probably the way to go—although you can sometimes also do well with local, independent builders.

I just configured a PC with the following specs, for 775 USD (after $50 mail-in rebate):

 Windows XP Home Edition     
AMD Athlon 64 3800+ (2.4GHz / 512KB L2 cache)    
1GB DDR-400MHz dual channel SDRAM (2x512)  [two RAM modules needed for dual-channel operation]   
160GB 7200 rpm SATA Hard Drive    
Double Layer 16X max. DVD +/-R/RW drive    
3.5 in. 1.44MB Floppy Drive    
Integrated NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE graphics
Sound Blaster Audigy 4, 24-bit ADVANCED HD Audio    
HP Keyboard, HP Scroller Mouse [can't opt out]   
Microsoft Works 8.0/Money 2006/MSN Encarta Plus    
Two-year on-site service plan
   
Eliminating the service plan knocks this down by $85, and reducing the CPU to a 3500+ takes off another $80.

A similar machine with an Athlon 64 X2 3800+ dual-core CPU and nVidia GeForce 7300LE is around $1120 (with 2-year on-site service plan), but now we're into territory where you can build one yourself for less money—see this topic for links to DIY gaming machines for less than 1000 USD.

This seems as good a place as any to point out that you can get a slight increase in CPU performance by buying a Sound Blaster audio card and disabling the on-board audio, since on-board audio uses the CPU for audio processing. Adding an Audigy 2 board will free up some CPU cycles as well as improve your sound quality.   

[twistingsims]

Well thank you again, your advise is awesome and I will definitely have some thinkin' to do b4 I can purchase one.  This information is very helpful and I appreciate your advise for sure.

I got a price for just the CPU for around 650.00 + tax, Canadian, including labor, but I don't have all the specs as of yet. My guy did mention its a Celeron 3.0 Pentium 3, a 6ghz CPU, video card included, no detail on that yet, can add higher video card for extra 65.00 + tax, if I want to upgrade to a P4 3.0 add another 125 + tax, it has 512 ram (definitely have to up that to 1gb!!) and 80 gb hard drive, that hurts because I just upgraded my computer to a 120 gb (2 harddrives)!! but anyway, 2 yr warranty, keyboard, mouse, and DVD writer/player.

[ZephyrZodiac]

If you go to a small firm that makes and upgrades computers, they may be able to build you one using a lot of your existing hardware.   A lot of the small components may not cost much individually, but add them up, and there's your second RAM stick!

[baaaflatfit]

Yes to fish!  OFB patch1 installed.

NVIDIA GeForce 6600 GT 256MB

Driver Version: 6.14.

Max

[verdaeni]

i have the infamous 82915g  chip  and as of OFB (or was it OFB?)  i no longer have fish.

good take on the B5 quote.

[Hegelian]

I got a price for just the CPU for around 650.00 + tax, Canadian, including labor, but I don't have all the specs as of yet. My guy did mention its a Celeron 3.0 Pentium 3, a 6ghz CPU

Please don't be offended when I say I'm quite confused by this.

There are no 6 GHz CPUs for the PC; the fastest you can get in raw clock speed is a Pentium 4 at 3.8 GHz.
The Celeron is a diffierenct product line, a budget part with lower performance; the fastest one is ~3.3 GHz.
The 3.33 GHz Celeron D 355 is US$84 from Newegg; the dual-core Pentium D 950 (Presler) at 3.4 GHz is US$344. A plain old LGA-755, 3.4 GHz Pentium 4 is US$276, and a 3.0 GHz P4 for Socket 478 is US$192.

If the C$650 is just for the processor, then I'd say someone is trying to rip you off. If by CPU you mean the entire box (processor, case and PSU, RAM, hard drives and optical drives), then it may not be so bad, depending on what you're really getting in it. Definitely stay away from the Celeron processors if you want the best performance in TS2, since these are basically for folks who just want to browse the Web and send email. 

Be careful about the graphics board and do your homework. If the choices offered by the seller are limited and not something that is really suitable for the game, then buy what you want elsewhere and install it yourself. The two main players offer a bunch of products at different price-points, and all the model variations (Pro, XL, XT, GT, SE, etc.) can be pretty confusing. You really ought to be looking at about US$170-$220 for a graphics board if you're looking to have a more-or-less up-to-date PC. The Radeon X800 continues to be the best value for money at the moment—the Powercolor X800 GTO PCI-E at US120 (Newegg) is a steal (I don't think you can get anything from nVidia for under US$200 that will outperform it, and by all accounts the image provided by the Radeon will be much better); for a hundred dollars more you can get much higher performance with a Sapphire Radeon X1800 XT (US$239). IMO, the X800 boards are a better buy than the newer X1600 boards, so if you were to go with an X1000-series board, you'd want to stick to the X1800 or X1900.

If you're planning on retiring the old PC, you can move the hard drives to the new PC (although you'll want to reformat the drive that has Windows so you don't have two boot drives at the same time). Even if you're going to keep using the old one, you can always move just the second drive. 

[J. M. Pescado]

Heh, someone got robbed, paying $650 for a Celery...

[twistingsims]

  ha, ha JM your funny, a celery!! 

I am definitely not offended as I probably misunderstood what my guy left on my voicemail.  So I definitely don't know where the 6 comes into it. The $650 is for the entire box (processor, case and PSU, RAM, hard drives and optical drives), and a keyboard and mouse, which I really don't need!!

Cool about the second hard drive thou, I definitely need that for all the downloads and such 

So does this sound like a good plan too?

Posted by: ZephyrZodiac
If you go to a small firm that makes and upgrades computers, they may be able to build you one using a lot of your existing hardware.   A lot of the small components may not cost much individually, but add them up, and there's your second RAM stick!

The only thing I'm worried about going to a computer company is that they will try to convince me to add more than I really need!

oh I am soooo confused!!  I know this may be asking alot, and you've definitely been so very helpful, but if you could outline the minimum processor I need and two examples of brands and the same with the graphics board or card ( not sure if that means two different components).  I'd like to stay with the Radeon, if the X800 is good for the game, I would use that.  So basically you are saying the processor and the graphic card/board are the two main areas to be concerned about right?

[ZephyrZodiac]

And the power supply.  Never hurts to have a new mouse, but keyboards - if you like the one you have and are comfortable with it, why change?  I still use the keyboard from my old IBM ME which went the way of all computers a while back.

You can in fact put all your game files (i.e. your entire My Documents folder) onto your second hard drive.  You just right click the short-cut on the desktop, and you get the option to move it.  Can't quite remember what it said, since mine's already there, so of course, I know longer get the option.  Windows just routes everything to the correct files on that drive, and it leaves plenty of room on the main drive for all the rest of the expansions!  (If I should live so long......)

[Hegelian]

oh I am soooo confused!!  I know this may be asking alot, and you've definitely been so very helpful, but if you could outline the minimum processor I need and two examples of brands and the same with the graphics board or card ( not sure if that means two different components).

I'm not sure it is possible to answer that question. The minimum is on the box and in the Readme file on the CD. The minimum for you depends on what you want from the game. Because TS2 is largely limited by CPU power, the more capable the processor you have, the more the game will do:  better frame rates (smoother camera motion and no stop-action on community lots), more sims on a lot, more and better detail on clothing and objects, etc. I personally don't know if there's a CPU speed beyond which no improvements in game performance can be seen, but I suspect it will take advantage of a 3.73 GHz Pentium 965  Extreme Edition if you could afford one (US$1045).

Presumably this PC is intended to last some time; therefore, although TS2 and most other games are "single-threaded" and run faster on higher-speed single-core CPUs than on lower-speed dual-core CPUs, once you get past the 3-GHz level either in clock speed (Intel) or equivalent processor performance (Athlon 64 3000+ and up), the differences are not particularly significant. But single-core CPUs are essentially living dinosaurs, on their way out, and dual-core CPUs are the future for now. The current range of Intel CPUs still show some performance deficiencies in games compared to the new dual-core Athlons (the X2 series that fit in the new AM2 socket), but if you were to wait until the end of July when Intel's Core 2 processors are released, that situation is likely to be reversed in a big way.

But if you are buying today, this is what we're looking at. We'll take C$650 to be about the same as US$550 (at today's exchange rate, it's actually a bit more, but I'm not going to include VAT here), and, because I don't have a good way to judge, we'll assume equivalent pricing although prices in Canada tend to be higher for most things even after correcting for the exchange rate.

Unless you're willing to overclock your CPU, in that price range you're probably going to get better performance for you money with an Athlon 64 CPU (I don't think you're going to get a dual-core Athlon at that price point—at retail, the least expensive Athlon 64 X2 is about US$300); you should be able to get the 3500+ rather than the 3200+, but the performance difference may not be great enough if the price differential is more than $20-30. You're going to want 1 GB of DDR RAM (the Athlon 64 CPU has the memory controller built in and does not support DDR2) and a 7200-RPM SATA hard drive. Watch out for the chipset: AMD does not build the support chips for their CPUs and the third-party chipsets vary in quality. Stick with a chipset from nVidia, ATI, or VIA.

Buying an AMD-based PC can be an adventure, because of the multitude of CPUs and configurations. The standard socket for the Athlon 64 has been socket 939, although there are also Athlons for socket 754 and socket 940. But AMD is in the process of migrating its entire product line to the new AM2 socket, and the various Athlon 64 models are now available in both socket 939 and AMD versions, for the same price. Since socket 939 is going to be phased out, perhaps by the end of this year, buying a socket-939 system now could siginificantly constrain your upgrade options in the future. If I were buying AMD today, I would try to get an Athlon 64 3500+ in an AM2 motherboard. In truth, however, I wouldn't buy today—I would wait until the big AMD price drop on 24 July, the day after Intel is slated to release its Core 2 CPUs, and then go for a dual-core Athlon 64 X2 in an AM2 motherboard. Besides, the X2 CPUs support DDR2 memory.

Things are a bit different with Intel, since you can get a dual-core Pentium in your price range. Indeed, with after-market cooling, you can overclock a lowly Pentum D805 to 4 GHz.   But in this price range, you may be able to get a Pentium D820 (2.8GHz dual-core) or a Pentium 4 524 (3.06 GHz). Again, watch out for the chipset, but for different reasons. Intel makes its own chipsets and there's no reason not to go with that, since Intel's chipsets are perfectly matched to its CPUs, are ultra-stable, and don't suffer from dodgy drivers. System builders often keep their prices down by going with cheap OEM motherboards with third-party chipsets; if you must go that route, stick to ATI or VIA and avoid SiS or ULi (a spinoff from ALi, which was notorius for instability and driver problems). With an Intel CPU I would definitely opt for two modules of DDR2 RAM operating in dual-channel mode.

As with AMD, if it were me, I would wait until after Intel releases its Core 2 products before making a buying decision unless it was absolutely imperative to buy a new machine before then.

Regardless of what you get, try to budget WinXP Pro instead of the Home edition, and avoid the Media Center edition.

Avoid Celeron (Intel) and Sempron (AMD) CPUs, which are performance-impaired budget parts.

I'd like to stay with the Radeon, if the X800 is good for the game, I would use that.

We have two PCs with 2.8-GHz P4 CPUs and X800 graphic boards, and can run with all detail settings at high, shadows and reflections, and Smooth Edges at the first setting (2x anti-aliasing). With these settings, residential lots with many residents and/or lots of CC can be slow, as are community lots (especially downtown), but this can be speeded up a bit by turning off Smooth Edges (personally I don't like jaggies); and in any case this is mostly a function of the CPU. The X800 GT and GTO are terrific performers at current prices, so if you have one already then there's no reason to buy a new graphics board right away. I suspect that later in the year prices for X850 models will come down and those will probably become the price/performance leaders. For a bit (or a lot!) more money, the X1800 XT or X1900 GT will probably give you a significant performance increase, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that the less expensive X1600 line performs better than the older X800 boards (which were something of a breakthrough in their day, and, unlike the X1600 series, the top of the heap at one time). See this topic for more. 

"Graphics board" and "video card" refer to the same thing:  a plug-in display controller, the thing to which you connect your monitor. The display controller determines how the image on your monitor appears (sharp, fuzzy, etc.) and the 3D graphics capability of your PC. At this price point, you are likely not to have an actual graphics board at all, but rather a display controller integrated into the motherboard chipset (the chips and circuits that support the CPU, control things like hard-drive access and network connections, etc.). This is known, not surprisingly, as integrated graphics. Integrated graphics have improved greatly in the last five or so years, so that you can actually play TS2 on a PC with integrated graphics without too much pain. Nonetheless, for best results you will want to add a plug-in graphics board and disable the integrated graphics in the BIOS (follow the instructions for entering Setup when you first start the PC, usually by pressing F1, F2, F10, or DEL depending on the motherboard).

Speaking of integrated stuff, virtually all motherboards these days include integrated sound. Again this is much improved in recent years, but even if you are perfectly happy with the quality of your PC sound, integrated sound uses the CPU for much of its data processing, so adding a relatively inexpensive Sound Blaster Audigy 2 or X-Fi board to your PC can free up some CPU cycles for the game.

[jsalemi]

Speaking of integrated stuff, virtually all motherboards these days include integrated sound. Again this is much improved in recent years, but even if you are perfectly happy with the quality of your PC sound, integrated sound uses the CPU for much of its data processing, so adding a relatively inexpensive Sound Blaster Audigy 2 or X-Fi board to your PC can free up some CPU cycles for the game.

Thanks for this tip --  I went out earlier to get another gig of memory for my system (to bring it up to 2Gb), and Best Buy had an Audigy 4 for a decent price, so I got that as well.  I'm already impressed with the improved sound over the on-board device, and I'll be interested to see what difference it makes in the game later when I fire it up.  Though I suspect the extra Gb of RAM will make a bigger difference.

[Hegelian]

Try this:

Take an inexpensive integrated amp or receiver and some reasonable "bookshelf" speakers (such as the Epos ELS 3, NHT SB-3, or PSB Alpha B1), connect the amp to the sound card using one of those high-quality audio cables marketed for iPods that has a standard stereo mini-plug on one end and a pair of RCA plugs on the other (I got my 3m Audioquest cable from Audio Advisor), and load MP3s of your favorite music into the various "channel" folders in My Documents>EA Games>The Sims 2>Music. Then go into the game and de-select all the Maxis music in the various categories. Your game will be much more enjoyable—you may even want your sims to leave the stereo on when they go to work or to bed!   

[twistingsims]

phew, that's alot of info, thank you again Hegelian, I probably will wait until the end of July, and get those better prices.

[ElfPuddle]

I'm not sure if you care anymore, but I just installed OFB (yes, I always wait a while). Nothing has changed with my computer other than the new game. I had visible fish with NL and now I have invisible fish. Ah well, good thing I usually don't zoom in closely. :S