Building/Upgrading a PC for TS2

[jsalemi]

Here's a CPU question -- given that they're virtually the same price at newegg these days, if you were building a new PC would you go with the Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz or the Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3GHz processor?

[Hegelian]

Here's a CPU question -- given that they're virtually the same price at newegg these days, if you were building a new PC would you go with the Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz or the Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3GHz processor?

Personally, I would probably go with the faster dual-core CPU because I don't think I run anything that would benefit much from a quad-core at this point, and speed is still a consideration regarding relative performance (although no longer the single overriding factor it once was). It is something I would want to research though, if I were actually in the market. If I was running software that would enjoy a significant benefit from the quad-core CPU, I would probably go with that.

I have seen some remarks in passing here and there on the Web that seem to suggest that in some instances quad-core can actually cause some problems with certain BIOSes or software or both, but I didn't read any of them carefully so I don't know what that's about. It is something I would want to research to determine whether dual or quad would be more beneficial for my particular use.

EDIT:  You might want to take a look at this recent article at Tom's Hardware:

The New Core 2 Duo: 45 nm Wolfdale Replaces 65 nm Conroe

It might be worth looking for a motherboard that will run the E8400 at ~USD240.

[jsalemi]

Thanks, I'll look at that.  I don't really do anything that needs a Quad Core.  The only processor intensive thing I do (other than playing the Sims) is video editing with Pinnacle Studio, and they only recommend a Dual Core or higher for HD editing.  Since I don't have an HD video camera, and probably won't for quite some time, it would purely be a speed thing.  So the 3Ghz seems the way to go right now.

Yea, newegg has the E8400 for $240, although they're currently out of stock. It looks like the  GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX All Solid Capacitor Intel Motherboard you recommended in your last MATY PC list supports it (at least newegg thinks it does).  I'm also looking at the  ASUS P5K-VM LGA 775 Intel G33 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard, because it has more USB ports, and I have a LOT of USB devices to connect to it.  But with the chip out of stock, it'll be a bit before I get either one, I guess.

ETA: I ended up buying the Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3P LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Dynamic Energy Saver Ultra Durable II Intel Motherboard -- a bit more expensive, but it has a boatload of USB and eSATA connections, and doesn't waste space on useless parallel or com ports. I ordered everything but the new CPU in fact, due to some really nice rebates that expired on 2/21 -- wanted to get the order in in time to take advantage of them.

Now I'm waiting to see if the E8400 shows up at newegg anytime soon -- if not, I'll just go with the E6850. Alternatively, a couple of eBay Express sellers have it for $10 more than newegg, so if it doesn't show up there soon, I can go the eBay route.  No big rush, though, since my current machine works fine.  It's just reaching the end of its 'lifecycle'.

ETA #2: Well, it looks like the E8400s are in very short supply, and no one has any estimate when they'll get more in stock, so I went with the eBay Express seller that had one left. It was only $10 more than newegg, so it was worth it.

Question -- will I run into any problems just taking my current system drive out of my current computer and using it in the new one?  I mean, it'll boot so I can update the system board drivers, right? I plan on upgrading it to a 150GB WD Raptor in the near future (it's only 80GB), but I don't want to have to reformat and rebuild the drive if I can avoid it.

[jsalemi]

Ok -- just wanted to report back that the system is up and running, and it's a screamer! I used to be able to go get a cup of coffee between the time I started TS2 and the neighborhood menu appeared -- now it takes less that 2 minutes.  And when the game goes into speed 3, like when the sims are sleeping, the clock spins so fast that I can barely see the numbers.  Night now passes in a couple of minutes.  And it boots up in about 1/3 of the time.

Anyway, here's the almost final state of the new PC:

SILVERSTONE Kublai Series KL02B Black Aluminum front panel, SECC body ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3P LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Dynamic Energy Saver Ultra Durable II Intel Motherboard
PC Power & Cooling S610EPS EPS12V 610W Continuous @ 40°C Power Supply
ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro 92mm CPU Cooler
Intel E8400 3GHz Core Duo CPU (got the last one available from sellers on eBay Express)
4 GB DDR2-800 RAM
SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model SH-S203N
Western Digital Raptor WD1500ADFD 150GB 10,000 RPM SATA 1.5Gb/s Hard Drive

Total cost so far: a bit above $1k (all from Newegg, except for the CPU)

Moved from my old Dell:
80GB 7,200 RPM SATA drive (formerly C:, now D: in the new PC)
100GB and 320GB USB 2.0 external HDs
40x IDE DVD-ROM reader
Radeon X1300 512MB video card
22" widescreen LCD monitor
XP Pro

The only weak link right now seems to be the X1300 video card -- it just can't keep up with the amount of data the CPU is throwing at it.  I have the CPU on the Gigabyte C.I.A. 2 automatic overclocking, at the second level, which pushes it up to 3.3GHz (about 10%) when the CPU is under load.  I tried the 3rd level, which goes up to about 12-15%, but ended up with BSODs from the ATI driver when there was a lot of graphics activity going on (both in TS2 and when I was doing some heavy video editing).  So I ordered a  HIS Hightech H385QX512NP Radeon HD 3850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 from Newegg that should be arriving tomorrow. That adds about another $200 to the cost, but I have a system that'll keep me happy for quite some time.

So thanks for the suggestions Hegelian, especially about the E8400!

[KatEnigma]

I love my new 3850 card. However, be warned that there's a bug in TS2 that prevents the 2xxx and 3xxx cards from showing the damn video games and shows/movies on the TV and computer screens, in game. Instead, they go black. I didn't know about it until I'd uninstalled/reinstalled trying to fix it. 

[jsalemi]

I love my new 3850 card. However, be warned that there's a bug in TS2 that prevents the 2xxx and 3xxx cards from showing the damn video games and shows/movies on the TV and computer screens, in game. Instead, they go black. I didn't know about it until I'd uninstalled/reinstalled trying to fix it. 

Ah, good to know.  I wonder if the black computer screen fix in Peasantry fixes that?  Or maybe the latest ATI drivers? (8.2)

[kaydee]

I love my new 3850 card. However, be warned that there's a bug in TS2 that prevents the 2xxx and 3xxx cards from showing the damn video games and shows/movies on the TV and computer screens, in game. Instead, they go black. I didn't know about it until I'd uninstalled/reinstalled trying to fix it. 

Ah, good to know.  I wonder if the black computer screen fix in Peasantry fixes that?  Or maybe the latest ATI drivers? (8.2)

Yeah, I also have this card and thanks to you guys, discovered this issue.  I have the latest drivers for this card and the TV/computer screen is still showing as black, so I don't think that's it jsalemi.  Hopefully they'll be updating again soon.

KatEnigma, you haven't noticed any weirdness in the screenshots saved in your Storytelling folder since you got this card, have you?

[KatEnigma]

Latest drivers don't fix it. I will have to attempt the fix in Peasantry! I should look in there more often

No weirdness in my Storytelling folder with this card. In fact, it fixed weirdness I had been having with pictures sometimes. When I opened up my machine to do the upgrades, there was a capacitor from the card sitting in the bottom of the case.  So my reason is unlikely to be yours.

[jsalemi]

Found a post on the <shudder> BBS that said ATI is working on the black TV screen problem, and that it should be fixed in the 8.3 drivers, due out in a couple of weeks.

[KatEnigma]

Yay, that's good news! I wanted to be able to see the in-game L&P for TS3 and Spore. Without installing FT on my laptop, which would work, but not well. I can wait for the monthly driver update.

[kaydee]

Yay, that's good news! I wanted to be able to see the in-game L&P for TS3 and Spore. Without installing FT on my laptop, which would work, but not well. I can wait for the monthly driver update.

I saw the TS3 L&P once before I upgraded my card and you're not missing much. 

Damn, I wish I could figure out why I'm getting these weird random screenshots, though.  It's like the game is pulling thumbnails out and randomly sticking them either on a black screen or on a copy of a screenshot.  I wouldn't think it would be a video card issue but I just can't come up with anything else it could be.  :/

[Hegelian]

Ok -- just wanted to report back that the system is up and running, and it's a screamer!

So thanks for the suggestions Hegelian, especially about the E8400!

You're welcome! I'm jealous that you were actually able to build this machine.

As for your question about moving the old boot drive into the new machine without doing a clean install—I'm curious about how that worked out. Generally, trying to boot into Windows on a new motherboard with an installation done for a different MB can cause problems with driver conflicts for the motherboard components. You seem to have not had a problem; did you uninstall the motherboard drivers for the old PC before installing the hard drive in the new machine? You mention in your later post that the old drive is now the D: drive in the new machine, so did you end up doing a clean install on the Raptor? Given the speed advantage of the new drive, this is what I would have done.   

Definitely get rid of that X1300 (or use it with the remains of the old PC to build a budget a backup or Linux machine)—it's a budget part that wasn't even performance competitive with the previous X800-series midrange boards (like the X800 GT), and perhaps even the 9800XT.

[jsalemi]

As for your question about moving the old boot drive into the new machine without doing a clean install—I'm curious about how that worked out. Generally, trying to boot into Windows on a new motherboard with an installation done for a different MB can cause problems with driver conflicts for the motherboard components. You seem to have not had a problem; did you uninstall the motherboard drivers for the old PC before installing the hard drive in the new machine? You mention in your later post that the old drive is now the D: drive in the new machine, so did you end up doing a clean install on the Raptor? Given the speed advantage of the new drive, this is what I would have done.   

Definitely get rid of that X1300 (or use it with the remains of the old PC to build a budget a backup or Linux machine)—it's a budget part that wasn't even performance competitive with the previous X800-series midrange boards (like the X800 GT), and perhaps even the 9800XT.

I've replaced the X1300 with a HD 3850, so life is good.

I didn't do a clean install -- I made a custom XP install disk and did a repair.  It was enough to get it running and then use the WD utility to copy the disk image to the Raptor and then boot from that.  If you asked me 2 days ago, I would have said that worked fine, but then I got home from work yesterday to find the machine completely locked up and wouldn't reboot.  So I ultimately ended up doing a clean XP install on the Raptor last night, and I've spent most of today reinstalling all my software.  Still have some minor glitches, but I'll work them out.  My on-board RealTek audio never came back for whatever reason, but I don't mind since I was planning on updating to a newer SoundBlaster anyway, so I just put my old Audigy 4 back in until the new X-Fi Xtreme Audio board arrives.

[KatEnigma]

I managed to move my windows installation when I found that my 31 day old motherboard was only reading RAM in the last 2 slots. (with a 30 day return policy! Argh!) I had the phone ready to call Microsoft, sure I'd have to reinstall, but *knock wood* It booted up and let me install the Bios update and mobo drivers, and all windows wanted was to let it reauthenticate. And this was with a totally different brand of mobo. It's been 2 weeks now, and everything is running fine.

jsalemi, how do you like the card? It really gives a pretty picture, doesn't it? If they'd just fix the driver and TS2, I'd be in heaven. 

[jsalemi]

Yea, the card is really nice, but I'm having a bunch of BSODs that I'm suspecting are either RAM that went bad or the Raptor having problems.  I'm going to play with removing and swaping the RAM today to see if that's the issue. If it's the Raptor, I'll be annoyed.  If it's the mobo that went bad, I'll be pissed.

I actually had to reactive XP so many times that I hit the MS 'wall', and had to call on the phone to get it re-activated.  Major annoying.

[KatEnigma]

Why not just run MemTest of the RAM?

Yeah, I was Not Amused that i had to replace the mobo, and that I hadn't really looked into why my game was running so poorly until after I couldn't exchange it. 

[Hegelian]

Sorry to hear about the BSODs. I am doubtful the hdd is the problem; it just doesn't seem like the kind of error a bad hdd would produce. Do you have startup problems, like the "no system disc error"? I have had only two drive failures over the years, both recent:  The hdd in this laptop tested okay on the self-test (in BIOS) but had recurring problems with not being recognized as the system disc, or generating missing or corrupt Windows system files. Sometimes it would still boot, but toward the end it took forever to get past the Windows logo screen. But when it did boot into Windows, it ran with no problems as long as I did not shut down or let it go into standby.

During the holidays I had my old DOS/Win98 machine set up briefly for some maintenance—it has been mothballed since I moved here two years ago—and started getting a S.M.A.R.T. warning that one of its old Western Digital IDE drives is failing. I picked up a replacement for cheap on eBay (I didn't want a big new drive since the failing drive is a combination of FAT16 and FAT32), but have not installed it yet. The reason I mention this is because the drive itself shows no symptoms of having a problem. So I have one failing drive that tested okay, and a drive that reports imminent failure but is not symptomatic.   

You didn't mention above the specifics of the RAM you bought. This seems a more likely culprit than the hdd. This may be stating the obvious, but have checked the BIOS to be sure the RAM is set to its specified settings? We had a problem here when I upgraded Reggikko's PC with a new motherboard and CPU that run with an 800MHz FSB without considering the RAM, and the PC2700 she had just wasn't stable at that speed. Some enthusiast motherboards tweak their default speeds for RAM and the CPU, so you may want to be sure the RAM timings in the BIOS are what the RAM manufacturer specifies. As you probably already know, you can test your RAM by running just one module, and then a pair, and then if you don't have problems, doing the same with the other pair (it is possible your motherboard is one that requires running one, two, or four modules, but not three). If you find one that appears to be bad, you can run one of the other modules in that socket to see if the problem is the module or the socket. MemTest is worth a try, as well.

Motherboard. Sadly, even the best motherboards have relatively high rates of defective units and failures, compared to most other computer parts and to virtually all other consumer products. I've had a couple go bad on me, one a highly-regarded ASUS P2B-S which developed a problem that we only diagnosed a few weeks before the warranty ran out (the vendor made the exchange—ASUS's customer support was abysmal); and the other was a Gigabyte board (also with the BX chipset iirc) that I got as a closeout from the old TC Computers and which was never really right, constantly returning corrupt Registry errors on boot (in Win98) and loading the previous good version, so that whenever I made any change to the system, I had to manually save the Registry several times in succession to be sure that on the next boot, the restored Registry would have my current configuration. Also, I had a friend whose new motherboard had a parallel port that was DOA.

So once you've eliminated the possibility of driver issues, I would think RAM and then motherboard as the next most likely culprits, followed by a defective video board, and then. . . .   

[jsalemi]

Yes, I got new RAM, and made sure it was on Gigabyte's list of supported types, so that's not the issue.  I did find out the issue though, so far -- it does look to be that the new HD 3850 failed.  I started having a problem with an unknown PCI device this morning, and after booting with nothing else in the system but the video card, still got it. I have a 600w power supply, so I know there's more than enough power to spare for it. So I put my old X1300 back in, and the problem went away.

Now that's not saying that the mobo is perfectly OK, but the problems did start a day or two after I installed the new video card.  Since the system as a whole is new, I had to do a process of elimination to find out the problem, not believing it could be a brand new video card causing it.  So it goes.

Anyway, I got a RMA from newegg, so it's going back tomorrow.  So far the system has been stable with the old video card -- not a single BSOD since I swapped them.  So cross fingers and hope it's only the card and nothing else.  (It's an HIS version of the 3850, BTW.)

[Hegelian]

This is no surprise, really. Video boards and motherboards are probably the least reliable components in a PC. The first Radeon X800GT I bought (a Sapphire model) failed within two days of installation; it's replacement is running fine in Reggikko's machine some three years later. EE friends tell me that if a PCB component is going to fail, it will most likely fail within 72 hours—not that they can't fail over time, like that P2B-S which ran fine for about seven months before it started burning out video boards (the AGP voltage on that model was out of spec and would fry boards that couldn't handle the difference), and then about 11 months out another known design flaw in the north bridge became symptomatic and I had to RMA it.

Incidentally, the north bridge problem only manifested itself under stress, and I was using Photoshop a lot at the time. It was actually a Photoshop engineer on Adobe's forums who informed me of the problem, which had progressed from Photoshop to Word to Netscape over time—the PC would simply lock up, requiring a cold reboot. Apparently, Photoshop stesses your hardware more than most applications, and it seems that once it "triggered" the problem, the effects gradually spread to less demanding applications. This was when I learned that lockups—as opposed to crashes—are always hardware-related (driver problems can be considered hardware problems).

[jsalemi]

Yea, that sounds about right -- the video card failed within 36 hours after I installed it.  The thing that told me it probably wasn't the mobo, CPU or power supply is that most of the BSODs would happen when pretty much nothing at all was going on on the machine -- maybe I was checking email or websurfing, but not really putting any stress on it. And to be sure, I turned off all the automatic overclocking the Gigabyte supports, bringing the BIOS down to bare basics, and still got the BSODs.  And they happened randomly, with no particular one software cause I could isolate.

What drove me nuts is that it wasn't the same error message two times in a row -- sometimes it was the 'paged in unpaged memory' error, other times it was the 'irq not equal', and other times some obscure message that I had to search all over the net to find. In all cases, research said the errors were hardware problems, most likely memory, and since no particular driver ever showed up in the BSOD, it was a process of elimination. I swapped memory in and out, and changed the slots, and it still crashed. I even put a volt meter on the video card connector from the power supply to make sure it was providing the proper voltage. I didn't get a real clue until the 'unknown PCI device' started  showing up in the device manager, and the only PCI device in the machine at the time was the video card.  So it goes.

So for now it's back up and running, seems to be stable, so I'm crossing my fingers and hoping the failing video card didn't take anything else with it.

[Simsbaby]

Can anybody recommend a great Intel motherboard with Firewire and SLI? Three PCI slots would be nice too. I'm going to try and upgrade my current computer again, and I want to be ready for when the time comes for SLI. I could also use a good power supply to go with it.

Current Specs
Core2Duo E4500 2.2GHz LGA775
4GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800MHz
250GB 7200RPM Samsung SATA
160GB 7200RPM ATA
60GB 5400?RPM ATA
256MB EVGA GeForce 7600 GT PCI-E
A-Bit Wireless PCI-E
Random junky modem PCI 

Thanks.

[jsalemi]

Have you checked on newegg?  There's a ton of mid-range (around $100 or less) motherboards there, with mucho firewire and USB ports, and PCI/PCIe slots.  SLI is the nVidea dual-card thing, right?

[Akharra]

Hi! I was concidering purchasing this p.c. I have a 550 watt power supply and an ati 1300 video card I can put into it. I am now using an Hp with Celeron processor. (UGH!) Will this be an improvement or do you have any suggestions? My price range is about $1,000.00. Thanks!!
General Information
Manufacturer:  Hewlett-Packard
 
Manufacturer Part Number:  KA418UT#ABA
 
Manufacturer Website Address:  www.hp.com
 
Product Line:  Business Desktop
 
Product Series:  5000
 
Product Model:  KA418UT
 
Product Name:  Business Desktop dc5800
 
Product Type:  Desktop Computer
 

Processor & Chipset
Processor:  1 x Intel Pentium Dual-Core E2180 2GHz
 
Processor Technology:  EM64T
 
Bus Speed:  800MHz
 
Cache:  1MB L2 Cache
 
Chipset:  Intel Q33 Express
 

Memory
Standard Memory:  512MB
 
Maximum Memory:  8GB
 
Memory Technology:  DDR2 SDRAM
 
Memory Standard:  DDR2-800/PC2-6400
 
Memory Channel:  Dual-channel
 
Error Checking:  Non-ECC
 
Memory Slots:  4 Total
 

Storage
Hard Drive:  80GB Serial ATA/300 7200 rpm
 
Optical Drive:  DVD-Reader - DVD-ROM (Serial ATA)
 

Controllers
Controller:  Serial ATA/300
 

Display & Graphics
Graphics Controller:  Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100 256MB Shared DDR2 SDRAM PCI Express x16 Integrated
 
Display Resolution:  2048 x 1536 (Graphics Card)
 
Color Support:  16.7 Million Colors 32-bit (Graphic Card)
 

Network & Communication
Network:  Intel 82566DM 10/100/1000Mbps Gigabit Ethernet IEEE 802.3ab Integrated
 

I/O Expansions
Expansion Bays:  5.25" External Removable Media Bay (1 Total/0 Free)
 
Expansion Slots:  Low-profile PCI (1 Total)
 

Input Devices
Keyboard:  PS/2 Keyboard
 
Pointing Device:  Optical PS/2 Mouse with Scrolling Wheel
 

Interfaces/Ports
Ports:  2 x 4-pin Type A USB 2.0 - USB Front
 

Software
Operating System:  Windows Vista
 

Power Description
Input Voltage:  110V AC
220V AC
 

Physical Characteristics
Case Style:  Small Form Factor
 
Dimensions:  3.95" Height x 13.3" Width x 14.9" Depth
 
Weight:  17.86 lb
 

Miscellaneous
Package Contents:  Business Desktop dc5800
Mouse
Keyboard
Restore CD

 
Green Compliance:  Yes
 
Green Compliance Certificate/Authority:  IEEE 1680
 

[Simsbaby]

More ram, at least 2GB. 512 isn't enough for nothin anymore. A bigger HD would also be worth buying if you intend to have your music and games all on the main HD.

Okay, I've decided on the following parts to upgrade it with.
DFI BloodIron P35-T2RL LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard $119.99
OCZ GameXStream OCZ700GXSSLI ATX12V 700W Power Supply $134.99
Western Digital Caviar GP WD7500AACS 750GB 5400 to 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive $139.99
I'm still looking for a sleek case. I love how the CoolerMaster Elite 331 looks. Is anyone here using this case?

[jsalemi]

Hi! I was concidering purchasing this p.c. I have a 550 watt power supply and an ati 1300 video card I can put into it. I am now using an Hp with Celeron processor. (UGH!) Will this be an improvement or do you have any suggestions? My price range is about $1,000.00. Thanks!!
Processor:  1 x Intel Pentium Dual-Core E2180 2GHz
Standard Memory:  512MB
Hard Drive:  80GB Serial ATA/300 7200 rpm
Graphics Controller:  Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100 256MB Shared DDR2 SDRAM PCI Express x16 Integrated
Expansion Slots:  Low-profile PCI (1 Total)
Ports:  2 x 4-pin Type A USB 2.0 - USB Front
Operating System:  Windows Vista

If they charge more than $300 - 400 for that, you're being ripped off.  It'll be better than what you have, but not by much. That processor is ancient by today's standards; you can buy one new for about $80, and for just about twice that you can get a much newer, faster Core 2 Duo processor. As simsbaby pointed out, you need more RAM; at least 2GB for Vista alone, so 3-4GB would be better.  And it takes nothing to fill a 80GB drive these days -- minimum should be at least 150GB for the system drive if you're planning on adding another internal or external drive, or 320GB if that'll be your only HD.  It has no expansion capabilities worth talking about, and since everything is coming in USB these days, you'd run out of those ports pretty fast too. Finally, you won't get much better performance from your ATI card if the machine doesn't have a PCIe X16 expansion slot, which it looks like it doesn't.

If you can put in a video card, you may seriously want to consider building your own machine (or getting a techie to help you ). If you look up in this thread, you'll find many messages about as system you can build yourself for well under $1,000 that will be much more capable, expandable, and enhanceable than that HP.