Building/Upgrading a PC for TS2

[mildlydisguised]

That's what I have heard too, in that the majority of games are only able to make use of two cores at the most.  I suppose multiple cores would be useful if you have Sims running at the same time as other applications.  I quite often have the game running as well as a couple of browsers, IRC chats and sometimes different P2P software too.  It is my (limited ) understanding that the additional applications will run off the additional cores and therefore prevent lag from infiltrating the game, but I am not entirely sure.

The problem I have is that although the cost difference between the Quad and the Duo is only £30 or so, the Quad compatible mobo is an additional £30 and I think the memory will need to be DDR3 instead of DDR2.  So it seems like the knock on effect of having a Quad CPU will end up being more expensive for all compatible components.  Which has now made me more tempted to go with the cheaper option of the E6600 although I am greedy and want MOAR cores!

[B]

Also [stupid question alert] the motherboards I have been looking at are Core 2 Duo compatible, I'm thinking that these would not be compatible with a quad core, am I right?

Not necessarily.  You need to check the socket type of your prospective motherboard.  It is most likely an LGA775 if you are looking at current Intel chips, which supports the Kentsfield processors just fine.  The number of cores is of little importance.  You may want to wait on buying a new processor for the moment, since Intel is on the verge of launching the 6x50 chips which will offer slight improvements over the current 6x00s.

[mildlydisguised]

Not necessarily.  You need to check the socket type of your prospective motherboard.  It is most likely an LGA775 if you are looking at current Intel chips, which supports the Kentsfield processors just fine.  The number of cores is of little importance.  You may want to wait on buying a new processor for the moment, since Intel is on the verge of launching the 6x50 chips which will offer slight improvements over the current 6x00s.

Interesting, thanks   Do you know how long before they launch?  I really need to get started on my build before my laptop falls apart.

[B]

Interesting, thanks   Do you know how long before they launch?  I really need to get started on my build before my laptop falls apart.

The launch is supposed to occur this month (July 22nd I believe).  However, I don't have good details on how much of the initial stock will be available for small system builders.  Generally, Dell, HP and the lot get most of the 0 day product, and consumers need to wait a bit longer. 

Of the fresh release I would be most tempted to look at the 6850 (a dual core).  It is expected to begin at around $266 (US) and I imagine NewEgg might offer some specials.  The chip comes with a stock clock of 3.0GHz, and the standard 4mb Cache.  I also expect it will overclock nicely (provided you get a decent aftermarket cooler).  The Kentsfield you mention above is not a good choice at this time, since Intel essentially slapped two dual cores on a single die which does not offer the benefits of a true quad core like the X6800.  Additionally, the benefit of a 4 cores to a gamer is small at best.  Dual core is the way to go until applications and games utilize the multiple cores (unless you absolutely must have the best, and then you would get the $1K extreme).

As to your time constraints, I would urge you to hold out as long as possible.  There is little point in buying a new processor the week before a better model hits the street. 

[mildlydisguised]

Thanks for the info, I will try to hold out as long as possible.  I'm sure another month or so won't hurt too much! 

I've been researching and the general consensus seems to be that quad cores are indeed no faster than dual cores unless you are running applications that use all cores simultaneously.  As TS2 is pretty much the only game I play and my only other uses would be browsing and IRC-ing, I think going with a quad would probably be overkill.

I will await the launch of the 6x50 chips with interest.

[J. M. Pescado]

There is no overkill, only "open fire" and "I need to reload".

[ZiggyDoodle]

I've got a Western Digital Raptor 150GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache Serial ATA150 sitting in my Newegg shopping cart. 

Anyone have any experience with this drive? 

[B]

It's probably the best value in a 10K drive on the market right now.  You will not be dissapointed.  I use WD for all my high performance drives, and will continue to do for the foreseeable future.  Just make sure you have adaquate cooling in the case since anything over 7200RPM can get pretty hot.

[ZiggyDoodle]

Thanks, B.  Am installing it in a Dell 8400; added a second fan when I switched graphics cards and replaced the PSU. 

The rig has good air circulation and is cleaned regularly, so I shouldn't have any problems.  Maybe it will help heat my den this winter.

Edited August 17, 2007, to add that I've been running the WD Raptor drive for a couple weeks and it is quite awesome.  No heat issues nor is the drive as noisy as some claim.  OS boots in less than a minute.

[KatEnigma]

My raptor drive is the noisiest thing on my computer, and I still don't think it's very noisy at all.  Besides, I like hearing it tick- sometimes it's the only way to tell that it's doing something.

[witch]

Same, as far as the Raptor drives go, personally I like to hear the chatter of the HDDs.

[Hegelian]

Just to provide some perspective, there probably isn't an IDE or SATA drive on the market as loud as your typical SCSI server drive, and I've got three 10K RPM SCSI drives in my PC. They run warm (I have a drive-bay fan) and they are comparatively loud, even at idle, but they are fast, faster than any IDE drive and, even though they are older models, faster than most if not all SATA drives. The speed advantage is more clear when more than one drive is being accessed at the same time, as the SCSI bus was designed for concurrent I/O, which the IDE/ATA bus was not.

That said, the next machine will use SATA drives, which eliminate most of the deficiencies of IDE and incorporate most of the advantages of SCSI but with lower power consumption, heat, and noise, and significantly lower prices per gigabyte. I built the core of this current machine in 1999, but while there is not a single original part other than the IBM keyboard, its transformation over time was such that sticking with the SCSI was the most cost-effective solution at those points where decisions had to be made.

For what it's worth, if I were building a new machine today, I would still opt for three hard drives. Assuming money wasn't an issue, I would choose a 10K Raptor for the boot drive and a couple mid-sized (~200-300 gig) 7200-RPM drives for apps and storage. This has to do with my particular needs. I like to keep the Windows paging file on a physical drive different from the boot drive for the small performance gain this provides. I also like to keep my applications on a separate drive from the OS for housekeeping purposes, and so that nuking the boot drive doesn't wipe all the app data (even though the apps need to be reinstalled after a clean OS install); also, there may be a slight (if imperceptible) performance gain by loading apps from a separate drive, because most apps also access files on the Windows drive when starting up. Finally, Photoshop prefers its "scratch file" to be on a physical drive different from the one that holds the Windows paging file.

I generally use the D: drive for apps and the Photoshop scratch file, and the E: drive for the paging file and file storage (docs, images, email and temp directories, download archives, etc.). I wouldn't fool around with RAID configurations—the real-world performance gains provided by some configurations aren't significant enough to offset the potential downsides (i.e., a single drive failure takes out your installation and all your data).

For most everything you may want to know about hard drives, check out The Storage Review.

[Mirelly]

OK I'm looking at a long overdue hardware upgrade on a limited budget.

Currently using:

AMD Athlon XP 2800+
GeForce FX 5600 256MB
1GB DDR400
XP Pro

The FX 5600 is on its last legs (I replaced its crappy fan with a passive heatsink, last year and -- along with an upgrade to the case cooling, cut noise and improved (reduced) gpu overheating, but I am getting tired of the crap performance and want to upgrade without spending a fortune I don't have.

After a long look I figure my money is best invested in something like the ATI X 1950 Pro (I like to double all the numbers when I upgrade and the ATI chipset gives me double of everything the 5600 offered). So I am looking at something like:

    * Gigabyte M55-S S3
    * AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ (Brisbane)
    * 2GB 800 MHz DDR2 RAM
    * Zalman 480 watt PSU
    * Sapphire x1950 Pro 512MB PCIe

Which I can get from techeads.co.uk for under £350. Or can I do even better with my money? (It's a lot better than getting an AGP version of the 1950 + a wattier PSU and a gig of DDR, which would cost almost £200 and be obsolete before it was even upacked!)

[B]

You definitely need the upgrade to PCI-E.  I have a couple of thoughts about each of the other components, which need to be taken with a grain of salt since I am a huge hardware snob:

• MoBo: It has 4 PCI-E x1 slots (for which not many components are currently available), but only 1 x16.  Personally, I prefer a board that offers SLI or Crossfire capabilities, since it maximizes upgrade potential.  Of course, you can't find anything cheap that can manage both slots at x16, so if money is a real issue you might do well settling for less.  Apart from that, Gigabyte is a great brand, and tend to do well with the BIOS revisions.
• Processor: I prefer Intel chips, but I also recognize they tend to be a bit pricier.  If you want to stick with AMD, you might do a bit better with the 2.6GHz Windsor alternative (which is only about $15 more in the US), but again, that's entirely dependent on your budget.
• RAM: Without knowing the latency and brand, I can't really say anything about this choice.  If it's a good brand, I'm sure you'll be fine.
• PSU: If it's an option, give some serious consideration to the Silverstone ST50EF Plus.  It's 500 watts continuous, and actually costs less than the Zalman where I live.  Plus, it's often recommended as the budget builder's PSU, due to it's price, reliability, and efficiency.
• GPU: At this point in time, I'm not sure avoiding DX10 cards is wise.  The midrange 8000s and x2000s have come down in price considerably, and will give you similar performance to the 1950pro.  Plus, with the new NVidias due to launch in a couple of months, you're brand new system will be two generations behind.  Again, it's up to you, but I'd be a little wary throwing $125 (US) at a card that will be going obselete in the next couple of years, especially if you're on a budget.

Overall, I think your setup looks pretty good on the performance front.  The price tag seems a bit high, since over here I could get a comparable system for just over $500 (about 250 pounds if I'm not mistaken).  Looking at NewEgg (which, sadly, does not deliver overseas) the Processor is $109, the PSU is right around $100, the MoBo is not carried (but other boards with similar specs are under $100), value RAM is going for just over $100, and the GPU can be found as low as $125.  Could you give me the breakdown for your components?

[Mirelly]

Hey, thanks for the input; on the mobo especially. I'll look again at that. It's the motherboard I am most concerned with. It must have upgradabilty, so a second X16 PCIe slot seems like excellent advice. I aim to upgrade every 2-3 years and aim to use the best of the "older" technology that has emerged since my last upgrade.

As for prices I don't think that direct exchange rates are the best way of comparing prices country to country. In the US a buck is viewed by the shopper in the same was a pound is in the UK. There are certain barriers, the breaching of which cause the consumer is apt to respond negavitely. Examples are the price of a cup of coffee or a gallon of petrol.

I'll probably shop around more aggressively for the components, especially the graphics card. I've seen the X1950 as low as £67 ... but there's always the trustability of the seller. A bargain's no good if it doesn't work and the seller's after sales service is poor.

Prices:
Motherboard: £48
CPU and fan:  £69
RAM:            £67
PSU:             £52
x1950:          £100

Like I said, prices are annoying. I often notice that US sites' prices convert to UK prices at bargain rates, but the only time I ever tried it I got badly stung with the import tax. OK it was only 17.5% but it virtually eliminated the saving after allowing for the extra shipping cost.

[B]

The prices seem pretty close to what I see over here.  The RAM is a bit more, but this is probably a good thing since more expensive RAM will generally have better timing and more lasting value.  The biggest difference is that the 1950 you are looking at is about $75 more. 

The MoBo issue is an interesting one.  It wouldn't cost you that much extra to step up to a board that comes with 2 x16 slots (and the capability to run at either 2 times x16, or 1 times x16 and 1 times x8).  However, actually using a Crossfire configuration will run you quite a bit more, since you'd need another GPU, a better PSU, and (in some cases) additional cooling solutions.  I think it's worth the extra cash, but your financial situation might be a bit different. 

In general, the most economic way I have found to keep a system up to date is as follows:

• Case: Do not upgrade unless absolutely critical
• PSU: Invest in a good 750 watt, 56Amp (or greater) supply early on that has a good warrenty.  Don't upgrade again until it starts to go bad (estimated 5+ years)
• Hard Drive: Keep two on board at all times, and upgrade the older of the two every other year
• Processor: Upgrade every 2 years (market permitting)
• MoBo: Upgrade when another component requires it
• GPU: Upgrade once a year
• RAM: This is a bit tricky, since the amount "needed" keeps going up.  In general, I buy when I see a good deal.

Using the above method, you should only spend between three and five hundred dollars (US) a year on components (assuming you are buying a high end GPU, but not the best available).  Most years, you'll only need the GPU and one major component.  On occasion, the upgrade of a processor will require a MoBo upgrade, which might run a bit closer to $500.  I find this method far superior to the general strategy of simply getting a new computer every few years.  They cost about the same (assuming you can get a relatively high end machine for $1500) and a new system tends to go obselete rather quickly these days.  By contrast, the upgrade cycle I outline above ensures most components are as close to cutting edge as possible.  For someone on a tighter budget, the above strategy can be tweaked accordingly.

 

[Mirelly]

OK thanks a lot for your input, B.

I took your advice on the motherboard and went for:

Gigabyte GA-M57SLI-S4 nForce 570 SLi (Socket AM2) PCI-E DDR2 ATX : £52.80

Hiper HPU-4M580 Type M CrossFire Certified 580W ATX2.2: £47:50

The memory is by Corsair btw ... it was the best price I could find for a so-called matched pair. It had some good ratings compared with similar priced products.

I will probably upgrade again in less than a year with a second x1950 and some more ram before I'll need to consider trading the cpu up to a meatier model.

Really appreciated the input.

[SarahKjrsten]

I'm thinking about buying Bon Voyage and playing the sims on my laptop again. I know I can handle the base game on my laptop (not the best graphics in the world and load times are sometimes long), but my question is, will I be able to handle Bon Voyage, and if yes, could I get away with Seasons too? If it would make the game too laggy, then I'd skip out on one or the other ep. Sadly I'm a poor college student, so I'm saving for a new computer instead of upgrades for my laptop (which I got in 2003)

My Specs: (Dell Inspiron 1100)

XP Home Edition
Intel Celeron CPU 2.00GHz
638 RAM
Page File: 550 used of 1008 MB avaliable
dx version: Direct X 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)

Intel 82845G/GL/GE/PE/GV Graphics Controller
Chip type: Intel 82845G grapnis controller
Aprox. total memory: 64 MB

Main driver: ialmrnt5.dll
Version: 6.14.0010.4342

[J. M. Pescado]

You don't have a computer, you have a doorstop. The only components you have of any worth are the hard drives. And those probably aren't worth much either.

Celery = crap, Intel video = crap. None of them are worth money, so any money you paid for them is simply wasted. Next time, get a real computer, not a doorstop. If you're that broke, sell your ass.

[KatEnigma]

No, your laptop would never be able to handle Seasons or BV- even if you didn't have a Celeron, all that graphics chip would get you is flashing red things. Until you can get a new computer, stick with the base game + OFB.

[ScoobyDoo]

You want a doorstop!? I was running Sims 2 on a P2@450 with a mere 384MB using a geforce 2 gts.    Sims 2 wasn't that horrible, ok it was bad.. but not nearly as bad as trying to do mental ray rendering in max. 

[B]

If you had $500, and had to replace both, can you get a good motherboard now, and a modest CPU?  Or replace both on the cheap?  I did wan't to have a board I could use with a new chip eventually, so I wanted to avoid buying a board and memory that I'm only going to use for maybe a year.

Any suggestions?

It's absolutely possible to get a good mobo and current generation midrange processor for $500.  Since these are apparently the only components getting replaced at the time, I need your other system specs before making any suggestions (in order to ensure the components I advise you to get are compatible). 

Also, since you're doing mobo and CPU at the same time, it would be possible to switch from AMD to Intel if you want.  Please let us know if this is an option you'd entertain.

[KatEnigma]

Crossfire and SLI are two completely different standards. I looked this up when I was looking to build a couple months ago. There are a few rare boards that can do either, but not many right now.

[B]

Sure, I'll consider Intel, too - I just don't know as much about those boards.  I have a new 500W PSU standing by - It's marked SLI ready, but I don't see why it wouldn't be Crossfire compatilble either. 

Be careful with low wattage cards that claim dual GPU capabilities.  I'm guessing your supply could power two midrange cards in SLI or Crossfire, but it would definitely not be able to run two high end cards.  I'll talk more about a dual GPU setup below.

I don't know if I'd go to two boards eventually, but I'd like to have the option - only the 500W probably wouldn't cut it by then anyway.

To get the full benefit of a two card configuration, you need to have a mobo capable of piping each card at x16.  Most boards that come with two PCIE16 slots do not have this ability, managing at most x24 between the two cards.  As a result, you end up getting into situations where one card runs at x16, and the other gets throttled to x8, or (even worse) both cards are throttled to x8.  If you are willing to get a top shelf board, you will have the ability to run both cards at x16, which can be rather spectacular (I've got two 8800GTX in SLI, and I have yet to encounter a game that won't run at 50fps or greater with everything maxed).  Just keep an eye on this when buying your upgrades.

Obviously, the AGP graphics have to go too - I can justify going over budget on a midrange PCIE card and memory, as long as I can use them going forward.  But I don't want to be stuck with say, DDR2 600 or graphics that are underwhelming on a larger monitor a year or two out.

Yes, the AGP will be gone.  Fortunately, you can pick up a 7600GT or x1650 for under $100 which will both give you reasonable performance while you save up for a future generation card (the G92 is due out this winter, and should be an excellent choice if Nvidia hasn't screwed things up royally).  Everything I list below is at least DDR2 800.  Your RAM should still be compatible, although you might want to check with the manufacturer to confirm. 

With that out of the way, here are my mobo suggestions (in order of attractiveness to me).  Please keep in mind that I generally prefer Intel boards, since I run with a 6800 processor.  I've also included one AMD option that I've heard good things about.

• Bearlake X- Of course, I'm going to start with a board that does not actually exist yet.  Bearlake X is due out in the next month or so, and is going to be the first board on the market that supports PCIE 2.0.  It will take DDR3 1066 or DDR 2 800.  The board will allow full bandwidth for both GPUs.  Unfortunately, I can't give you an idea on price at the moment, since no partners have given a pre-release notice (as far as I know).  It will probably be somewhere in the 200-300 dollar range on release.  If you want to be prepared for the future, this would be an ideal motherboard for you.
• ASUS Striker- This is the best Intel mobo on the market right now, and it's the one I use for my gaming system.  The cost is high ($300) and so it might be pushing your budget a little (refer to the processors I suggest lower down the page).  Read the spec page at NewEgg to get an idea of the features, and you'll see that this has everything you could want.  A big advantage with this board is that it comes with an IDE connector.  Nowadays, many boards only support SATA.  If you want the best enthusiast board currently on the market, get a Striker.
• EVGA nforce 680i- Since entering the motherboard market, Nvidia has impressed quite a few people.  Their boards are well made, and do extremely well with two GPUs in SLI (although you would not have good Crossfire capabilities).  Like the Striker, this board also comes with an IDE connector.  For reference, it uses an Intel socket.
• ASUS 580X Crossfire- This is the only AMD socketed board I feel comfortable recommending.  Although I do not have any first hand experience with it, one of my buddies is an AMD fanboy, and this is the mobo he uses.  It is also the cheapest board on my list ($120) and will be outdated sooner than any of the others.  However, if you want to stick with an AMD processor, this is probably your best bet.  It also will support your IDE HD.

 

Now that we've done mobos, let's look at processors.  Keep in mind that the first three boards above use the Intel LGA 775 socket, and so you'd need a Core 2 chip for them.  The AMD board has an X2 socket.  In general, I suggest you figure out how much can be spent on the actual computer after deciding on a motherboard.  Get the best you can afford.  A couple of quick things to consider (all good buys for the money):

• Intel C2D 6600- An excellent buy for $230 bucks.
• Intel C2D 6400- Best Intel card you can get at the $200 mark.  Overclocks well.
• AMD X2 6000- Again, I don't have much experience with AMD processors, but I've heard good things about this one.  It can be procured for $165.

Keep in mind, these are not necessarily the best processors on the market, but they do give the best performance for the amount you pay.  In your situation, I'd seriously consider the EVGA board with the Intel 6600 (cost to you: $400 after rebate).  Both components are relatively high end, and you should get excellent performance for at least three years (provided the other pieces of your system get updated in good time).  Of course, if you stick with AMD, you can get decent performance for quite a bit less (the mobo and X2 come to just under $300).  Like I said, I prefer Intel, but your mileage may vary.  If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask.


Edit to correct some confusing statements.

[simsfreq]

In general, which video card make would be the best to run The Sims 2 on? I'm currently using an NVidia but there seems to be a lot of problems with these cards. Also, what kind of processor speed am I looking at to run a video card that's the high end of affordable? (Say ideally under £250 or $500)

No, I don't know what motherboard I have but if you could just give me a rough idea of what to look for I know someone who will be able to help me put all the information together into something meaningful.