Apologizing interaction working backwards

[MaxisManiac]

It seems that the "Apologize" option in Sims 2 is not working correctly. If I recall, back in an E3 video, they demonstrated how Sim A cheats on Sim B, so Sim A apologizes to Sim B. However...

Mortimer finds Dina cheating on him with Don, so now Mortimer hates Dina. But, Mortimer is the only one who can apologize. This makes no sense at all, especially since he did nothing wrong. Is there a fix for this? Forgive me if there already is, but if there isn't, then could you make it so that if Sim A is hated by another Sim, Sim A can apologize to Sim B? This way, the cheater (Dina) can apologize to the cheated-on (Mortimer), because Dina won't lose relationship points after the affair, and if she does, it will be from the slap afterwards, but she still cannot apologize.

ALSO, it seems this whole Gossiping thing isn't very well made. Is it possible for certain key memories to be gossiped about? Like, giving each gossipable memory a certain level of importance? This way, Alexander can tell Cassandra about the affair he witnessed between Don and Dina, instead of telling her each time that Mary-Sue burnt some pancakes.

[Bane~Child]

The way I see it is that Mortimer was the one who initiated the 'hate' action, which supersedes the 'cheating' and may be the last interaction that matters.  He would not be forgiving Dina for cheating, but for being hateful towards her.  Have you noticed if Don has the apologize action available in favor of Mortimer, for his part in the affair?

I don't know about the gossip thing, as I don't deliberately queue my Sims to do this.

[gillies]

Bad memories seem to be used for gossip as opposed to nothing (just the face of someone they know will be in the bubble, followed by no bubble, then the same face again) which is what they seem to use the rest of the time - affairs are always good memories which might be why they never gossip about them.

[Bane~Child]

On the few times I have seen Sims autonomously gossip, I have seen the subject Sim in the thought bubble, but it seems more random than just good vs bad memories.  The Sims at the center of the gossip aren't particularly gossip worthy, except that they happen to be in the presence of the two doing the gossiping.  This also could be because it is the 'nothing' that you mentioned and is the subsequent default in the absence of a bad memory as you say.  In any case, gossiping is used as a means of relationship building.

[laeshanin]

I use the gossip interaction as a way of building relationships really quickly if the sim is a friend of the other, as it saves time. All that chatting...dull.

The apologise stuff has always irritated me as it seems to be the wrong way round and it's the sim that hasn't done a damn thing who has to do the apologising.  In real life the only apology a cheating scumbag would get from me is a swift kick to the danglies. Now that would be a great hack! 

[J. M. Pescado]

Well, see, the problem with sim interaction tests is that they're unilateral. The fundamental philosophy is that sims don't have any awareness of what the other party thinks of them, and can only use their own relationship level as a proxy.

Traditionally, I have kept to this assumption with the exception of, for control macros, "...unless the player would be able to see the relationship in its entireity."

Therefore, when a party cheats, the OFFENDED party's relationship drops majorly. The cheater, however, doesn't change his opinion. Thus, his relationship is high, and believes nothing is wrong, while the offended party sees a low relationship, and therefore, has the "Apologize" action available.

This can be trivially changed, but its availability rules would then potentially violate this standard.

[Inge]

Well, the Sims have the ability to know what the other sim thinks of them, so what's wrong with using it?

[syberspunk]

Well, see, the problem with sim interaction tests is that they're unilateral. The fundamental philosophy is that sims don't have any awareness of what the other party thinks of them, and can only use their own relationship level as a proxy.

Traditionally, I have kept to this assumption with the exception of, for control macros, "...unless the player would be able to see the relationship in its entireity."

Therefore, when a party cheats, the OFFENDED party's relationship drops majorly. The cheater, however, doesn't change his opinion. Thus, his relationship is high, and believes nothing is wrong, while the offended party sees a low relationship, and therefore, has the "Apologize" action available.

This can be trivially changed, but its availability rules would then potentially violate this standard.

Well... it seems fairly reasonable for this interaction to be an exception, in order for it to actually make sense and/or be realistic. Although, we've already pointed out how so much of the Sims is illogical anyways.

I think that, in this case, it should not only check if the relationship is low/bad to begin with, but maybe it would take into account if the offended party has a low relationship and the offending party had a memory of getting caught cheating or making enemies with or any negative memory that is worth apologizing for or makes sense to apologize for. In that way, the apologizing action wouldn't just show up for all other sims that have a lower relationshi. It should only show up under certain conditions where the offending sim has an actual reason to apologize for. And it certainly doesn't make any sense for the offended sim to have to apologize to the offending party.

Anyways, just a thought of how that should work. I definately would be in favor of a hack to fix this and make it more realistic.

Ste

[Ancient Sim]

I have never seen any option to apologise for any of my Sims.  I've seen them apologise autonomously when they've offended someone, but that's all.  Usually it's the nice ones apologising for reacting badly when someone was nasty to THEM, which I always think is rather sweet.  Not that it does them any good, of course.

[ZephyrZodiac]

As to autonomously gossipping and nothing really appearing in the thought bubbles except a sim, I had an instance with Kuma, who was living with my sim, Lucrezie de la Mort, and he'd been on a Community lot when another of my sims was there.  Kumai started teasing him (this was before Uni) and generally upsetting him, which ended in a fight which Kumai, of course, won.  Anyway, when he got home he told Lucrezie ALL about it, and they both nearly died laughing!

[Brynne]

I saw the first instance yesterday of gossiping about someone failing to save someone from the GR. I'd never seen that before.
I remember posting about the backward apologizing back at MTS2, and it still drives me nuts. Definitely wouldn't mind a change in that behavior.

[Zeljka]

As to autonomously gossipping and nothing really appearing in the thought bubbles except a sim, I had an instance with Kuma, who was living with my sim, Lucrezie de la Mort, and he'd been on a Community lot when another of my sims was there. Kumai started teasing him (this was before Uni) and generally upsetting him, which ended in a fight which Kumai, of course, won. Anyway, when he got home he told Lucrezie ALL about it, and they both nearly died laughing!

I would love to see something like that, mine mostly gossip about burnt meals or some sim peeing their pants... the closest thing I've had to an 'interesting' gossip was when a kid came and asked an adult to be read to. I cancelled the 'read to' action and he went straight to the kid's mom and they started laughing about the kid.

[ZephyrZodiac]

I guess you have to create a situation which they think is gossip-worthy!

[RainbowTigress]

I thought it was funny when Tank Grunt spun up a want to Apologize to Ripp.  They of course are mortal enemies, which I encouraged.   After letting him satisfy that want, he then wanted to Win a fight with Ripp.

[J. M. Pescado]

Buzz Grunt was even more weird. I had Tank get married to Kristen Singles, and right after they returned from the honeymoon thingus, I moved them to new digs (the Grunt home as being utterly unsuitable for raising children), leaving the house to Ripp.

Right there on the new curb, Buzz rolled up some very interesting wants: Beat up his new daughter-in-law. Except that they were friends and the options wasn't even available. I'm not sure *WHAT* triggers that want.

[gali]

Like you - that's how Buzz "shows" his love.... Buzz never wants to flirt, or play, or appreciate - when he loves somebody. only to "win a game against", and "beat"....

[Inge]

I am obviously not understanding the conversation bubbles.  How can you tell if they're talking about someone peeing their pants?

[Brynne]

I am obviously not understanding the conversation bubbles.  How can you tell if they're talking about someone peeing their pants?

When one sim is gossiping to another, in the gossiper's speech bubbles you'll see the crossed out toilet (like the bladder desperation symbol) followed by the face of the sim who did the peeing.

[ZephyrZodiac]

And it's really funny when the less outgoing ones whisper "Shush!" when they've finished telling the tale!

[Zeljka]

yes, because they're usually gossiping about whichever Sim is in the other room...


Same as passing out... my sims find bladder and energy failure the most hilarious topics of conversation ever. Guess I do need to give them something more exciting to talk about.

[ZephyrZodiac]

Well, Castor said Shush when he told Allegra some gossip (couldn't see what, his darned green thing was in the way!) and they were alone in the house, so he was presumably telling her NOT to pass it on!

[veilchen]

I thought it was really funny when two of them gossiped about another sims demotion. They didn't even know the poor sim, nor did either one work in the same career. I guess word does spread around.

[ZephyrZodiac]

Maybe they read it in the paper?  they always seem so keen to read it, there must be something good in it!

[Ancient Sim]

Well recently, Nervous was SO excited about the fact that Vidcund had burnt the dinner, he told Pascal about it three times in a row, without a breath in between.  Of course, it could have been three separate occasions and three separate dinners he was referring to, but what does it matter?  One burnt dinner is as good as another to a Sim.  Why DON'T they spread gossip about affairs, anyway?  They definitely pick these things up when they witness them, so why don't they spread it around?  I've even seen spouses pass on info to each other about their infidelities, but there's never any response.

[ZephyrZodiac]

I suppose the folks at Maxis couldn't manage the programming!