About individualism in sims, obsessive/stupid behaviour, mods and feeling lonely

[Nadira]

Don´t read this post if you hate long posts and/or dislike personal opinions and styles of game-playing different from yours.
I have other interests besides playing PC-games. And I play other games besides "The Sims2". But this is a wonderful game for a certain mood, which I have been in fairly often recently. And like Motoki once stated in a discussion about why we all buy this awfully bugged game - because up to now it´s the only one in its category.
I like playing with free-will-on and watch my sims develop, and since the basic game I specially have taken a liking to - sometimes unexpected - individualistic behaviour. I avoid to spoil my game by risky experiments or risky downloads, which might cause me to loose one of my sims. I would have stayed in my chamber and be playing happily without ever visiting a forum if it were not for bugs and what I consider for myself to be annoying behaviour.
Leaving bugs out - I was really fine with the basic game. There were some obsessive items (especially that stupid game I consider to be something like bingo - and I hate bingo - swings and the piano - but that could sometimes be fun, I had a child who had maxed out her creativity before getting teenager, she was a very special kid), but it was easy to play without them and I accepted that at all my parties I had at least one if not all my guests in swimming-suits.... And I had a lot of unexpected individual developments in life-styles and relationships.
University seemed to offer new options. It was a disappointment, even when patched it remained awfully bugged and it also brought new obsessions and annoyances. Endless wishes for entering college societies, Bubblemakers, and especially training centers where everyone worked out until stinking and then immediately left the lot, ignoring my creative lotscaping with whirlpools (but they still were crazy about those on residential lots), pools and mensas and ignoring every possibility for socialising. Libraries where no one read if you put just one single other usable item there. Community PC´s never being used by students. Ennervating whishes for instruments in dorms which then where played by extremely uncreative dormies the whole night through, when sold only ending up with the wish for rebuying them (sometimes day by day blocking 2-3 of 4 wantslots)..... After I had taken trust in some modders (I hate to put something in my game that I am not able to understand and control myself, and unluckily I am not gifted in that way) I got addicted to downloading mods from Pescado, TwoJeffs and Inge. It was the only way to make this game worthwhile to play. Deinstalling the add-on? I thought about it, but there also were those 6 wantslots... I wondered why no modder ever tackled the nuisance of the obsessing communal training machines - did really no one mind besides me or was it just too difficult to do? (It has been done recently, only after OFB came out, now the non playables finish the training before stinking but still most of them instantly leave the lot even if they could satisfy their needs there...)
NL - finally something more to do!!!-?? More variation, more possibilities for individualistic behaviour, more possibilities for developing relationships!!! -??? Oh no - stupid lifetimewishes for the ever same jobs or more megalomanic wishes like having hundreds of xxxxdates... The new type of sims, supposedly to be fun addicted, ending up with a set of the same 6-8 wishes every day once or twice (if fulfilled). Or ending up with grilled cheese... And more addictive items with sims peeing themselves or leaving community lots with their needs too low to do anything else. And - most of my sims - even those from pre-addon-times - more and more seemed to loose their individualistic traits! Every household sooner or later ended up with the same set of wishes, and most sims ended up with using the same items if left unattended. Of course I CAN control them, I CAN deny them their wishes, I CAN ignore their needs - but is it what I want? Back to the boring control mode of Sims1 after having explored a wonderful, unbelievable world of possible individualistic behaviour of simple game-generated personalities? My downloadssection started to overboard with mods making the game more attractive to play. But - there is not a solution for everything! I decided - no more addon, definitley not!!!! I quit playing for longer times. But then- there is that special mood .... and I was back again.....
But then the jubilant posts on OFB! Finally something new, something exciting (and a possibility to spend that simeoleons that had been piling up)! And I bought it.... for that special mood ... I have not had time to do extensive testings (and what´s a game which you have to test more extensively with every add-on?), but what I found out was frustrating. Heaps of unsensible, unintelligent behaviour! Put a coffebar on a lot, have an employee - everyone is addicted to drinking coffee. Let the owner be barista - no one is interested. Offer styling - everyone is drawn to it, considering to buy - and then having it done leaving the lot without getting interested in anything else. Offer something to buy in your styling shop - no one will be interested in getting a styling anymore, everyone will be in for shopping. Offer shopping - no one will drink coffee, eat something - even when they are hungry, customers will ignore provided food and instead leave the lot. Heaps of quarreling and fighting (yes, some of it is realistic, but need it be so dominant?). Give a party at your homebusinesslot when the business is closed - even when closed everyone will start complaining and relationsships will go down and down and down... (thanks to ausosocialise, my sims have kept some good relationsships with their neighbours...). I have not yet had time to visit a community restaurant with one of my sims - but I read the thread on obsessive eating behaviour spoiling all fun on previously nice lots... There is much more to mention, but my post is already too oversized ....
Of course, there are new mods. And new modders on the "market". And - perhaps even a dummy like me could learn something about modding. But what´s the sense of a game which in itself - without all those helpful mods - is not interesting to play except for someone who has the intelligence and imagination of a cucumber (sorry if I hurt someone, but that´s how I am feeling at the moment)? Why do the intelligent players crowd here at MATY´s - because many state they simply cannot play without mods? Is OFB just one of the many possible reasons that might- just might, just speculation, because I don´t know anything about her personally - have driven Inge to quit so suddenly and finally?
Of course I know there are all those helpful answers to posts like this - do this, do that, try this, try that, there is a hack here, a mod there - I am not lacking of imagination, that´s not my problem. But the structure of the game with all add-ons installed does not allow to develop anything in the way I would like it to be - simple logical "normal" behaviour which leaves open space for individualistic traits that conform to a Gauss-curve - a lot of sims falling into the medium category, but a certain variance is always included and extreme behaviours are rare but possible. A big chance missed once and forever, a great (and still unique) idea for a very special game gone with the wind (but people are moaning for pets - what the hell for? More annoying behaviours? And senseless wishes to be modified?).
I have considered deinstalling all add-ons. Perhaps I will. Or I will quit playing the game totally. There are other options in life - even for that special mood - I will go and find one. But I am sad. I liked the game and its totally new aspects of gameplaying. I liked the idea. I liked the people posting here. I felt at home. Now I am feeling lonely since I have the feeling eveyone here except me is happy with OFB (besides this or that complaint). Perhaps I am just an alien - or just an old dinosaur prone to die out ...
There is no need to answer this post (although eveyone is welcome to do so). I just had the urge to get something off that´s been on my mind often lately which my non-sims-playing friends would not understand if I talked to them about it. In fact - the only fried who was playing regularily, sometimes even more addicted to it than I ever was, has quit after OFB, being so diasppointed ....

[Myth]

I'm sorry, I'm blonde.  Was this a rant, a question or just thinking outloud? 

[Mike]

Meh, I don't feel like reading it. I have to massage my brain first. I'll read it later.

[Simlover]

Me 3

[Nadira]

 :-*Thanks, that´s just exactly what I needed. You made me certain - it´s the right time to quit playing the game and visiting this place (yes, one casual annoyance less). This game definitely NEVER was designed for people with a very queer mind like mine that goes beyond one page of A4paper.

[Ruann]

Sims were never made to behave like normal people.  They behave like Sims.  Which is to say that they are very neurotic and have the worst case of ADD that you have ever seen.  I do like watching Sims wander about with free-will after I'm done telling them what I want them to do.

And, well, your post was WAY too long.  That alone is a reason most people won't read it.  And you didn't break up your paragraphs very well (two carriage returns will make a nice new paragraph break).  Plus it rambles a wee bit too much. 

I could have summed it up as "I'm getting a very 'blah' feeling about playing this game and hanging out with people who Mod for it.  I don't want to take away all my Sims freedom, but I don't want my game to break a bazillion ways from Sunday just because I breathed funny.  Maybe I should take a break from the game?"

[Akharra]

Nadira, I feel your frustration. The game gets less and less logical with each expansion pack. I Love The Sims2. I am a true addict. I like the idea of OFB, but it is so disconnected from the previous expansions, that skills and University have almost no meaning. I have almost every hack on this site and a few from other sources. (Shhh!) It has made the game playable for me. I also cheat alot. I think the key is imagination. Make up stories and characters and pretend that degree really matters etc.

I will continue to play and will probably buy future expansion packs, but I agree with you. After a while it seems like I am playing the same sims over and over. You are not alone!

[Sagana]

Don´t read this post if you hate long posts and/or dislike personal opinions and styles of game-playing different from yours.

Well, long doesn't bother me (yes I read the whole post) and I enjoy opinions and hearing about different styles. But I know, that kind of comment generally means "don't read this if you're going to disagree with me, I only want to hear from people that agree/want to play my way, etc.

But what´s the sense of a game which in itself - without all those helpful mods - is not interesting to play except for someone who has the intelligence and imagination of a cucumber (sorry if I hurt someone, but that´s how I am feeling at the moment)?

Yep, there it is. Either you like what I like or there's something wrong with you.

There's lots and lots of things in the world I don't have, but intelligence and imagination aren't among them. OFB is perfect for people with lots of imagination. I dunno what it is about 'botting (that is, doing everything possible to not have any user input and then watching what the sims live as if it were a movie or tv show) that is supposed to be particularly intelligent and imaginative, but don't care if you play that way. Why *exactly* are you putting down people for playing some other way? No, my feelings aren't hurt - I just think it's silly to put down people for enjoying something you don't. <shrug>

There's a  couple of threads in the "challenge" section that you might find interesting if what you enjoy is seeing what sims do on their own. If you like the game better without the EPs, by all means deinstall them and play what you like. If you don't like the game anymore at all, well quit playing it.

There are other people around that don't care much for OFB - they've posted here and on other popular sims sites. There's some that (like me) don't care for Uni and others that like that one the best. I'm sure there are likeminded people out there if that's what you're looking for. What exactly are you looking for? Are you hoping people will care if you don't like the game anymore, maybe beg you to stay? Maybe Maxis would - if there were a lot of you, but people that do like it aren't very likely to.

And I doubt Inge quit modding because she thinks OFB is a bad EP, but maybe, who knows? I do think it's kind of pitiful to use her in your rant if you don't know that's what happened :p

[BlueSoup]

I'm pretty sure Inge didn't quit modding because of OFB.

I read your entire post.

I just don't have much to say about it.  Don't play OFB if you don't like it.  Go back to base-game only if you liked that and it got you all fired up.  I haven't really played OFB all that much, still just building up my neighbourhood after it 'splodied (again  ), so I still have yet to really try all the features.  Hell, I still haven't tried all the NL features. 

I'm content to chug along at my own pace and play how I want.  I try challenges, and storywriting, and lot-building.  Maybe one day even movie-making, although as much fun as I hear it is (and how good some people are), I just don't get into the movies much.

Play how and what you want, and if it's not doing it for you anymore, take a break.  Before I got NL, I took like a 3-month break.  Worked like a charm to get back into it again.

[BeckerCheez]

I try to play other games besides the Sims 2 in order to keep that "magic" alive.  Sometimes I do take long breaks from the game when I feel bored or frustrated with it.  Heck, I was even unsure of getting OFB because I did not know how I would like it (turns out, it's actually alright, and a few of my houses have home businesses).  I had to get rid of one neighborhood that I made and created a new one from scratch.  I created a story thread from it, which keeps it fresh for me and adds a bit of depth.  I also have a tendency to make more Sims when I'm tired of the ones I have, so I bounce from house to house and play different Sims every day.  One day it will be Chloe's house with her having Don's illegitimate baby, the next day it will be Don's house, with him juggling a demanding wife with a business and a sloth child.  I took a different approach and now I'm not feeling like the game is a chore.   

[Nec]

Most of my sims have kept their individuality despite all the hacks and expansions...as long as I keep them at home or take them out somewhere not sim-owned. Perhaps you were expecting more and didn't get it so it seems like you got less?

There are countless - actually limitless -  ways to play the game, and I go off on a new tangent every few days or so. I temporarily forget about a number of my sims, but go back to them eventually.

[syberspunk]

I read your entire post too. Well... skimmed most of it.

I think the 'problem' was how you typed it out. It kind of feels all bunched up and disorganized. You sort of have paragraphs... but the fact that you don't use use carriage returns made it very hard to read. 

Anyways, I kind of understand how you feel. A lot of people seemed lackluster about Uni and NL. And to me... oddly, tons of people are clamoring about OFB. Now I honestly haven't even played those aspects myself but I'm a super slooooooooooowww player. As for OFB, there seems to be a lot of neat things, and again a lot of complaints about other things. I guess my opinion can't really count for anything since I haven't played it myself. But personally, running businesses don't have much of an appeal for me.

Maybe if I had been playing for a while, having gone through several generations and gotten bored with them, maybe then it would be more interesting to me. But since I haven't even really played through things long enough to even go through a 2nd generation, I still find regular gameplay enjoyable. It's just my own gameplay style I guess. My main game is based on my own life, my family, friends and people I know in real life. And so... I'm trying to do a mock up and play my sims as close to real life as possible. That's why I play so slow to begin with.

For me personally, I've spent most of my time toying around with mods and stuff. Either making my own, or downloading tons of others and then custom tailoring them for my own game. I spend more time doing that, and reading and posting than I do actually playing the game itself. I guess that's what sort of keeps my interest up... the modding aspect.

Anyhew, I'm sorry that you've been disappointed. And I'm sorry the first people who replied didn't exactly have a positive or sympathetic response you might have been looking for.

Maybe you just need a break from the game? I think everyone get's bored, frustrated, and disappointed by things now and then. And maybe you'll eventually miss it and come back. Who knows?

I wish I had something more to say. But I really don't have anything more to offer. I just felt bad is all and for some reason, I felt compelled to reply.

Ste

[ZiggyDoodle]

I think you are missing a point. Sims are very individualistic little characters and their degrees of immaturity vary. But like the two-year-old human child playing in the toilet, you do have to direct and teach them, and can't just let them run mindlessly amok without suffering the consequences (as in RL).

So if your Sims are out of control and doing stupid things, don't expect them to act "normally" and "logically" unless you actually participate in their lives and give them some direction. 

But do keep in mind that games are supposed to be fun.

[J. M. Pescado]

Sims have no individuality, except what you ascribe to them at random. Sims essentially choose their actions at random, affected only slightly by their personality stats. This is essentially the only thing that can individualize a sim at all, and a sim with the same stats is thus identical in behavior to any other sim with those stats, regardless of what prior experiences they have. Sims have no intelligence or individuality, and their actions are essentially random and undirected. The only way a sim can manifest "personality" is if you force the issue. Everything else is just a delusion.

[idtaminger]

Don´t read this post if you hate long posts and/or dislike personal opinions and styles of game-playing different from yours.

I don't have anything against long posts per se. I usually end up reading to the end of syberspunk's posts and they're pretty damn long most of the time. There's just something about putting things into a format like this -  omgwtfihatethisgameanditsucksandidnotlikeitandyadayadaandwhatever that puts pple off reading it, if you know what I mean.

[ElfPuddle]

Everything else is just a delusion.

And it's the delusion I like best. I love this game, and I too am a v    e    r    y    s    l    o   w   player. I didn't install NL until Feb., and I don't own OFB yet (but I will as soon as I need to). Thank you, Nadira, for sharing your thoughts. I read the post, and although I don't agree with you totally, I know what you mean. No, you aren't alone or alien. Yes, it's frustrating. I don't have a solution. I end up playing vindictive goddess and destroying all that doesn't go my way. ... and I cheat a lot too.

[Pegasys]

My Sims often feel disturbingly real but that's because I've imbued them with personality that goes beyond what the game actually provides. If I sat and thought objectively about it I would realize, as JMP points out, they are not programmed to have very much individuality, but as each story unfolds, I get wrapped up in the delusion. Yes, it's the delusion I like best.

[PlaidSquirrel]

I use clothing, hair, and make-up to give my sims "personality". I of course usually consider their personality points as well.
Then I just fill in the blanks with my imagination. Things happen and I dream up motivations for it that make sense. Or sometimes based on who I have decided they are I have to rig certain things to occur.

Anyway imagination is indeed the best part but just watching things happen is fun too.

[FroggySim]

I´ve read your entire post.
I have had some of your thoughts before, but I guess they won´t ever make me stop playing. I´m probably way to addicted.
Lately, I noticed that the way I play the game changes a lot. Sometimes I´ll spent a months with downloading and building and than I´ll go back to my legacy family for a week just to decide to start over with pleasantview the next week. It seems, I can´t stay focussed.

[SciBirg]

Nadira, I feel like that sometimes too.
Then I take a break for a month or three and then I start wanting to play again.
And I get an idea for something I have not tried before. Right now I am running a Victorian orphanage / boarding school with the help of Inge's objects and All About Style's fantastic outfits. The couple running it a very evil (of course) and have an unending slapfest with each other.

See, this is the clue about the game for me. Don't be so concerned with the new features. I don't use them until they fit MY purpose for the story in my head. I can't be bothered to actually write down the stories, too impatient for that, but having some basic idea about where things are going makes it even more fun when the sims decide to override my plans.

I have yet to have a zombie in the game and I only had a vampire for a short while earlier this week (the evil woman in the orphanage). Try to use your imagination for what you want to play instead of letting the sim decide for you, at least create a setting for the story in your head and you will see that it becomes fun again.

[shezoe]

Nadira, I feel your frustration. The game gets less and less logical with each expansion pack. I Love The Sims2. I am a true addict. I like the idea of OFB, but it is so disconnected from the previous expansions, that skills and University have almost no meaning. I have almost every hack on this site and a few from other sources. (Shhh!) It has made the game playable for me. I also cheat alot. I think the key is imagination. Make up stories and characters and pretend that degree really matters etc.

I will continue to play and will probably buy future expansion packs, but I agree with you. After a while it seems like I am playing the same sims over and over. You are not alone!

i'm with you on this one. It would't be any fun unless you write stories in your head to go with the sims.  The hacks make it possible to make your game go by the story you create, so i'm all for hacks! i play adventure/strategy games when i get tired of making stories for sims.  then play sims when i'm tired of shooting things and taking over maps-lol! moral: don't be scared to take some risks, Nadira.  That's what makes life and sims boring 

[shezoe]

So if your Sims are out of control and doing stupid things, don't expect them to act "normally" and "logically" unless you actually participate in their lives and give them some direction. 

But do keep in mind that games are supposed to be fun.

lolol! i bet this is what God said to Himself too: "oh GEEZ! I can see i'm just gonna have to come DOWN there! Aye yai yai" and in Bethlehem-a baby cried.... 

[Nadira]

Trying to keep myself short (and organised    ?)!

Thanks to everyone posting and especially to those who read the whole post!

I did not want to annoy anyone! The good thing with the Sim2 is everyone can play it his/her own style. As I tried to point out - I like and respect individuality very much.
As English is not my native language, I might express myself sometimes grossly without intending to.

Delusions can be wonderful (in a game) - I felt OFB had taken them away (try and visit one of your favorite DT-restaurants from NL after installing OFB and you´ll see what I mean).

I knew the post was way too long - but I think there also was no need to rub it in like the first three posters did. I am an old dog, not at all an experienced forum user, and I freely choose not to conform to expectations this time.

I am a VERY reasonable person, but this game has astonishingly and unexpectedly grown on me like an unwanted pet which gets your favorite. It even made me go to forums and actually POST!

I had started to see the options in this game (and Pescado and TwoJeffs more than once showed them in the design of some of their hacks). I just had the feeling Maxis/EA games with their greed  had cheated me out of it. And I wanted to MOURN at the place that for me is most intensely associated with the game.

There have been so many understanding replies here (independently whether or not they contained opinions different from mine!). I cannot name everyone specially and I thank you all!!!!

I think this Community really is something very special!

[Nadira]

Sims have no individuality, except what you ascribe to them at random. Sims essentially choose their actions at random, affected only slightly by their personality stats. This is essentially the only thing that can individualize a sim at all, and a sim with the same stats is thus identical in behavior to any other sim with those stats, regardless of what prior experiences they have. Sims have no intelligence or individuality, and their actions are essentially random and undirected. The only way a sim can manifest "personality" is if you force the issue. Everything else is just a delusion.

Precise and up to the point.
But randomization could have been done better. Which would - by itself - have enhanced the slight effects of personality stats.
Instead randomization got worse with every addon. Since OFB randomization is missing in many/most aspects of the game. The tuning is wrong in (nearly) all newly introduced features.
And why did they fiddle functioning BHVAS (or whatever else is the professional term)

And it's the delusion I like best.

I am with you!

[sintrinity]

I feel your pain.  I tried the free will on thing (and I still leave it on) but I find myself controlling most of their stupid programmed behavior that doesn't make sense anyway.  The end result of that was - I got really tired of all my perfect homes with perfect kids, perfect jobs and lots of money. 

For awhile I would play a challenge, then try taking all my mods out, then try toggling that thingy with boolprop that says it changes their motivations or some such (FBA maybe? Can't remember now).  On and on trying to find something interesting in a game I was bored with.

So I left for awhile - played WoW, Civ IV, Kingdom Hearts II, EQ ... I even bought that lousy D&D Online to try out ... but I find myself always coming back sooner or later.

I think all games will bore anyone sooner or later.  Just take a break and when you come back look for some new great mods like I do that'll spice it back up again.  Poor Maxis can't keep up with our attention spans 

On a side note - I had just started playing the original Sims when Sims2 came out so I was thinking of going back and trying it out some more but now it won't run     Is there some kind of conflict with the 2 or something that anyone knows of?  I even tried uninstalling but now it won't even reinstall.  Guess I will have to go buy it again and see if it is the CDs