Bad Kids? Bad People?

[J. M. Pescado]

that's an interesting theory, especially since I noticed something last week in my game, and I've been meaning to post about it:

I restored my earliest backup (from Oct '04) because I'm retaking early snapshots - I only got a decent graphic card in Nov'04. So I'm using InSim and other cheats to simply set up the shots I want, and that includes de-aging adults to children and/or toddlers. I noticed that a sim that I de-aged from adult to toddler (and then re-grew into a child) was suddenly a better-looking toddler than before.

Here's comparison pictures (the only difference is that the new one is also using a default replacement skintone, and different hair/eyebrows) - note the distance between her nose and her mouth:

Granted, they're not the best pictures, but I think there *is* a definite difference.

It's possible that the algorithm for expressing genetic code strings has been slightly altered in an attempt to produce "less ugly" babies, if one of your screenshots is old. The use or non-use of the faceblend cheat may also affect the final output based on a set of genetic strings. Finally, it's possible that the entire effect is an optical delusion brought about by the varying view angle and the replacement skin.

I also seem to remember that all the future faces for the child are created at the moment it's born. Also, male versions of the faces are generated for a female child, and vice versa, even though we can't see them, I think for future purposes, to be passed on to their their children of both genders.

I doubt all the faces are pre-generated the moment the sim is born. It's more likely that the face is algorithmically generated based on the genetic code strings, which would account for the noticeable lag everytime a sim ages.

[IgnorantBliss]

I doubt all the faces are pre-generated the moment the sim is born. It's more likely that the face is algorithmically generated based on the genetic code strings, which would account for the noticeable lag everytime a sim ages.

That's what I seem to remember reading in the guide (that the faces are generated at the time of birth), but I might remember wrong, and I don't have the guide handy at the moment.

[Lythdan]

I remember back when I had the first-born effect, there were two boys, identical, looks and personality. One grew up badly nearly every time, the other grew up well all the time. They are both elders now, and they are still identical.

[windy_moon]

Lilith is a bitch not because she grew up badly, but because her interests are highly polarized and she has fewer nice points, which causes her to favor more mean interactions and have poor conversations with people that don't share her highly polarized interests out of the box.

That's interesting.  I made Lilith a pet project when I first got the game...determined to "turn her around".   (Hey, her parents were no help and her prissy sister got on my nerves, no wonder Lillith didn't like her.)

Anyway, she's one of my favorite Sims.  What's interesting is, even tho I had no clue what I was doing when I got the game, one of the first things I did was have her go out and buy a whole bunch of magazines.  Only Sim I ever did that for...I must have noticed that her interests were polarized.  (Given that I usually pay no attention to interests, there must have been some reason.)

She's happy, healthy, successful (all-star), and has many friends despite growing up badlly at one point.  She'll occasionally get into a little squabble if she's autonomous. but nothing serious.

So, if one wanted to make a particularly disagreeable Sim, polarizing their interests would be one ingredient.  (Seems obvious, doh, I just hadn't thought of it in that direction before.)  I'm afraid, after rescuing Lillith, I'm brewing a disagreeable Sim right now.  She's a recreation of a TS1 child I had who just didn't get along with anyone and I want to get as close to my TS1 plot line as I can.   (Although I cannot bear to have anyone grow up badly...I just want her to be a bitch who grows up well, and content that she is a bitch!)

 

 

[J. M. Pescado]

IF you want your sims to be nearly incapable of getting along with ANYONE, you could wipe out their interests entirely so they don't want to talk about ANYTHING. That'll make a really unsociable sim right there. Also, grouchy, nasty sims tend to open up on random people with negative interactions, which can certainly sour the mood right there, but once you get past that initial phase, grouchies get along as well as anyone. Too bad there aren't enough grouchy-type-interactions, like, say, kicking people. Or arguing a lot.

[Sagana]

I remember back when I had the first-born effect, there were two boys, identical, looks and personality. One grew up badly nearly every time, the other grew up well all the time. They are both elders now, and they are still identical.

Creating an evil twin skippy? <giggle>

but once you get past that initial phase, grouchies get along as well as anyone

They do roll more wants for things that you actually fulfill, yes? So if they roll wants to prank and you fill those, they'd be more likely to roll more and thus a tad bit grouchier seeming?

Too bad there aren't enough grouchy-type-interactions, like, say, kicking people. Or arguing a lot.

Yep. Or vandalism... spray-painting walls, throwing rocks at passing cars, stealing candy from babies, kicking sand in people's faces... definately need more.

[IgnorantBliss]

OK, I have the guide in hand now and this is what it says:

Every sim actually has 12 faces: one for each age for both genders. They only, however,  show the six faces of their gender as they grow up, though the hidden six faces of the opposite gender are written into the Sim's genes. When a Sim is born, therefore, the six faces for their lifetime are simultaneously created along with six other faces she can pass on genetically.

[Lythdan]

Well. That makes sense.

[Sagana]

but isn't near as much fun.

[Lythdan]

but isn't near as much fun.

But since when were sensible things fun?

[IgnorantBliss]

It would be odd if growing up badly gave them a longer jaw or similar. While it's realistic that the environment can change the way you look, it's more about physical trauma than getting a D at school that would cause it in real life  (Incidentally, my husband is an identical twin but has a different jaw from his brother due to getting squished in the uterus.)

[Sagana]

But since when were sensible things fun?

This is the sims we're discussing - where toddlers can't be mistreated unless you count never being allowed out of the house and having nannies pee on them ;)

While it's realistic that the environment can change the way you look, it's more about physical trauma than getting a D at school that would cause it in real life

I kinda think of growing up badly as the closest the sims gets to neglect... not having your needs met, that kind of thing. Not quite starving, but maybe not well-fed, no attention. In that case, a thin, pinched-looking face would make sense. (and the game wouldn't know if it was attractive or not - my skinny, funny-faced kid is actually my favorite. No clones for testing tho. I'm using JMs random rolls - thanks JM! I hate clones :)

So too bad if it doesn't have any affect. More variables is almost always better. I still think it'd be worth a full-fledged test, but I'm too lazy to do it ;) It doesn't matter much though as role-play is a wonderful thing.

[J. M. Pescado]

OK, I have the guide in hand now and this is what it says:

Every sim actually has 12 faces: one for each age for both genders. They only, however,  show the six faces of their gender as they grow up, though the hidden six faces of the opposite gender are written into the Sim's genes. When a Sim is born, therefore, the six faces for their lifetime are simultaneously created along with six other faces she can pass on genetically.

That, unfortunately, says basically nothing. We already knew that facial genetics are written into the sim for all genders. The question is, are the faces actually generated and cached in advance, or are they procedurally generated based on aforementioned DNA strings. The bulk of the evidence seems to point towards the latter, which makes the "guide" slightly misleading? And is this the Prima Guide? That shit's some expensive terlet paper.

[IgnorantBliss]

My interpretation is that the faces are all created at the time of birth, or otherwise you wouldn't say "all sims have 12 faces". Only elders would have 12 faces if they are only created along the way. And I interpret the last quoted sentence, the faces being "simultaneously created", to mean that, that they are generated at that moment. But, whatever, I'm not going to fight this point any further since I have already provided the evidence I have.

I wish Maxoid Tom were still around to answer questions like these.



Edited to add: No, actually I'm back with more evidence: When you open up a character package of a sim in SimPE, you can see in the Geometric Data Container that all the facial shapes have been generated for the sims regardless of their age. A toddler has all the faces up until an elder. However, I only see faces for one gender. Unfortunately, I just found out one of my favorite toddlers is going to grow up into a butt-ugly adult  .

So, at least all the toddlers have their future faces created for them. Can't say anything about babies since I don't have any in my game at the moment.

[Sagana]

When a Sim is born, therefore, the six faces for their lifetime are simultaneously created along with six other faces she can pass on genetically.

Actually it doesn't make any sense at all that the faces are created beforehand. If the "6 others" that she "can pass on" were created at her birth, she would only be able to have a child with one face... well 2, one for each gender and I guess her mate would have 2 so if you had more than 2 boys (for example) they'd *have* to be clones... but they don't - the genetics can combine in a variety of ways. My current couple has 4 boys and they're all different - from toddler up (all the babies look the same to me). So - what I'm poorly saying is that all 12 faces wouldn't reasonably be created at birth. Maybe all her personal "looks" would be generated at birth but surely those of her children wouldn't be?

[IgnorantBliss]

I guess, in that case, it means that the facial features she will pass on to the future generations have been generated for both female and male children, but the features will still mix with the other parents' ones. But, yes, the personal faces are created before hand exactly as they will be.

[Sagana]

Interesting. That doesn't strike me as the way, if I were able to code such things, that I would choose to do it. Generating information before it's needed both increases the load on the machine (unnecessarily in the midst of the tons of other things that have to be done at birth and/or toddlerhood) and locks you in. So that later when you want, for example, to add a plastic surgery machine the machine has to (unnecessarily) regenerate all information from that point forward, unless you want your sim to revert to a big-nosed freak on their next birthday.

Do the changes from the plastic surgery machine pass on genetically?

It doesn't btw totally eliminate the possibility of later modifications (as shown by the machine) for bad growing up or whatever else, but does mean it'd be such a PITA to do it's rather unlikely. Still seems rather redundant to me, but then again this IS the sims we're talking about. It's not really known for what my geek friend calls sexy code (i.e., well-put-together, streamlined, does the job with the least trouble) anyway, is it?

[IgnorantBliss]

No, changes made with the plastic surgery career reward do not pass on genetically, as far as I know

[Ellatrue]

I would assume that they are following something like the "scientific" definition of beauty, which would lead to the sims' appearance approaching a more standardized face. I also think the prima guide is useless.

I imagine the sims facial data is generated at birth/creation, and that the game codes for the kinds of changes that take place at each age transition. I think the 6 faces thing could mean that the faces are pre-determined, in that the genetic information for the sim is already set- not that they are already generated.

[IgnorantBliss]

I would assume that they are following something like the "scientific" definition of beauty, which would lead to the sims' appearance approaching a more standardized face. I also think the prima guide is useless.

I imagine the sims facial data is generated at birth/creation, and that the game codes for the kinds of changes that take place at each age transition. I think the 6 faces thing could mean that the faces are pre-determined, in that the genetic information for the sim is already set- not that they are already generated.

Did you miss my earlier post where I mentioned how the mesh for each 6 faces can be found in a sim's character file, regardless of their age? That pretty much means without a doubt that they are already generated.

[Renatus]

Well, I think I might as well test this, as I sprained my goddamned ankle this evening so I can't go anywhere or do much of anything. *mutter*

Anyhow, I'll go one of two ways - make a family of 7 identical toddlers and a placeholder adult, assuring the identicalness of the toddlers by using a sim out of the Sim Bin for each one, or make one adult and use the Tombstone of L&D to self-pollinate, then the triplets and quads hack to ensure quads, and repeat. The first way is less effort, but the second way would allow me to get more, ahem, test subjects. Anyhow, the cheats built into the game will ensure that the social worker won't make any visits, and Merola's multipainting will make aging and aspiration manipulation dead easy.

I'll take a bundle of screenshots and stick them up somewhere when I'm done.

[Sagana]

Oh, I'm sorry about your ankle. I hope it heals quickly. I'm looking forward to seeing the tests though Should be interesting.

[Renatus]

I hope it heals quickly, too, because being laid-up on the couch and having to make a big production every time I want to go to the toilet really shits me. 

Anyhow, the results are here: TS2 Aging Experiment. It isn't pretty, but it took me three hours so it's what y'all get. Be aware that I'm going to take it down if my host says I'm using too much bandwith, so don't expect it to be there forever.

If you don't want to click, the results were - under my test conditions of an adult sim and 7 toddler clones, it didn't matter how they grew up in any stage, they all looked the same through all ages, even as elder.

[IgnorantBliss]

Thank you for the thorough and scientific approach! And of course I'm happy about the results since they agree with what I originally thought  . All I can say is, poor single mom with the seven toddlers!

[Renatus]

You're welcome. I did my best to use a proper scientific method that wouldn't leave big gaps in the research (and think I did pretty well, considering I haven't really had to use the scientific method in quite a few years). I'm disappointed that they don't end up looking different, but not surprised.

I exited without saving when I was done so I can use them for a challenge - then it will DEFINITELY be 'poor single mom'!