Testing the waters: What do you want in a 'hood?

[Crazetex]

Back when I played The Sims 2, I always started off a new session by making a new town from scratch, building outwards from a single residential lot as I needed groceries, people to marry, places to date, etc. I really enjoyed the neighborhood creation aspect, and the open world of The Sims 3 makes that possibility even more attractive. Unfortunately, until now I've never felt that TS3 was up to snuff with its hood customization; between Late Night, Awesomemod and twallan/NRaas Industries I think it's finally possible for me to feel comfortable making a 'hood from the ground up that runs the way I want it to run.

I've tried a few other custom worlds, like Neverglade and Oakwood City, but they're unpopulated and feel very "we made a world! It's here! Laud us for our boring layouts and copious trees!" Some of the more adventurous worlds like Coconut Island are interesting but a little too out-there for me. I dunno, I guess I'm just really picky.

Basically what I'm saying is that I want to make a world that's big and bustling and takes full advantage of what The Sims 3 currently has to offer. I've failed to make worlds in the past; it's a big commitment and the tools were never very good. I'd like your input on what would make a world sexy and appealing to you while still being fairly suburban/downtown-ish.

Here're my current thoughts:
-I'd either use a cleaned-out Riverview or Sunset Valley as a base, unless somebody could point me to a large, fairly simple completely empty world with a lot of roads for development on. I want this to be the typical "green and grassy" mix of suburbia and city; Bridgeport meets Sunset Valley
-I'd be using items from all three expansion packs and High-End Loft Life. Fast Lane can go burn in a ditch for the purposes of forcing people to own it. Not having the Bayside pack or the fauxhawk from the store would make me a very sad person, but such is life
-There would be no CC for fairly obvious reasons, and the only mods used when creating the 'hood (for the purposes of manipulation and being made to run with) are Awesomemod, The StoryProgression and The MasterController. I really need input on this; I at least need MC (I believe) to apply skill points/adjust sexuality/etc. - if I do this, I'd separately upload an SP setup file and a list of my AM settings that coincide with my views for the 'hood
-It would be populated! Every job would have at least four workers, with more general jobs (Business, Education) having additional employees. There would be a proper celebrity Mayor, a seedy underbelly of thugs, etc. I'd also make one or two sims in each profession after some testing to see if the computer AI actually plays them believably enough
-While nothing ridiculously complex, there would be families spread out around town, affairs going on, people falling in love, co-worker rivals, etc.; essentially, the town would have stories to tell should you wish to get involved
-Stuff like ceilings and cribs would be added for pretties/Awesomemod

A few notes/warnings:
-There would most definitely be homosexuality. Not rampant pink-thong boykissers everywhere or anything, but a realistic chunk of the population would be gay. I suppose I shouldn't need to work about this in this day and age, but...
-Easter eggs would be everywhere, references to pop culture and not-pop culture would abound, Anderson Cooper<3 would likely make some sort of appearance
-I am likely going to need help with lots - I want a lot of originality and some variety (multiple laundromats, for example) and I'm willing/want to build some myself. I'm also probably going to ask people like jesslla if I can use their nifty lots (even though none of you know who I am). I will definitely need to petition other people/places for mansions to be included (Mod the Sims?)
-This project could die off at any time, but with lots of support I would hopefully be motivated to follow through completely. If this picks up steam, I'm likely going to ask people to do two things: advertise on other sites (although if the site seems decent I'll probably join myself) and test the 'hood to check for odd architectural errors, misspellings, and other unfortunate events

Random questions:
-Would you expect bios for each and every character? If I do them, they'd be for everybody, but if nobody's going to check them then there's no way I'm doing them. I don't mind if would would like them, though (and they would most certainly be done for lots/households)
-How easy/possible is it to have designated playable sims be pianists/mixologists/etc.? Are they only NPCs? Obviously I still have research to do before starting this project; I haven't had Late Night for very long
-How many vampires should there be? Are you interested in the town starting with a mummy or simbot or two? How about green-skinned people?
-Exactly how anti-pudding are you/is the community in general? I've been out of it for a while and although I personally don't care about pudding I'd like the town to be used!

I guess the most important question is this: would you actually download and play in a world that isn't necessarily inventive, but instead thought-out and hopefully charming/intriguing? The goal is to set the stage for your sitcom or drama, whether you act it out, record it or just watch your sims die horribly. There would be stuff to find and funny/disturbing things going on, but the issue with the open world and the world growing all at once is that eventually people are going to die off and the stories are going to end without you ever knowing.

[Sarafina]

I think this is better suited for mod the sims.  It honestly sounds like you want a lot of help with this and that's not really the style here.  Not to mention everyone is going to have a different opinion, so all those questions at the end won't do you much good.

But if you want to do it, then go for it.  I'm just not sure that we are the type of place for this big community project.

[Crazetex]

It's not meant to be a community project, I was just saying that I'd probably be sniping some custom lots from other people that I like. 90+% of the work is meant to be done by me!

And differing opinions is good. I like the honesty and intelligence here.

[Kyna]

Personally, I'd probably nuke all the characters you put in since I like to populate my hoods myself, so I can't give you any suggestions on that aspect.  I realise this is the core of your idea, but like you, I'm picky.  I'd rather play characters and families I created instead of someone else's.

I have an older, slower computer, and hoods with large populations are incredibly slow.  Keeping the number of unhoused sims down (i.e. how many bars and how many non-playable apartment doors would the neighbourhood have?) would be important from my point of view.

I'm not a fan of the EA terrains.  I like flat neighbourhoods, or at least neighbourhoods with flat lots.  To show you what I mean, currently I'm playing with myskaal's Bayborough neighbourhood.  It's pre-Ambitions, but there are plenty of routable spaces near roads where lots can be added for Ambitions & Late Night.

I do like hoods with plenty of cribified housing in a range of prices (a decent amount of starter homes, most of the houses mid-range, and a couple of mansions).  I also like having empty lots in a range of sizes that I can build on or that I can use to plop down some of the lots I built for my own use.  Additionally, I like to have routable space near roads where lots can be added as required by future EPs.

The mod issue wouldn't bother me, as I use AM and Twallan's MC.  I don't see why using them to construct the hood would affect the completed hood, since AM can be uninstalled using the uninstall command, and Twallan's mods can be deactivated simply by removing the downloads.

Adding in spawners for some of the new gems, plants, and fish would be nice.  I have a community garden I built that has all the WA plants added.  I use this lot in all of my neighbourhoods.  I haven't bothered to upload it anywhere as it's nothing flash, and most players could easily build a better version of it.

[J. M. Pescado]

AwesomeMod has no effect on a hood in construction, because data pertaining to AwesomeMod doesn't actually appear until you start using either AwesomeStory or Supreme Commander. Otherwise your game is basically stock.

[Crazetex]

Thanks for the mod information.

Kyna: I fully intend on adding spawners/clever little fishing holes/foreign gardens/etc.! As for the population thing, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not sure this 'hood would be for you, then, although you could always obliterate part of the downtown.

Baybourough looks like an ideal TS2 'hood layout, which is probably a good thing as well for TS3. Places like Twinbrook annoy me because all of the space is taken up - I had to tear apart a huge cliff to put down the new studio.

[Zazazu]

Kyna: I fully intend on adding spawners/clever little fishing holes/foreign gardens/etc.! As for the population thing, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not sure this 'hood would be for you, then, although you could always obliterate part of the downtown.

Depending on what the specific issue is (I've chosen to forgo LN until I get my next computer), users concerned about LN NPC population could simply gut the lots of all spawning objects and/or change them to a generic type. I use much the same tactic in many of my 'hoods, where I want the look of a highly populated town/city, but not the actual population to drag my speed down...I create residential lots that are really just facades.

One tip to keep in mind is to create little regions within your 'hood. My own current 'hood is an extreme of this...I have sections clearly divided by walls for the four castes, with homes with gardens or faux farmland restricted to the appropriate caste's section, tiny townhomes and big faux skyscrapers in the casteless hub/downtown, and distinctive architecture styles in the other castes. Many cul-de-sacs and developments where I'm from are started and built exclusively by one construction company, so all the houses will be similar, but the neighboring development will have a different look, and homes in the older, often poorer areas will be small and mismatched. However, if your whole 'hood consists of lots ganked from this creator and that creator, it's going to look like a disjointed mess.

[Crazetex]

That is a very good point, Zazazu. While not meant to be thematic in a pirate/ninja/space alien way, this is meant to be a cohesive 'hood. I'll keep that in mind.

[Noenmity]

The thought of Anderson Cooper in my neighborhood iinstantly killed all motivation and desire for your world. But as they say, to each his own.

[Crazetex]

That was mostly a joke. Real-world people have no place in The Sims 3. Adds to the uncanny valley in a way, even more than oily skins and greasy hairs.

[myskaal]

Here's what I have left of the CAW files for Bayborough, if you wanted to play with it as a template.


http://www.mediafire.com/file/md97zm489wpiy7w/CAW.7z


As far as an opinion on what sims should go in a hood, I really don't have any input. I also always nuke pre-set populations and raise my own.



ETA: **Fixed download/link. I forgot to include the .world and .settings files.

[spockblock]

The thought of Anderson Cooper in my neighborhood iinstantly killed all motivation and desire for your world. But as they say, to each his own.

Anderson Cooper: the Anti Goopy GilsCarbo.

[Crazetex]

Now I am nostalgic for The Sims 2, even though I could never go back after playing TS3. Thanks.

myskaal: Thanks, I'll take a peek. I really should play with CAW more.

[HomeschooledByTards]

Flat terrain and straight roads. Lots of empty starter houses and rabbitholes. LOTS of room to expand and add new lots. I don't care about sims, I'm going to just put in MATY sims and let the AM story manager create/move in new people anyway.

[Daimon]

Good jogging routes with pretty views.
Bright, friendly lighting -- all three WA destinations rock in that regard, and Bridgeport sure as heck doesn't.
Downtown area with all required rabbitholes and a number of bars and clubs.
Less high end manors and more small family houses, with cribs.
Community lots that have been actually tested in game, as opposed to pretty overcluttered lots with routing fails.

[saeda]

I like when neighborhoods come with sims made by the person who made the world. It's nice when the family I'm playing has a lot of choice of who they want to interact with, and I don't always have enough sims to fill all the houses.

I would want some nice clubs that have architectural appeal but don't have ridiculous pathing that cause sims to spend excessive amounts of time getting anywhere.

I also don't want a lot of expensive houses since it makes it too hard to place your own sims in them when editing the town to populate it.

[Jeebus]

I'd say that you should try to limit the size of your neighborhood.  I realize you said you wanted to make a big one, but if you make it too large, it will lag horribly, and even if it doesn't, the game won't run at full fidelity (AI lag and all that).  I don't have to worry too much because I have an i7 processor, but many people here do not have terribly powerful computers.  Even my ATI 4670 has is a little strained by rendering neighborhoods these days.  Also, make sure you don't landscape your larger lots excessively- this can really add to lot lag.

I will second the request for lots of cheap starters- the lack of these in the default neighborhoods has always bothered me.  Make sure that the houses are cheap enough so that you can avoid putting in kewian-based furnishings.  Because of course, you should accept no kewian-based substitutes.  It's also a good idea (as Zazazu said) to make little unique subdivisions with their own character.

[Crazetex]

The lack of many cheap starter homes in the default 'hoods bothers me, too. Considering this would require LN, it would make sense to have some duplexes or whatever that are cheap but still look fairly nice, although not too many since editing your own lawn is pleasant.

[Skadi]

I like plenty of room for lots and plenty of living space really close to the main city. I use comm lots for skilling since they have so many bonuses, and nothing sucks more than having to go from the arse end of a hood across town to gain a quick level in athletic/at the library.
I also find that 20 x 20 or 25 x 25 lots are a good size for a house and a garden, while still keeping a more inner-city suburb feel to it.

[Zazazu]

I'd say that you should try to limit the size of your neighborhood.  I realize you said you wanted to make a big one, but if you make it too large, it will lag horribly, and even if it doesn't, the game won't run at full fidelity (AI lag and all that). 

Seriously, stick to the tiny or small preset sizes. Unless you are trying to do some sort of rural paradise with huge strung-out lots, you will have more space than you know what to do with on anything above small.

This is on a tiny map, using only about 2/3 of the available terrain. It has almost 100 lots, the vast majority being 20x20 or above.


Definitely do a lot of cheap starter homes, at least half those available should be able to be bought by a family of five with $20k or less as families spawned by the game will need that, and any households you spin off will generally need cheap housing for the first few generations. If you are building with Awesomemod in, remember to do the command "wandhere" on each lot when you are finished building, as this will depreciate it and increase affordability.

I personally go no wider or deeper than 15 for inner city homes, but you know I like the tiny.

[Kyna]

I use comm lots for skilling since they have so many bonuses, and nothing sucks more than having to go from the arse end of a hood across town to gain a quick level in athletic/at the library.

Agreed.  While we're on the subject of accessibility to skilling locations, please put roads near fishing spots.  It irritates me when a sim has to run across a lot of terrain to reach fishing spots, especially if it's a low- to mid-level fish they're after.  I know I can add the Riverview fishing lot to neighbourhoods where this is an issue, but that feels kind of cheaty to me.

[Crazetex]

Thank you all for being so informative. I'll definitely keep all of this in mind.

I never realized that small 'hoods could be so... large. I guess I've been under the influence of massive-yet-tiny maps like Twinbrook for too long.

[Sita]

What a lovely idea. I prefer to fill a Hood with my own Sims, but I can see the reasoning for the extra NPCs in workplaces. It does seem a little odd when there is only 1 other person working as a <insert career here>.
I like BIG Hoods. Lots of space; I am playing Bay City right now. I like enough space to be able to add extra lots, if only so I can place some of the poorer families in shacks.
I wonder if a shanty-town idea might work? I saw some TINY Lots yesterday but I can't remember where.
Would agree with the play-able and play-tested requirement for Lots. While I like to build myself, sometimes I just want to immerse myself and PLAY - and that kind of lot breaks the immersion completely.
I think the celebrity (Anderson Cooper? whodat?) idea may not be not such a good one. If I want RL people in the Hood, I tend to search for a good likeness or make one and add them myself. (Guess who had about 8 versions of David Duchovny for S2 and STILL couldn't find one that looked like him...)

[JEthel]

I guess the most important question is this: would you actually download and play in a world that isn't necessarily inventive, but instead thought-out and hopefully charming/intriguing?

Yep, definitively. I often download worlds, but I only keep the ones I consider 'high quality'. I find there are 3 major parameters regarding world design. They are:

1. Technical quality, and I guess this is mostly about a practical and sound routing design for the world grounds, and good accessibility on the lots themselves.

2. Aesthetic/visual quality: fine ground painting, good trees and objects placement, custom road and sidewalk textures... A good level of details and finish, like addresses for lots for instance.

3. A good theme, or at least consistency in the theme. It doesn't have to be over original indeed (sci-fi, fantasy...), but rather coherent. No obelisk, arc de triomphe or huge space shuttle in small villages usually, even if those objects are available in the meta data list, and SO tempting.

Of those 3 points, the technical aspect is the most decisive for me. A world can be as original, extraordinary, great looking as one wants, if my sims stay stuck all over the place because routing sucks or because they are in a bottleneck, I hate it. Like many here, I'm use Awesomemod and its story progression. This means my inactive sims DO something, go to places. And bad/wonky routing + 'active' inactive sims = lags, freezes and a huge amount of irritation for me. Sooner or later, I will discard the world, as lovely as it is.

Besides this, most of what I like as already been posted above. More small to medium lots, loads of starter and average homes, sub-hoods with their own identity and their own set of proximity community lots if the world is large enough to house them, tested lots and tested world.

For the population, do it if you want to. But if you chose to include sims, the bios and household descriptions are kind of a must for me.

How easy/possible is it to have designated playable sims be pianists/mixologists/etc.? Are they only NPCs? Obviously I still have research to do before starting this project; I haven't had Late Night for very long

As far as I know, pianists, mixologists and the likes are homeless sims, so unselectable and unplayable. I have absolutely no clue if it's possible to mod those roles to be selected among the playable pool. Anyhow, it doesn't even mean that the role would stick to the playable sims. Register clerks and the stylist are roles tended by playable but inactive sims for instance. As soon as you select a household with one of those sims as your active lot, this sim will 'lose his job' and another unemployed inactive in the right life stage will be selected to manage the register (or the stylist station). You can find a great tutorial here about pre-populating: http://www.simswiki.info/wiki.php?title=Tutorials:Populating_CAW_Worlds

Simbots, mummies, ghosts, red-green-blue sims, celebrities and vampires are all welcome. I can always nuke what I don't like, so feel free to create what you like.


So, good luck with this project, and loads of patience and perseverance with CAW!

[Crazetex]

Continued thanks are in order. All of this information is terrific and useful! Thanks for the link to the "Populating CAW Worlds" wiki especially, JEthel.

A guess a mini-update could be made:

-Looks like I'll do bios for everybody! It's a great place to hide easter eggs/clues, at least
-There will definitely not be Anderson Cooper
-I've thrown out the first two worlds I made in CAW. I'm worried about distant terrain - it's pretty, but the suggestions here had caused me to experiment with small worlds. This doesn't leave a huge amount of space for rolling hills miles around while still having decent non-camera routing! What are people's thoughts on having limited distant terrain with a consolidated area like the 'hood posted by Zazazu above? (Or am I missing something?)
-Between my own views, the views posted here and how I got pissy at Bridgeport last night trying to move some guys to a new cheap lot, the world will most definitely have a focus on cheap to average cost homes for residential areas
-Should every community lot with an interior have a bathroom? Should there be outhouses on some distant lots?

Some screenshots of a tiny laundromat - the Cleanette Laundry Facility ("the Whabam! power of Cleanesque in a small-town format") - I made that will be in this world, most likely with some adjustment, less BLUE and actual exterior decoration:




I made it quickly for myself because I could barely fit the Twinbrook one in Bridgeport and its non-existent free space ("we're going to let you place lots down like in The Sims 2! Too bad there's no room in the worlds, especially not the new ones") and because I really needed a public chessboard; I couldn't find one in all of Bridgeport.

Any complaints about my need to practice building can be responded to with "yes I know, that's why I'm practicing before actually crafting this world."

EDIT: I've been doing a lot of reading, and it looks like in order to create the kind of lived-in, pre-made soap opera world I'm planning on I should share this as a save file as opposed to a world file. While the mods that allow Edit-in-World to manipulate Sims are fairly powerful, I'm interested in something even deeper - possibly even letting the game play out for a while. Is this an absolutely horrible idea? Are there any technical issues I should worry about/that mean I should avoid sharing as a save completely? Does this cause you to scoff at me?