Story Mode

[Mandapotpie]

I really love the way the awesome-mod allows me to play more then one household, but frankly speaking: its storymode "improvements" are not improvements, they are just removing the rather unsophisticated solutions to certain problems EA has built into the game.

Pescado has said before that he hasn't had time to really improve story mode yet, just remove all the stupid stuff from it. Have patience and we will see an New and Improved Story Mode from him in the future

[tallinn]

Thanks for the answers. I did not know of the efforts already taken place to achieve compability between the two mods, and got the wrong impression from the MTS site that Indie is happily taken code from Pescado. It would be very nice to see the two mods getting compatible. I apologize for causing the impression that I want to criticize Pescado. That was not my intent. The initial statement starting the thread made me think that Pescado did not like the Indiemod and would not bother about people who want to play with both. As that is obviously not the case I will just wait until things have been sorted out.

The other point I made is about Pescados ideas being "ambitious". I am still thinking that Pescados project has a high risk to fail. If I understand his ideas correctly, Pescados story mode implementation will be some sort of the good old life game, where the overall structure developing is determined by the micro behaviour of the single elements. From that game we know that obtaining a somewhat stable situation over generations is a good piece of luck. You can have all sorts of developments from a fast-dying-out population over a locally or overall cyclic population to an exploding one. For the purpose of the game only the stable populations would make sense IMHO. Of course one can fix odd developments by moving families in and out of the neighborhood whenever there is a need for that. But that is what the EA code does, and people don't seem to like it. There is a lot of ranting about "where are my families?" in the sim forum I normally read. And as the families the players want to stay in the neighbourhood not only include those actually played but as well those that are friends of the families actually played, the number of families available for moving out may be very limited.

The concept to simulate the population toward a stable condition by applying statistical heuristics  like the Indiemod does has the advantage that stability is built in right from the start. It is nothing you have to hope for, you can expect it.

The other problem I see is that micromanaging all sims in the neighborhood will overwhelm ordinary PCs. Although it would be nice to be able to watch initially dating sims, first kisses and all that stuff, I am more interested in having interesting sims to meet by those that I play. The Indiemod does deliver them.

Pescado, I did not understand your comment that the sims are not motivated to get jobs :-) If I start a new family one of their first wishes is always to get one. If I would have to create a concept how to micromanage sims by the PC I would follow the path created by the wishes that appear. Most often they make sense.

[Enelen]

Pescado, I did not understand your comment that the sims are not motivated to get jobs :-) If I start a new family one of their first wishes is always to get one. If I would have to create a concept how to micromanage sims by the PC I would follow the path created by the wishes that appear. Most often they make sense.

That might be a good idea in my opinion. I just noticed it, too, that their wishes seem to make sense in TS3. For example, the sim I was just playing got an order to befriend another sim, and poof, he has a wish to befriend her. Then he gets a promotion, and he instantly gets a wish to befriend the boss. He needs a skill for promotion, there's a wish to improve it (or buy an object that lets him improve it). I was like  This is very different from TS2 where they always got a wish to improve a skill you just improved instead of something they needed. Too bad it only works for the selected household...

[ForkInToaster]

I was thinking the other day about the storymode difficulties and trying to think of "bottom up" instead of top-down solutions. I hade a small spark of an idea.

By not having an open neighborhood, TS2 gave townies plenty of time to build social lives with each other.  When you loaded up a public lot, they were forced out of the woodwork into wherever you were. If you didn't socialize with them, they would socialize with each other.  Eventually, they would form friendships or make enemies based on their social interractions.  Sometimes this would create a little drama -- I remember in my games Benjamin Long and Marissa would always have a slap fest  and frequently saw Goopy getting the stuffing kicked out of him by several different female sims. Whenever I'd marry a townie into my family, they'd always come with several friends of various different levels. It wasn't much of a story, but the sims were interracting with each other in such a way that I think some people would like the townies in TS3 to interract.

Unfortunately in TS3 there is too much space for the townies and they are pretty much forced to hide in their houses when you're not out in public.  Maybe there could be some sort of beacon-like item you could drop in certain public places. When the beacon was on,  non-active-household sims and townies would be encouraged to  congregate in an area with a beacon whether or not there were active playing sims there.  (Loner sims would have a stronger resistance to the beacon than others, of course)  Once they were all together, they'd be left to socialize on their own.  

With a mod similar to ACR, but toned down a bit so the sims don't all break down into constant public orgies -- they'd just be able to romantically interract with a close friend (or multiple friends, or nobody at all, depending on their traits).  I think this might be a way to handle the social aspect of story mode.

I know when the town is more crowded, that they will end up congregating in places on their own, but they still don't do it enough to really develop friendships and when you destroyallhumans, they barely do it at all.  I think a beacon that sort of forced the townies to congregate in one location if they weren't busy working, sleeping or doing whatever it is they need to do, they'd get more socially active and have more opportunities to make their own stories.


EDIT: And I think this would work even better if there was some way they could drag each other away from chess set, laptops or reading.  Why is it once someone sits at a chess-table you can not interract with them in any way except to play with them? Townies should be able to break each other from the chess trance.

[Motoki]

Unfortunately in TS3 there is too much space for the townies and they are pretty much forced to hide in their houses when you're not out in public.  Maybe there could be some sort of beacon-like item you could drop in certain public places. When the beacon was on,  non-active-household sims and townies would be encouraged to  congregate in an area with a beacon whether or not there were active playing sims there.  (Loner sims would have a stronger resistance to the beacon than others, of course)  Once they were all together, they'd be left to socialize on their own.  

Err, the game already did this but Pescado felt it was a stalkery 'feature' and squelched it, though you can turn that off in the awesomeconfig. However even if you do they really do a piss poor job of interacting with each other when you are not interacting with them, if you ask me.

And I too also kind of miss the various feuds and slap fest dramas from TS2. 

[phyllis_p]

I've had Sims slap and fight autonomously.  It only happened once, though, in the park.

[Zazazu]

One of my playables starts fights autonomously nearly once a day. He hangs out at the gym. He's Evil. He likes to pummel people when he's done pumping iron, presumably to test the new muscle tone.

The other point I made is about Pescados ideas being "ambitious". I am still thinking that Pescados project has a high risk to fail.

You haven't been around the community much have you? Look at the Armory. He has a lot of experience in hacking/modding. Look at the shear scope of Awesomemod so far. You really think he can't beat story progression into submission with a hammer? If so, I'll take that bet.

[Motoki]

You haven't been around the community much have you? Look at the Armory. He has a lot of experience in hacking/modding. Look at the shear scope of Awesomemod so far. You really think he can't beat story progression into submission with a hammer? If so, I'll take that bet.

Yeah, I have 100% confidence he'll come up with something and quite workable at that, though I suspect he may have to compromise or scale back from the original plan in some areas. We'll see. But I've no doubt he'll produce.

[quetzilla]

My townies seem to socialize fun when they show up on lots I visit.  Eating at picnic baskets together, swimming, etc.

[Wolfeyes]

You haven't been around the community much have you? Look at the Armory. He has a lot of experience in hacking/modding. Look at the shear scope of Awesomemod so far. You really think he can't beat story progression into submission with a hammer? If so, I'll take that bet.

Yeah, I have 100% confidence he'll come up with something and quite workable at that, though I suspect he may have to compromise or scale back from the original plan in some areas. We'll see. But I've no doubt he'll produce.

Me too... there's no doubt that Pes will come up w/more awesome additions to AM... and he appears to be an excellent "hammersmith" so will be staying tuned for upcoming new elements... and am also very excited about the new Awesome IndieStone Mod collaboration that will bring a whole new level of gameplay to EAxis' half-a$$ed attempt at global story progression...     

[ForkInToaster]

I know aboutt the stalker thing that is configurable -- I mean the townies are strongly compelled to show up when you are NOT there.  Sort of force them all into a corral with very little to amuse themselves with so that they have to turn to each other for fun. I think it would give back the fishbowl effect that the townies had in sims2 that kind of forced them to interract with each other a whole lot more than they do now.

[StormchaserOne]

You haven't been around the community much have you? Look at the Armory. He has a lot of experience in hacking/modding. Look at the shear scope of Awesomemod so far. You really think he can't beat story progression into submission with a hammer? If so, I'll take that bet.

Yeah, I have 100% confidence he'll come up with something and quite workable at that, though I suspect he may have to compromise or scale back from the original plan in some areas. We'll see. But I've no doubt he'll produce.

Zazazu and Motoki, Pescado will produce something better and bigger than the competition.  I have been hiding in the dark since Pescado came on the scene.  He is one of the best modders and hackers in the SIM Community.  But, when it comes to Awesome Mod.  He has to put away things he dislikes and will not do since there Can Only Be One Core Mod.  With this Indie Story Mod, this will be the first time since the beginnings of SIM 1 and 2 Modders and hackers will work together.

Core Hackers for SIMs 3 all of them all need to work together.  Awesome mod can be made better with everyone working together.  The SIMs Community will be better without the Drama.  No Drama just mod and hack and help each other out and give credit to where credit is due.

[moondance]

However even if you do they really do a piss poor job of interacting with each other when you are not interacting with them, if you ask me.

And I too also kind of miss the various feuds and slap fest dramas from TS2. 

They are awful at socializing. Most times if I take two or more members of the same family to the park they wind up socializing with one another and ignore all the new people at the park. Occasionally a single sim will spend hours sitting on a picnic blanket alone.  

I also miss the feuds, and I still really hate the fact that sim relationships are automatically mutual. The "I love you, you love me" situation isn't nearly as much fun as "You love me, I can't stand the sight of you" that happened frequently in my TS2 neighborhoods.

[Motoki]

I know aboutt the stalker thing that is configurable -- I mean the townies are strongly compelled to show up when you are NOT there.  Sort of force them all into a corral with very little to amuse themselves with so that they have to turn to each other for fun. I think it would give back the fishbowl effect that the townies had in sims2 that kind of forced them to interract with each other a whole lot more than they do now.

Well the stuff the TS2 townies did was all done of course while they were being observed. None of it was really done behind the scenes unless you count relationship deterioration.

To me it doesn't matter if the cat is dead or alive, so to speak, until it is actually being observed. If we're not seeing the townies then they really don't need a high level of simulation run. I think having friendships and hatreds between sims grow over time, perhaps based on factors like who lives near other or works together or what not is sufficient and then save the big antics of full interactions based on those relationships for when they are being observed.

If you've got 50+ sims all running in the background poking, slapping, telling jokes etc and then the other one reacting to that all in real time while the game still has to render and compute the main family and its guests and any interactions they are doing I could see that causing a system drain real quick.

They are awful at socializing. Most times if I take two or more members of the same family to the park they wind up socializing with one another and ignore all the new people at the park. Occasionally a single sim will spend hours sitting on a picnic blanket alone.  

I also miss the feuds, and I still really hate the fact that sim relationships are automatically mutual. The "I love you, you love me" situation isn't nearly as much fun as "You love me, I can't stand the sight of you" that happened frequently in my TS2 neighborhoods.

Yeah and see this is the thing that needs to be worked on. Not them doing this sort of stuff in the background where I can't see it. But when I am watching them then yeah, they need to do something, not just stand around. As kewpie pointed out, in this respect, townies autonomously interacting with each other on a lot the player is currently playing, even TS2 was better.

Zazazu and Motoki, Pescado will produce something better and bigger than the competition.  I have been hiding in the dark since Pescado came on the scene.  He is one of the best modders and hackers in the SIM Community.  But, when it comes to Awesome Mod.  He has to put away things he dislikes and will not do since there Can Only Be One Core Mod.  With this Indie Story Mod, this will be the first time since the beginnings of SIM 1 and 2 Modders and hackers will work together.

Core Hackers for SIMs 3 all of them all need to work together.  Awesome mod can be made better with everyone working together.  The SIMs Community will be better without the Drama.  No Drama just mod and hack and help each other out and give credit to where credit is due.

It would not be The Sims community without some drama. I am quite sure some is coming somewhere sooner or later. I already noticed Cyberops stuff was removed from Carrigon's board for some reason. 

But yeah, like I said, I think Pescado will produce and he's amiable to cooperating, which of course is totally dependent on other parties doing the same.

[StormchaserOne]

But yeah, like I said, I think Pescado will produce and he's amiable to cooperating, which of course is totally dependent on other parties doing the same.

All he needs to do is what he dislikes and does not want to produce.  Take for instance Teen/Adult he needed to do it.  Doubted I know many did not like it.  But, he did it to keep many of the community happy.  I can tell there will be many more things coming from Awesome Mod which Pescado dislikes and does not want to do.  But, in the end all the community members will be happy and Awesome Mod will truly be awesome. 

[CheritaChen]

I agree there seems to be some level of logic in the generation of wishes, and while I don't know how important it is to focus on the wishes themselves, it does indicate that the personality trait system is at least partially functional for something besides active behaviors. This is the aspect of the relevant wishes that makes them promising; that there is information which may be used by a story engine behind the scenes to influence progression.

There seem to be several key issues for a decent story mode. Not only does processing of background progression have to be worked out, but also storage of the data. As was mentioned below and elsewhere, non-active Sims do exhibit some superficially autonomous behaviors. The goal isn't just to have Don Lothario constantly flirting with anything on legs and being slapped (do TS3 Sims do the slapping thing?), but for there to be consequences beyond that moment.

The problem here is that the behaviors aren't really autonomous; they're pushed by the game when the Sim is "on the stage." In order for there to be progression in the way a true simulation would progress, this kind of pushing has to be made to happen at regular intervals to all Sims in the neighborhood, and that requires processing of the events before the next logical development can be pushed. I don't think it will even matter if the Sims are directed to appear on the same lot, except when it satisfies a relevant progression element (like the wedding scenario discussed), because these aren't real people. They don't have to actually meet in order to meet while we're not looking. So, a "beacon" might be interesting for other purposes, but I don't see it as essential or even useful for the sake of neighborhood background progression.

I haven't looked at the game code at all (to say I've got minimal experience in coding would be generous), so I am making assumptions about the game's functioning based on what I've read and observed. I have no idea how difficult it will be to construct an engine that calculates probable events, pushes a trigger to a given Sim, processing the results and using them in the next probability equation, and also determines how any other affected Sims (boss, fiance, etc.)  should be triggered so that the effect cascades through the community, and does this in a constant cycle. Maybe it won't take as much processor power as I'm envisioning, but I fear my little Macbook might not be up to the task. It's also going to require the saving of lots of data, which, considering some people are already having problems with ridiculous save times and file sizes, is disconcerting.

All that said, I think the wealth of beta testers available, their skill, and their experience working on previous mods will lead to something much closer to real story development than either the unmodified game or Indie Stone can offer, even if it takes a little time.

[StormchaserOne]

Well said Cherita, I totally agree.  With Story Progression EA just did not take there time with it.  I believe it was Story Progression and not marketing which is why they pushed back the date.  EA I think did a rush job on story progression.  And, it will take hackers like Indie and Pescado to completely fix it. 

[Motoki]

(do TS3 Sims do the slapping thing?)

Apparently they can. I saw it happen in a Youtube video, though it has never actually happened in my game, even when slap worthy things happened. It's a drastic change from TS2 which was a total slap fest. I swear if you looked at a sim cross eyed you'd get slapped in that game!

[chaos]

Story Mode has been working pretty well for me, with Awesomemod as my One core mod, but I started with a new town using an empty template, so maybe that has something to do with it. After the initial setup, I moved some of the premade sims from the Library into houses, as well as a few custom families. Some of the Library families already had children, or were pregnant already, but they've also been regularly popping out babbys. Some of the families never spawn, but the ones that do seem to make up for this, having 4 or 5 kids apiece. I've noticed a pattern with jobs. After I cheat the game-created sims into houses, one sim in each household gets a job after a few days to a week (sim time), but not immediately, and I've never seen more than one sim per household get a job.

When I first started playing the neighborhood, Story Progression was creating a new family per night, some small, some OMGsixchildren!!! Now, it's every second or third night. Many of those are singles or couples, and I cheat them into houses. Some of the original Library sims have turned elderly, in the meantime, and I expect to see death notices for them soon, but the majority of story progression notices that I get are befriendings, antagonizations, and jobs, with a few "new baby" notices mixed in. Not once have I seen a notification that a household has moved. It's possible that the sims just aren't far enough along in their careers to afford new houses (yet). My town doesn't seem to be stagnating, at all, and is keeping a good balance. I must admit, though, that I'm surprised to see procreation from some of the households. I created a roommate situation with a few of the MATY self-sims. Typpi now has a perpetually spawning harem.

[KarateKari]

Not once have I seen a notification that a household has moved.

This is all I ever see.  Literally half of my town plays musical houses almost every night.

[Motoki]

Not once have I seen a notification that a household has moved.

This is all I ever see.  Literally half of my town plays musical houses almost every night.

Me too. Also note that you won't actually see the notification that they moved unless you turn on the debug storymode notification messages, which are disabled by default. However if you get 1am pauses in your game you can rest assured that is what is causing it.

[Doc Doofus]

The other point I made is about Pescados ideas being "ambitious". I am still thinking that Pescados project has a high risk to fail. If I understand his ideas correctly, Pescados story mode implementation will be some sort of the good old life game, where the overall structure developing is determined by the micro behaviour of the single elements. From that game we know that obtaining a somewhat stable situation over generations is a good piece of luck.

EXCELLENT POINT.

For anybody not familiar with the game of Life, it's discussed here:
http://www.math.com/students/wonders/life/life.html

Life uses a bottom-up simulation.  There are a few elegant rules that spawn great complexity, and the interest is in the chaos that arises from the simple beginnings.  Unfortunately, chaos, although interesting, is the typical (even desired) result of A-life simulations.  But a village simulation like TS3 requires some kind negative feedback mechanism to prevent chaos.  (Like, too big, too small, too old, too unemployed populations).  And that is best instituted from the top-down level.  

So top-down and bottom-up are BOTH REQUIRED.

...there are probably EP-minded reasons behind some of the current failures. Thus I'm concerned that the first or second EP that they spit out is going to completely break all of the hard work involved in this project.

Ah, that's the exciting part of it.  I'm actually looking forward to that collision of wills.  EA has engaged in these battles before with their customers about how their game ought to work.  It's more fun than the game itself!  Personally, I want this to be so successful that it remains permanently stuck 10 inches up EA's rectum, turning slow circles.  I would like them to scratch their heads wondering how they can make THEIR EP compatible.  However, that is not likely.  It's just going to be a hilarious shit storm when they come out with their next EP.  

I believe it was Story Progression and not marketing which is why they pushed back the date.  EA I think did a rush job on story progression.

No, I really, really doubt that.  From what the vibe I am getting from Pescado's comments about story progression, it sounds like they didn't keep things simple enough.  I still strongly believe that Story Progression had to be the simplest and easiest part of the programming project for the Sims 3.  The fact that they did such a horrible job at it tells me that they just never bothered to QA it or think it through, and probably had people throwing in ad hoc ideas to the point where it became poorly functioning spaghetti nonsense.

Story Progression needs to be made simpler.

All he needs to do is what he dislikes and does not want to produce.  Take for instance Teen/Adult he needed to do it.

Yes.  I love the sly social commentary about the sims community implicit in the way he implemented it.

[J. M. Pescado]

The other point I made is about Pescados ideas being "ambitious". I am still thinking that Pescados project has a high risk to fail. If I understand his ideas correctly, Pescados story mode implementation will be some sort of the good old life game, where the overall structure developing is determined by the micro behaviour of the single elements. From that game we know that obtaining a somewhat stable situation over generations is a good piece of luck. You can have all sorts of developments from a fast-dying-out population over a locally or overall cyclic population to an exploding one.

Well, there are two control factors involved.
1. A population cannot explode because they are constrained by their living environment. The kind of environment you structure for them will directly affect their behavior.
2. A population that dies out simply fails the evolutionary test and will be replaced by new random immigrants. (The evolution simulation alone makes this interesting!)
In any case, this project is as much a science experiment for my amusement as it is intended as a Story Progression simulator. For those who want the statically anchored village,the IndieMod option, once the linkage is complete, should satisfy them.

For the purpose of the game only the stable populations would make sense IMHO. Of course one can fix odd developments by moving families in and out of the neighborhood whenever there is a need for that. But that is what the EA code does, and people don't seem to like it. There is a lot of ranting about "where are my families?" in the sim forum I normally read. And as the families the players want to stay in the neighbourhood not only include those actually played but as well those that are friends of the families actually played, the number of families available for moving out may be very limited.

To be honest, overpopulation is not as much a problem as underpopulation. Given the way I design, the environmental constraints will halt the population growth well before overpopulation becomes a factor. Since sims are not able to directly modify their environment without the player's intervention, to some degree the player's own actions define the neighborhood's flavour. If the neighborhood winds up as a retirement community, the player will know it is because he caused it!

The other problem I see is that micromanaging all sims in the neighborhood will overwhelm ordinary PCs. Although it would be nice to be able to watch initially dating sims, first kisses and all that stuff, I am more interested in having interesting sims to meet by those that I play. The Indiemod does deliver them.

Actually, the micromanagement is not as intensive as you'd think. It is often more computationally intensive the way Story Mode does it than the way I do it: Case in point: The Nightly Musical Houses Shuffle that is normally imposed by Story Mode hammers your computer far harder than ordering 30 sims to run high-resolution Supreme Commander simulations.

Pescado, I did not understand your comment that the sims are not motivated to get jobs :-) If I start a new family one of their first wishes is always to get one. If I would have to create a concept how to micromanage sims by the PC I would follow the path created by the wishes that appear. Most often they make sense.

Yes, but here's the thing: While the wishes appear, sims do not, in any way, act upon their wishes, and simply hang around listlessly in Story Mode until forcibly dragooned into a random job by the job boss-and-coworker engine.

[chaos]

Not once have I seen a notification that a household has moved.

This is all I ever see.  Literally half of my town plays musical houses almost every night.

Me too. Also note that you won't actually see the notification that they moved unless you turn on the debug storymode notification messages, which are disabled by default. However if you get 1am pauses in your game you can rest assured that is what is causing it.

I do have the notifications enabled. I see lots of antagonizing and befriending, some new jobs, and some new babies, but no promotions, demotions, firings, or moves. It's a new town, though. This will probably change over time.

[Kerryee]

Kinda funny to come on here today and find these thread, when the IndieStone mod vrs Awesomemod thing has been what is mainly on my mind lately.  I have been a very serious Awesome devotee, until I found the Indie mod two days ago. Since the, I've been kinda going back and forth, playing out with one for awhile, then quitting without saving and playing out with the other.  I've noticed that my "townie" (i.e., any Sim not being actively played by me, in my definition) Sims get promotions and demotions like crazy, have had a massive flood of babies, and the romance has been so heavy that there were no non-NPC single guys when I got around to finding my Sim a man with the IndieStone mod, while with the Awesomemod, the soap opera drama stuff takes a backburner, and the majority of the storyline notices I get are attempted move-outs and move-ins.  Too bad for me, I like soap opera drama.     But I dearly miss my other Awesomod benefits while playing with Indie, like the Smarter Chair Finder, No Magic Scrolls, etc.  I'd love more than anything to see the two combine somehow, though I understand that it won't be in the vein that I would hope to have.  So, here's my question: how badly will I fuck up my game by switching back and forth between the two mods?