Does the Vegetarian Trait affect anything besides food choices?

[geekgirl]

All your rattling on about how the typical domestic food beast isn't smart enough to defend itself shows very clearly you've not been around a healthy domestic food beast with its dander up. Note that 'lulled into a false sense of security and never saw it coming,' as per factory farming, doesn't count.

Uhhh....

SPOILERS AHEAD, DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE A SQUEAMISH PUSSY



  Food animals are pretty darned easy to kill. I have been around healthy domestic food beasts. I have raised (and hand raised some of them) sheep and goats, and I was first in line with the 'liver bowl' while dad was cleaning their carcasses. You know how easy they are to kill? Bowl of grain, walk up behind them with a gun, shoot them in the skull. They do not run away, they die immediately.  For chickens it's more like, chase 'em down, twist their neck and they die quickly, then chop off the head so you can bleed them for a little bit, then peel & eat.  Granted, we never did cows because our fences weren't that great, but we had friends who did and the process was no different, just ended with more meat (and you need a bigger gun).
  These animals were never mistreated, and all of them were organic, small farm raised ones (yes, I was very lucky growing up where I did, tyvm). Now, I do think we have a responsibility to our animals, since they are domestic, they depend on us for food, water, shelter, and protection, and we have the obligation to see they get those things. It's called 'animal husbandry'. Frankly, so-called 'animal rights' groups offend me, because they kind of miss the point, what with the releasing domesticated animals into the wild in unnatural habitats, 'adopting' animals just to kill them so nobody else will force the pooooor little things into SLAVERY!, and abundant hypocrisy. Can't we all just agree that if we've made it into a tame animal, we have to care for it?

[J. M. Pescado]

Actually, one of the primary reasons that tigers are endangered is over hunting by humans. Not for the meat, but for the fur, and for the 'medicinal' properties of its penis. Also just for sport. They aren't really very good at defending themselves against humans with guns. The reason we don't eat animals like tigers is that they don't do all that well in captivity and could not be mass produced the way cows and chickens can.

Actually, the simple reason we don't eat ANY carnivores is because it is completely uneconomical to produce, and they aren't generally regarded as tasty. Keep in mind that the basic rule is that when you feed an animal something, you'll only get out about 10% of what you feed it. Feeding a tiger, therefore, will transmute 10 units of meat into 1 unit of meat. This is incredibly stupid. Turning 10 units of plantmatter, most of it entirely indigestable anyway, into 1 unit of meat works. Turning 10 units of meat into 1 unit of meat is just stupid. Carnivores simply cannot be farmed for food. This is why you don't see anyone mass-farming cats or dogs as food, even where they will actually eat cats and dogs: It's always an opportunistic activity predicated on the availability of stray cats and dogs.

[gethane]

We do eat carnivorous fish.

[Aaroc]

Yeah, but fish are typically not domesticated. They are simply harvested from their homes and sent to slaughter.

I don't eat fish though.

[Trubble]

Unlike apples they do feel pain. 

Img snip


This message only for those vegetarians making this an ethical choice. Those of you choosing based on flavor or texture, carry on.

Just to note, we were discussing treatment before the killing not the killing part of the process. I don't disagree with the food chain.  

[Zazazu]

Uhhh....

SPOILERS AHEAD, DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE A SQUEAMISH PUSSY
<truncated for the squeamish pussies>

See, this doesn't bother me. Seven of my cousins grew up on a farm/ranch and I visited them a few times when I was little. I saw chickens and pigs get killed for supper. I still ate them. When you are running a moderate farm, though, you're mostly killing for your own supper, plus perhaps providing a bit to a butcher for cash. You're not killing thousands of animals a day via the most automated method possible, which often is not quick.

I saw this special on Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel about race horses and how they are sent to slaughter. It still haunts my dreams. There was nothing quick about it. It was horribly cruel. Stringing something up alive after beating it into submission by shooting it somewhere approximately in the region of the skull, over and over, with a machine until you finally hit the right spot...nothing deserves to spend its last few minutes that way. I don't care if they are slated for a table. I don't care if they have the brain the size of a pine nut. You don't treat anything that way.

[geekgirl]

O.o I can't imagine that would be very cost effective. Bullets are, what, a buck apiece?

[Drakron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse#Process

[Aquilegia]

You know how easy they are to kill? Bowl of grain, walk up behind them with a gun, shoot them in the skull.

Well, yeah, that would fall into the 'lulled into a false sense of security and never saw it coming' bit, wouldn't it? It'd be quite a lot harder if they were fighting at the time, which is why people do that--beats the hell out of ending up with casualties when you're trying to get your dinner.

[Silverdrake]

Speaking of carnivorous fish, here's some food for thought:

EPA Guidelines on Mercury in Fish

World's Fish Supply will run out by 2048

I know people at the USCG and NOAA, so this isn't hyperbole.

[geekgirl]

But why would they be fighting? Sheep don't fight, for instance, they run away. Goats would try to lick out the gun barrel in case you left some beer in it, so again, not too difficult. I've never seen a cow attack anyone, though a girl at our county fair had her head stepped on one year because cows are large, clumsy, and stupid. If a chicken is attacking, you grab it by the neck and POW! dinner..... I have no firsthand experience with pigs, so I will grant you that they may be dangerous if cornered.

[Zazazu]

O.o I can't imagine that would be very cost effective. Bullets are, what, a buck apiece?

Well, my cousins decapitated. Or, rather, my grand-uncle did the decapitation and my cousins did the cleaning. But, it's the same basic idea. One hit and they're dead.

Speaking of carnivorous fish, here's some food for thought:

EPA Guidelines on Mercury in Fish

World's Fish Supply will run out by 2048

I know people at the USCG and NOAA, so this isn't hyperbole.

Fixed your links. But yeah, this is something you have to watch if you primarily eat fish for protein. If you aren't breeding, 3 servings a week of standard fish should be just fine. Albacore tuna is equivalent to two servings, as are some other ones I can't recall at the moment because they aren't fish I generally have access to or would eat (shark? Hell no.) I prefer salmon and chunk light tuna, with occasional shrimp and white fish. Also, remember that where the fish swims can affect how much mercury it absorbs. Ocean perch has lower mercury than freshwater perch. This is a fair guide.

[scummy_minus]

There is actually a flash game where you go through the slaughterhouse process.

http://www.addictinggames.com/beefbash.html

[HeyYeah]

I've never seen a cow attack anyone

They will. Cows can be very protective animals and occasionally downright mean.

Also, pigs will kill you. On one side of my family, they're all farmers and several of them have died from pig related incidents

[Marhis]

Sorry, out of valuable thoughts, today. Please have a free related macro instead (cows can be cute).

[simmilk]

Google for video:  palin turkey farm 

[caterpillar]

I'm no supporter of Palin, and I do think she was stupid to not realize she would get flak for doing an interview with a turkey being slaughtered behind her, but I also thought people made way too big of deal about it. They were actually censor blurring out the turkey slaughter when presenting it on the news, and getting all squeamish about it. I try to make a point of not criticizing meat eaters, since I don't want them criticizing me (not that that stops them), but the one thing that really bothers me about most meat eaters is that they do get squeamish about animal slaughter, even when it's as relatively humane as what was going on in that Palin video. Seriously, if you are that grossed out by how the food you eat is produced, how do you still eat it?

[CheritaChen]

My sentiments exactly. If they're that bothered by it, how can they eat it without puking? To me it seems like these people are missing some vital connective synapses or something. I want to slap these types when I meet them. They're the epitome of hypocrisy in this discussion. If you've got any sense at all, either it bothers you, or it doesn't.

[SolaceDevotio]

You don't think something that's going to be giving up it's life so that you can fill your belly deserves to be treated with respect? I'm not saying don't eat em I'm saying they deserve respect. Unlike apples they do feel pain. 

I'm in a Social and Moral Ethics class and we just read a bunch of essays about the morality of eating meat.  One interesting opinion in one of the essays is that with rights comes responsibilities.  Since we cannot hold animals accountable for their actions (aka jail and other punishments), then they do not have rights.  I'm not saying I agree with this, just interesting food for thought.

I think that's a ridiculous idea.  We can't hold infants accountable for their actions either, but they have a right to be treated with respect and not be tortured.

[Georgette]

I think that's a ridiculous idea.  We can't hold infants accountable for their actions either, but they have a right to be treated with respect and not be tortured.

Now, let's not use infants to support an argument within MATY. Remember the baby barbeque for TS2? 

BTW - I completely agree with CheritaChen. Can't kill it? Don't eat it. One of the main reasons I'm vegetarian.

[viewpoint]

O.o I can't imagine that would be very cost effective. Bullets are, what, a buck apiece?

Guns and explosives are cheap. Bullets are about $0.50 each. We're not talking about specialized ammo for accuracy (match grade, subsonic, etc) or for damage per round (hollow points for eg). At point blank, really, any ball of lead works on the head.

Compare price of bullets to say... hmm... stationery. A good pen could cost even more! Used to be that the "The pen is mightier than the sword". Seems today that "A bullet is cheaper than a pen". Mightier than a pen or not, I don't know.

They taste good whether you mistreat them or not.

Oh, you poor, sad thing. Either you've never had properly raised meat, or your tastebuds are so shot you can't taste the difference.

Ah, don't remind me! I live in a city, but do try to get away to the burbs once in a while. The meat sure tastes different, even at fast food restaurants like KFC.

My sentiments exactly. If they're that bothered by it, how can they eat it without puking? To me it seems like these people are missing some vital connective synapses or something. I want to slap these types when I meet them. They're the epitome of hypocrisy in this discussion. If you've got any sense at all, either it bothers you, or it doesn't.

I have some friends who had to do a dissection one morning, then have lunch at a steak house! Heh. Perspectives can change quickly when we look too closely at "what we are made of inside".

Most of us are squeamish about our insides, though we still need to live with our insides.

I read something about 2 key moodlets (in real life): aversion and craving. Supposedly, both are bad. Removing aversion to our insides would allow us to live simpler lives (and not as hypochondriacs). Removing craving to erm, eternal bodily existence, might let us slaughter our foods without getting squeamish (via empathy)?

I once heard someone say: "stand ground/firm and observe/learn, rather than run from one troubled scene to another". Wait, where were we? Ok, I gotta stand my ground, collect my thoughts. Where the hell is my ground? Hmm.

I don't have any evidence of this (no vegetarian sims here), but the ingame text implies that vegetarian have longer lifespans, but will vomit if they eat real meat.

I still want to know this.

I've looked through the GameplayData.package file. Found the nauseous moodlet. But didn't find anything to do with lifespan. The ingame text did put ellipsis ("...") after the "said to live longer lives" thing.

I have not seen any evidence supporting this. For that matter, it's not firmly supported in real life...and even if it WERE in the game, it would only extend the part of the lifespan you want to see least, anyway, so lose-lose.

I read something about teeth hollowing out from the inside if we lack meats. It's one (good) thing to have a healthy dose of veggies (to reduce inflamation tendencies?). It's another (bad) thing to miss meats altogether, I think.

About the GameplayData.package, I have a feeling some things are hardcoded. As in, the developers forgot to make them tunable.

Addressing the original question: My veggie-Sim passed on last night at the age of 111.  She was also athletic, and would work out to the TV or stereo constantly -- I couldn't keep the woman still!  However, I've had Sims live to 125, 109, and 106 without being vegetarian or athletic.  Seems to me veggie-Sims get the same 14% chance of croaking every day beyond 90 that any other Sim does, but it's purelly anecdotal.

Thanks for the info! My mid-life crisis is gonna gimme something else other than Vegetarian.

[J. M. Pescado]

I have not seen any evidence supporting this. For that matter, it's not firmly supported in real life...and even if it WERE in the game, it would only extend the part of the lifespan you want to see least, anyway, so lose-lose.

[IgnorantBliss]

Removing aversion to our insides would allow us to live simpler lives (and not as hypochondriacs).

I don't understand what you mean by this. Could you elaborate a bit? Simpler how? I don't suffer from aversion to my "insides" but I don't see how it makes my life simpler, or how it would make me less of a hypochondriac.

I read something about teeth hollowing out from the inside if we lack meats.

What?

[J. M. Pescado]

Guns and explosives are cheap. Bullets are about $0.50 each. We're not talking about specialized ammo for accuracy (match grade, subsonic, etc) or for damage per round (hollow points for eg). At point blank, really, any ball of lead works on the head.

You pay that much? You're getting ripped off.

I read something about teeth hollowing out from the inside if we lack meats. It's one (good) thing to have a healthy dose of veggies (to reduce inflamation tendencies?). It's another (bad) thing to miss meats altogether, I think.

I haven't heard anything like that, although lacking things that are present in the meat and bones of your prey can't be good for your skelebrates. As for vegetables, most vegetables are composed nearly entirely of cellulose and are therefore completely indigestable. The only benefit you get from eating them is roughage (even cats consume things for this purpose), and frankly, that is simply not something that is REALLY necessary given the alternative options of simply eating your sensitive documents you don't want anyone to find.

[viewpoint]

Removing aversion to our insides would allow us to live simpler lives (and not as hypochondriacs).

I don't understand what you mean by this. Could you elaborate a bit? Simpler how? I don't suffer from aversion to my "insides" but I don't see how it makes my life simpler, or how it would make me less of a hypochondriac.

That was a simplistic example for illustrative purposes, that bit about making life simpler and less hypochrondiac-like.

The aversion part... lemme see how to explain it. Ok. If my Sim dies of old age, I can see it in one of 2 ways. I can be pained, wondering when there ever will be a time when a Sim grows up exactly like it did, with all the memories that it accrued.

Or I can just let go, understanding nature for what it is. Everything that has a beginning has an end. And before we all get too emo from this, that's not the end of it! Everything that has an end has a beginning. Energy cannot be destroyed; only converted from one form to another.

If I am averse to old age or death, then I might do stupid things when faced with those parts of nature. I can become irrational.

If I crave old age or death (or living), I could also become stupid.

I love Kung Fu Panda for a cute saying that the wise and lovely Oo Guay (Turtle) quipped. "Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mystery, today is a gift and that's why we call it the present". I know, it's an old adage, and it's probably trite by now. But it's still cute.

Hold firm to the present, because it is the only thing we can mould. Anything is possible in the future, as long as we work with the present.

I read something about teeth hollowing out from the inside if we lack meats.

What?

Yeah, my reactions too when I first read it. rosenshyne posted something about plants screaming when killed. I remember reading something about Buddhism forbidding even the killing of plants. But I'm no expert.

I just eat what I eat. Avoid addictions (sugar, salt, anything). And just be at peace as much as I can. Oh, dang that fly! I'm a kill you later! Peacefully.

But veggie is the only defence we got against inflammatory tendencies, I think. Just about any ailments has to do with inflammations: old age, allergies, scleroses, etc.