anyone noticed this in CAS?

[Sage Sim]

LOL I don't care and I'm lazy haha. But I'll write her. I wouldn't want it to be your fault in case something else goes wrong because we know enough things are already your fault.

Hi, it's Gigge (I can't sign in as me because I made my last password so stealth even I can't remember it  ).  I already got a note about your work Motoki and am going through the thread now.  So, you can resume laziness immediately . . . or write me anyway if you want, lol. Thanks for looking out for the seniors.

Also, thanks for the note Witch.  I responded that the links on my site should be fixed now, but a couple of people have said that my responses aren't returned or have a completely blank message. So, I apologize if you didn't get an answer.

[Erdehel]

Today I made a whole set of adult males. I completely redid the faces. I noticed something weird though that may make things a little more complicated than I thought. I built a completely new sim in bodyshop choosing the randomize face button. I made him old and noticed that his face was not matching the face my adult man had.

So I made some investigation on this. I used one of my new adult faces on a new sim in bodyshop. I didn't blend his face with any other. I made this sim older and it turned out that his face as elder man was the face he would have had if I had not replaced it. This simply means that the game doesn't extrapolate the face to make the sims look older but takes the elder man face template corresponding to the original face. Same thing for making sims younger.

This makes sense but also means that to replace a particular face you have to rebuild the templates for all ages. That's rather tough work.

Can somebody confirm this?

[Motoki]

That seems to be the case yes and to do a complete replacement it looks like you'd have to do all the age groups and both genders which will be a royal pain in the ass.

But since most townies and service npcs are adults I do think it will still be a great help even just having the adult faces replaced because I am tired of looking at the ugliness.

[witch]

Also, thanks for the note Witch.  I responded that the links on my site should be fixed now, but a couple of people have said that my responses aren't returned or have a completely blank message. So, I apologize if you didn't get an answer.

Hi Gigge, I got your answer fine thanks. I just wasn't going to load your mailbox with a 'thanks for the email' email.

[AllenABQ]

Today I made a whole set of adult males. I completely redid the faces. I noticed something weird though that may make things a little more complicated than I thought. I built a completely new sim in bodyshop choosing the randomize face button. I made him old and noticed that his face was not matching the face my adult man had.

So I made some investigation on this. I used one of my new adult faces on a new sim in bodyshop. I didn't blend his face with any other. I made this sim older and it turned out that his face as elder man was the face he would have had if I had not replaced it. This simply means that the game doesn't extrapolate the face to make the sims look older but takes the elder man face template corresponding to the original face. Same thing for making sims younger.

This makes sense but also means that to replace a particular face you have to rebuild the templates for all ages. That's rather tough work.

Can somebody confirm this?

In addition to what Motoki said, it really depends on what you are shooting for by replacing the face templates.  If you want complete age transitions for all faces, then yes, you've got to reprogram the whole thing.

However, you could take the position that the age transitions don't matter.  What you REALLY want is different looking sims across the spectrum of ages.  In that case, putting different sims in the same "age slot" wouldn't matter.

Thanks! This is awesome! Some of them are still a big on the ugly side, but I'll just follow the tutorial and edit them myself.

You're welcome!  I wasn't going for 'beauty' with this set.  Just taming the exaggerated features of the defaults.  In any case no matter how one edits the templates nothing can protect against the game deciding to create an NPC/townie who has asian features, dark skin, and a red mohawk.  It's too bad we can't associate certain faces with the other genetics (skin, eyes, hair).

BTW, I've finished the female set.  I'm going to post the whole shebang on MTS2, with credits to Motoki of course.

But for the moment, here they are if ya want 'em right now!

<file removed for now>

[Andygal]

will you be doing the elders, children and Teens/YAs?

[Motoki]

I don't think it's necessary to do young adults since they are sort of a faked age group that are really adults. I checked and University didn't ship with any new archetype face templates either so they must just use the adult ones.

[Andygal]

I think they use the teen face structures but I'm not sure. That's just what I have heard.

[witch]

Just a query, I'm not quite clear. If a townie has a new default face, then they are moved in to a lot, then they age - what will happen to their face?

[Motoki]

I think they (Young Adults) use the teen face structures but I'm not sure. That's just what I have heard.

A lot of people are confused on that point. They actual use the teen texture but on the adult head mesh and adult body. The differences between the teen and adult textures are very subtle. The adult texture has some very faint fine lines that the teen texture doesn't but you'd honestly have to open them both in Photoshop and compare the two side by side which is what I did.

At any rate, the head meshes are completely the same between adults and young adults.

[Motoki]

Just a query, I'm not quite clear. If a townie has a new default face, then they are moved in to a lot, then they age - what will happen to their face?

Most likely they'd revert to the default Maxis template for that age group if no custom one exists to override it. You can kind of get around this effect, I think, for CAS created sims by combining in just a little bit of another template or making a slight change to a template face, thereby making it sort of custom and not corresponding to any one template, but you can't really do this for townies, so if you move one in and they age you might get an unpleasant surprise!

Then again, that's true in the game sometimes even without replacing the templates. I had one of my teen girls go with Hal Capp, a Maxis pre-created sim in Veronaville. He as a cute kid and teen but oh my god when he became an adult was he ever ugly. LOL

[Andygal]

At any rate, the head meshes are completely the same between adults and young adults.

ah thani you for enlightening me. That's what I get for talking about things I know nothing about.

[Motoki]

lol don't worry about it. I used to think that too when university first came out. I don't recall what gave me that impression. Maybe it was an interview with someone at Maxis or the Prima Guide. I bet it was the Prima Guide, they're wrong about a lot of stuff.

[Oddysey]

It was one of those idiotic "Letters Home" review type things. "I have an adult body, but still keep my teen face" or something along those lines. And the different texture is noticable for men, at least, but much less so for women. For me, anyway. Mainly because the textures for men have more forehead lines than the women.

[Andygal]

Yeah, I think that's where it came from. I read those reviews.

[AllenABQ]

Just a query, I'm not quite clear. If a townie has a new default face, then they are moved in to a lot, then they age - what will happen to their face?

Most likely they'd revert to the default Maxis template for that age group if no custom one exists to override it. You can kind of get around this effect, I think, for CAS created sims by combining in just a little bit of another template or making a slight change to a template face, thereby making it sort of custom and not corresponding to any one template, but you can't really do this for townies, so if you move one in and they age you might get an unpleasant surprise!

Then again, that's true in the game sometimes even without replacing the templates. I had one of my teen girls go with Hal Capp, a Maxis pre-created sim in Veronaville. He as a cute kid and teen but oh my god when he became an adult was he ever ugly. LOL

Dang!  Well I guess this undermines my earlier theory about putting different templates in different age slots.  I just confirmed what you said by moving in the "improved face" townies into a household in my test neighborhood, then age them with a cheat.  They became elders with the old template features.  One pretty woman spouted enormous lips in addition to turning gray!

Sigh... well I guess I won't post the sets elsewhere until I get them coordinated for all ages.

[Motoki]

Well the elders seem to be the only other ones worth worrying about IMO. The toddlers and children I don't think are so bad. Even most of the teens aren't that bad really. And I'm pretty sure you don't need to mess with Young Adults.

[Andygal]

well I often marry/move in townies and NPCs. So I would like to see all ages fixed up so I don't have to deal with weirdness when they have kids.

[AllenABQ]

well I often marry/move in townies and NPCs. So I would like to see all ages fixed up so I don't have to deal with weirdness when they have kids.

Yeah I guess one thing that is not resolved yet about this is if someone moves in a townie or NPC and then has a child with them, which template age slot for the townie contributes to the genetic profile of the baby?  All of them?  One of them?  If the kid get's Mom Townie's mouth, does it change from fat lips to no fat-lips transitioning to YA/Adult and then back to fat lips when an elder?  Hmm....

Would probably be better to do all the ages, even though its time consuming.

[Motoki]

I think that is what would happen yes. I think the features would come from, say for example, AmArchHeart for whatever the age group applicable. So I'm betting if the kid has the dad's mouth, as a child it would grab the lips from the AmArchHeart child template, and as a teen it would grab them from the AmArchHeart teen template etc.

Ideally, a full replacement would be best, but I do feel like the most extreme features tend not to come out in full force until adulthood. Also, I don't think this will by any means prevent people from ending up with weird looking children. The way the game combines features randomly can often lead to less than desirably results even between 2 very attractive sims.

Still, it should help at least and get rid of the most extreme Maxis features.

[AllenABQ]

I think that is what would happen yes. I think the features would come from, say for example, AmArchHeart for whatever the age group applicable. So I'm betting if the kid has the dad's mouth, as a child it would grab the lips from the AmArchHeart child template, and as a teen it would grab them from the AmArchHeart teen template etc.

Ideally, a full replacement would be best, but I do feel like the most extreme features tend not to come out in full force until adulthood. Also, I don't think this will by any means prevent people from ending up with weird looking children. The way the game combines features randomly can often lead to less than desirably results even between 2 very attractive sims.

Still, it should help at least and get rid of the most extreme Maxis features.

Yes, you're right.

I did some experimentation.  I was hoping that by starting with a template and changing it slightly or substituting in other parts that other ages would then adopt the new face as a whole unit and find new settings for the whole face that would be consistent.

What I found was that only those parts that are altered with controls are affected.

So I had a Maxis adult female to start with, and I changed her eyes slightly.  Then I aged her to elder.  Her eyes retained the new shape I'd given them, but every other face part changed to the parts the elder template was based on, including fat lips.  Same when I changed her to teen.

This is gonna wreck havoc with trying to create new playable families in CAS unless you have a full set of changed templates.  If you load in just the adult templates, any sim you create based on a template will undergo radical changes into or out of the adult phase unless you first design them as an adult and adjust the sliders for every feature so it will be a "custom" setting.



I've taken down the files I've posted as a result.  Those that have them may like to continue experimenting with them or use them as a basis for making the other ages, but on their own I think they'll be a source of frustration with playable sims.

PS -- And I'm just hoping that already existing playable sims in the game that might have unchanged template parts aren't affected by the template changes either! 

[Motoki]

This is gonna wreck havoc with trying to create new playable families in CAS unless you have a full set of changed templates.  If you load in just the adult templates, any sim you create based on a template will undergo radical changes into or out of the adult phase unless you first design them as an adult and adjust the sliders for every feature so it will be a "custom" setting.

Can't you just start off with one template and then move the bar just ever so slightly to blend in just a tiny bit of another full face template, thus that should make their whole face and all their features neither one template nor another.

At any rate, I'm going to keep running your files in my game. I'm very picky about my own created sims and design every last feature on them anyhow. And no matter how good my sims look their kids always end up looking funky so I always end up giving them surgery at some point too heh. I really mainly just want the townies to not look like deformed gorillas and am tired of having to grab them all and make them selectable, give them surgery etc etc over and over for each one so I think your files will solve that problem at least.

[AllenABQ]

This is gonna wreck havoc with trying to create new playable families in CAS unless you have a full set of changed templates.  If you load in just the adult templates, any sim you create based on a template will undergo radical changes into or out of the adult phase unless you first design them as an adult and adjust the sliders for every feature so it will be a "custom" setting.

Can't you just start off with one template and then move the bar just ever so slightly to blend in just a tiny bit of another full face template, thus that should make their whole face and all their features neither one template nor another.

OK, I think I figured this deal out after some experiment and observation in both BS and CAS.  The answer to your question, unfortunately, is no.   

The only way a sim becomes "unanchored" from a template (or a composite of template face parts) and its age slots is if you save a copy of him/her.  Then if you start a new sim based off a saved copy, changing ages translates the face properly.  Easy enough to do in BodyShop.  The only way to do this in CAS though is by loading a saved BodyShop sim.

Creating a new sim from a default template in BodyShop or CAS (starting from scratch using the "+" thumbnail in BS, or working with a sim that started out being randomly generated in either) binds that sim to the template or pieces of templates it is using.  And apparently this effect carries over into the game for sims that were generated from templates (i.e. the Townie Maker) per my ealier experiment where aging one of these townies made her use the elder Maxis-fugly template that hadn't been changed.

The only thing I don't know yet is if any CAS-created playable sims that were not started from a saved BodyShop creation share the same vulnerability to the age template binding that the townies do.  I suspect they do -- it makes a kind of linear sense.  Sims born in the game should be safe though.

Which all still makes the case for creating complete age groups because not everyone creates their CAS sims first in BodyShop.  This is tedious, but not hard.  Just use the saved adult sims, age transition them, save them again, and extract the info in the same manner suggested in the tutorial.

EDIT: I'm also not sure about the following situation.  If a CAS-created playable sim is bound to the templates, and then the changed templates are introduced, will the sim in question then use the new template when age transitioning -- in essense using the deviation of clicks used to create its uniqueness and then applying those deviations to the next age template it transitions to?  The bad news would be that if its true, then even replacing all the templates in every age group could still mean radical face changes for any CAS-created sim that was made prior to introducing the new templates.  The only neighborhoods that would be immune would be those started from scratch with the new templates and those pre-played neighborhoods where all CAS sims were created from BodyShop files.

I think this is going to require a bit more experimentation before general release to the public!

[Erdehel]

Which all still makes the case for creating complete age groups because not everyone creates their CAS sims first in BodyShop.  This is tedious, but not hard.  Just use the saved adult sims, age transition them, save them again, and extract the info in the same manner suggested in the tutorial.

Tedious, yes... sigh... I also came to that conclusion. I think that only a few changes in a new face will make that face look older. Applying the same kind of changes to all the new templates will probably do the job. Same for the teens. I agree with Motoki that it is not so important to change the children.

EDIT: I'm also not sure about the following situation.  If a CAS-created playable sim is bound to the templates, and then the changed templates are introduced, will the sim in question then use the new template when age transitioning -- in essense using the deviation of clicks used to create its uniqueness and then applying those deviations to the next age template it transitions to?  The bad news would be that if its true, then even replacing all the templates in every age group could still mean radical face changes for any CAS-created sim that was made prior to introducing the new templates.  The only neighborhoods that would be immune would be those started from scratch with the new templates and those pre-played neighborhoods where all CAS sims were created from BodyShop files.

This afternoon I'll do some experimentation on this. I consider that the game acts like this: amArchHeart + tweaking becomes emArchHeart + same tweaking when growing old.

What I hope: New amArchHeart + tweaking becomes New emArchHeart + tweaking.

What I fear: New amArchHeart + tweaking becomes original emArchHeart + tweaking.

It all depends on how Maxis has bound the faces to the templates.

[Erdehel]

Well, I have some bad news and some good news.

Concerning the elders. Good news. I used the amArchCaus geometry files (That's the 18th male face in BS or CAS) and took these to replace the the emArchCaus geometry files. This works fine: the old man resulting out of this looks fine. I noticed that the game adds some tweaking to the face, the same way it does when switching from young adult to adult. This works in the game, in CAS and in BS.

Concerning the teens. Bad news. You can't just do what I did with the elders. The face gets completely distorted because the mesh coordinates are verticaly way too heigh. Besides, the resulting face doesn't look like belonging to a teen. Same behaviour in the game, in CAS and in BS. I guess that the teen templates must be completely rebuild.

And now rather good news: The game uses the new templates when calculating a new face geometry: I had a afArchHeart (1st female adult with original template) marry a amArchCaus (18th adult male with new template). I made them have a male child in CAS. That child took most of its genetic appearance out of the male. Lets say the game took 10% out of afArchHeart and 90% out of amArchCaus and transformed this in 10% cuArchHeart and 90% cuArchCaus. (cu stands for Child Unified, I think). Since the xxArchCaus templates are quite ugly, the child was also very ugly. Growing that child older in the game, in CAS and in BS resulted in the game using the new templates of tmArchCaus, amArchCaus and emArchCaus to calculate the new face geometry when reaching the corresponding ages. tmArchCaus was still completely distorted so it was pretty obvious that the game was using the new template.

Another solution has yet to be found for the teens, but I think the new template stuff is really going to work.