Crash on resized lots at 7PM -- any ideas?

[ingeli]

Of course, the keyword is "playable" - maybe I will agree with you when I playtested the houses more. But its good even if you can make them for deco. Time will tell.

[nil]

Omg, I think I killed the discussion here somehow as well. 

[Doc Doofus]

I'm still playing them, although i'm past just 'testing" them.

Interesting observations: If you can just get past that first day in the house, everything works fine thereafter.  I had a great deal of trouble, though, getting past the first day on a vacation lot using one of my own packaged 1x1's.  I tweaked the lot a couple of times in build mode, but it still crashed when I moved a family in.  Finally, I tried repainting and changing the roof, which I Had done before successfully.  Strangely, that worked.  I haven't done an exhaustive test on this, but I wonder if just changing the roof in unoccupied build mode is enough to fix the lot.

[Emma]

This might sound silly, but why don't you try packaging the lots without roofs, no 'roof flat tiles, anything. Leave the lot open at the top. Then when the lot is placed, whoever has downloaded it can go into it in unoccupied build mode and add a roof. Might just work if what Doc Doofus is saying about changing the roof colours is all he needs to do.

[J. M. Pescado]

I suppose you never really do until you see evidence of it, which could happen quite a ways down the line.  But I have been playing with these for several nights now and I have seen no suggestions of on-going corruption.  And I'm going to continue playing it for the foreseeable future, so I'll report back if anything unusual comes up. 

Have you had reports of any corruption?  You have been posting these on the net for a while now (I haven't been following the MTS2 thread) so you would know if anybody has experienced that.

It's very unlikely that this condition would corrupt anything, because the game simply crashes and burns spectacularly, preventing the data from saving.

There is only one condition under which this could potentially damage the game saves, and that is if a character was created in that session: I have noticed that the game will write out character files for characters that should not have been committed to disk yet, as can be seen when doing CAS on totally deleted neighborhood, and if the game were to terminate unexpectedly, those files would get left behind, gunking up your data.

[pbox]

There is only one condition under which this could potentially damage the game saves, and that is if a character was created in that session: I have noticed that the game will write out character files for characters that should not have been committed to disk yet, as can be seen when doing CAS on totally deleted neighborhood, and if the game were to terminate unexpectedly, those files would get left behind, gunking up your data.

A-ha .. thanks for that info. Might that be an explanation for why only CAS sims seemed to crash? The game writing those character files before/during/after the shrinking business, I mean?

why don't you try packaging the lots without roofs, no 'roof flat tiles, anything. Leave the lot open at the top. Then when the lot is placed, whoever has downloaded it can go into it in unoccupied build mode and add a roof.

Firstly, I'm not going to package any shrunk lots (and I hope nobody else will either) before this isn't fixed; secondly you can't add roofs edge to edge on any lot (except allegedly hipped auto-roofs), so it wouldn't work anyway.

[J. M. Pescado]

A-ha .. thanks for that info. Might that be an explanation for why only CAS sims seemed to crash? The game writing those character files before/during/after the shrinking business, I mean?

I honestly don't know why CAS sims crash. Does this only afflict CAS sims fresh off the boat, or does it also afflict sims that, at one point, may have originated as CAS sims, but have been played for some time? What about born-in-game? It is entirely possible that the CAS-sim issue is purely a red herring. I would imagine the true issue is still objects being placed in illegal places on the lot. Clearly, there is something about walls that is bad for the game when the wall is placed flush with the edge of the lot. Does the problem entirely go away when the wall is set one tile in (the game normally insists regular walls be two tiles in, but greenhouse walls can be placed at one tile)? Clearly fences do not trigger the problem. What about if the wall is placed such that only the edges run into the side? You could simply leave that "edge" unsealed, as it is offworld anyway.

[nil]

Pescado,

Actually, I've manually made a 14x20 lot as the smallest overlapping lots for rowhouses.
Since it's done manually, I can't be expected to edit the arrays chunk by chunk to go to both the left and the right of the lot.

So, in this instance, the 4 block rows are on the left hand of the lot.

Here's the link to reach that lot download "Moi_DR14x20_LightdeFL.rar"
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost.php?p=1791493&postcount=295

Also just in case for those who may be interested, that post has shown how the lot terrain is easily switched.



As for lots with just walls @ the edges, I've not come across a crash at all so far personally.
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost.php?p=1811531&postcount=859

However, the roof tests got me in questions.
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost.php?p=1814222&postcount=963
http://www.modthesims2.com/showpost.php?p=1815065&postcount=989
Only the half gabled roof with 3 attic walls at the edges had crashed by the day/night toggle @ build mode but then no more crash on newer instances of that same build feature and the only difference is the saved fixed lot was then rotated in the same neighbourhood.  Gonna test if that's a factor.

Roofs crossing the trimmed and the reserved absolutely caused crashes on loading in all cases in my experiments.   That fits in pbox's roof test results.
However, new CAS families can still move in and played well for at least a sims day!  There's at least the shadowing problem.  The arrays for it was clearly messed up.

Please note I "clamped" the neighbourhood.package file and sometimes even the lot package file with simpe to avoid over-writing on these files in the experiments.  I might delete the tmp files as well or let them replace dependent on if the testing resulted in a crash.

[Doc Doofus]

The reason for the 2-square limit on walls (but not on fences) might have to do with things like box windows, which can extend out from the window an extra space or two.

I have had crashes with NON-CAS Sims...  But the problem is more reproducible using CAS Sims, so it makes more sense to test it that way.

This may be bullshit speculation, but I think the problem has to do with something not getting initialized correctly.  Perhaps tweaking the building just the right way causes the game to do some necessary housecleaning that removes the problem.

The ones that I build in my BV game work fine every time, but the ones that I plop down as new copies from a PACKAGED version of that same house seem to have problems that require a build-mode tweaking to correct.

PBox or somebody said that there were reports on MTS2 of somebody having problems with a house that had a flat roof.  I haven't tried that.

[Emma]

why don't you try packaging the lots without roofs, no 'roof flat tiles, anything. Leave the lot open at the top. Then when the lot is placed, whoever has downloaded it can go into it in unoccupied build mode and add a roof.

Firstly, I'm not going to package any shrunk lots (and I hope nobody else will either) before this isn't fixed; secondly you can't add roofs edge to edge on any lot (except allegedly hipped auto-roofs), so it wouldn't work anyway.

I didn't mean offer them for general download, I meant for testing purposes. I can't see these lots ever working anyway and I wouldn't ever either 1) make one for general download or 2) download one for playing with.

ps. You came across as very rude and terse in your post. All that was lacking was a emotie giving me the finger or saying 'you suck'.

[J. M. Pescado]

Actually, I've manually made a 14x20 lot as the smallest overlapping lots for rowhouses.
Since it's done manually, I can't be expected to edit the arrays chunk by chunk to go to both the left and the right of the lot.

Is that a legal lot size? I thought neighborhood terrain was parceled out in 10x10 blocks as a minimum size quantum? So how is it that you can make a *14* size lot? Wouldn't this still be a 2x2?

[Inge]

It can be done.  I accidentally made an L-shaped 11x10 lot when I was testing shrinking manually.

[J. M. Pescado]

What does the game think of this, though? Is this treated as 2x2 or an oddly-shaped 1x1?

ps. You came across as very rude and terse in your post. All that was lacking was a emotie giving me the finger or saying 'you suck'.

Have you forgotten where you are, EMMA? But anyway, ALL EMMAS SUCK.

[Emma]

What does the game think of this, though? Is this treated as 2x2 or an oddly-shaped 1x1?

ps. You came across as very rude and terse in your post. All that was lacking was a emotie giving me the finger or saying 'you suck'.

Have you forgotten where you are, EMMA? But anyway, ALL EMMAS SUCK.

*smacks forehead

Of course, this is Maty-all good manners must be left at the door before ye enter

[nil]

Pescado,

It's the neighbourhood presentation limitted to 10x10 tiles scheme in terms of the scale measurement in lot (lot grids).
so, a lot can be 30x30 in its size in terms of lot grids while its presentation in the neighbourhood  can be 1x1, 1x2, 5x6 or a matching one 2x3 or 3x2.
Or even vice versa, 7x7 in the neighbourhood can represent a 20x20 lot.
Note the lot's actual location can be switched or tweaked from its original location.



The 14x20 lot I made has 1x1 presentation in the neighbourhood view, so you can see how the rowhouse illusion can be approached.
Since there'll be no after-build or after-play lot shrinking, it's assumed to be as safe as the mini plain lots.  After all, manual resizing relies on the game engine to do the rests to fix the arrays by itself, so we assume the game engine can presently fix better than adding or trimming arrays.

But if we can figure out all the essential precautions, LA may eventually do a better job with more features.

The expected largest and most stable lot is still 64x64.  I'll release it once tested more and longer in more instances... 

But so far, these manually resized plain lots are working fine just like the mini lots in my experiences.  Surely, anyone if interested can download them to test.  They're all attached in the MTS2 R&D thread.  Search "14x20" and/or "64x64" in that thread.

Yet, to get the "ideal" type of row-house, we're still looking forwards to any solution to the shrinking method.

[Inge]

Yet, to get the "ideal" type of row-house, we're still looking forwards to any solution to the shrinking method.

As far as I am concerned the feature is completed and working, in my game   It hasn't yet crashed for me, and frankly I don't mind if it does, I will just load the game up again.  I might move the family out of that particular house if I can't play it

[Mootilda]

The 14x20 lot I made has 1x1 presentation in the neighbourhood view, so you can see how the rowhouse illusion can be approached.
Since there'll be no after-build or after-play lot shrinking, it's assumed to be as safe as the mini plain lots.  After all, manual resizing relies on the game engine to do the rests to fix the arrays by itself, so we assume the game engine can presently fix better than adding or trimming arrays.

This is an interesting area for study, as an alternative to the current LotExpander shrinking feature.  However, I don't believe that we can consider this to be safe, just because these lots aren't shrunk.  I'd need more evidence that the game is able to properly handle lots with mismatched sizes.

[nil]

Lol, the walls at the edges are all working fine with me personally just like Inge's experiences.

Most roofs are working well in my base game as well except the one in question.

I guess people can just build their walls, foundations, half-walls and roofs (those can't built on the whole last grid row at the edges) before lot shrinking and build the rests (including windows, doors, garages, etc...) after the lot shrinking.  That should be a safer approach than trimming a fully built lot.  Crossing walls, roofs, halfwalls on both the trimmed and the reserved is still regarded as a no-no unless it's for experiments.

lol, 14x20 and 64x64 lots are working well in my experiments and so I personally think they're safe... in my game copies, settings, and usages.
Sorry, there was a defect in that 14x20 copy but now fixed. please re-download that one for testing.
Please note that currently, any new 2D array added may use 41 instead of 57, and now I'm considering to make the 2D arrays values to follow the next 10x scheme for foreseeable additions.


After all, I'll test them further...   I shan't test them in EP4 or SP...  Those I shan't buy and personally don't want them unless someone give them to me as gifts so then I may have a copy of them.

the greenhouse fence may just well support that the last 2nd lining may not be as significant to be limitted to built on. After all, there might have been fixes on this since EP5. remember, EP 5 is actually a big-fix patch to improve and enhance the game interface and that's what Maxis should head on.  Maxis needn't create beautiful meshes or texturing, modders know what they like best and do their arts.  Maxis needs make the object bases to facilitate modders' creations or arts and  improve and enhance the game interface.  I guess I said this over and over.  And seemingly, Maxis has picked this up by chance or what.

PS. the sauna room is an interesting object to study for walls.

All in all, I personally still want the row houses by means of shrinking the lots.

[Mootilda]

lol, 14x20 and 64x64 lots are working well in my experiments and so I personally think they're safe... in my game copies, settings, and usages.

Just tried playing your 14x20 lot.  Crashed within a minute or so of starting to play.  Tried again, crashed again.  It really doesn't like adding maxis-made terrain paints.

[nil]

Mootilda,,

Sorry for a defect in that copy. My mistake...
I've updated the post for the download, and I'm now pretty sure the lot texture also affects the terrain painting.
Please re-download it for further testing...

eek, I can't replicate what I did now...
The shadowing doesn't go the way it was...

Now, I doubt myself too about these lots ...

[Inge]

Now... is *that* possibly what's causing the crashing?  Terrain paints on the shrunk bit?   I know terrain paints have been implicated in crashing in other contexts.

[Mootilda]

Sorry for a defect in that copy. My mistake...
I've updated the post for the download, and I'm now pretty sure the lot texture also affects the terrain painting.
Please re-download it for further testing...

Not a problem.  Thanks for the update.  I'll try it again, when I get a chance.

In general, I think that these mismatched-size lots are an interesting area of study... I'm just not sure that the game will like them any better than the shrunken lots, in the long term.  I was really pleased to see that I could add a wall to the left lot edge without any problems at all - this would be cooler than shrunken lots (since the edges are buildable), if we could get it to work.

Now... is *that* possibly what's causing the crashing?  Terrain paints on the shrunk bit?   I know terrain paints have been implicated in crashing in other contexts.

No, I doubt it.  After I got the crash with niol's lot, I tried adding terrain paints to various of my shrunken lots without any problem.

Then again, I've never added terrain paints *before* shrinking - that's an completely different test.  Could someone see whether there's a correlation between terrain paints on the original lots and crashing on the shrunken lots?

[Inge]

I'll go test that now.  I have just tested a width-shrunk beach lot and that worked fine in spite of some wave machines stranded off-lot trying to animate invisibly without a location to do it in.

[Inge]

Nope - no crash even with shrunk-off groundpaint.     I feel as if I don't fit in!  Everyone else has managed to make at least *one* crashing lot

[Mootilda]

Nope - no crash even with shrunk-off groundpaint.     I feel as if I don't fit in!  Everyone else has managed to make at least *one* crashing lot

Not me.  No crashes with any of my shrunken lots.  Then again, I haven't been trying very hard.  I've probably only played a few hours in the last 2 months.