Crash on resized lots at 7PM -- any ideas?

[dizzy]

* dizzy wonders whether the crash is caused by corrupted arrays

It could be there is a very good reason you don't put walls outside the normal bounds: because that would cause the handler to corrupt memory outside of arrays (possibly). I wouldn't put it past this steaming pile of crap they call code.

[ladykat]

Um... either I'm missing something really obvious, or we've all been missing something really obvious .

If we know that the house can randomly crash the first time you move a CAS sim in - at 7pm, when hitting the day/night toggle, or on the first save - but after that it's perfectly stable... why not have the lot creator move a sim in and save, then move the sim out again? If the crash is due to some artifact of the lot shrinking process which gets fixed on the first save, wouldn't that fix whatever the problem is?

I know that moving the sim out would cause all the furnishings to be lost, but if that process would "stabilise" the house, the lot creator could then simply add furniture afterwards - and then package the "fixed" version of the house.

I said earlier that I had tried something similar.  I moved in Sim A, allowed the lot to crash, re-entered, ensured it could now toggle the Day/Night modes, and save, without crashing.  I then moved sim A out and attempted to move in Sim B, another CAS sim.  The game crashes while trying to load the lot.

After reading your post I thought that possibly an extra move might help.    After moving the first sim out I also moved the house back to the lot bin, then I placed it again, in another position.    I made yet another new CAS sim.  The game crashed while trying to enter the lot when moving the sim in, again.

Other than actually packing the lot, and reinstalling from the package, that's as close to what you suggest as it can be, but it didn't help.

kat

[Inge]

My suggestion is that when you are intending to use a lot that someone else has shrunk, you

1) Place lot.
2) With the lot still uninhabited load it and perform one Build Mode action (eg make a dent in the land, or move a door)
3) Save and exit.
4) Go back in and undo the changes if you didn't want them
5) Save and exit
6) Delete the downloaded lot from your bin, and replace with the one you edited
7) Place and use lot as normal.

[ladykat]

FYI, if anyone else with all EPs wants to be a tester monkey, click on the "MTS2 crap" link on my signature. I put the set of my first townhouses up there for testing. I'm not sure anymore if I tested those with CAS sims. I know I did with Maxis bin sims. My unreleased brownstones I tested last night with CAS sims and couldn't get to crash. I've got another set of adobes in my head that I'll try to crash once they are done and ready, most likely tonight. Then the three more sets I have in my head go through crash-testing.

I have all patches but the BV one and am cracked.

I downloaded the two lots you posted in this thread and tried them out, as I also have all the EPs, patched except BV.

I put in new CAS sims.


The 1x1 townhouse behaved fine.  I was able to save the lt and toggle the Day/Night with no problems. 
The 2X1 townhouse I was able to save, but it crashed when trying to toggle Day/Night.

My suggestion is that when you are intending to use a lot that someone else has shrunk, you

1) Place lot.
2) With the lot still uninhabited load it and perform one Build Mode action (eg make a dent in the land, or move a door)
3) Save and exit.
4) Go back in and undo the changes if you didn't want them
5) Save and exit
6) Delete the downloaded lot from your bin, and replace with the one you edited
7) Place and use lot as normal.

I tried this with the house above that crashed, but it made no difference.  It crashed again when changing to Night view.


Next, I downloaded Inge's TestShrunkTownHouse, and put a new CAS sim into that.  It was fine, no problems.  But, I had to make a change to the sim - he couldn't afford the house. I gave him more money using the familyfunds cheat.    I wondered if that might make a difference.  I made another sim and gave him more money in the same way and put him into another of the 2x1 townhouse.  This time it was fine, saved, changed views, no crashes.

So far it seems CAs sims are the ones with problems - as soon as I change them, all is well, in a new house anyway.  Second hand is still dodgy.


kat

[dizzy]

Funny story. I just saw a perfectly normal dorm crash TS2 on my machine when it went from night to day.

Seriously, why should any program ever crash except for hardware reasons? It's possible that this bug you're looking for isn't limited to shrunken houses.

[Zazazu]

The 1x1 townhouse behaved fine.  I was able to save the lt and toggle the Day/Night with no problems. 
The 2X1 townhouse I was able to save, but it crashed when trying to toggle Day/Night.

Ok. Both those lots were shrunk on the right, left, and rear sides, from Maxis default-size lots. The 1x1 was shrunk from a 3x2. The 2x1 was shrunk from a 4x3. Both have the rear wall one space from the edge. Both unfurnished, no lighting. (You didn't decorate, did you?) However...there's one big difference. The right and left walls of the 1x1 are one space from the edge. The right and left walls of the 2x1 are on the edge of the lot.

Did you place other lots directly on the edge of mine, or were they fairly free-standing?

[Mootilda]

* dizzy wonders whether the crash is caused by corrupted arrays

It could be there is a very good reason you don't put walls outside the normal bounds: because that would cause the handler to corrupt memory outside of arrays (possibly). I wouldn't put it past this steaming pile of crap they call code.

Yes, this is one possibility.  I'm willing to admit that my understanding of the various arrays is imperfect, based on Andi's original code, the Sims2Wiki, and my own testing.  So, it's possible that the LotExpander is corrupting the arrays during shrinking.  It's also possible that the arrays are fine (based on the file specifications), but the game is still unable to handle various things, such as walls, roofs, etc, on the edge of lots.

However, if either of these things were true, I would expect the corruption and crashing to get worse as people play these lots, not better.  I think that it's very encouraging that people tend to get one crash, then everything is fine.

[ladykat]

The 1x1 townhouse behaved fine.  I was able to save the lt and toggle the Day/Night with no problems. 
The 2X1 townhouse I was able to save, but it crashed when trying to toggle Day/Night.

Ok. Both those lots were shrunk on the right, left, and rear sides, from Maxis default-size lots. The 1x1 was shrunk from a 3x2. The 2x1 was shrunk from a 4x3. Both have the rear wall one space from the edge. Both unfurnished, no lighting. (You didn't decorate, did you?) However...there's one big difference. The right and left walls of the 1x1 are one space from the edge. The right and left walls of the 2x1 are on the edge of the lot.

Did you place other lots directly on the edge of mine, or were they fairly free-standing?

In each and every house I try I buy one cheap folding chair, I don't really know why, other than when I started testing I was buying stuff for my own sims in my own houses, and I'm trying to stick with a similar situation. 

The lots were free standing, no others nearby.   I could line some up and see what happens if you like. I think that space all the way round the 1x1 house could have something to do with it working ok.  I have made some which a space on one side, but the other is to the edge - they crashed.


kat

[Mootilda]

To me it looks like roofs are part of the equation. [...]  Roof code must have changed with NL, with OfB, with Seasons, and with BV (new roof types and cheats were added for each of those). I don't know about Pets and Uni.

The LotExpander needed new code for the new Pets roofs, as well.  I don't know about Uni.

[Inge]

I'm wondering if we're all getting too bogged down in this issue.  As it turns out, belatedly, the people who made crashing lots experience crashes when playing their own lots.  So if they had played them thoroughly during testing they would have known not to share those lots, or at least play them till they've passed their crashing period before packaging and sharing them.  From time to time people do share content that causes the game to crash, and ideally it should have been tested more thoroughly.

For example, most hacks and new objects are made using SimPE.  A lot of these hacks and objects cause problems in people's games.  No one is suggesting Quaxi should lose any sleep over it, or take stuff out, we just swap information with each other over how to work round it and what bits to avoid under what particular circumstances.

All I am saying is, maybe the development of the LE can move forward and this doesn't need to be a complete obstruction.  It's not entirely unthinkable to say "shrinking can only safely be used with BV upwards" if necessary.  It's better than taking out the feature or spending so much time on it that you simply run out of time and energy for the project.

[Zazazu]

The lots were free standing, no others nearby.   I could line some up and see what happens if you like. I think that space all the way round the 1x1 house could have something to do with it working ok.  I have made some which a space on one side, but the other is to the edge - they crashed.


kat

No, that's ok. The reason I asked about neighbors was just that I had the thought that it could be something with encroaching shadows from neighbors. I tested them relatively far apart as well as together, but like I said, I'm not sure now that I did CAS sims. I think it was before the CAS difference was noticed. Anyways. Will test my unreleased brownstones (all are on the edges) with CAS again and see what they do, as well as the four adobes I did last night, plus the 2xX's from that set. If I get crashes, then I can save past the crash, repackage, and retest on my other account. My problem, even when testing others' lots, is that I've still only gotten one crash on Aelflaed's blue lot.

Just thinking.

[Mootilda]

I'm wondering if we're all getting too bogged down in this issue.  [...]  All I am saying is, maybe the development of the LE can move forward and this doesn't need to be a complete obstruction.

Not a problem.  Development is continuing.  I've implemented adding and removing roads, a brand new UI for the advanced features based on everyone's feedback, changed the name to LotAdjuster, and am working on displaying the lot rotation / sun location.  plasticbox is overseeing the crash issues on shrunken lots, so that I don't have to worry about the issue until there's something concrete that I can do.

[Inge]

Good, good! 

[Emma]

Has anyone made lots that are adjusted down to a standard maxis size, such as a 3x3 reduced to a 2x2 or a 4x4 to a 3x3 etc, etc? Maybe it is because they are reduced to non-standard lot sizes that causes them to crash.

[pbox]

As it turns out, belatedly, the people who made crashing lots experience crashes when playing their own lots.  So if they had played them thoroughly during testing they would have known not to share those lots, or at least play them till they've passed their crashing period before packaging and sharing them. 

Sorry, but I have to disagree. You are making this sound like "the people", read: me in the first place, carelessly posted corrupt lots all over the place, and now it turns out that people experience crashes, what a surprise .. this is NOT how it was, and you should know it (you're reading the R+D thread).

I did playtest my lot -- I crashed before anyone else did. Since I didn't (and couldn't) know about the CAS sim issue, I wasn't able to reproduce the crash. I posted in R+D about it, asking for playtesting assistance. Nobody was able to reproduce; Mootilda was asking whether or not the shrinking code was ready for public release. This is why I uploaded the Backdoor Lane lot in the first place -- to find out whether or not shrunk lots are safe.

I checked back on R+D several times before posting it, I labeled the lot very clearly as a *test*, and a lot of things we know now we know ONLY because of the feedback that people gave. Like, for example, the CAS sim issue. Like the fact that lots only ever seem to crash once. Like the fact that it's not in-game time, but nightfall that triggers the "7PM crash". Like the fact that it's not only my lots that crash, and that BV lots do crash as well, and that your suggestion on how to "make lots safe" does not work for everyone (see the posts by ladykatsim).

How is this "bogging down development"? You wouldn't know any of this if it weren't for the effort of all the people on here who went through endless boring testing sessions and took the time to report back. Quite likely, you wouldn't even know that there *is* a problem with shrunk lots in the first place.

Like Mootilda said, development of the LotExpander can continue just fine -- this thread is specifically about the shrinking feature, which is only one small part of what you can do with LE. For people who want to share lots, however, it's a very important small part.

[Zazazu]

She just doesn't want the shiny taken away. And considering that some of those (moi included) who have put up lots for testing who normally don't do so, she has no frame of reference to know that we do playtest things beforehand.  I've just never playtested a lot with a CAS sim. Random hacked objects, sure.

[Rascal]

I think maybe Inge didn't mean that quite the way it sounded - I hope not.  Pbox your lots have been very clearly labelled as experimental and you've posted links to the R&D discussion.  That's how I found out about your first crash - your subsequent testing and failure to reproduce.  And that's why I posted about my first crash despite the fact I couldn't reproduce it either (to start with).  I don't think anyone thinks you've been irresponsible posting the lots - in fact I am very grateful to you for the time you have invested in trying to help solve this.  Thankyou!

Moontilda's work with the LE is incredible (thankyou Moontilda!) and it there is no reason to delay progress because of this issue but I don't believe we have wasted time on this.  It may be there is no solution and the game simply can't handle walls/roofs on the boundries but as you say, without this testing we wouldn't even know there was a problem.  For me, having walls on boundries is the whole point of shrinking lots and I will continue to use this feature in my own game.  I still hold out hope a solution will be found that allows lot sharing, and if a solution is found I am sure that this thread will have contributed greatly to it.

[pbox]

I think maybe Inge didn't mean that quite the way it sounded - I hope not.  

I don't think so either . That she really meant to say "there is no problem, my lots are fine, let's move on" .. Inge knows too much, technically, about the game, to arrive at such a position I believe. I just felt I had to disagree, because her post can easily be understood in a way that's just discouraging for everyone.

We probably should distinguish more clearly between two things we're trying to achieve: one is, find a reliable workaround in order to be able to share shrunk lots safely (perhaps the simple advice "do not move CAS sims into this lot" may serve as such a workaround?), and the other one is to figure out what's actually wrong; firstly to see whether the problem is fixable, and secondly to be able to tell whether the workaround is really sound.


Zazazu, good point with the frame of reference .. that's the expression I was looking for before (for a slightly different context): Inge's lot has been downloaded 19 times so far, mine was at 800 last time I checked.  Of course mine appears "more broken" with that many more testers.

About shinies taken away .. I think for everyone with their own site, and for everybody's own games, it's totally OK anyway to fiddle with slightly unreliable procedures such as shrinking lots (which may never be totally reliable -- there's probably a reason Maxis don't do edge-to-edge building). Therefore, I see no reason for the 1.2.7.8 version to be taken down (not that I could decide that -- just my opinion). It's just not the same thing for public uploads, like on mts2 or wherever .. for that we need a solid workaround at least.

[Inge]

I am glad by the time I returned to this thread it had been sorted out what I meant   I try to post neutrally - it comes from my observation training - however you'd know all about it if I was actually blaming you for something    I have on several occasions released buggy hacks due to insufficient testing, I can hardly complain if other people do similar.

Yes I was just trying to get everything into proportion and illustrate that the tool maker (Mootilda in this case) does not have to shoulder the full responsibility for anything that can ever go wrong as a result of using a tool.

Can I just clear up this confusion I am still obviously suffering from over the facts... I felt sure I read that at least *one* person who created crashing lots also went on to discover later that they crashed in his or her own game too.  So it wasn't you, Pbox?  Hasn't anyone other than Pbox and Aelflaed made similarly crashing lots?

[dizzy]

However, if either of these things were true, I would expect the corruption and crashing to get worse as people play these lots, not better.  I think that it's very encouraging that people tend to get one crash, then everything is fine.

If the problem is corrupted memory, the crashing will occur at random intervals. There is nothing any of us can do without the source code to the game to fix that. If my surmising is correct, then the only thing we can do is to tell people to add more RAM and pray real hard. 

[ladykat]

Can I just clear up this confusion I am still obviously suffering from over the facts... I felt sure I read that at least *one* person who created crashing lots also went on to discover later that they crashed in his or her own game too.  So it wasn't you, Pbox?  Hasn't anyone other than Pbox and Aelflaed made similarly crashing lots?

I haven't posted any for anyone else to try, but the lots I created have been crashing in my game.   

Strangely, today none have crashed while trying to save, and that includes at least one that did yesterday.  I have also had some house work fine today - and then not work the next tiime!


kat

[pbox]

If the problem is corrupted memory, the crashing will occur at random intervals

But it doesn't seem ro be random intervals .. the crash, or at least one of the crashes (the "7PM" one), only ever occurs with CAS sims and is triggered by a change to Night. Or do you say "random" because it doesn't occur for everyone, all the time?

[Zazazu]

Where I still can't get any of my lots to crash. *smacks them all* I just mass-created CAS sims, tested nine lots of mine (those are just the ones out of my now three sets that are on edges). Plop down the lot, move in CAS sim. Immediately go into buy/build and toggle to night. No crash. Plop down lot, move in CAS sim. Fast forward to 6:45ish and then slow-speed to 7:00. No crash.

[Doc Doofus]

Actually, I would think it was a generous gift if somebody uploaded a lot that they KNEW would crash, as long as they said it was for testing.  For debugging purposes, if you can change an intermittent problem into a reproducible one, it makes everybody's life easier.  I don't think anybody here has produced lots for mass consumption by the naive public, which would be a totally different (and bad) matter.

I feel satisfied that, at this point, I know enough for my own use.  I know that I can make a shrunken lots in my game that will work in my game.  (At least until the next EP upgrade, eww...) I know that I can download buggie shrunken lots from others and get them to work eventually through tinkering.  I'm having fun with these lots in my game as we speak. 

The wider issue, though, is whether it's possible to make these lots safe enough for wide distribution.  Doesn't sound like we're close to that point.

You know, PBox (or Mootilda?) uploaded some crash logs a while back that we haven't heard anything back about.  It seems to me that analysis of those logs by somebody with more inside knowledge might clear matters up quicker than all our diddling (which has been massively fun, by the way).  Perhaps that needs to be pursued more aggressively.

[pbox]

Can I just clear up this confusion I am still obviously suffering from over the facts... I felt sure I read that at least *one* person who created crashing lots also went on to discover later that they crashed in his or her own game too.  So it wasn't you, Pbox?  Hasn't anyone other than Pbox and Aelflaed made similarly crashing lots?

It might have been me? Like I said above, I wasn't able to repro my crash at first, because I recycled my tester sims -- we only found out about the CAS issue later. I think aelflaed has had zero crashes herself, so far, neither with her own lots nor with anyone else's. But her lots do crash for other people. Testing stuff in one's own game only goes so far .. that's part of the problem.