Could be related, so instead of starting a new thread, I decided to raise this month old thread.
coming back after a long time, I've installed all the expansions and running at 1.42. Initially it seems ok until I installed awesome mod (using autoupdater 2.. After some time, random crashes seem to occur.

Ignoring all good sense of mixing in more mods, I've downloaded Nrass Error Trap and got the following:

Provided I did not stupidly introduce this particular crash by introducing error trap, could it provide a hint on the cause of the random crashes?
Thanks.

Edit: I will update again once I gather more crash reports.

I got this game half expected that the dev finally saw the light and slap a proper rpg system into the sims engine... was I disappointed... it's not an rpg, but tries to pretend it is, and tries to be a sandbox where it also did not do right. The "start a new kingdom" and "achievements" are just tricks to hide these facts. (after you get your sims to lvl 10, which is quite easy in a normal game... these supposedly give the player additional "goals"?)

Still, there are some fun moments: e.g. creating a low health kingdom and take on a plague quest and SEE THE VILLAGERS COLLAPSE AND DIE ALL OVER THE TOWN!!! (too bad certain "essential" characters can't die, have been wanting to kill the castle servant in one game)

One thing they DID get right though : Fatal Flaws, though not in the way intended... It just dawned on me that that is a (unintended) self-parody of the Sims games : comes with many attractive traits, but ALWAYS have some Fatal Flaws... It takes Awesomemod to convert the original Sims 3 Fatal Flaws into Legendary Traits... but what we can now do with TSM in the mean time is what the manual mentioned: live with it (blah)

Thanks for the suggestion.  That is known to me, for example, for certain pond size, path finding will have a problem with finding a good place to fish... BUT it is still possible to find "sweet spots", where you can always fish if you move the sim there.  But this time, it is the first time I get an error code 12 from ponds.  It could be changes introduced in WA expansion as I had never had this problem in base game (always w awesomemod).

Posting this here as a "community service" in case somebody else having similar problems.

This thread will live as long as EA is driving the sims....

Anyway, this is an addition to the error-knowledge wrt to error code 12.  Got it but managed to somewhat avert it in this case.

No save file voodoo, just plain in game actions.

This particular cause is due to something bad on a new lot I was editting.  Mind you, I used no cheat codes NOR any non officail items (only those from base game + WA).  Somewhere down the line, the program decides that it no longer like my save file so refuses to save.

How I averted this problem: due to the fact that the last big thing I was doing was building a new house on a lot, it quite clearly got the red tag for being suspicious. Fortunately, it was unoccupied, so firstly, I made a copy of it in library (just for reference).  Then bulldozed the lot. Error 12 is gone and I can save normally again.  Just for further testing, I plonk down the lot from the library into the neighborhood again.  sure enough, I got error 12 again.  Fortunately, bulldozing the lot averts the problem.  I don't know if it is a freak bug sims make when saving or there is some architecturally unappealing about my building (honestly, my buildings are quite simple, no tricks or fancy stuff).  I started from scratch again to progressively test saving to try to find out where the error 12 will occur.  Will add on to this post when it is done (possibly take a while,most of the time waiting for save).

So if you got a suspected lot/building related code 12, moving it to library and bulldozing it will at least allow you to save the game.   not sure about occupied lots, but it could be possible to evict them then bulldoze the lot giving problem.

PS: one more proof of bad EA save, when I place the copy of the building from the library back onto a lot, some strange stuff which wasn't there appeared.  Basically, I build a part of the building right up to 1 square away from the lot edge, but I did not place anything on that 1 square buffer zone.  but when I placed the saved building down, a part of the ceiling which did not reach the edge now do, and the side of floor tile touching the edge goes all crazy resulting in a sloped floor tile.  Something could be wrong with EA's saving of certain building lots especially when you build close to the edge.  I will post when I get more info, but in the mean time, if you have problems with building lots, try keeping a little more distance from the buggy lot edge.

EDIT: Think I narrowed down the culprit: I was drying to dig a well, by using a low fence to create a 2x2 square, covered the outer surrounding floor tiles, then using the pond tool to lower the center of the 2x2 square to reveal the water body (diamond perimeter within the 2x2 square).  For some reasons, the program hates this and produces the error code 12.  It becomes ok again as soon as I flattened the pond into flat terrain again.

I did some more experiments : varying depth of the pond doesn't seem to matter.  Removing the fence also doesn't seem to matter.  What DOES matter seems to be the size and shape of the pond.  error code 12 disappears when I increase the pond size to 4x4 squares.

Verdict:  Ponds can cause error code 12
Solution:  Try changing size and shape

Then I think I should rework the design of the house such that the garden can be logically "outside" but visually inside.  I'll just take that as a challenge as opposed to planting outside then moving stuff in... well.. partially because for this particular house I'm building, there are no bare terrain squares outside... lol.

But then, no Sims 3 for me till I get by notebook repaired... wish I had some "Handiness" skill so that I can fix laptops within a couple of hours at home by myself...

Thanks for the tip.  If I understand correctly, does it mean that if I turn moveobjects on, in Live mode, I will be able to plant whatever plant "indoors"?

Sims 3 toasted my notebook.... display totally dead. sent it for repair... prob overworked the gfx card (nvidia 7000+ GO series I think)...  Notebook users out there, beware!

thanks all for the replies.  It confirmed that what I am attempting is atm impossible.  The foundation trick is good when the hole can get covered with stairs, but unfortunately, it does not work for houses without (the theme I am using will be spoilt by foundations ).  I guess I am only wait for some greenhouse expansion.  In the mean time, back to the design plans to see if a "hole or two" can be introduced discreetly.

thanks all again!

I have this problem with "internal" gardens.

I built a house with an enclosed (but no roof) area which I wanted to reserve for gardening, however, when I tried to plant, I get rejected by the message "must be outside".  Is there anything I can do to make the exposed plot be recognized as "outside"? Or is there any debug command/cheat or mod that I can use to plant stuff "inside"?  Or is it even possible to be changed via modding?

Any helpful info/advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

oh yes.. this is pretty much what I require.  Thanks for the link!

In real life, you don't move into an apartment with less than 50 dollars left not enough to even buy anything.  not enough to even live in a reasonably civilized manner (at least for the first day if your sims are forced to take up whatever crappy jobs that are available on the first day's newspaper)

I organize the list based on needs.  Another note is that my standard is "basic", not some "spartanistic minimalist".

FOOD: phone to order.  unless you have optional 4 with the fridge.  but phone is cheaper.. it is also a basic equipment for social and for calling services.
BLADDER: toilet.
ENERGY: bed
HYGEINE : bath

SOCIAL/ENVIRON/FUN are not even considered.

I really don't see how this can be unreasonable.  My request for it being included in a starting lot is more to ENSURE that they can be BOUGHT.  If the price of the lot is carefully tweaked to ensure that the basic stuff can be bought, then it's perfectly alright that they are not included in the lot.  unfortunately, most people take "starter" to just mean "under 20k".  Which is sort of like, "you can afford to move in, the rest is none of my business. Go pee in the bush (if there is even a bush)"

just crossed my mind... you know, with the loan system, it would be possible say for a family to moved into a lot on loan, then one sim takes the cash and makes his or her getaway... leaving the rest the of family with no cash AND debt.... imagine the extreme case, everybody moved out except a soon-to-expire elder....  whatever will happen to the debt after the poor sim finally takes the last journey?

Somehow, this makes me very, VERY creepy... *shivers*....

I found that I agree with a lot of what Kyna said.

The whole point is to avoid the trashy "temporary" period where the family is living in some shack.  Note that this is DIFFERENT from stuff like trailer (courtesy AmberDiceless) because I think trailer life can be a very interesting theme! It is "permanent" so  as to speak.  I'm talking about temporary lots where we don't like, don't have passion with and simply forced into it due to money woes.

Concerning loans, I'm leaning towards IJ's shrubs atm, it being a build/buy time item rather than an interaction mod that probably involves global scripts/data?  The forced payments thing I think COULD be possibly added to IJ's work too (I think. I could be wrong due to ignorance), the simplest will be to instead of charging interest, it can be made to pay actual amount and maybe somehow decreases its counter or something until it is fully paid back?  And I think somebody should definitely work on a nicer more "loany" mesh to replace the shrub.  Some loan contract or document that can be placed on table or placed in inventory or hanged on wall to remind the poor sims of their debts will be good (if we're really evil, make it lower environment attractiveness!!).

Concerning starter buildings, another possibility, (but prob not very feasilble right now) is some means for a builder to store "building add-on modules" as scripts?
So a "starter" may consist of one main building with maybe just the first two floors.  An add on, when bought at later stage may "extend" the building to third floor and modify some of the architecture maybe to include a new side building.  That way, all the buildings are still designed by the same person and have the same theme.  Another interesting dimension is to visually see significant housing improvements other than just furniture or forced the player to do his/her own DIY work which may be troublesome or "ruin" the original style.  Yeah I now, too far fetched for now... but sometimes I think, why not... even nicer if it can work with the lotadjuster to include additional land as an "upgrade".

wow.. thanks for the prompt reply.  It's not really a big problem (at least not to me, and sometimes, I don't even bother canceling the actions manually), but just thought I bring it to your attention.

Just to clarify.  The sims that wakes up has full bladder and hygiene bar.  I understand the change cloths concern, but it could be an eyesore to see entire household all trying to use the bath room : those that did not manage to go in just loiter out there waiting, refusing to do anything and those who ACTUALLY got in, just go through the lengthy (may be relative to the context) animations of starting to use the toilet, then immediately get off (actual using time~0) and then starting to go into shower and immediately get out (actual using time~0).

But your point about the morning thing sounds realistic.  come to think of it, snap dragon plants are the unrealistic culprits....  I probably want to get rid of it, at least from the bedrooms.

All in all, thanks!

Hi,

I've just realised that BUY actions (queued by sleepclock BEFORE the sims sleeps?) does not check for threshold to go to bath room?  I have sims that all cram the bathroom only to go in and then waste time doing senseless action, uses toilet/shower only to come out immediately as the bar is either full or near full.

I've just installed BV and FT expansions.  With more options to work from home, I tried out florist and succeeded with snapdragons.  This super-cheat-like object fills all personal motives save energy.  So now it is possible to wake up with 6 full motives bar and it is where the above mentioned situation with BUY gets uncovered.

Since it has never done this before (or maybe I've not noticed it before), so can I assume that BUY initiated check will check for threshold, but once BUY action is issued to sim, it will not check anymore?  Could it be possible that issued BUY-action does one more check and drops the action if it is ridiculous? (e.g. trying to go toilet when there is nothing to "give")

thanks for the (potential) attention

Interesting resources pointed out.  I;m taking a look at IJ's mortage shrubs.  Looks very usable except that it.. well... looks like a shrub .. (was hoping for something more reminding of the debt status like a mortage contract or something.  sounds kindof silly if a shrub starts deducting money) and that there's no grace period.  Maybe when I can draft out enough stuff I can try to bug IJ for an improvement?

For the more advanced loan, I agree that the control is much better.  My only complaint is that it is sim-initiated.  Unlike mortage objects which can be pre-built into the house (a house with an housing loan plan attached)

Maybe there can be a way for loans to be initiated via objects prior to sims moving in, but let another loan system takes over?? in that the loan objects just lower the initial "downpayment" of the building and "bootstraps" whatever global loaning system there are once the sims move in?

EDIT: just realised that this could be an in appropriate place to post this... but I don't know exactly where it should go, could somebody point it out for me?

The "Starter Lot".... bleh
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a bunch of related issues which has been bugging me as a person who likes to create lots.

A starter lot is defined to be a lot costing less than 20k.  However, in a lot of cases, the lot creator is really faced with tough problems.  Quite often we get "starter" lots with no furnishing whatsoever to keep the  cost down.  Not that big an issue, but still quite irritating to try to starve and sleep in a bedless albeit nice house.  imho, a "starter" lot should contain at least the bare minimum for civilized living, some items listed in order of importance.

0) phone  (curse all the "starter" lots that doesn't even leave enough $$ to buy a DAMN PHONE!!!!)
1) toilet (before somebody counter this, remember the word "civilized"??)
2) bed
3) bath/shower

optional but highly recommended:
4) kitchen stuff (fridge + at least microwave)

Now I like to create lots myself, I do know the struggle between getting the architecture up in place and putting in furniture (which could be replaced very quickly later).  At the bare minimum, I would like the bare architecture in place, even if without paint and stuff.. (prob looks hell ugly).  Even so, sometimes, frustration comes in the form of "damn, just exceeded the 20k limit" by a small margin, then proceed to hunt down the whole lot to look for things to delete.... without success.......  self... talk... curse and swear at heavens (relation to self --, relation to heaven ----)

And thus, though I agree somewhat with the 20k handout being a little unrealistic at times, sorry if I say that I just CANNOT side with the proponents of that idea given the extreme limitations that I'm having already....

Advanced Financing 101
-----------------------------------------
In real life, do we really fork out the entire sum at once to buy a house??  Except for the few minority which are the exception (don't talk to me, don't tell me who you are, just go.... go...), most people will go for housing loans.  I've seen loans being done in the past (usually involving a computer or a phone hack or an atm), some being quite advanced (add payment to bills which automatically brings in repo man without the loan hack doing anything directly).  But what I feel we need is something that starter lot creators can PUT directly into the lot instead of relying on sims.

Solution?

Future money: loans.
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I don't know if this is possible: but here's what I can throw off the top of my head right now, in the whole frustration mood over "20k" issue.
First, create a "Loan" object with a NEGATIVE cost.  The negative cost is the negation of the loan that the sim family is supposed to get.  So what does this implies?  Assuming that the game adds up the cost of all the buy/build items + lot size, the "Loan" object will effective reduce the total price of the lot by its stated amount...   E,g, say a house cost 25k, add a 5k loan object (adds -5k to total cost), this will bring down the cost of the house to 20k!!   So a starter family with 20k can still afford the house, where basic amenities are assured with an appropriate loan amount.  Given that, how about loan payment?

Loan repayment:
-----------------------------------------
Since the loan object has negative cost, I assume that it will actually REDUCE the household money if sold in buy mode.  However, this can only be true if the loan value is not deprecated.  assuming that Sims2 deprecation uses multiplication instead of fixed subtraction, we would not want the actual debt to reduce on its own!!! (Although it's probably everybody's dream).  What this still doesn't solve, at least without more advanced handling, is the payment period/frequency problem.

For simplicity, let each loan scheme, characterized by the
1. total loan amount,
2. the interest,
3. the number of payments,
4. the delay to first payment
5. the frequency of subsequent payment,
6. penalty to missed payment

Basically, a person takes out a loan amount of X has to pay back total outstanding amount Y = (X + interest rate * X)
Each payment amount P = (outstanding loan amount Y / number of payments left)
First payment starts after a delay (to give sims time to get a job and earn some money) e.g. 3 days to 1 week, and continue at a regular interval.
Should a payment be missed, a fine amount is added into the outstanding total (thus increasing amount of future payments).

After working out the math, how do we actually enforce payment?  I think the loan idea I say in a mod is quite good in that it rides on the bills system.  If it is possible, simply issue each payment as a separate bill, and then we don't even have to handle missed payments.  The inbuilt bills+repo-man will take care of that.

The Ideal Outcome
-----------------------------------------
Sims family can now buy houses beyond their initial budget, balanced by a harder life in the future serving the loan (did anybody notice how familiar sims 2 has become as reflections of our own lives...).  So those people who think 20k is too much can opt to have initial amount of money lowered with no need to build cheap ugly temporary houses.  Just open the non-inhabited lot you want to buy, plonk down one/ few appropriate loan objects such that the cost of the lot (should be more aptly named the down payment now) will be within the budget of the family in question.  This can also make a lot of houses which misses the "starter" limit of 20k by a hair margin to make it to the category without compromising basic amenities.

The Real Situation?
-----------------------------------------
How possible is this within the current system?

Back to the coffee issue (sorry if I'm breaking any moods here)

I haven't used caffeinate since OFB (I know, not possible in real life, but in real life, I don't have FWS alarm clock to manage my energy bars).  I remembered the reason for me going off it is that I noticed that coffee seems to have a sort of addiction factor.  It is most effective when a sim who had not drink coffee for a long time drinks it, but the energy gained per subsequent cup gets less and less and less.  until caffeinate prob wastes more energy than it takes in (since bathroom activity has to be included).

Maybe somebody could affirm, dispute this?

All in all, I think it is still good for the emergency pump up, but it cannot be sustained (yeah, it would have made visits to com lots potentially never-ending.... prob some way to sleep in com lot will be better?)

regards