More Awesome Than You!

Poverty sucks. You start out on your ass, homeless and trying to stay alive and out of the cold. No one to help you out with anything. Then a dead-end job and a horde of screaming children in a tiny, condemned shack--never enough space or money for beds or birth control or food and toys for the kids and nothing left for education, so you learn to do without and manage the chaos. You know money doesn't grow on trees. Can your family prosper? The Poverty Challenge: Ghetto Superstar!

Instructions:
This challenge is competitive. Try to get the highest score.

• STEP ONE: Download and install the 2x1 mini lot from MTS2. It is confirmed to be safe as any other sized lot. I asked Pes. :p

               Get them here: http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=195469
               Or here: http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=251798

• STEP TWO: Create a CAS Sim to be the founder of your impoverished family.
• STEP THREE: Move the sim onto the 2x1 mini lot. Spend all of your money on terrain smoothing/groundcovers/tile method until you only have 100 simoleans left. Nightlife+ users can use the FamilyFunds cheat to reduce the net worth from the get-go.
• STEP FOUR: Check- are you down to 100 smackers? Okay. The challenge begins here: survive and thrive as best you can. The challenge ends when the youngest child of your first (CAS) sim becomes a teen.

POINT SYSTEM:
  +1 for every thousand simoleans of the family net worth
  +4 points for each child born
  +10 points for each sim that maxes out all skills
   -4 for accidental deaths (by fire, disease, lightning, etc.)
   -1 for each accidental promotion, including chance card promotion
   -4 points for each child that doesn't reach the age of teen—you lose those child points from raising them if they die or move out.
   -20 for each child taken by the social worker
   -1 for each aspiration failure (when the shrink comes)
  +1 for trashed aesthetics, arbitrarily awarded by me.

RULES:

• ONE CRAPPY JOB. Only one sim may be employed at any time. Only entry level jobs.
• NO MOVING IN SIMS.
• NO REWARD OBJECTS
• NO BOOKCASE. Sims may own a single (non-hacked) book for use by the entire family.
• ONLY ONE SKILLING ITEM PER SKILL. For example, with the creativity skill, this means you may have either one easel OR one instrument OR one computer OR one toddler toy, but never all four. For the cooking skill, you would have to choose between the book, the kid's oven or the TV, etc.
• All children must pick the money aspiration, because they had to grow up without. Grandkids may choose anything.
• No private school unless you "shoot-the-moon." See below for details.
• Sims must have at least 4 scholarships to go to college. Once the sim moves out, they may never return.
• NO BORROWING. Items may not be deleted or returned to the catalog at the same price you bought them- they must depreciate first and lose value.
• NO ADOPTION
• NO DIGGING OR SANDCOMBING
• NO SNAPDRAGON.
• SIMS MUST STAY HUMAN. To be human is to suffer and know death. Vampirism/plantsimism/whatever must be cured immediately.
• Servos are allowed. They do not count as children, since they are made, not born.
• Sims may not purchase real estate, or order/sell deeds with OFB.
• Sims may not run or own a business with OFB. So no home businesses.
• Challenge sims may not be hired as employees by another business. They may not visit owned business lots, purchase or be sold anything by another business.
• Challenge families (for those with Seasons) must be played using ALL FOUR SEASONS. You may arrange the seasons in any order, and you may start in any season, but you MUST have a Winter, Spring, Summer, and Fall.
• The challenge stays on the challenge lot- if a sim moves out, they are no longer considered part of the challenge. This means a sim may not receive an inheritance, or any money or inventory items from off-lot sims. If a sim does receive an inheritance from an off-lot sim, you must get rid of the money. You may not have other playables give gifts to your sims with the "give gift" interaction, or sell them cheap or depreciated items.
  
• NO INHERITANCE from sims that don't live on the lot. If you get an inheritance, you have to get rid of the money.
• There is no limit to the number of sims you may have on the lot.

RULES FOR COMMUNITY LOTS:
   No skilling on community lots. It's cheaty.
   No way to gain energy- no coffee/cocoa/etc
   No ways to earn money on community lots- no bands, bartending, gambling, pool, etc
   No fishing on community lots, and no gardening
   No objects you normally couldn't add to community lots.
   No activities that would not be possible on community lots without hacks- like getting pregnant.
   
I recommend these poverty challenge lots as being legal for the challenge:

• http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=125890
• NEW! SHINY! NO EP! http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=240257

HEADMASTER SHOOT-THE-MOON SCENARIO:
  +2 points for every child that goes to private school, but ONLY IF:
   all children go to private school
   no child goes to public school for more than one day (or more than once)
   the headmaster always says yes the first time
   all children/teens STAY in private school
   all teenagers must have and keep an A grade.
If you FAIL to shoot the moon:
  -3 points for every kid in private school
  -5 if you fail the headmaster scenario

BONUS MINI CHALLENGES:
  +5 points for never visiting a community lot, EVER
  +5 points for playing the entire game without a phone
  +5 for never eating leftovers or storing food in the inventory
  +15 points for never selling date rewards
  +10 points if the sim never gets a job
  +15 for never selling/deleting anything, ever. If you end up with redundant skilling items, you are screwed, sorry.
  +20 for never selling garden produce

ARCHITECTURE:
+ 5 points if the house has only one level (floor).
+ 10 more points if the house has ONLY ONE ROOM
+ 30 more points if the one room is so big, it has NO WALLS AND NO TOILET (a la EMAIL: -80 points if a sim has an accident!)

PREGNANT TEEN (+15 points)
Use the insiminator or other hack to start the challenge with a pregnant teen sim- but no points for the unborn child. You may not use any other functions of the inteenimator for this challenge--the initial pregnancy is the only exception. Teens may not date/flirt with adults, teens may not "woohoo"/"try for baby", teens may not work adult jobs, and teens must go to school. Required flavor paks: Back 2 school, no adult teens. As with the base game, pregnant sims may not visit community lots once they start showing.

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ABOUT HACKS AND CUSTOM CONTENT
Hacks and custom content are allowed, but not if they are against the spirit of the challenge.

Sims may not use/buy items cheaper than the cheapest Maxis/EA item of the same type/function. Custom careers may not pay more than 350/day or have sims work more than 5 days/week (so they can't give more money than the best Maxis career at the same level)

Hacks that streamline gameplay, like JM's macrotastics, are okay. Hacks that make aspects of the game easier or allow the sims do stuff you can't make them do (like spongebathing at the sink without hygiene failure) are not. Hacks to make the game HARDER are fine. If you are uncertain, assume the answer is NO.

Moving out must conform to the rules for move-outs in an unmodified game. Teens and younger may move out with an adult, but not alone. Remember, it's -4 points for moving out a sim younger than teen.[/list]

Special Preg 4 All Rules Subset: Only sims with the same gender as the founder are allowed to breed. Sims may only "try for baby" with ONE sex (not both).

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This mini-challenge under consideration.

SPACE SAVER:
Sim houses may only have ONE ROOM, on one level/floor. Objects may never be sold back to the catalog, ever, for any reason. Sims may not keep anything in inventory.

If you are going for the no dating rewards money bonus, dating rewards may be placed in the sim's inventory ONLY at the END of the challenge (along with uneaten fish outside the fridge), so they won't be included in the family net worth. If you end up with duplicate skilling items from dating, you will fail the challenge.

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Changes, Feb 6th, 2008
Challenge now requires the 2x1 lot from MTS2.
-1 point for aspiration failure.
Fishing is limited to stock-fridge only.
-10 points for each kid taken by the social worker.
Showers on community lots are now okay.
No skilling exception for the toddler toys.
Points awarded for sims gaining skills.
Clarification of the skilling object rule.
Clarified the teen move out/ child points rule- child points lost if they don't make it to teen.
Clarified community lot rules.
Clarified the rule for servos.
Clarified the no businesses rule.
New, shiny "no borrowing stuff" rule- items must depreciate first.
Added guidelines for custom content.
Added architecture mini bonus challenge.
New rules regarding school and university.
Added a bunch of extra point bonuses, for maxing skills, not visiting community lots, not selling date rewards, unemployment, no telephone, no leftovers.
Added the "headmaster shoot-the-moon" rule subset for private school.
University allowed if sim has at least 4 scholarships.
Deleted all male mini challenge, as it'll never happen and just makes things crazy.

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I'm not limiting the challenge to pre-approved community lots for now, but they will be provided. I'll probably require them if I ever put the challenge up on the sims2community site.

A link to my original poverty challenge, off of which this one is based:
http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=9383

There's a list of other "approved" lots in my second post of the thread.

Okay guys and guyettes, since this is a draft challenge, I could use feedback on a lot of different things--and maybe a few willing playtesters.  ;)

QUESTIONS:

1) Aspiration: should 1st gen children all have the money aspiration (because they have to grow up without), or a random aspiration determined by rolling a die (thus compatible with a legacy challenge)?

2) Gardening. Sims can make an awful lot of money from the garden. On the other hand, it gives the sims something to do while they are unemployed. So I'm thinking of allowing it, but limiting the number of garden plots to something between, say, 5 and 10, and allowing no more than 2 trees. Too much? Too little? Should gardening products be stock only, and never sold? Or what if I just give a bonus for never selling the produce, and rely on space considerations limiting the number of garden plots?

3) Limiting the challenge to pre-approved, uploaded lots. I've been doing this with the poverty challenge on  which Ghetto Superstar is based, so a number of "pre-approved" lots are already available (except for the shower thing). I did this because it helped to keep the challenge under control, limit the actions that sims were able to do on community lots and try to keep things fair for people with different expansion packs. It also makes the challenge kind of fun in that players were all going to the same places in their stories. For the sake of simplicity, should I keep this rule, or just issue guidelines for community lots?

4) Headmaster scenario- worth keeping?
5) How easy is it to get 4 scholarships following these rules?
6) Does the balance of the bonus points seem fair, and, um, balanced?
7) Should I allow vacations?
8) What about only allowing child-age sims to dig?
9) banning ponds altogether
10)What about shortening the challenge so it ends with the death of the first sim, instead of the aging of the youngest child?

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When this challenge is in its final form, I plan on posting it to the sims 2 community forums, with my previous challenge. You can see the other challenge here: http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=9383

I'd remove the toddler toy exception, and in no way, shape, or form allow mood boosters or smart milk. People can make toddlers that nearly max out skills. Stock-only might be decent, but it's fairly easy to get ALL your food from the land, especially with a pond, thus allowing for no need to refill a fridge ever. I'd ban computers - no promotions, maybe, but you can get a higher up job form the computer without noticing.

I wouldn't require it, for the cc-phobic (freaks). I use 1x2's and 1x1's all the time. The only issue is that if you have carpool and schoolbus coming at the same time, whichever arrives first needs to be filled and sent off ASAP as the other can't appear until it's gone. Also, 2x2's came with one of the EP's. Pets, I think.

Ban 'em all. There isn't one reward option that doesn't give a bonus that could be turned into cash, except maybe the stupid sunglasses. And who wants to use those?

I say let them do a die-toss or all money. Having the money aspiration for a teen doesn't make that much of a difference, even if they have all "buy X" wants. You can still use the buy/sell back method, or fulfill buy wants that more than one sim has for efficiency.

Yup. And, if it's not already up there, no selling craftables from buy mode or selling from the bench. Heck, I'd say no produce or fishing as more filling food means less paying for delivery.

It would make mechanical nigh impossible to earn to eliminate the bookcase. Plus, you have to have the money to buy the bookcase first, then get a book out and sell it back. So you still have the restriction of not being able to get those book-skills right away.

Yes. Must ban. If you give points for having kids, you have to restrict the methods of doing so. Adoption would be a huge loophole. And since I'm lazy...ban computers, too.

Meh. You already "pay" for community lot showers by losing lot time and all the load.

Provide examples, but give guidelines. Many people who aren't even anti-cc are anti-downloaded lots. Me included. I have all of two lots in my game that I didn't make, and that's only because I've been building up three 'hoods at once and I wasn't in the mood to build another restaurant or dorm.

Please no. No showers is just annoying.

Wasn't there a loophole with this? I seem to recall from the Poverty Challenge that with some carreers, getting "accidentially" promoted was worth more than 1.000§ .. if this is so, maybe you should make the penalty -2 points instead?

I have difficulties with the wording of this. Do you mean "never more than one of THEM"? "Never more than one of each" implies that 1+1+1 would be ok.

Regarding custom content, how do you feel about super-cheap custom objects (like extra-comfy beds for 50§) ... don't they provide a rather large inital advantage? Maybe a rule like "all CC objects must be at least as expensive as the cheapest Maxis object with the same functionality" would help in that case?

Also, how about a "no borrowing stuff" rule? (No buying a toilet, using and reselling it) I played the Poverty Challenge with that and it adds *greatly* to the realism of the whole thing.

You want the challenge to be playable by all users (regardless of EPs), right? I'd add a "For Seasons users" before this rule then -- right now it sounds as if you could *only* play the challenge if you have Seasons.

Honestly, I think this is unnecessary .. I have no abduction reladed hacks and had *one* abduction so far. I play the game since early 2005. I think this rule says "please do cheat" in big bold letters.

The 2x1 lot would be great for this -- I use it quite a bit and never had any issues. (You do mean the one that's 2 tiles wide (where wide = the direction parallel to the street), yes? 1 tile wide lots can be problematic (but I guess you knew that))

Re. Zazazu's concerns (CC-phobics): the empty Nx1 lots on the lot expander thread are absolutely safe. I'd see an educational benefit in getting people to understand that mts2 is not the exchange =).


I say ban all -- it's simpler.

I vote yes, and same for harvesting. Otherwise, all sims will fish all day which turns the whole thing into a rather boring exercise. (I embrace the one-easel-only rule for the same reason)

Stock only I'd say. And then I don't think you need to limit the number of garden plots: 100 plots would only lead to a lot of wasted space and an overflowing fridge .. I've had families survive on 12 or so plots just fine, so there's a natural limit I think.
I would like to be able to garden, in any case -- like you say, it gives the sims something to do, and it looks pretty and very appropriate for this.

Not too limiting: I have an entire subhood of illiterate sims. One book only sounds good as well.

Ban it. Adopting = moving in, which isn't allowed, period.

Not really necessary (unless perhaps you ban electricity) .. the only real big advantage I see is being able to enter a higher job level, which isn't allowed anyway. And you can write novels, which is essentially the same as painting (only with higher initial costs), and that is allowed. Why would you want to ban them? Am I forgetting something?

Not too hard, no -- I played the first installment of the Poverty Challenge without showers on comm lots (because I didn't know they were available there) and my sim hasn't died, so ..
But I don't really have a strong opinion on this -- for some comm lots (public baths for example) it's very realistic to have showers, so this is not a vote for banning then.

Nooooo! I want to build my own :'( .. and I won't have the time to build any beforehand and get them approved if you start the challenge any sooner than say end of september. On the other hand, "It also makes the challenge kind of fun in that players were all going to the same places in their stories" -- yes I can see that =) and yes I can imagine it's tedious to keep watch over everyone's custom comm lots to make sure they're in line with the rules. So, I guess the advantages are more important than a few people whining about it.


Seconded.

ETA: Oh, and .. what about Servos? Are they allowed? I never had one, but they're more or less like additional sims aren't they? So if your starter sim never has children but builds servos instead, the challenge would go on forever? (This is pure guesswork, I've no idea how they work / if they can build more servos, but just in case ..)


I wish I could playtest this, but .. gotta get work done.

I finally got in-yea!

I've had the day off and my husband has taken my stepson and his wife, who are visiting from St. Louis, to visit more family in NC.
So, I played this challange all day. ;D

Usually I cheat a lot-I like to build so, I start out with several motherlode cheats just to get my lot the way I want it. But I really want to try this, so I restrained myself, which was not easy. Also, I didn't read the rules thoroughly enough, and started out with too many advantages, so my first sim had to be abandoned.

I considered just removing the skills and relationships she had acquired and restarting with her.
Mainly because I had named her Banoobies Brokeass and it made me laugh every time I saw it pop up. But, I figured a clean slate would be best, so I left her lot and started anew.

On sim day two of my 2nd try, I accidentally killed my test subject, Rayenella Rednecke-I posted my results at the exchangehttp://thesims2.ea.com/exchange/story_detail.php?asset_id=179690 (http://thesims2.ea.com/exchange/story_detail.php?asset_id=179690)(I am too lazy to set up a site or blog, so, yeah, the exchange).

I've started again with a new CAS sim,Plum Busted, with all specs as they should be this time. It was still tough going, but much better. She's been fired three times for poor performance, but since I realized I could buy a phone(go me), I was able to send her to approved community lots and get her mood up enough to find replacement jobs each time.

I have a question, though. I stupidly started in PlasticBox's Baskerville 'hood, which has a totally clean template-leaving me with no townies. I had played the neighborhood with another family and sent a teen off to uni, so I have Dormies. And I attached Bluewater just to get townies, but for some reason, all my townies are young adult and so are my NPC's. The mailmen, delivery people, store clerks.

I have managed to get Plum into a photo booth and she's pregnant by Malcolm Landgrabbe (the younger-I don't remember his roman numerals)
Would I be disqualifying myself if I let her marry him?
I'm halfway through Fall and I'd like to get a roof over her head before winter hits.

Nevermind: I guess that means no marriage.  :P Dang this is hard!

OK, curiousity got the better of me and I gave this a try on the weekend .. did I say "get work done"? *ahem*

I'm at the end of week 2 by now, my founder has had one child so far that will turn into a toddler soon. Her current posessions are a double bed, toilet, bathtub, sink, fridge, and the coffee table and phone that she bought at the beginning. It's the first or second day of Fall though, so I'm not sure what will happen once it gets cold .. she has about 200§ at the moment, not nearly enough to build even a tiny shack (I'll probably have to sort-of-cheat and use foundation walls to build one). Right now they still live on the lawn, their only weather protection is a roof supported by 2 pieces of wall.

I was lucky in two respects: the first job offered on day 1 was Security Guard (the best-paying level 1 job that's safe from promotion), and the first born child is a girl.

The biggest problems so far were the heat, and the fact that sims can't sleep in the same room (i.e. outside) with a baby on the floor that's awake  :P

I left all my hacks installed but I think overall my game is harder, not easier, than the default. Namely:

* Harder relationships (AlexxSomethingorother @ mts2) and the romancemod: it took until Saturday of week 1 for my poor founder to be able to WooHoo someone (and that was a guy she'd met on the first or second day)

* Hide Try For Baby + sound off

* Community Time Project: she really only has 24 hours in the day

* A temperature fix by JMP (not sure what it's called): my founder almost died of heatstroke a couple of times (note to self: buying a bathtub in the middle of summer is a very, very stupid idea), without this I guess she would have exploded in a BFBVFS

* Sleep On Floor: makes it more comfortable to do so (but this only affects teens and up, also the bed was the first thing she bought so the advantage was minimal)

* I'm not sure if it is normally possible to stick community lot hot dogs into your inventory or if it only worked because of a hack I have .. that's what my sim did, in any case, in order to put off the purchase of a fridge (plus lots of dates and outings to keep her needs up).

I've a lot more hacks than that, but off the top of my head I think these are the ones that made a difference so far. I'm running Seasons p2, so I do have crybabies.

Also, I did not borrow (buy-use-sell) anything.

For comm lots I used the public bath and playground from Baskerville (mts2) -- not officially approved but I think they should be compliant .. except perhaps that the bath has showers, which my sim did use.


Regarding promotions: only 4 out of 15 maxis carreers are safe from promotion on level one, which in my eyes makes things a little bit dull? (namely adventurer, athlethic, security (1 body point each), and business (1 charisma)). For sloppy sims, science and medicine might work as well since they require cleaning points .. still, that's only 6 carreers out of 15, not a lot of variety.  Perhaps the entry-level-jobs-only rule could be extended to second or third level? That way, sims could take on a lot more different jobs without having to worry about getting promoted accidentially.

For the founder, we can choose whatever aspiration we want, right? Mine is Pleasure for the record (Neat 0, Outgoing 10, Active 0, Playful 10, Nice 5).

I'll play some more tonight, will let you know how it goes!


Also,

That is odd -- the game *should* autogenerate townies for you if you start with an empty hood. Not sure what's up with the YAs you're getting as I don't have Uni, but I playtested Baskerville a few times and got more than enough townies ..  are you sure you don't have notownieregen and/or a custom template installed?

You're exactly right & thank you. The only time I played B-ville previous to this challenge, I was playing Uni.
That combined with notownieregen would explain it, wouldn't it?

Baskerville is so suited to this challenge, that rather than start over, I fixed  my abundance of YA's by exiting the challenge lot and aging several townies to adult. I don't feel that in this case it's cheating, since normally I would have gotten adult townies.


I agree. I've been accidentally promoted due to chance cards two times now. Once on my second startover and again with my current try. Neither sim had any skills and their motives were  really low. I don't think I have any hacks that give easier promotions.


I've also been using the showers on the approved lots. If it's ultimately decided that that's cheating, I'll take the penalty. It's worth it.

I'm extremely worried about winter, though, with no marriage allowed, at her current income, It's going to take several weeks to get her under some shelter.

I just realized: you HAVE to start this challenge with a female. Is that intentional?

I'm trying this for a break from my Alphabet Challenge and it is certainly NOT easy! I've had several exits without saving due to disasters. I've got seasons and you definitely want to begin with Spring leading into Summer, Autumn, Winter. The game for some reason defaults to Autumn as the first season and I can't see how you'd possibly get enough house built in time. I'm using the Pleasentview 'hood as that has been unplayed to date and still has the townies from the original install. I made Brittany Ghetto, a CAS romance sim, and dumped her in a 3x1 lot. She hooked up with Daniel Pleasant on day 1. She was also very lucky with jobs, science on day 1, military day 2 with a quick shuffle to law enforcement that evening. I saved the game at the point she was pregnant by Daniel, about halfway through her third trimester.
So far:

• In this first run my poor little sim froze solid while the social worker arrived to pick up a well-chilled toddler so I swapped the seasons round to begin with Spring.
• In the second run my sim produced twins thanks to Daniel Pleasant. Damn sadorandomness! She simply couldn't cope as she couldn't afford decent furniture to replenish needs. I exited just as grimmie was about to put in an appearance.
• On the third run I cocked up by having her try for baby a day too soon as I'm working on the principle that you get her into permanent maternity leave as soon as possible. As with the twins scenario I couldn't keep up with the needs.
• The fourth attempt is ongoing and she has a toddler (female) with Daniel and has since got her claws into Goopy and is attempting pregnancy no2 with 2 days remaining of maternity leave and well-timed day off in hand. It was almost disaster with a direct lightning strike on the fridge but fortunately the rain put it out.

So far so good. I've still got my hacks in place but I don't think I have any that make things much easier, except the no friends for promotion which, of course, won't affect my sim who's lacking the magic body point to go up. I also don't use macrotastics as I prefer a much more hands-on approach to playing.
I'm assuming that fishing would make it too easy so I've not got a pond but like the idea of a limited garden. Perhaps max 6 plots and no greenhouse. I'm not sure how much ponds cost to build, if it's expensive then it might be a fair addition, but not an initial build item.  I'm also avoiding smart milk but will go with one of each toddler toy. Books are cheap, electronics are expensive so I'd ban computers/TVs and stick with the one book option. I'd allow a table top radio, but not a stereo.

Computers are not expensive. Clearly, if a welfare whale like Kewian can afford a computer, anyone can afford a computer.

Playtested some more; my founder sim is an elder by now. I'm finding this a great improvement over the Poverty Challenge, mainly because of the one easel limit and no moving in rule (my Poverty Challenge was basicallly a painting factory .. I never finished it because it got too boring).

Luckily the first fall was very mild and my sims could put off building a house until winter .. they managed to afford a windowless 4x5 shack by that time, not pretty but I couldn't find any way to warm up the toddler and baby except putting them inside (I too had to exit w/o saving due to frozen kids before that). Meanwhile they have an actual small house -- very empty inside (they still sleep in shifts and are on a gelatin diet), but it has a proper livingroom, bathroom and bedroom and they can finally lock the visitors out from bothering the kids.

Raising the kids only worked the brute force way: lock them into a room and let them scream. Otherwise my founder might very well have died from lack of sleep.

5 garden plots have been enough for my family so far (currently 5 sims: one elder, two teens, a child and a toddler -- I actually wanted her to have 5 kids but messed up the timing a bit); I guess sims eat more the older they get, but now that there's teens in the house who can babysit, someone can always go fishing.

Net family worth is currently 7.166§, accumulated from one security guard job (or rather an endless maternity leave), salvaging the trash, selling paintings, and a lemonade stand. They are completely obsessed with that lemonade stand, everyone's harbouring a fear that someone might smash it and they have wants to sell lemonade every day .. (btw I discovered that adults can use it as well! I always thought it's only for children .. live and learn =).

I guess one of the most important things in this challenge will be to pop out kid 1 as soon as you can and hope for a girl .. if the last child is born just before the founder turns elder, the first one will be able to produce a few grandkids by the time the last one hits teen. I don't think I'll manage that =( my firstborn simply arrived too late.

I have almost finished this. My CAS sim has had 5 children and her eldest child has gone on to produce 2 grandchildren. The youngest will automatically age to a teen next evening. The lot value is currently 9,624 (looking in buy/build mode) and the family have 2,118 cash to their name.

1) Part of the point of this challenge is to have a lot of sims on a squinchy lot. Should I require downloading the tiny 2x2 or 2x1 lots from MTS2? That way, everyone would have the same, super-squinchy lot, no matter what EP they are playing with. Has anyone experienced any game play issues with those?

I played on the smallest available 3x1 lot where there was plenty space for the final house and a pond. Please don't limit it to pre-approved downloaded lots.

2) Toddler toy exception? Should it be left in, or eliminated? Should toddler toys count towards the limit for skilling objects (so that, for example, you can't have both an easel and a xylophone toy at the same time)?

I'm actually with the idea of counting them in with other skilling objects, I got by with one Mr Wabbit for increasing charisma. I also had a chess table for logic and easel for creativity.

3) Reward Objects: stick with categorically banning everything, or only these: counterfeit machine, elixer, candy machine, cow plant, money tree, rejuvenator, all modd boosters, and smart milk?

Definitely ban all reward objects. Alternatively you could selectively make them available based perhaps upon sims maxing out individual skills. I had one artist who maxed out creativity, nobody else had more than 5-6 points in any skill though admittedly I wasn't trying that hard.

4) Aspiration: should 1st gen children all have the money aspiration (because they have to grow up without), or a random aspiration determined by rolling a die (thus compatible with a legacy challenge)?

No, I didn't play that and went with the sadorandomness of rolling a di to determine aspiration. Of the teens so far I got 2 family, 1 romance and 1 pleasure.

5) Fishing- stock fridge only?

Definitely yes, once you get a few family members fishing you never need to order groceries again. Interestingly I came across something with this and I'm not sure if it's a bug... I got the wornable fridge and it's stock level is zero but it's happily continuing to produce bottles of milk for the babies/toddlers. Is this a bug? Or by design? I always thought milk cost money too. I've been cooking all the fish on the cheapest barbecue so haven't been doing any serve interactions with the fridge.

6) Gardening. Sims can make an awful lot of money from the garden. On the other hand, it gives the sims something to do while they are unemployed. So I'm thinking of allowing it, but limiting the number of garden plots to something between, say, 5 and 10, and allowing no more than 2 trees. Too much? Too little? Should gardening products be stock only, and never sold?

I didn't bother with a garden, but based upon previous gardening experience I think no greenhouses should be a rule and a limit of 8 plots would seem reasonable. Stock only.

7) No bookcase (or books), period? Impoverished sims don't have access to resources the rest of us take for granted. Is that too limiting? Or would it simply make the game play that much more interesting and difficult?

One book worked just fine. I'm happy as long as teens have a couple of points cooking so as to limit the incendiary effects of their first cooking attempt.

8 ) Banning adoption. Yes or No? Is this rule worth having, or is it just making the challenge rules that much more complicated?

Definitely ban it. I'm not sure if it's what you intended, but in my view the main intention of this challenge is to raise the largest, happiest family possible despite having no resources to begin with. Adoption would make it far too easy and would come too late, given the requisite 3,000 simolean family funds. The fact the breadwinning sim is pregnant about half her adult life makes the challenge much harder and fits in with the dirt poor theme.

9) What do you think of banning computers?

Definitely. Books cost pence (cents) from charity bookshops/boot sales whereas computers cost pounds (dollars) so we are looking at a factor of a 100 or even more in price.

10) No community lot showers? Should it be allowed after all, especially since we are allowed to add showers to community lots with just the base game? Does it make the challenge too hard? This partially ties in with my last question.

I never bother going to the community lot. My sims are happy to accost passing strangers and bring friends back from work/school. A shower was one of my first major purchases as I figured my sim could always wash after her episodes of incontinence, but the hassle of getting to/from a community lot probably balances out the benefit of having a shower there.

11) Limiting the challenge to pre-approved, uploaded lots. I've been doing this with the poverty challenge on  which Ghetto Superstar is based, so a number of "pre-approved" lots are already available (except for the shower thing). I did this because it helped to keep the challenge under control, limit the actions that sims were able to do on community lots and try to keep things fair for people with different expansion packs. It also makes the challenge kind of fun in that players were all going to the same places in their stories. For the sake of simplicity, should I keep this rule, or just issue guidelines for community lots?

I'd say no, but then again I don't bother with community lots so it doesn't affect my gameplay.

Other comments
I've got a major problem with the scoring, specifically the +4 points for each child (points awarded on aging to teen) as this means there is absolutely no point in going onto have grandchildren as they will never reach teenager before the youngest 1st gen does. I only realised this once I had reread the rules. It would make sense to automatically score +4 points on the birth of grandchildren, or for each one at the close of the challenge.

It might be worth scoring +1 for growing up well and say -2 for growing up badly.

My previous comment about season order definitely holds - start with Spring and go through them in normal order otherwise you're unlilkely to have a roof over their heads come winter.

All in all this was a fun little challenge and a nice filler in for a break from Alphabet Legacy. Thanks.

EDIT: I've stuck it up on the exachange. http://thesims2.ea.com/exchange/story_detail.php?asset_id=180272 (http://thesims2.ea.com/exchange/story_detail.php?asset_id=180272)

Um, seconded. Guess I should re-read rules more often =)

Why exactly is it that you only want to award the points when they age to teen? If kids can't move out before that, it's already ensured that they stay on the lot until then .. or am I missing something?

This implies that there will be births.  Good so far.


OK, but why bother with skilling then?  Refuse promotions - how?  If they skill and make friends, they get promoted.  Is this OK?


You start with one CAS sim.  You can only join family by being born in.  You can't move in anyone?  Not even a spouse?  In that case, unless you specify that your founder must be a female Sim, you are not going to get spawn without cheating.  Are they allowed to move in/marry another sim to get spawn (provided they aren't employed, don't bring in money, etc.)?

Other comments:

Banning Adoption:  not sure why this would be necessary.  Do kids come with money?  If it's just for realism (i.e. normally poverty stricken people aren't allowed to adopt, can't afford it, etc.) then OK.

Banning promotion:  Not sure how to restrict this unless you avoid skilling at all.  In that case, forget any skilling objects, etc. except the book (may as well let the blighters learn to cook so they don't burn down the place).

Ban computer:  At the start, yes.  They should not start with a computer.  However, if you're looking to have a challenge in which the Sim gets out of poverty (original rules give points for each 1000 simoleans) they may be able to afford one as they go along.  In that case, they might also be able to afford skilling objects, gain skills, and get promotions.

There is an inherent contradiction in this draft of the challenge - not allowed to get promotions, but allowed to have skilling objects.  Not allowed to act rich, but allowed to earn money (points gained for simoleans).  If no points for any sort of "success" of your founder (i.e. getting richer, getting out of poverty, getting promoted, etc.) what is the point of the challenge?

My suggestions: 
1. Start with a house with 2 bedrooms, kitchen, bathroom, and living/dining combination.  Basic fixtures in bath.  1 counter, cheapest fridge and a cheap barbecue in the back yard (no stove, microwave, toaster oven, etc.)

2. They can have a phone, and a book.  No bed, no chairs, no tables, no other skill building items, nothing.

3. Only move in is for marriage (not necessary if your founder is female - she can get spawn without marriage.  Male sims would need a spouse to ensure spawn is part of the family).  No move outs, not even teens (unless they run away).  I think if you rely on alien abduction without some cheat for a male CAS, a level of high improbability of completing the challenge is introduced, especially if skill items (like telescope) are disallowed (and if they're poor, they should be disallowed).

4. Only one sim employed at a time, founder must start with 0 skills and only 100 simoleans.

5. Allow promotions and skilling normally (if they have no skill objects, apart from a book, this could take a long time, but even poor people who gain skills and make friends can get promoted, work out of poverty, etc.)

6. They have to earn and/or buy everything.  This means they can buy baby toys, or anything they like, as long as they can afford it.  This will be difficult since no woohoo will be possible until they can afford a bed, and no spawn will be feasible until they can afford a place to keep a baby (i.e. crib).  No bed is possible until they earn some money/get a job.  No promotions possible without skills which will be hard to get at entry level wages.

7. Ban all reward objects, not that they're likely to get many anyway.

8. Don't understand the question or issue regarding community lot showers.  Not sure this is an issue, if they are allowed to have a bathroom at home.  If they are allowed only an empty house (i.e. no fixtures at all) then I would allow comm lot showers.  If they have a shower at home (cheap one), ban the comm lot showers, sure.

The issue is that adoption removes two criteria: getting to a love stage with another sim, and the trials and tribulations of pregnancy with no or ineffective comfort/energy objects. Also, you can adopt children. This shortens the raising time, making it possible to cram more kids in a lifetime, plus the amount of "work" each child takes. Restricting to babies keeps the raising time and "work" but still removes the need for making a relationship and pregnancy woes.

Totally agreed. I understand keeping the sim at the entry level (or maybe a glass ceiling of level 2/3, since generally they still make crap money at that stage). Eventually they'll have money, but not much. Entry level jobs bring in approx. $200/day, 6 days a week. In a sim's adult lifetime, we're talking $4,800. Now, if you give them an easel as their creativity tool and they are selling the paintings...well. That would at least double it. Maybe no selling paintings? Was that in there?

My suggestions: 
3. Only move in is for marriage (not necessary if your founder is female - she can get spawn without marriage.  Male sims would need a spouse to ensure spawn is part of the family).  No move outs, not even teens (unless they run away).  I think if you rely on alien abduction without some cheat for a male CAS, a level of high improbability of completing the challenge is introduced, especially if skill items (like telescope) are disallowed (and if they're poor, they should be disallowed).[/quote]Sounds good to me. I hate that you can only start with a female, even though I generally do start my single households with women. But if you marry in, their moneys they bring should be negated, and no job for them.
And this, I think, is where we need a clarification on the goal of the challenge. Is it to see how many kids you can successfully raise while living on almost nothing, or is it to raise yourself above your beginnings. I read it as the former.
Because they have to afford the shower, and hygiene desperation is one of the most annoying and one that isn't "taken care of" at work. It's also a possible turn-off for mates.

Although I played out the challenge starting with a female CAS sim, I don't see why you should't be able to it with a male using TJ's pregnancy for all mod. The only restriction I would put there is no bi female founders. They should choose to be straight or gay, otherwise you're doubling the potential breeding partners.

I found it easy to avoid promotion by choosing a job with a skill level requirement and avoiding getting that skill. Perhaps if your sim gets promoted you should be forced to automatically get a different job. After all they shouldn't be 'getting ideas above their station.'  ;) Kids with skill points may get the occasional prize/award from school which is in fact not covered in the rules, but I assumed it was ok as it probably only amounted to 500 simoleans over the whole challenge.

My take on the challenge is that you're trying to raise a family from literally nothing as the bulk of the scoring is based around family oriented success/failure. The net worth is a secondary and really reflects how well you did at providing for the family. At the end of my test I had 20 points for kids and 13 points for net worth (or 12 points if I was meant to round down). I didn't score any negatives but then my gameplay style often revolves around coping with large families, quads don't even faze me anymore!

OK, then I would definitely ban adoption and promotion, but by the same token, ban any skilling items (i.e. telescopes, pianos, easels, workout machines, etc.) that poverty stricken sims would not be able to afford anyway.  This would allow them to focus on their inevitable aspiration failures and the need to raise their kids.

I still like the idea of allowing marriage in, with the restriction that you have to negate any funds the spouse brings in.  Shouldn't hurt if only one sim can be employed at any one time.  In fact, it would add to the challenge as the founder would have to support a spouse and any spawnlings.


OK I can see banning the showers then.  In that case, I would advocate for totally unfurnished house (they have to be able to afford everything including beds and chairs before they get it), including no bathroom fixtures.  They could sponge bath in the sink at a comm lot (do they do this ever?).  I understand that they will pee in the bushes (is this true?) if there is no terlet around.  On the other hand, it has to remain at least remotely possible that they can find a mate to get spawn.

Where exactly would be the challenge in that?

If the points were awarded at birth, you could have a bunch of kids, let the social worker take them away, and keep farming kids for points.

In principle yes, but:
.. not sure if that would be a good strategy  ;)

I am phail. But, shall press on.
 I had to start over yet again, because I had in a no freeze or combust ever hack that I didn't remember. Plum Busted had given
birth to twins when winter hit and totally buried the twins in snow :D.
They're each apparently blaming the other for this indignity. (http://aycu19.webshots.com/image/26418/2001504879912507377_rs.jpg)

But nobody died and no social worker came-so, I enjoyed the hilarity of the scene for a minute or two, then I quit the game, removed some hacks, and started over.

I'm on day three with this new attempt and she has yet to get pregnant as I can't seem to get her sufficiently attracted to anyone or vice-versa. I gave her the romance aspiration, but everyone gags at the sight of her-I've never seen that with a romance sim. ??? It can't be the hygiene issue-all other attemptsl had that.

Also, I wasn't sure it there was a CC rule.
Some of the items I'd like to use in order to give the lot a grungy feel, are much cheaper than the Maxis item in the same category.
For instance, at the end of the sofa, in the pic, I used a cooler that was cloned on the refrigerator. All the options and were the same, but it was cheaper.
Any time I did this, I went into build mode and 'terrained' away enough simoleans to make up the cost difference.

Romance sims, interestingly, have the shittiest aspirational chemistry compatibility of any other sim. Especially with family sims, which is odd, given how many family/romance pairings that the game ships with...

msalwaysright, thanks for that screenshot :D it's funny and it made me realise that I've never seen Baskerville in the snow before!


I'm sort of done -- I think so at least: there's one exploit, not sure if that's intentional, in that the youngest kid won't age transition if s/he's asleep (or sitting/lying down?) at 18:00 -- and the rules say "when the youngest child of your first (CAS) sim becomes a teen" ;D I'm currently on the next day 18:30 and still no age transition. I think this is the same phenomenon as with the elders: if they're sitting/lying on every full hour, they won't die. If the kid in question has an A+ on the day they should be transitioning, they can miss school for 3 or 4 days I think? plus a weekend means the timespan can be extended by 5 or 6 days, perhaps more if there's a way to extend the baby/toddler stage in the same fashion. That's what I was about to do, but it felt a little bit cheaty .. and it wouldn't have worked for me anyway because the kid had missed school before and only had a B or something to start with.

Anyhow. As of day 44 (one day past the scheduled age transition), my score is 23 (rounded down) for net value (23.401§) plus 16 for the four kids my founder had -> 39 points (plus possibly 4 extra points for the one grandchild I managed to squeeze in, if it's decided that they do count).

Pretty pictures:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/pbox/gstarchallenge/phase01.jpg
This pretty much sums up Phase One .. my founder almost died of the heat. Life's not easy in Seasons with no house and a dumbass user who buys a bathtub in the middle of summer  :P

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/pbox/gstarchallenge/07.jpg
Not sure what those aspiration points are for .. probably not for cleaning the toilet she just puked in while standing knee deep in weeds?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/pbox/gstarchallenge/phase02.jpg
Phase Two: House! This basically just serves to keep the screaming kids locked away (and at room temperature) -- the founder and her firstborn are still sleeping outdoors .. nice and quiet =)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/pbox/gstarchallenge/17.jpg
Phase Twoandahalf: more house. I kept the bathtub outside to avoid privacy issues .. funny how they won't undress in front of their little sister, but with the rest of the neigbourhood they've got no such problem ::)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/pbox/gstarchallenge/phase03.jpg
Phase Three
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/pbox/gstarchallenge/22.jpg
Inside view (upstairs are just three more beds and an extra bathroom). I only added the counter on one of the last days to get rid of the fish they had caught the summer before .. up to then, they were still on gelatin diet. The easel was in use pretty much 24/7 and provided most of their income; I guess the income from the lemonade stand also adds up over time. This is on the afternoon of day 43, the youngest kid is asleep upstairs.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/pbox/gstarchallenge/20.jpg
Crappiest date gift ever.

Rest of the album here:
http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/pbox/gstarchallenge/?action=view&current=01.jpg
but be warned that it's backwards (i.e. press Back, not Next) .. they less-than-enamoured looking guy on picture 05 will be the father of three of her children  ;D


Questions/Suggestions:

Does being retired count as "being employed" or not? I had the oldest child get a job maternity leave when my founder finally used up her vacation days and retired .. is that supposed to be OK?

I used no books at all since skills are pretty much worthless in this challenge .. however, I think it would be a good idea to incorporate them somehow (say, award points for every maxed skill) because otherwise, once 2 or 3 sims have maxed out creativity there's not much for the others to do .. I had the founder (zero neatness) salvage the trash in her spare time, the two oldest kids painted, and one of the others manned the lemonade stand -- leaves at least one sim with nothing to do.

Regarding adoption, in order to minimise the rules (I guess the fewer rules, the better?), perhaps the children points should be given for each child *born* on the lot instead of "each child"? Then adoption wouldn't need to be ruled out -- players who want to adopt can do so, but it doesn't give you a direct advantage in terms of score.

I see aspiration objects in those pics! Naughty.  :-X

Shall give this a roll with one of my Free Love Cult offspring. I just can't decide between it being fugly Blythe (bad gene splicing) or Brook (cute as a button). That family has four adults, seven kids, and at least two more on the way. Any options for starting as a teen? I can clear their skill points, and they have no adult friends outside the family. Blythe has the added bonus of being a Fortune sim.

Which pics, my pics? I think that's the synctimer you're seeing  :)

Suuuure, if that's the story you're telling.  :P
Anyways, I was impressed with your squalor.

I'm just saying that there seems to be a contradiction in that the rules seem to suggest that you can have skilling items, but never use the skills (i.e. to get promoted).  Testers so far seem to have supplemented income using the easel, for example.  My suggestion was to start with nothing (perhaps walls and floors and a basic cheap fridge.  The challenge would be to afford anything.  Otherwise the challenge seems to be trying to keep the sim from getting promoted while making them highly skilled as well.  I suppose one could ensure that they simply did not develop all the skills necessary for promotion (i.e. skip skilling in one area).

I gather that the point of the challenge is to keep the founder and spawn in a state of more-or-less total poverty.  I would note that a sim with maxed out creativity can make between 500-700 simoleans per painting, which could result in some fairly well-off "poor" sims.  Other than that, using the easel or lemonade stand to supplement income might be considered OK, since they depend on skill, rather than job success.

I might try this with one of my Asylum Challenge "leftovers".  I have a romance sim who is "inviting" me to torture her a bit - it would be impolite not to oblige.

I've decided that servos are okay in this challenge, because they don't count as children, and they have to be able to afford the workbench anyway.

I've decided to eliminate the toddler toy exception.

Since skilling is no longer useful for careers, I am thinking of giving .25 points for every sim that maxes out all skills. That way there is a point to limiting the skilling objects to one object per skill.

I might add a penalty for transitioning in aspiration failure.

I think I will also make it so that all objects must be purchased from the catalog. Challenge sims may not purchase items by visiting an owned business lot, because this allows people to set things really cheap for the poverty challenge sims to buy.

I think I'm going to forget about the shower rule. It just means they will have to spend more time on the community lot washing their hands or waiting for the aspiration failure with the sink, and I don't think it really adds that much to the gameplay since they can eventually get clean on the community lot, anyway. Unless that has changed with one of the expansion packs?

There is no way I would allow sims to start with anything more than the cheapest coffee table and a phone. Walls make it too easy! And there is also no way I want to allow promotions. The challenge is to make as much money as you can with only an entry level job, so it is understood that you will have to use other methods. As far as preventing them from getting promoted goes, you'll just have to figure it out. I want the sims to slowly improve their living conditions, but allowing them to get promoted changes the balance of the challenge and make it too easy. The idea is that you should have as many people on the lot as possible, with little money and little space.

I am leaning more strongly toward requiring the download of the 2x1 lot, with 2 squares on the street. There's nothing wrong with downloading a lot if it contains no CC. A basic lot file is just about one of the cleanest things you can add to the game, and if you are worried about it, you can use the clean installer. I want the lot to be as small as possible, so that as the family grows, you have trouble with space constraints. However, I decided that while there doesn't have to be a limit to the number of sims on the lot, moving out should be allowed for people like me with crappy computers who have trouble with lag.

I don't mind that the downside of no move-ins is that you must start with a female sim. I don't really see it as a problem. Not allowing move-ins means, first of all, that your sims can't get the money from the other sim moving in. I also feel like eliminating all the money from the move-in also just makes the rules more complicated. But it is something I would consider. On the other hand, no move-ins means it is harder for your sims to go on dates, and people are less likely to keep moving sims in with the pregnant teen version of the challenge (that was a problem with the other version--even though it is not normal teen behavior). It means that the sim will have trouble initially with caring for children while keeping a job, because there is no adult at home to stay with them. So I like that the no move-ins makes the challenge harder in some small ways. What do you guys think?

As far as adoption goes, Zazazu is right about how it gives an advantage. And I agree that, if it's allowed, it should be limited to babies only. What I can't decide is whether it makes it too easy to grow the family, or if the additional children they can get through adoption is a strategy that is desirable and something I want to allow. After all, it will be a while before they are able to adopt anyway, since the game normally prevents adopting in poverty. It would also allow people to start with a male sim, although it would still be at a disadvantage.

I don't know where I stand on limiting the objects that sims can have to things that make them seem poor. I feel like it's better to only restrict a few objects for that reason, and not worry about the rest of them. So aside from banning a few specific objects for flavor or reasons of gameplay, the sims can buy whatever they can afford. After all, they have to earn the money to get it, anyway.

As far as aging goes, I could always require people to age their sims as soon as the option becomes available. I can also change it so that the child points are not awarded on reaching the teen stage, but subtracted if the kid moves out before then, as with the Poverty Challenge. The only reason for awarding them on reaching teen was to try and simplify that rule, but you guys are right that it causes problems with the grandkids.

Someone suggested a rule to me in grah about only allowing one bedroom for the entire family (and no floor dividers). What do you all think?

Interesting...I shall have to give this one a go.

Whew. Even with showers, the approved lots were laid out so that keeping a positive balance on motives was pretty difficult.

True. Once I finally had four walls and roof and the bare basics,(couch, sink, refrigerator, grill, toilet) it wasn't that hard to keep
motives up.

I'm working with basically that size now. I'm using a 3x1 lot, but the sides are raised, preventing me from building anywhere except the very center. I now have four kids and the space constraints are indeed a challenge.

Besides the money issue, move-ins help with the kids, really neat ones do the dishes, etc.
For example, all my sim's kids have the same father and he has started dropping by and autonomously helping out. If he lived-in full-time, it would be too much of an advantage as far as keeping the spirit of this challenge.

Cool. I know I've seen plenty of people who seemed 'poor' who had big screen TVs, hottubs, and the like. Especially in the US, thrift stores and flea markets have computers and the like for little to nothing.

That is just evil. I'm not sure, with babies (especially with the Seasons crying issue) the lack of sleep could conceivably kill the whole family.

I think the aesthetic squalor points should be raised,though. Mainly because, boy, do I have a lot of squalor. :D

There often is a reason that they are so cheap, you know?

I'm starting this this weekend with Blythe, but in adult stage as intended. Both my oldest Free Love kids ended up being Fortune sims, but as Blythe is kind of the odd-girl out (her mom died during her second pregnancy due to "complications", and Blythe herself is the product of some rather awful gene splicing) it seemed more fitting that she'd split off from everyone else. I'll bomb her skill points and relationships with any non-family sims before setting her down.

As for the lot issue, my comments weren't meant to suggest that there's anything wrong with using CC or the itty lots. Quite the contrary. My download folder is back up to 2 gigs, and the mini lots are staples for me. I use the 1x1s frequently for community lots and mini parks, and the 1x2s for row houses. I just meant that some of the community (read: BBS) is still under the false impression that anything hacky will kill your game.

So what would happen, then, if your founder never has children? There wouldn't be any youngest kid transitioning to teen then .. how would you terminate the challenge?



Absolutely agree -- also, it's making it harder in one pretty big way: if you can't move in anyone, there will be nobody there to cool down or unfreeze the founder (until her own kids are old enough, that is) .. I had real difficulties keeping mine alive during the first summer, so I'm very much in support of that rule  :D



Maybe there should be a limit on the number of adopted kids, though? Because otherwise, if you take it to the extreme and adopt a new kid every day, unlimited adoptions would give a huge advantage to people with fast computers (that still run fine with 20 sims on the lot, I mean). Also, any babies adopted in the last few days before the end of the callenge would be "free points" of sorts, if you award child points upon move in (not upon birth, and not when reaching teen) .. you could just adopt them and drop them in a corner, I mean, without having to worry about actually raising them, and still get the points .. so, I'm not really convinced that that adds a lot to the challenge.

But, related question: what's your opinion on cheesecake?



Near the end of the challenge, I bought a few paintings and super expensive armchairs to make my fortune kids happy -- I must say those wants were a welcome change from always the same private school / sell masterpiece / earn money wants. I think it kinda supports your idea behind making them fortune in the first place, finally being able to buy expensive crap I mean, so I like the fact that this is possible =).

Additional question re. expensive crap: do you know whether or not expensive stuff in the sims' inventories (read date gifts) counts towards net family value? If it does I think it should be subtracted so as to not provide an unfair advantage to Nightlife users.



Don't understand .. why would you want to do that?  ???  *lightbulb* Ah, because of the possible sleep-through-birthday exploit? I'd simply require aging when aging is due, in that case (18:00) .. because as far as I know the option becomes available earlier than that, but I've no idea when exactly, and it might be a bit tedious and distracting if we had to constantly check that for every sim on the lot.


I think the Poverty Challenge way is best. Or simply forbidding pre-teen moveouts .. that way, you wouldn't have to juggle points around?



Um, not so fond of that. Feels like a rather arbitrary restriction on the achitectural options .. I think for the "authentic ghetto feel", someone sleeping on the livingroom couch and someone in the kitchen and someone in the veranda works better than one large "dorm room". That strikes me as rather unrealistic. Maybe this is different in other parts of the world, I just know that in my own family (eastern european countryside) the kitchen couch used to be the common thing for the kids (apart from stuffing them into the parents' bed, which we can't do in the game).

Oh, but ..

Right -- bedroom might mean babies too .. oh boy .. then I'm afraid I'll have to support that rule  ;D

Also, re. small lots --
Probably, but .. that's not really the target demographic for this kind of challenge is it? =)

I'm nearing the end. Banoobies Brokeass II now has five spawns-one infant, one toddler, two children and a teen-in her little shack, and in two days, she will be an elder.

Squalorific pics:
Nearing the end of week one:                                                                                      Partially into week two:
(http://aycu31.webshots.com/image/23270/2002443634277944484_rs.jpg)(http://aycu13.webshots.com/image/26452/2002411047443071663_rs.jpg)

Baby #2 (I only just noticed that those jammies don't have a pregnancy morph)           Nervous breakdown #1, which came shortly after baby #3
(http://aycu35.webshots.com/image/22554/2002421058556203487_rs.jpg)(http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/26108/2002432811670166053_rs.jpg)

I hope I'm not spamming this thread with unwanted pics, but I haven't had time to organize and post them elsewhere yet.

Msalwaysright, have you tried this: http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=237740 ? Freaking fantastic fixes of all Maxis meshes to include the pregnancy morph. Those pjs look like they are based on the sloppy pjs, which one of my Free Lovers uses.

I'm working on this one. I may have taken things a little too literally from the rules as I gave her $100 only and the phone & table had to be purchased from that. Unfortunately I didn't get any jobs that started until Tuesday, which had me very very screwed. I kind of "cheated" by letting her eat out once. Story here: Ghetto Fabulous (http://thesims2.ea.com/exchange/story_detail.php?asset_id=181903)

She's currently pregnant with #1 and winter starts tomorrow. Only has the cheapest double bed, cheapest toilet, cheapest shower, and half-fridge (I got her a cell phone). She has a lot of fish in her inventory but no way to cook it yet. No walls yet.

msalwaysight - I almost want to play this challenge just for the grunge look! Lovely pics. Zazazu's Blythe spirit? Heading straight for purgatory!  :D

Zazazu, thanks for that link-just what I need. I think you're right about the jammies, I got them from Mermaid's Cove.


That's what I did. I think it left her with maybe $7. I love that you gave Blythe Spirit Taylor some backstory :D.


That's what made me want to try it. I have an entire grunge neighborhood, but I usually just use the motherlode cheat to get the lot way I want it.
This was a much more interesting way to play.

I think you need to make a rule about selling gifts that are lefts on dates... I was playing this challenge last night and was brought a hot tub.  I decided to sell it and well....ended up bored out my mind b/c that totally took the challenge away.  And what about selling flowers left after dates?  Yes or no, must be stashed in inventory?

Also agree that some rule about CC needs to be added...like nothing cheaper than the cheapest Maxis made item when it comes to things like beds...couches ect.  I have some cheaper ones downloaded and it is too much of a cheat...that and some of them, if I tried to sell them back for cash or something they actually sold back for more than I paid for them...dunno what is up with that.

Or maybe there should be a rule that you can't sell anything back that you buy.  If you buy a toilet and run out of food...tough luck you can't sell your toilet to buy any more food.  I think that adds more realism to some extent. 

I'm going to try to play with some of this stuff in place and see if it makes it better for me.

Dunno about the date thing. It's definitely been helping mine, but then it depends on the guy you are dating. I've had townies who don't give anything...ever. Greg is the opposite. He's already dropped off a video game, a $4,000 vase, and the DJ booth. Needless to say, the house is plenty big now though I've been trying to spend a lot of the money on useless crappy looking decorative objects.

Time to start the constantly-pregnant dance. Blythe (it's Taylor, not Spirit) had twins for her first pregnancy.

Probably because I called her a Blythe spirit in a previous post, very Anne of Green Gables.

I would think this

includes date gifts? Maybe it needs to be worded more clearly?



I think that's how it's meant to be: 100§ to start with, not 100§ plus phone and stuff. Also, there is no job starting earlier than tuesday (not among the base game carreers at least) -- I've always assumed that that's intentional, so that your newly moved-in sim gets to meet the welcome wagon.


Oh and re. CC objects,


that's because their price is messed up .. not all creators pay attention to that. Go by your own "no borrowing stuff" rule I'd say, then you don't need to care about it (plus it'll be more fun -- I've done the same thing and it does make the challenge a lot more realistic! Same goes for no selling date gifts, which I thought was a rule anyway).

ETA: I think I also remember seeing a tool somewhere that you can fix borken prices with, and also in-game ratings (comfortableness and such), and thinking "this looks so easy that even I could do it" .. I think it was the Categorizer on http://www.simwardrobe.com/ ? Never tried it myself, but it looks useful.


Something else I forgot (i KNOW I should stay off the internet before coffee #3  .. I'm just too fogheaded to remember that rule until after said coffee :P), about the adoption / male founders thing:

Starting with a guy will *always* be a huge disadvantage, whatever you do about the adoptions -- by the time a male sim has scraped together the 3.000§ or whatever that he needs to adopt, a female can already have their 3rd kid in the oven -- plus she can have twins, but you can't adopt twins (or can you?). This is basically a challenge that can only be played with a female, straight sim. Or of course with the preg-for-all hack that eevilcat mentioned way upthreads (I wouldn't really see a need to rule out bi founders then -- there's no advantage in having kids with different partners or finding a particularly good mate or anything, is there? Finding someone, anyone, to carry off to the bedroom is really not that hard compared to the rest of the challenge ..)

I've never heard of twins being adopted, so I'm pretty sure that's out.

I got hit by the multiple-delivery bug, first time I've ever had it though I've heard of it quite a bit. Luckily it only repeated once. So she had twin toddlers already and then ended up having effectively twin babies. Four basically helpless kids at once is a bit much for one sim. Guess that's why they call them "challenges".

Oh I somehow missed the no gifts from off lot sims or whatever even though I did read over the entire thread.

So what do you do with them?  I have simply left them there to keep my sims in poverty. 

I've kept them in their inventory .. I think that's what we were supposed to do in the Poverty Challenge as well.

I actually thought I would allow selling date gifts for this challenge. I think it makes things more fun that way. Plus, from my experiments with the pregnant teen version, I'm not at all certain it's possible to not sell date rewards and still keep the baby.

In terms of banning gifts and inheritances, it's because I don't want people having their other controllable sims giving them a ton of stuff with the "give gift" interaction. A sim randomly dropping off a date reward is not something the player can control, so that's okay.

The reason dating rewards were banned for the Poverty Challenge is because I was trying to make the game fair for people without the nightlife expansion pack. However, for this challenge, I'm not even going to try anymore. There are too many EPs out by now, and it's not worth the trouble. If people want, they can just list their expansion packs and consider themselves to be competing in different categories.

Cheesecake is allowed.

As far as the hundred simoleans thing goes, yes, you DID read the rules correctly. After buying a table and a phone (or whatever), I think you should only have about 11 left.

I've decided I'm definitely doing the 2x1 lot thing. And I think you are right about banning adoption... I like the added element of craziness, but it could be unfair for people with slower computers. Besides, allowing cheesecake should help to increase the chaos.

I like the idea of the no borrowing stuff rules and the no cheap CC rules... on the other hand, I feel like if I start making rules about CC, and how people use stuff, things could get a little crazy.

What about a rule that you can't sell something back until it has depreciated at least once? That could discourage borrowing, but still allow players to have flexibility in how they manage their game.

That sounds fine. At the lower levels (when you would need to buy and sell back) that depreciation loss is tough. I had to manually direct a lot of handwashing just because I was $2 away from getting the cheapest shower and there was no way a mate was going to touch her while she was giving off stink.

As for date rewards, people who give a hoot about their relative scores should probably mention if they have Nightlife or not, since it potentially makes a big difference. Even once one guy is out of stuff, the sim can start dating another for rewards. But there's another thing about dates...they are a huge aspiration boost and randomly give clean points. A dream date can take even a non-pleasure sim from slightly in the red to platinum. So maybe one date a day limit? One date every two days?

If anyone cares, I'm keeping my story on the exchange updated as it plays through. I'm slow.

What about one date per partner per day, or, better yet, per week? That way there's a benefit to having multiple partners - prostitution pays

Oh. Well, then .. one more reason to test/play this again =)


Maybe you should expicitely write *playable* sims in that rule then (right now it says "off-lot sims"), to avoid misunderstandings -- perhaps throw it in with your other idea about ruling out extra cheap stores .. for example, "the challenge stays on the challenge lot: you can't have other playables give gifts to your sims (etc etc) or sell them stuff extra cheap", i believe then the point would be clearer.


Sounds very reasonable; maybe you should also mention this in/below the rules (to avoid people complaining about the whole thing being unfair, I mean)



Perhaps, instead of yet another "forbidden" rule, give bonus points for not borrowing stuff? (This could work for other things too that are kind of optional, like adoption or dating) Too many or too strict or too easy rules may discourage people from playing -- a bonus would still point in the right direction, but is more flexible and open towards players with different levels of experience. You could also give bonus points for not selling the date gifts, or for getting the kids into private school, or for having every child with a different partner, or for reaching an LTW, or for having everyone sleep in one room, or for never going to a community lot ... that would also encourage trying different ways to play, without excluding people who think the rules are too hard or too easy or too difficult to remember.


ETA, as usual:


So does this mean we can use the benches and sell stuff? :o Or can we just *make* the servos?

You pretty much have to sell stuff to badginate to get to making a servo, or you're paying far, far more than the simple cost of the servo in wasted practice materials

I've just completed this challenge tonight, it ended when my CAS sim was ~62 days old. While it wasn't easy, it was certianly a nice break from my usual simming, and I'll now be rewarding my poor sim with the marriage she's wanted since setting foot in her new lot!

Jobs. My sim started in the law enforcement track, eventually got fired, landed a job in the politics track, got fired and managed to go back to the law enforcement again. She seemed to have trouble with "Try for Baby", so pregnancies weren't as planned as they should've been, resulting in getting the sack when she refused to go to work to look after the toddlers. The income gave us ~£300 per day, less a couple of days where she refused getting a new job.

Skills. I didn't pay too much attention to skills but there was an easel for extra income and, in the end, a mirror purely because I hated my five female sims all sporting the same hairstyle. I think had there been more incentive to work on skills I would have done, however bad moods were rife in the beginning days. Overview of skils earned, bearing in mind that I didn't even try:

Brittany (CAS sim): 1/1/0/0/0/9/2 (co/me/ch/bo/lo/cr/cl)
Belle (1st born, became adult on last day): 1/1/0/0/0/2/2
Beth (2nd born, ended as a teen): No skills
Bobbi (3rd born, became teen on last day): 0/0/0/0/0/1/2
Brandi( 4th born, became teen on last day): 0/0/0/0/0/0/1 

It's worth noting that they picked up a lot of cleaning points from mopping up puddles off of the bare floor, which you can't direct them to do in game (I think my founder, to my mistake, was a neat 8 sim)

Family. My Sim headed downtown everynight, sometimes having dates to improve motives, often stealing food Ethiopian style until she met a nice young man. It took her a long time to get pregnant the first time, I think she was already half way through her adult life. She had four girls in total, the last couple being *OMG!TWINZ!!!11*. Looking after her while pregnant was a pain in the ass, but by that time she had brought a fridge. The next major expense was some wall and a toilet, a shower then being the next purchase. By the time the twins were born she had a one room shack in which the toilet, TV and cots were kept. (It's worth noting that I don't have Seasons, and I figure the EP would have really had a effect on my playing of this challenge). There was one fire through-out the challenge, caused by a Sim who had never seen a cooker before trying to cook pancakes the first morning they had a stove.

Points. By my reckoning, I have 21 points: 5pts (£5155 Net Value) + 4x4 pts for four children all reaching teen. I had no teen run-aways, and out of the 13 age transitions I only had two that had "Grew up badly" memories. There were two instances of A+ report cards and one instance of Aspirational Failure. I even had one fight brought on by two rival siblings making full use of the newly installed fight club. It was fun.

I think that's about it. I found this challenge a refreshing change, and the first that has actually challenged me.

I haven't actually installed Seasons yet, so I don't know if this is even possible, but couldn't the founder just catch fish and harvest produce on a community lot that contains a pond and fruit-trees or crops, thus eliminating the need to build a pond or buy trees/crops on the sim's property? In theory, you could just send your sim to a community lot that has a pond or trees/crops, a photobooth, a grill, a toilet and shower, and some sort of caffeination station, park her there indefinitely, and have her eat, caffeinate, and procreate whilst catching fish and harvesting produce (and I presume storing these things in inventory). With Dizzy's community time hack, her pregnancy would, I assume, progress as normal, even on a community lot. Perhaps you should add a rule to restrict such behaviour, as it would make things way too easy.

To me, the community lot mooching is actually quite realistic for a ghetto theme, since most inner-city residences wouldn't have ponds and gardens. Just a thought.

I also wanted to mention that the 'primp' and 'gussy up' interactions boost hygiene by small amounts, so if you get desperate, you can always order your sims to primp many, many times. Primping is free, after all.

That's supposed to be covered in the rules. They aren't allowed to caffeinate, procreate (since this is only possible with a hack, and therefore cheating), fish or earn money on community lots. They also shouldn't be able to add things to their inventory on a community lot. The gardening is definitely a loophole I hadn't thought of, though, since it wouldn't be a problem on pre-made lots and it didn't occur to me that you could do that.

On the subject of community garden lots:

I live in a suburb where there is a lot of government housing, which is mostly occupied by welfare recipients and people on low incomes.  There is a community garden project in the suburb, where locals can go and grow vegetables if they want, and learn from others at the project how to garden.

If the time factor was accounted for (either by meditating for the duration of the absence when the sim gets home, or by using Dizzy's community time hack) then where would be the problem of a community garden?  They occur in real life in low income areas, so why not in the game?

We have those in the UK as well, but they are called allotments. The origins are somewhere back in the 19th century and were then driven by the move away from the countryside to city/town living. Most modern allotments can be traced back to the two world wars where people were encouraged to grow their own food as part of the war effort. Nowadays allotments have become a very middle class preserve and are extremely popular; some have 10 year waiting lists. I was lucky and got one a couple of years ago so am now in the middle of the usual courgette (zucchini) glut.

Back to the challenge... Seasons' gardening/fishing does make it much easier but I think this is balanced out by the weather effects that force house construction to be priority number one. I would ban crops from community lots, ponds are so low cost it doesn't really matter. Thinking about it, can you even plant crops on a community lot? I imagine you could do it on an owned lot and you can definitely do it on a home business as Pescado produced a fix so that the lot owner gets the produce.

I think someone could play a residential lot until the crops are ready for harvest, then kill the farmer sim and use changelotzoning to make it a pick-your-own kind of place, so that sims visiting the lot could harvest the crops right away. Otherwise you are running into the time (or at any rate, annoyance) limit for challenge sims to stay on community lots past the point at which their energy meter is empty.

Yes. Urban Paradise has two 1x1 community gardens I set up. You have to have a sim own it. Then you visit the lot and direct them to plant. Then activate boolprop and pause. Shift-click on plants and choose "Make Harvestable". Queue up a bunch of them. Then quickly unpause/pause and repeat. This makes everything tasty and bug-free. Now, as soon as everything is harvestable you need to high-tail it off the lot before bugs set in (unless you built a greenhouse...mine are open-air). Then sell the lot back to the community. Now visitors can come and harvest the top-quality crops for free.

I haven't done that with my challenge, though, as even though it wasn't explicitly in the rules it seemed very much contrary to the spirit of the challenge. I've actually added my own restrictions to keep her relatively poor and uneducated and am going the baby/date gift route for points. She's currently incubating #8 (or #8 & #9) and should complete the challenge having only worked one day. Putting the kids on fishing duty has helped her to survive back-to-back pregnancies, and Rylie and Cory are now helping with the youngest now that they are teens. Most of this challenge, for me, has been figuring how to fix borked genetics in sims and keeping the ugly from passing on. The way Rylie was going to look as an adult....gag. Huge lips, huge bumpy nose....words can't even describe. I've fixed her successfully to transition into a proper version of her teen look instead of a freak.

Obviously, I didn't read the rules closely enough. Oops! I like the idea of a community garden. It seems very realistic.

I had a brief attempt with up to OFB. I had to cheat to save her as she was fired on Thursday without sufficient money for a fridge. I had bought a sofa, basin and one piece of wall and Thursday's pay would have been enough for a mini-fridge (just in time as she had Friday off). I had to alternate the basin and fridge to revive her enough to get another job. I did keep going, but obviously suck as her two eldest are teens and she only has one room.
I might give it another go in a bit.

PHAIL! Who needs a fridge?  :D

That would be my sucky play style.  :P I don't do comm lots and she wasn't interested in the rubbish.

Pizza's a good cheap alternative. Get pizza, eat to full, put in inventory.

Okay, here are my proposed changes to the rules at this point.

Make the aspiration of the children either money or random (chosen with a die).

No more toddler toy exception.

Proposed point bonuses to make things more interesting:
plus 2 points for each sim that maxes out all of their skills.
plus 2 for every sim with over 300,000 aspiration points
plus 3 points for never moving any sims out. You may use a mod to allow more than 8 sims.
plus 5 points if your sims never get a job.
plus 3 points if your sims never visit a community lot
plus 5 points if you play the entire game without a phone
plus 5 points for keeping all date rewards in inventory forever, and neither using nor selling them

Child Points
minus 4 points for each sim that moves out before reaching adulthood

Child points are awarded at birth, but are lost if the sim is moved out before reaching adulthood. Sims that are not adults may not move out alone, since this is only possible in a hacked game.

Custom careers are allowed, provided the entry level of that career pays no more than 350 simoleans a day, and the sim works no more than 5 days a week.

Custom content is allowed. You may not use custom content which increases in value after you buy it (beside art objects which appreciate normally). You may not use any items cheaper than the cheapest maxis item (exception walls and floors).

Playing with a male pregnancy mod or pregnancy for all is allowed, but ONLY under these conditions: sims may be gay or straight, but NOT bi. Sims are only allowed to date/woohoo with a sims of a single sex. They may not date/woohoo sims of both sexes. In addition, sims may only date/romance/woohoo with sims of the correct age group, as defined by maxis behavior in an unmodified game. This means that teens may date teens but no other ages, YA's may date adults, adults may date YAs and elders, and elders may romanticate with other elders and adults. You may not use a hack or a mod to impregnate the sim artificially. Is this language clear enough?


PROPOSED CHANGES TO LANGUAGE
Rule 12, re-phrased.

12. No more than one skilling item allowed per skill. For example, with the creativity skill, this means you may have either one easel, one instrument, one toddler xylophone, or one computer, but never all three at the same time. If you have a book (cooking, cleaning, mechanical), you may not have the children's play oven (cooking). Learning skills from "experience" is okay: if you own a book, you are still allowed to own a shower, repair it when it breaks and clean it when it gets dirty.

CLARIFICATION:
Servos do not count as children. They are allowed, but players won't get any points for them.

CAVEATS:
Adding too many bonuses and new rules may make the challenge too complicated. I don't want the rules to be difficult to remember. Keep in mind that I'm ultimately posting this for the 12-year-olds on the sims 2 community site (because I promised  :P). And I want things to be somewhat intuitive, so people don't have to print out the rules to keep track of them.

I'm concerned that allowing additional hacks to be used (even only under specific circumstances) will lead to more stupid "may I use this obviously cheaty hack?" questions.

Should I just leave the move-out rules as they are, to be more like the poverty challenge? Or is it more intuitive to simply not allow move-outs until the kids are adults, as suggested?

I haven't had OFB long and that didn't occur to me. *feels dumb*

This is completely negated by the benefits of dating. Blythe has stopped getting date rewards herself (5 boyfriends, and none are putting out as they've caught on) but she raked in approximately 10,250 in date rewards. Her children are now toying with the populace's affections, and between the six teens I've gotten 10,750 in rewards in three nights. Honestly, I've stopped doing dates for money anymore as the house is as big as I'd like it to get, they have all the furniture they need, and all I'd be spending it on is clutter. I'm just using dates as a way to keep perpetually disappointed fortune sims who really want a job and to go to college from killing each other. Anyways, that's 21 points for money less 5 for not putting the rewards in inventory. I'd still clear 16.

And drat you for that never-move-out bonus! I was planning on moving the kids out as they age to adult due to the fact that I'll have at least 12 sims in the house + dog at the end and it keeps getting slower and slower (me playing, not my system).

Yay/boo. On one hand, this is an incentive to get the kids to making grandkids, as it's not possible to have a teen grandkid before the last kid has reached teen (barring elixir, which is outlawed). On the other hand, that means more freaking sims to have to wade through on my UI!

You won't *lose* five points for not selling the dating awards--you just won't be able to add any. The idea is to at least offer a small incentive for people who might want to play that way. If you chose to go for that bonus, you'd be getting no points from the dating rewards but gain 5 for never selling them. I don't know that I want to make the incentive much stronger, because that kind of forces the issue. Do you think I should make it worth more? There's also the issue that not everyone necessarily likes to play with that many dates, so I don't know that people will normally be raking in that much. So it's hard to figure out how to balance it. Maybe make it ten points instead?

Same thing with the never-move-out... I tried to make it worth it to compensate, but not so high that people with slow computers would feel compelled to do it and have to put up with the lag. But if it's just a matter of managing chaos... hehehe, that's the idea.

By the way, has anyone tried playing this yet following the no book/bookcase rule? What about with no restrictions on gardening or by just limiting the number of garden plots (instead of playing stock-only). I like the idea of the sims making as much money as they can, in any way they can aside from working, but I'm concerned that too much success (or success too quickly) might make the challenge stop being fun. Anyone got a read on this?

Hmm... what about plus 2 for starting in Winter?

First, I are stupid and don't read. Doi, it wouldn't be 5 points off, just no additional 5 points.

People with slower computers would probably focus on different things. Skilling, for one. I haven't focused on skilling at all. Except for their toddler skills, and some points from bowling and gaining body skill (yes, I have community lot skilling hacks, but no one is going to max, so I won't be claiming those points) mine are unskilled losers. My main annoyance is not really family size...with all needed objects, they mostly take care of themselves. It's their propensity to stay outside running around *cough*noogies*cough* in the middle of the winter, until the two children go popsicle and I have to rush them inside. I tell them to go inside and sit for a bit, and sure enough one of them runs outside to play with the dog and all the rest follow.

Oh, plus, lack of bathrooms is an issue. I have five...three shower and toilets on the lawn and two bathrooms on the third floor off the kids' room (babies/toddlers/Blythe are on smaller second floor) but with eleven currently using them, it's getting to be difficult to coordinate. Will have to whore the kids out some more for money for a fourth floor. I've added my own personal rule that no more than $100 can be left in the coffers at 6am, so expansions still take planning....and the house is getting filled with crappity crap crap.

I got a book but never used it. It's not too much of an issue as I had my founder making sandwiches and cereal for her first couple cooking skill points, then used the sports channel-yummy channel exploit to get her to gain cooking skill the fun way when she was pissy, plus sat the kids in front of the yummy channel for a couple cooking points so they don't burn the house down too much. No gardening used in my game. No space for it...the yard is a dump. I don't think it's a major problem to allow selling...you won't be able to afford a greenhouse or ladybug houses for awhile, so crops will be hard to care for...especially while pregnant with ankle-biters. I used fishing exclusively for food once the low-level fridge ran out of food. Put the kids on fishing the last day before frost so they had ten in inventory, then set Blythe to mass-cooking them all and putting them in the fridge so they could pull out leftovers as needed.

At least ten, I would say! When I playtested, I didn't realise that selling date rewards was allowed at all -- I only had my sim go on dates in order to fulfill her wants, but even so I got at least 10K worth of date rewards .. without even trying. She was a pleasure sim, so she had date wants quite often, but still -- it's not only about the monetary value, it also gives you an enormous advantage to sell a date gift early on and being able to build a shed or buy a fridge, etc. Non-date-reward-sellers don't get that kind of head start.


Not sure what rule you mean, but I played entirely without books. Was not particularly difficult in my eyes (then again, I'm used to it; I have a whole subood of "illiterate" sims in my regular game).


Unlimited gardening/fishing for money might make it too easy, I think. Then again, I don't know what the profit is when you sell the ripe plants directly? I've only ever sold crops through stores in my game (to other sims I mean, via an ofb business), not with the "sell this plant" option. While I agree that it makes the challenge more fun when there's lots of different ways to make money, I believe if you allow gardening you should limit the number of plots so that they don't become cucumber tycoons overnight .. that would also be an incentive to make your sims earn badges, so that they can plant more profitable crops on the limited space they have? Provide an additional goal, in other words.


Also:

In principle yes, but:

"(..) sims may be gay or straight, but NOT bi. Sims are only allowed to date/woohoo with a sims of a single sex. They may not date/woohoo sims of both sexes" -- I believe you can kick out the latter 2 sentences: I would pretty much define "bi" as "dating/woohooing more than one sex", so the "only one single sex, which means not both sexes" elaboration is a bit redundant in my eyes?

"YA's may date adults, adults may date YAs and elders" -- dunno about YA's (don't have Uni), but adults surely may date YA's, adults, and elders?

Rule 12: "you may have either one easel, one instrument, one toddler xylophone, or one computer, but never all three at the same time"

Four, not three -- and I think what you mean is "never more than one of those"/"one of them" (not sure which is better), because two at the same time would be just as illegal as 3 or 4 or 17. The most idiotproof wording, in my eyes, would be "you may have either one easel OR one instrument OR one toddler xylophone OR one computer" with no additional buts and ands.

I have a proofreading tic :D (it's part of my job), hope I'm not getting on your nerves

what do you mean by sports channel-yummy channel exploit ??? please explain

Most sims will refuse to watch the Yummy Channel when at a low fun level due to educational programming being decidedly unfun. So you turn the tv onto a channel they enjoy (default for adults/teens/elders being the Sports Channel) until you see the fun start to increase. Immediately change to the Yummy Channel and they will continue watching, enjoying the same increase rate as they do on the Sports Channel. Plop a teen with a bottomed-out fun bar in front of the tv right after school, perform trickery, and they are almost maxed and ready to study in an hour.

woaw I had never noticed that ! (I mean, I know the adult don't like the yummy channel that much, but I never noticed you can change the channel and still have the old fun raise rate... Thanks

No, plasticbox, your "proofreading tic" is very helpful!

I can't believe I didn't notice the three/four thing.  :P

ETA... can I suggest putting all rules and proposed rules in the first post? I almost missed that preg for all can be used...Hooray!

I started with a pregnant teen - wow, an incredibly hard start, so much so that I started a second with an adult just for a break!
Starting with an adult was incredibly easy by comparison because she wasn't pregnant.  Plus, she only had drag her sorry ass to work, versus the school and work my poor teen struggled through. 

Currently playing my 'Pregnant teen' lot and the poor thing has been reduced to a breeding sow. She hasn't been to work in eons and after spawning her 7th child, her vac has hit 16 days. Her firstborn is an adult now and seeing as she can't get a job, has decided to begin her own spawn cycle.
Limiting myself to one approved community lots (it bites) and tiny residential lot (2x1?) with 2 pregnant adult females, 2 teen boys, 2 children, a toddler and a baby, it's become more challenging to keep everyone entertained with the 'one of each' rule, heh heh.  I like and am following all the Proposed changes, including the no toddler toy exception, though it makes things so much harder, I think it's a good rule. (think max skills should be worth more than 2 because with no smart milk/thinking caps and only one of each skill builder, that'd be damn near impossible)

Because I'm going to see exactly how many sims I can cram on this lot, I am thrilled with the Proposed preg for all.
My teen boys are dating, and I want them to enjoy the same risks as everyone else in my game when they reach adulthood. I'm playing in a clean neighbourhood with 30 freshly generated townies and they come in all ages so the pool is shallow. So far, one teen prefers his own gender, but with my founder following her firstborn (daughter) with 4 sons in a predominantly male neighbourhood, there will likely be more.

By the way, I'm playing without Seasons and OFB, so there's no inventory-ing pizza, leftovers, gardening, fish or lemonade stands. It makes things more challenging but I'm not sure they would have been able to do it without selling date rewards.

Hmm, that's obviously a flaw in the preg 4 all thing that I haven't thought of. You may not have sims of both sexes breeding, you have to pick one sex that is allowed to breed and stick with it. Either that or only use the hack with the CAS sim. I thought I would allow it in order to allow gay couples or starting the challenge with a man, but making it so that every sim is allowed to breed really throws a wrench in the works, and makes it really unfair for those without the hack. Hmm. Maybe I'll just scrap it altogether.

As far as the other rules go, I will update the first post when they are finalized.

I wouldn't consider it a flaw, perhaps just something that needed clarification.
I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage it would be to people without the hack, as they can always start with a female (which they would do anyway)
I think with a rule that only Sims of the same gender as your founder are allowed to breed, it's fine.

I'm glad I asked well before he reached adulthood.

Do a book and the TV count as duplicate cooking skilling items?

Yes, they do. The only ones where it doesn't count as a duplicate is with items where the skilling is completely incidental to the action in question, and it's one of those "learn by experience" things. So you are allowed to own a book and a kitchen counter at the same time. I'm not sure I've explained that very well, is it clear enough which objects are allowed and which are not?

hmm,
I have a Chessboard which is one object that gives one skill, though it has 2 seats... not 100% sure it's allowed (there is also the newspaper which could eventually give Logic if you did every crossword) but I figure that if Telescopes are allowed, it should be too...

I also have all 3 toddler toys but don't allow them on the lot at the same time (ie... the easel is gone until the toddler who wants creative points has hit child) though by the rules as stated, I could let my teen paint, put the easel in his inventory while he's in school so the toddlers can gain creative. Not sure what's intended so I do it the harder way.

You can have either the telescope OR the chess table OR the toddler logic toy. I'm not going to count the newspaper because you can't get rid of them and it is incredibly useless and lame. Hmm... maybe it's okay so long as you don't use the newspaper crossword while you own logic skilling objects. But for other objects, you shouldn't even have them.

Okay, potential updates/changes to the rules:

No digging/ sandcombing with BV! It's way too easy to get rich that way. Or maybe it can be allowed if they never sell anything they find, and it only clutters up the house? Hmm.

Under consideration: the house may only be ONE FLOOR, and a 2x1 lot.

I like the idea of making the challenge more fun by adding additional bonuses, although it may just make things more complicated.

Possible changes:

plus 30 for never selling anything, ever- no selling stuff back, no selling date rewards, no selling crafts from the craft benches, or paintings, or anything, ever

Plus 20 for never selling garden produce (but no limit on the size of the garden plots) (this bonus is not cumulative with the never sell anything bonus). This aspect of the challenge is still kind of fiddly, and I'm not sure what to do with it. I like the idea of having them constantly garden and sell vegetables and such, but they can earn an insane amount of money from it. Maybe if it is with tomatoes only? Hmm.

plus 10 for each sim child that maxes out all skills

Plus 10 for the pregnant teen challenge? Is that enough?

Also under consideration: a rule that sim kids can be sent to college, but only if they earn at least 4 or 5 scholarships- and they can't move back in unless they use no 20k handouts.  I still don't think I would want to allow private school, although the scenario might be more interesting. Hmm. Maybe if there were a way to make it more expensive, other than JM's hack?

I could also add a bonus if EVERY child goes to private school (if no child spends more than a single day in public school). But if you fail the challenge, there would be a penalty for every kid that gets in. It would have to be all or nothing.

So, maybe rather than just forbidding private school, it can be like a shoot-the-moon challenge in hearts: -3 for every kid that is accepted into private school, unless ALL of them are accepted (right away when they age to child, although they are allowed to attend public school ONCE after aging to child, provided the headmaster is invited as soon as the kid ages to child). And an additional -1 penalty for a failed headmaster visit.

Sorry late to the party here, been busy with another challenge.

There is one way of dealing with the shower issue.  Make it so they can only have one shower per sim, per day.  If they use that on a morning and the baby gags on them in the afternoon they are stuck and stinky.  It eases the child stink issue while still keeping it slightly challenging for those unlucky mishaps.

After all running water today is expensive! 

Meh, that's too fiddly, and kind of lame, since they only need to shower once a day, anyway. They'll be stinky enough as it is.

I'm looking at adding a bonus for only one room, and another for only one floor. Still trying to figure out the gardening thing- that's the biggest issue with this challenge. I also need to know if the value of items kept in inventory is added to the family net worth.

I'll be updating the rules today to reflect the current state of the challenge.

ETA: apparently items in inventory are not added to the family net worth. Yay.

Okay, today the challenge has been MASSIVELY UPDATED, taking into account the suggestions received so far in this thread. New, improved challenge is now the first post.

This mini-challenge under consideration.

SPACE SAVER:
Sim houses may only have ONE ROOM, on one level/floor. Objects may never be sold back to the catalog, ever, for any reason. Sims may not keep anything in inventory.

If you are going for the no dating rewards money bonus, dating rewards may be placed in the sim's inventory ONLY at the END of the challenge (along with uneaten fish outside the fridge), so they won't be included in the family net worth. If you end up with duplicate skilling items from dating, you will fail the challenge.

---

Questions:

What do you all think of the new bonus points for various things? The new mini challenges? What about the new rules for private school and going to college?And should sims be allowed to return from uni if they come back with no money or anything in their inventory, or does that just make everything too complicated (because it would have to be time-synced, etc.)? Finally: the gardening thing. Argh!

And I'm still trying to figure out the impact of BV. Should I allow vacations? What about only allowing children to dig for treasure (or fish, maybe)?

I'm also thinking of just banning ponds and changing the duration of the challenge, so that it ends when the first sim dies of old age. I'd kind of like it to last a little longer than that so as to achieve maximum chaos in the house, but I feel like waiting for the youngest child of the first generation to age up might just take too long. Between those two, I don't see a good point to end the challenge--by linking it to the second generation--which couldn't be easily manipulated so that the duration wouldn't be the same for most players (because there's always a point at which the sim can no longer breed). On the other hand, shorter kind of simplifies the challenge and prevents the neighborhood from being overloaded with sims from this one family.

Modified original post again for greater clarity. Most important rules sorted to the top, more FAQ nitty gritty type stuff toward the bottom, so hopefully the challenge concept is conveyed better and the bonus type stuff feels more optional. And I think I'll add a little thing at the top for flavor.

I hope I'm not doing a very bad thing, but I wanted to report my results and show off a little story. Please keep in mind that I use the Sims 2 as a character development tool for my writing, so some things might need more introduction than I give them. There are lots of lulz to be had, if one is patient. I write novels, so short stories always come out long for me.

Here's Kara Bikfoh, the mother of a friend of one of my main characters. I figured she was quite usable, therefore.
Kara started out on a very small lot, with two houses and an ally in which to live. The doors were locked to the impoverished houses. Kara started life on the streets in autumn, with a pile of leaves for her bed. There were also some decorative objects of random trash for atmosphere. This picture was obviously taken well into the challenge! (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_b517a989.jpg)

Kara got right to work, getting pregnant with the first (potential, non story-crushing) guy she met. I allowed a double bed in one of the houses that she could only use to woohoo on. After she was pregnant, the door was relocked. The original meaning, I guess, to "I wanna take you home." (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_f517b42a.jpg)

Kara focuses on her next task-- freestyling for tips making money by begging off the streets. Lana looks as if she has never seen poverty before.
 (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_3517b6b7.jpg)

Smelly tramp Kara greets everyone that walks by, and begs for money from everyone. It's not long until she has a little party made of many different Klans. Lemida herself shows up for the "fun." (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_5517b753.jpg)

Lemida steals the spotlight, and makes my Fee look more like a fairy. All of that muscle, and he is beaten down by a nekromanser! (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_7517b7d5.jpg)

To stimulate bits of food found in the garbage while she is waiting for her first day on the job, Kara gets some buyable cookies that leave lots of trash and gives little health. Also, everyone joins in her "feast." (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_f517a79a.jpg)

Here's the result. And she was so close to her pile o' leaves, too... (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_d517bafd.jpg)

Accidents will happen, and so it was when Kara got a day off from her job that pays her less per day than a random person off the street! But being away from her work means she has no private place to do her business. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_f517a6d7.jpg)

After the guests leave, the mess stays. Suffice it to say she had a red environment bar. She also picked up a nasty case of food poisoning that never cleared up, simply from from eating her scraps. That, on top of being pregnant... (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_3517bac5.jpg)

So, what could make this scenario worse? How about a late fall fire to tank her hygiene and comfort? (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_b517eb13.jpg)

Things are not going so well for Kara anymore. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_f517bb75.jpg)

And Calypso is born right in time for winter! I didn't have a medium skin for the Klan mixing, so I will change Kalypso's skintone as a child. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_7517d465.jpg)

Yet, despite everything, Kara manages to make a lovely introduction to mate #2. Lanse doesn't seem to be too put off by her greeting. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_7517f4f7.jpg)

Now, Smelly Tramp has never known hygiene, she's pregnant again,  a fire has tanked her aspiration, and she is food poisoned. Could life get worse? Why, yes. A seldom seen robber could come and take not only the "trash" in the ally, but her ballet bar, which was the only thing keeping her from freezing solid while guests were freezing! (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_7517df38.jpg)

 There still isn't a breast feed hack, or I would have waited to buy a fridge, and bought something else, instead. Kalypso should, in fact, be dead. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_9517da4e.jpg)

So... could Sim life get any worse for Kara? Why yes; it could snow. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_b517adb2.jpg)

Kara now officially hates life, and cries at a passersby for extra hand-outs. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_f517af12.jpg)

Kara is now a pregnant mother of a toddler. They have finally managed to buy a pot to piss in. Still, no bath tub. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_b517e61d.jpg)

I seriously fear for little Kalypso. She has become frostbitten from the cold, but Kara has enough money that she can now afford a little block of house. But things are still quite miserable. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_9517e8ab.jpg)

Kara finally manages a toy for Kalypso, but she finds it less interesting than watching her mammie be sick. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_d517eab4.jpg)

Here comes baby #2, Sirsa (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_7517e9df.jpg)

Welcome to the neighbourhood, little one! I hope you survive! (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_7517fa65.jpg)

Directly after her sister's birth, Kalypso transitions into a child. I give her a skin that's a better match of both her mother's and father's traits. I keep meaning to geneticize things... (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_1517ef96.jpg)

With another pair of hands, they save up enough money for a BATH TUB! It takes the place of the barrels that the robber took in the alley. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_1518037d.jpg)

With a little help from her new-found hygiene, Kara meets mate #3, an Ambrozian soldier. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_1517b2ab.jpg)

Pregnant once more! (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_b517f756.jpg)

They only have enough money to have the one toddler mat, so the newly born Hektor has to sleep on the floor while the now toddling Sirsuz gets the mat. The rabbit toy is the only thing that stops them all from committing suicide, as it is their only source of fun. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_15180369.jpg)

Sirsuz grows into a child. She's quite a handful, but now things are steadying out. She wants a lemonade stand, and she has the money to get one! Now the money is really pouring in, as someone is always there to sell lemonade to anyone who walks by. $$$$ (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_3518f887.jpg)

Hektor grows into a toddler. Kara is still food poisoned, but she can deal with things better now that they have a basic support system. She can't afford another bed for Sirsuz so she gets to take turns with Kalypso sleeping outside in mom's old leaves. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_b518d990.jpg)

Hektor's a much happier child than Kalypso, though it would be difficult indeed to be a less happy toddler than she was. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_35189fae.jpg)

And the challenge is over. Kalypso transitions into a teen just in time for them to be able to afford an instrument. (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/GhettoSuperstar/snapshot_d516ba87_352883eb.jpg)

So all and all, they only bought--
A double bed
A place to piss
A bath tub
A ballet bar (stolen)
A rabbit toy
A baby mat
A white owl
A refrigerator
A coat hook for clothes
And a drum made from a barrel.
They had $500 when she transitioned. Still, this potential tragedy ended very happily!

These are the one that apply to me, and I will add how I modified the rules and my score in in purple so that this challenge could take place in an impoverished, medieval city:
+1 for every thousand simoleans of the family net worth Bwahhaha! I had my Sim take the Peasant career from MTS2, which pays a juicy $10 dollars a day!
+4 points for each child born +12 I could have squeezed in another, but I have a larger plot to which I must pay attention.
+10 points for each sim that maxes out all skills With *just* enough money to survive, we only got enough money for a ballet bar. And then, that got stolen!
-4 for accidental deaths (by fire, disease, lightning, etc.)
-1 for each accidental promotion, including chance card promotion
-4 points for each child that doesn't reach the age of teen—you lose those child points from raising them if they die or move out.
-20 for each child taken by the social worker
-1 for each aspiration failure (when the shrink comes) -2 I had aspiration failure at red in during this challenge, so I saw the shrink about 5 times.
+1 for trashed aesthetics, arbitrarily awarded by me.
BONUS MINI CHALLENGES:
+5 points for never visiting a community lot, EVER +5 Why would you want to watch your needs drop even quicker!
+5 points for playing the entire game without a phone +5 Read "medieval"
+5 for never eating leftovers or storing food in the inventory
+15 points for never selling date rewards +15 No problem. No dates.
+10 points if the sim never gets a job
+15 for never selling/deleting anything, ever. If you end up with redundant skilling items, you are screwed, sorry. +15 I was too broke-ass to afford anything better than the basics.
+20 for never selling garden produce +20 I read this as ghetto superstar challenge, and the whole little lot was covered in stone. So, yeah, no gardens.

ARCHITECTURE:
+ 5 points if the house has only one level (floor). +5 Again, I laugh. I would have never been able to afford what she got had I not built it as part of her atmosphere and required her to have actually possessions before she could move in.
+ 10 more points if the house has ONLY ONE ROOM +10
+ 30 more points if the one room is so big, it has NO WALLS AND NO TOILET (a la EMAIL: -80 points if a sim has an accident!) About this-- I misused the rules here and made up for it with my $10 a day job. Medieval things are often cheaper in the catalog, and her first Bed was the CS leave pile at $10, for instance. Her only toilet was a invisible pee anywhere spot, and that came on her first day off, after her first accident) I also have had since it came out the ZOMG! period hack, making my planning for pregnancy really important and making Kara's comfort and hygiene plummet.

That was interesting, but yeah, 0 points for the actual challenge. Massive cheating disqualifies you. The social worker normally comes if the baby gets cold, and the objects you did buy were almost all practically free. You also cheated to let the sim get pregnant before she could afford a bed for that purpose. And what's with requiring her to start with possessions? And was she the only sim on the lot? Generally, you lose this challenge when your single sim freezes and there isn't another sim to warm them up.

I'm glad you had fun with it, but you don't seem to have followed a clear set of rules, just done whatever and then decided that it balanced out. It could be nifty as a medieval challenge thing, but it has to be consistent, not random sim torturing.

One question: did the lack of objects/gardening make it at all boring?

So:

+1 for trashed aesthetics
-200 for MASSIVE CHEATING

The only thing I have that affects warmth is wamthfixes, and while I was warned by a pop-up box, she must have warmed up before social worker is cued. I admit, I found that odd, too, but I did nothing to prevent the social worker from coming, hack or otherwise.


The ballet bar kept her from freezing. She had enough money to buy a 4x4 by then from all of her free styling, and being that that was just about as much a ballet bar, I decided to let the robber *have* it.

I wanted her to have what seemed like a "city" (ghetto) around her.


True. BUT HER JOB PAID $10 A DAY, so yes, I figured her possessions costing very little seemed right. After she got fired and was pregnant, all she ever had was freestyling to bring her through.

Short answer: HELLS NOES! Sorry you thought it might be boring; I guess my story failed to entertain. <sigh> I was too busy keeping everyone alive to care about possessions.


That's fine; I did it for the lulz and because it fit into my larger plot anyway. I was hoping someone else would find it amusing, but I phailed.

So I'll justly macro myself:

(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll123/mount_tazneen/saladfailft4.jpg)

No, it was entertaining. But it's a concern I have with balancing the challenge properly, which is why I wanted to know. I feel like they can get an awful lot of money from gardening (too much?), but I like the idea of it still being allowed.

Poor frog.

Well, gardening doesn't sound very ghetto-like to me, that's all. And yes, that would have been A LOT of money. Heck, WE SURVIVED ON FREESTYLE TIPS (though fridge cost 300, bed 200, leaves 10, etc.)  Now what does that say to you? Had she had a Maxian job, and used normal items, I would see the challenge in skilling everyone up, etc. I might just do it by rules with another family *if* I can still have a city with objects around my Sim. Because I WANT A GHETTO!

I've mostly been doing it with the lots they are next to, like putting them next to a dump I downloaded and some urban looking buildings. Then it's kind of like a vacant lot, or camping out in the city park.

I like the idea of doing it as a rural thing, too, though, with the subsistence aspect, and having them garden a lot to keep things interesting and give the sims something to do, because that was a problem with another version of the challenge. I want it to be hard, but still fun, and not have it end up with everyone meditating all the time (email) or just constantly painting stuff with the easel, or have them get money too quickly.

Ideally, if you do it the normal way, it does end up looking awfully ghetto, because you have a ton of sims in a very small space.

Do it on a 1x1 and build imposters (unoccupied lots) around it. Easy backdrop. Also, another method for keeping a sim warm is taking a hike. Obviously not valid if a baby-child is at home without another teen or adult to care for them.

I also noticed you gave yourself +10 for having no job, but she really did have a job. A crappy one, but it existed.

I don't see that I did, Zazazu. But I did fail to subtract 80 points for the accident. Hence, I still fail.

Oh, your purple words were your scores. Ok. I thought the whole list was the points you were giving yourself.

I used to use a mod from Squinge, feedbaby...haven't had it in my game for a while, so I don't know if it works with freetime, but its at the Sims2 Graveyard.  Go to downloads, find Squinge's name, look for "yateenkidbaby_stuff", and the files are there.  There is one for ladies only, and one that includes the gents as well (ewww!)

I used to have that, but I yanked it when BV came out. I don't know if it works-- though I'm pretty sure it doesn't. <sigh> It sure was nice-- wasn't even badly animated.

I haven't really played since BV, although I suppose it's legal with the tent. There's no rule about them, anyway, and it seems kind of stupid to make one, because it just makes the challenge more fiddly. Hmm.