More Awesome Than You!

SimPE is a piece of crap.

Starting around 0.50, it has gone rapidly downhill, becoming a bloated, clumsy monstrosity that chews up more memory than the game itself, and is nearly completely unworkable for any SERIOUS work.

And this is the last straw: Earlier, I was attempting to examine the neighborhood inventory record to identify a pattern in some garbage. However, the only thing SimPE would tell me about tokens was "---". No GUID display. No ability to edit the GUID.

Somehow, they had managed to break this feature, rendering the viewer COMPLETELY WORTHLESS, which makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE because this feature worked perfectly fine in the OLD version (which is now broken due to some Pets-related issue). This is like somehow designing a new version of a gun that omits the barrel, rendering it incapable of actually firing. How is this even POSSIBLE? I pointed this out on the SimPE forum. The issue was completely ignored, minus a snarky comment from that Xanathon buffoon, and I loathe that man.

Frankly, this has become intolerable. SimPE has effectively developed a stranglehold on the entire modding community, somehow managing to oust all the alternatives. It has become the only tool in the game. This is outrageous, and it has to stop.

I am sick and tired of fighting with this accursed thing. Until we have some kind of viable alternative, I am not going to be doing any more hacks. Who wants to help make some tools that DON'T SUCK?

Agreed. SimPE is becoming slower and slower, and less and less usable. It is a shame Datgen died... we don't have a real alternative now.

Time for DizzyPE?

That would be nice. I detest "Smart" software, too. SimPE tries to be overly clever and ends up just being overly SLOW, CUMBERSOME, and UNRELIABLE.

Here's my latest dev version if you guys want to take a stab at it.

What does it do?

Knowing Dizzy you probably have to compile it using a Bleasdale - lol - or a Dragon32.

Well I have been saying to Peter for some time that it would be nice to have the tool split out into smaller lighter versions that addressed particular types of creation.  One for the simantics code modders, one for the graphic creators, and a completely separate one for the people who want to edit their sims's surnames and relationships - ie the gameplay editor.

But I won't hear a word against Quaxi or SimPe.   That guy has done nothing but give, give, give.   He makes the source open just for this very reason so we can use it to make our own stuff if we want to.   You can do that without moaning about it in the process surely.

Looks like it just needs a Python parser. I'll try resurrecting mine and check it later.

That's the dev version of dizziness (the one thing I've been working on for 3 months).

Inge, when is the PJSE svn going up? I'd love to check out the latest code.  ;D

I don't really buy that one at all. I looked for the source. The only there was to be found was a "localization package". The actual source package of any version was nowhere to be found.

So, here is what I propose as the project:

1. ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING INSTALLERS. Did I mention I fucking hate installers? Running the program should require the installation of absolutely nothing. It should unzip out of an archive and run. NO FUCKING INSTALLERS.
2. No Microsoftian .NET/C# shit. This something should run in a REAL programming language on something that can actually be compiled!
3. This program should be "unsafe". SimPE tries its utmost to mollycoddle, and the result is that an atrocious and utterly nonfunctional abomination exemplified by the inventory and memory token viewer. I want to see more ugly hex numbers, and NO ICON SLIDESHOWS. Just buttons which might mess things up if you have no idea what you're doing. This should be something for real coders, not faffy recolor artistes, which seem to be adequately pandered to by SimPE as it is. Did I mention my absolute loathing of icon slideshows and runaway load screens?
4. Something that doesn't run like ass! SimPE *CRAWLS* for even the most simple tasks.
5. NO FUCKING INSTALLERS. Did I mention I absolutely FUCKING HATE installers?!?

It looked interesting, but I couldn't actually read the manual because it seems to be incompatible with Windoze and isn't a standard text file readable in Linux. Also it droned on about MORE FUCKING INSTALLERS. Did I mention I hate installers and installing things? Isn't there a package somewhere with all this shit that can be dumped in the directory? I am NOT installing some random thing that has no other use that will simply cause problems and clog up the bowels of my hard drive in garbage. EVERYTHING SHOULD GO IN THE PROGRAM'S DIRECTORY! NO INSTALLERS! That IFFpencil thing from TS1 had NO INSTALLERS. Why does everything need to be plagued with fucking installers now?

We should gather in the chat to organize something.

You could always just compile the latest pygtk from source, you know.  :P

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why wasn't this included in the file or related package? Shouldn't this be some kind of DLL I toss in the directory?

Python and GTK are about 20 MB altogether. I really don't want to mess with all that.

I don't see what the big deal is about installers. It's not altogether different from using rpm or apt.

Isn't that rather hideously bloated? Is it really necessary to have 20 MBs of crap just for what is SUPPOSED to be a small program? Especially 20 MBs of crap that will do GODKNOWSWHAT to your system by INSTALLING BITS OF ITSELF EVERYWHERE.

In the Good Old Days, there were no installers. Installation involved tossing everything in a directory and running it. When you needed a new one, or got tired of it, you simply nuked the directory and it was gone. Installers leave TONS OF LITTLE TURDS everywhere. I *HATE* installers.

The alternative is to write everything in C/C++ which takes about twice as long to debug.

But I *LIKE* C/C++. It doesn't involve any fucking INSTALLERS. It's fast. It's SHINY. Can we get a basic file-displayey thing I can start mutilating? Hunting bugs is better than INSTALLERS anyway.

I suppose we could whip up some core utils like tool sets. From the command line, it's no big deal. I'll have to fire up Bloodshed again...  :P

Oh, that would be excellent. Then I can find someone who knows squat about doing anything graphically to attach a GUI skeleton, which puts me in what I do best: Duct taping. If it can't be fixed with duct tape, it can't be fixed at all.

This would probably be a better way to do it for advanced users. Sets of simple tools are often more useful than the all-in-one type solutions most people prefer.

Given that advanced users are the underserved market here, as the present focus of SimPE is pandering to those who want to edit their neighborhoods, recolor their crap, etc., etc., this is most assuredly a good thing.

I think it would be easier for non-modders to have a less-comprehensive tool, too.  Especially with Rick Halle going tits-up for months at a time just when he's needed (apologies for insensitivity if it turns out he's genuinely sick).

And many a time I have wished I could load SimPE with *only* the PJSE filetable rather than opening all the other core packages, for a quick tweak of an init.

The PJSE project is already published at http://sourceforge.net/projects/plj-simpe  Let me know if I have misunderstood what you were asking for, Dizzy.

Pescado/Dizzy: I'll rip/tar that for you. :)

Edit: What the hell? CVS is a bitch. When's Peter going to finish porting it to SVN?

I've got the source zipped too, but I thought techies preferred to download from sourceforge.

Dizzy let me know what you want, how you want it, and I shall try to accommodate you.

Ugh. Sourceforge is a pain in the neck to download from, when it comes to getting actual frikken SOURCE. All this nonsense and strange Database babble. And lack of tar files.

Tar files indeed!  Haha if I send it to you, you'll get a .zip and learn to love it :P

Well I tried to upload it but it seemed to be about 100K too big for your filesize limit.

Inge, use rar or 7zip.

Here's the first tool: ls. It seems to work fairly well so far.

Peter has them already zipped for me to back up.  I don't have anything I can archive with other than zip.  I can email it to you instead if you want.

Let me understand this... ls is meant to flash up a cmd window for a second and finish?   That's what it did for me.

Inge, you need to be in a "cmd.exe" shell. Otherwise, these tools are kind of pointless.

I think I'll wait for you guys to get Subversion sorted out.

Crikey, why would anyone want to go back to using DOS? /me shakes head bewildered

Ye Olde DOSse Prompte FTW!

I'd never go back to DOS. But the command console (cmd.exe) is an extremely useful tool.

DOS is teh win. READ AND WEEP.

Anyway, I can do SVN, but CVS is a bitch. So I refuse to try with stuff like that.

Pescado: Strange Database Babble is partly _ME_ trying to get my head round it. This stuff hurts the brain.

Pes makes some compelling arguments.
I agree with Inge about Quaxi and some of the others that have contributed. SimPE's main problem now is it addresses too many things. It takes too long to load, and pauses inexplicably to load something or another if you happen to click on a 3IDR resource.
I will be looking at dizzy's work, although I also HATE command-line programs (although I have a few here I hacked together at one time or another, including a gmdc parser/component disassembler I use pretty often). I think there is a need and room for something like the original SimPE... a (.)Package Editor. I like dizzy's argument about small add-on tools. One tool to package, one tool to edit, and no tool to rule them all.
I would love to have a SimPE option with no bells-and-whistles. I have sped the process of opening and doing many things I do by copying the whole installation to another directory, making a new desktop icon and then deleting the plugins folder from the additional directory. So I use one icon for the full package with all tools, and the other for a simple package manipulation.

What we would like to have to START would be some kind of basic I/O library source. Something that opens, loads into a memory structure for manipulation by whatever tool this will be used for, and then can save it back out on demand. This would be a solid base from which to build a suite of no-frills tools.

Mr. Dizzy:
I get confused easily. Since I see a "b" in the name, I think this is the latest rev? (I'd hate to start finding the same bugs you already exterminated).
If you are going to do this, can you put the latest version somewhere that stays put?
Can a moderator help him make a sticky message for this?

<* Wes *>

p.s. I have written a line or two in C before. Maybe I could help.

I just want to say that this is an elegant little program dizzy has cooked up.
I have my head all wrapped up in a new plugins version, so I will think about what I might be able to contribute, if anything (certainly testing).
Given I can't contribute anything to the effort at the moment, I will refrain from throwing any suggestions into the ring (since dizzy provided the source, I could do it myself but for my other work).
<* Wes *>

I have no idea what it does since I'm unwilling to install 20 MBs of bloatware garbage just to run it. I still think we need something stripped down enough to run with ABSOLUTELY NO EXTRA GARBAGE and still fit on a floppy. Yes, I know, nobody actually still USES those, but it's still a good benchmark of good, compact code. Just because no one uses floppies is no excuse for making gargantuan bloated monstrosities.

Are we talking together, or past each other? Or are we on different threads entirely? (I do confuse easily).
What dizzy posted for a program could be put on a floppy 140 times or so. I appreciate the lean and mean sentiment, but if dizzy shrank it by 10% it would still be a whole 10K.
Now, it is far from a complete solution, and would grow some getting there... but it is written in C and seems to use only the standard libraries that should already be installed when you installed WINDOZE XP [eXtra Pudgy].
You'd probably need 20 megs of stuff to compile it, if you don't already have a C compiler, but it is a nice, small program, just like you ordered.

I think we're talking about different programs. Dizzy made two things, one of which requires about 20 MBs of crud to work. The other one is good and works with a standard C compiler, but I didn't see anything for actually writing.

C is crappy language to code in, but C libraries (as opposed to Java or Python libraries) are widespread. I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time coding a complicated tool in C, so it's no big deal.

Once I have the extract/create/append capabilities finalized, the ability to write whatever you want will be a trivial matter of coming up with some sed-like tools for the purpose.

It's okay, we don't need a complicated tool, we just need the ability to read crap, load it into memory, and spit it back out. Somebody can nail a graphically thing on it and I can then start working on the editing part. Any information you have on what the file formattings are would be useful. The SimPE people are not terribly forthcoming, no doubt to maintain their monopoly. And C most certainly is NOT a crappy language to code in! It doesn't involve migs and megs of random crap being installed, for one thing!

What I suspected... we were on different pages. Told you I am easily confused.

Well, if you're so inclined you can use the foundation classes or .net classes to make bloatware with in C++. Usually this isn't noted as being so painful only because the library bloat is already installed, anyway, to run your day-to-day bloatware.

I was curious how many migs you have there? I don't have any here because I don't have an airstrip long enough to land one on while retaining the wheels and general body-shape.

If you really want to eliminate the bloat, you should be hard core and program in NASM (as I have for many years). C is bloated next to that.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel.  All the library functions you need are already created and you just need to arrange it differently, leaving out the parts you don't need.

Basically just create a shell that knows how to read in a package and split it into resources and put in the hooks for PJSE or your version of it.   That will take care of most of the simantics-related resources apart from OBJD that Quaxi wanted to keep in the main program.

So, any chance we'll see a command-line version of SimPE?  ;D

If you'd like to outline how to go about doing that, given that I don't have the slightest idea what a PJSE-thingy looks like (and I find it missing a few functionalities for my taste, like blockmoves), go for it. As it is, I haven't even seen a complete PJSE source...nor am I messing with that awful .NET shit!

Looks like it, the way you're going :P

But seriously, although I can definitely see a use for specialised package editors to save the waiting time and memory load, I am not sure how convenient I would find something without any form of GUI where everything you want to do requires typing a command in.   That's why I never really got into disasim as a tool.

I will however have a talk with Peter tonight and try again to persuade him to make a simantics specialised package editor.

I'm hoping to get some sort of crudimentary GUI ala Ye Olde SimPE, but absolutely nothing fancy and NO FUCKING ICON SLIDESHOWS.

Well I will leave you doing it then, no point two teams racing each other for the same tool, unless you can think of a way to work together with Peter?  Though I think you'd irritate the hell out of each other...

Working together with him is possible, but I honestly have never met him and we have no real point of live contact. I tend to work in a rather furious, fast-paced manner compared to the way he seems to operate. This probably stems from a motivational difference. Most such people tend to be motivated by curiosity or interest, whereas I am motivated more or less entirely by rage. Pretty much every undertaking I have ever started, especially in the sim community, is brought about through rage: Something pisses me off, and I decide to do something about it.

I agree with you. SimPE uses way too much memory (with more than 3 copies there is no longer any chance to be efficient) and loads the whole game for no reason whenever you load it. WHY? why can't it load the stuff only if/when it is needed? why isn't there an option to just read some bloated things like BHAV names from a short table instead of searching the whole file table for it?

I gave up assembly language when the Amiga died (15 years or so now). The transition from BE to LE was difficult, but the biggest argument I made to myself was that the C compilers were so much better than what I had struggled with. So I never bothered learning x86 assembler.

But I still know when someone yabbers about how much better this or that language is than some other, about how it enforces good programming practices and any of that other stuff, I think to myself "Billy Sh*t". It's not the saw, it's the carpenter.

Nice metaphor, actually. If you look in your toolbox, you won't find 53 types of hammers and no screwdrivers, right? Well, that's what C# is to me. Python, on the other hand, gives you one good tool for each job you might want. Now, that's a language you can program in.  ;D

Python, unfortunately, is 20 MBs of huge, bloated, and unwieldy libraries that are not included. And no compiler. I might have been willing to accept a bloated 20 MB library if you had included it in the product, but to INSTALL it with a FUCKING INSTALLER? Hell, no.

Let's go with that C solution. How's that coming along?

I just finished the initial debugging on append, so you can now create, modify and rearrange your packages as you please. There are just aren't any convenience tools just yet (like rm) and nothing in particular for editing dat files. That'll be next.

Dat files? I would imagine currently the files are loaded agnostically as blobs of bytes?

Generic files with the "dat" extension (so you can simply "del *.dat" to clean up your folder).

get the PJSE plugins updated for Seasons.  He feels there would be too many balls in the air at once for his ability to juggle with them.   Then he'd have two lots of tools to update every 6 months!

However,  I believe Quaxi is looking at a way to modularise SimPE better so that there will be a core, some wrappers, and the plugins as a separate layer.  Of course he has the same problem Peter outlined - if he's still in the middle of that when the next EP comes out he'll be in a bit of a mess.   You know how the Pets-compatible SimPE took longer to come out than previous EPs, and that was largely due to a core SimPE rewrite that overran.

It's not just the modders who are taxed by the constant game changes with each EP, it's the tool writers too.   That's what's stopping most of them actually enhancing their tools cos they always have this 6 month deadline to finish that so there is a complete tool ready for the next EP release.   Sims2 is not modding-friendly really.

Anyway like I say both Quaxi and Peter are very happy for other toolmakers to reuse any source or dlls that they like, and if you need to know anything about the plugin code best come on over to the PJSE forum and ask Peter there.

I think the problem here is that there is just too many different "hammers", to use Dizzy's metaphor, in the Sims community. We kinda need to standardise what's going on here, and get a reliable way of importing/exporting Sims2 files that everyone can use.

DIFFERENT hammers? We only have ONE hammer right now, and that's SimPE. And it SUCKS.

Why did the first part of my last post disappear????

I was trying to say I talked to Peter about making a specialised code modders SimPE and he wasn't keen due to the amount of pressure on him each time an EP comes out - and one just 2 months away.  Writing a new tool would be a major project in itself and already on top of a full-time day job.

Well, that's the current production special for the "SimPE Must Be Destroyed" project, seeing as the Peasants would like to see their updates by then. So I wouldn't see such a thing as any additional pressure. Plus I have no life.

No offense to Quaxi and all the people that work on SimPE, but back when it was DatGen vs SimPE, DatGen wanted to be this huge be-all-and-end-all monster Sims modding program, and SimPE (then) was the small lightweight version.  I supported SimPE back then becuase it seemed the right thing to do.

However, I agree that smaller, simpler, faster tools are better than one big huge one.  It would enable functionality to be folded in much quicker, EP updates to go in easier, and so on.

Thats not to say SimPE itself should be destroyed - just that we should provide other alternatives for people.

I've been doing quite a bit of package/DBPF programming using PHP lately for MTS2... and my background has always been tool writing, so this kind of thing to make small tools interests me immensely.

Also, thanks to Pescado for giving me access here. :)

Yes, and due to starting small, it managed to remain on track long enough to succumb to feature-creep and bloat to become the monster DatGen wanted to be, but overshot.

Yes, but that's not as good a topic header.

Well, if you'd like to contribute some sort of source regarding package read/write I/O, go for it. Something preferrably in a real programming language that I'd actually have a compiler for, or can be translated into one. :P

Anyone deemed to be clueful automatically receives access on request or attention. This area is write-restricted simply to discourage the common rabble from asking dumb, obvious questions and clogging up technical discussions in the usual derailments.

I have been watching this thread carefully. It is all I can do to keep myself from taking Dizzy's code, putting it in a DLL and thinking up fourteen new things to make that will never get finished.
I don't see anything in Diz's code (or the task at hand) that needs MFC or .NET, or would be improved by using them.
Keeping it within the standard ANSI C/C++ will help keep feature bloat out, and help it stay portable to OS X and Linux.
.NET is the #1 reason I never wrote a SimPE plugin.

* wes_h goes back to his cave, muttering imponderable obscenities...

Peter doesn't like .NET either but I threatened him.

So how's our write library coming?

Yes, necromancy is bad, but Karybdis was reading this thread and told me that he's willing to help us decode any file formats that we don't know anything about yet, or ones that we need updated information on due to EPs changing the format. So do we have a list or something that we need info on? I know that I, at least, haven't seen anything about the TTAB format (0x00000054) that came with Pets, so that may be a good place to start? (Unless of course it's been done and I just haven't seen it yet. In which case feel free to suggest something else. :P )

Having general information on everything would be useful, particularly recently changed formats, such as the neighborhood token editor/viewer, which is by far the most horribly broken thing in SimPE, as it's utterly useless in terms of information given on anything that it can't be "smart" and try to cleverly identify for you. You USED to be able to work in raw GUIDs and hex, but not anymore.

I decoded the TTAB 54 structure already, apart from the meanings of the pet motive settings, and Peter incorporated it into his editor plugin.

Scroll down a bit for the more interesting part - the bits at the top are just the dumps that Dizzy posted, as I don't have a dumping app.

+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0100 0110 0410 2120 0008 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2D00 2300 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 FBFF 0500 0000

+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0300 6E05 0310 2120 0008 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 0700 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0400 0000 2800 1E00 2300 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 FBFF 0000

+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0200 6505 0610 0030 003C 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 0900 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 0A00 1E00

+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0100 3910 3A10 2130 403F 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0600 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 0A00 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 2300 2D00 2800

+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0200 0010 0000 2110 0004 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 6400 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 0F00 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0400 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 3C00 1400 2800
+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0200 0010 0000 2110 0034 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 0F00 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 1400 3200 1E00
+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0200 0010 0000 2130 003C 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 6400 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 0F00 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0400 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 0A00 1E00 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0400 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 2800 0500 1400
+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0400 0010 0000 2130 003F 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 6400 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 0F00 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 0A00 1E00



+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0200 1810 0710 2130 003C 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 1000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00
+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0300 0020 0120 0110 4034 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 1000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 0000 0000 0000 1E00 0A00 1400 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 1400 F6FF 0000
+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0100 0210 0310 0110 0034 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 1000 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2D00 2300 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 FBFF 0500 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 1900 2300 1E00
+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0200 0210 0310 0120 000A 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 1000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 2D00 1900 2300
+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0300 0210 0310 0120 0008 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 1000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 2D00 1900 2300


Above stripped back to end of first agegroup of first line


---------------------------------------------------

+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0100 0210 0310 0110 0034 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0000 0000  no human groups
0800 0000  8 animal groups
   1000 0000  16 motives in first animal group
      0000 0000
      0500 0000
         2D00 2300 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 FBFF 0500 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0500 0000
         0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 1900 2300 1E00


-----------------------------------------------

+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0200 1810 0710 2130 003C 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0000 0000  no humans
0800 0000  8 animal agegroups
   1000 0000  16  motives in this agegroup
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0500 0000
         1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00 1E00

----------------------------------------------------

+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0200 0010 0000 2130 003C 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 6400 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0000 0000  no human agegroups
0800 0000  8 animal agegroups
   0F00 0000  animal motive count for first agegroup
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0400 0000  four elements of 6 bytes in this motive
         0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 0A00 1E00
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0400 0000  four elements of 6 bytes in this motive
         0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 2800 0500 1400


------------------------------------------------------

+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0100 0110 0410 2120 0008 0000 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0000 0000  human agegroups
0800 0000  animal agegroups
   0200 0000  motive count for first animal agegroup
      0000 0000
      0500 0000  five elements of 6 bytes in this motive
         2D00 2300 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 FBFF 0500 0000


-----------------------------------------------------------


+ 0x54: 0000 0000 0800 0120 0420 510C 0400 0000 0000 0300 0000 7665 6E74 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0300 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0500 0000  five human groups
   0700 0000  7 human motives
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 1900 0A00  apparently always 6 bytes no count needed
   0700 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 1900 0A00
   0700 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 1900 0A00
   0700 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 1900 0A00
   0700 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 1900 0A00
0000 0000  no animal groups?
1420 1620 400C 0000 0100 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0500 0000  human groups
   0600 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 0A00 1400
   0600 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 0A00 1400
   0600 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 0A00 1400
   0600 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 0A00 1400
   0600 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0000 0000 0000
      0400 0A00 1400
0000 0000
2220 2120 D04C 0000 0300 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0000 0000
0000 0000
2920 2A20 508C 0000 0400 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0000 0000
0000 0000
3420 3320 418C 0000 0500 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0000 0000
0000 0000
6E05 A420 2120 0038 0600 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0000 0000
0800 0000
   0700 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0200 0000
         0000 0000 0000
         1E00 2800 2300
   0700 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0200 0000
         0000 0000 0000
         1E00 2800 2300
   0700 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0200 0000
         0000 0000 0000
         1E00 2800 2300
   0700 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0200 0000
         0000 0000 0000
         1E00 2800 2300
   0700 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0200 0000
         0000 0000 0000
         1E00 2800 2300
   0700 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0200 0000
         0000 0000 0000
         1E00 2800 2300
   0700 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0200 0000
         0000 0000 0000
         1E00 2800 2300
   0700 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0200 0000
         0000 0000 0000
         1E00 2800 2300
6F05 AC20 2120 0038 0700 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000
0000 0000
0800 0000
   0600 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0000 0000
      0200 0000
         0000 0000 0000
         3200 5000 4100
   0600 0000
      0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 5000 4100 0600 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 5000 4100 0600 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 5000 4100 0600 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 5000 4100 0600 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 5000 4100 0600 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 5000 4100 0600 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0000 3200 5000 4100 AD20 AE20 0130 003C 0800 0000 0300 0000 0000 0000 3200 0000 FFFF FFFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 003F 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0800 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2300 2D00 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 FBFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2300 2D00 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 05I got bored/ran out of time at this point...
00 FBFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2300 2D00 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 FBFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2300 2D00 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 FBFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2300 2D00 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 FBFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2300 2D00 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 FBFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2300 2D00 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 FBFF 0000 0200 0000 0000 0000 0500 0000 2300 2D00 2800 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0500 FBFF 0000 1300 0000 756E 7469 746C 6564 2074 7265 6520 7461 626C 65 [from 0x7F9C752C 0x81]

Hmm maybe I didn't want to do that.  Ok it can be summed up like this:

The 0x07 or 0x08 (at 0x4c) refers to number of entries in the menu in both formats

Each line has VARIES bytes starting from Action BHAV.  It used to be strictly 0x2EA in 4E format

Non-matrix data per line
------------------------
Format54 has has lost the 28 bytes that used to be the count of motive rows but has gained 8 bytes, comrised as follows: Just before the matrix data for each line is a 4-byte count of how many agegroups there are.



Matrix data per line
--------------------

Human matrix
------------
Broken down by agegroup.  The first 4 bytes of the motiveperagegroup says how many motive lines are in the matrix - which is equivalent to the highest numbered motive dealt with.  The in between ones are padded with zeroes if not required.

Each field (min,typ,delt) is still 2 bytes.


Animal Matrix
-------------
After the human count is exhausted there are 4 bytes (the rest of the new ones) that say how many animal "agegroups" there are.  After that it works pretty much like the human grid except there are an unknown 4 bytes after the motive count in each grouping



There are still uknown labels for the 2nd flags field in the non-matrix part, and we have no idea what the settings in the animal matrix *mean* below the motive/agegroup coordinates.

Anyway, it's beginning to look like you successfully destroyed SimPE.  There's no sign of Quaxi working on it any more.  I hope you have a viable alternative coming along to replace it!

SimPE has had a pretty good run. If it never gets updated again, it would still be better than anything else likely to come out. It would certainly be far better than that pathetic Edith crap, and Edith isn't even available to the general public.

How would you know how good Edith is or isn't, given that you don't have it?

Peter and I have the theory that Maxis are using SimPe nowadays.

Doubt it. Otherwise their code wouldn't still be spaghetti.

I read the wiki those Uni professors tossed together. The screenshots tell you plenty. Edith uses flowchart arrangements in place of properly coded lines. Then, to edit their "nodes" of code you have to navigate multiple pop-up dialogs. Retracing through your code is tedious work. To do unit testing is impossible. Want to experiment with some test data? Forget it. Debugging is all done with assert-style breaks while running a possibly broken engine.

Add to all that the arbitrary resyntaxing of each particular version of Edith with one kludge on top of another, and I can say without any shred of doubt that Edith is crap.

In spite of the necromancy warning, wes_h says:

Christianlov popped out of the ether and posted a program he called CL tool, which is pretty much like SimPE was around version 0.12. It has some promise.

See his post at: http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=257487

Lol I thought this thread might suddenly come to life  :D

Oh yeah. He PMed me about this a while back. It's good to see he was serious about it.  ;D