More Awesome Than You!

Not too long ago, I was talking to a friend of mine who works at Gamespot. The subject of The Sims 2 came up, and he got a funny look on his face and asked me if everyone in The Sims community was insane. It seems that Gamespot posted a couple mods on one of their pages relating to The Sims 2, which is pretty par for the course on that site. Like they do for every other game, they gave full credit to the creators, included linkbacks and all that jazz. Then, nearly a year after the files went up, my friend recieved not one, but two irate emails from the creators of these files demanding to know why they were not asked explicit permission to have their files reposted and/or linked to. This, he told me, is not normal modder behaviour, most of the time modders are thrilled to even get a mention on Gamespot.

I thought about it for a moment, and had to admit that this is a pretty common reaction in this community. People are insanely posessive of their stuff. In most modding communities, as long as a file includes a readme with the original creator's name and contact info, everything is kosher. Not so for the sims. Instead, every tiny mesh or recolour that is created comes with all kinds of disclaimers. I can deal with the standard "Don't upload my mesh or I'll kill you, link back to me" stuff. But then you get the "Don't recolour my mesh unless you have explicit permission, and then you can only post your recolours on site xyz, if I don't like it I'll ask you to remove it, and OMGZ NO EXCHANGE OR I'LL THROW A TEMPER TANTRUM!"

Lets get real for a moment, shall we? Okay, yes, you just spent a very long time creating your very special mesh. Horray! Lets upload it. Now, as far as I am concerned, you have set it free in the vast ocean of public domain. People are going to use it, modify it, recolour it, turn it inside out, and spit it back out. You will most likely see it floating around with someone else's name attached, and yes, no matter how you scream and pout, it will end up in the garbage dump of the exchange at sometime or other. It's no better for people who recolour or retexture, you put it out there and people will use your alphas, frankenstein bits of your texture into other things, recolour, invert, and turn it upside down, often with no credit back to you whatsoever. That's what happens.

So what can you do about it? Nothing, really. Making people ask your permission to recolour it or insisting that no one else can touch it EVER, EVER! is not going to fix the problem. People will ignore it entirely and still do it. At least when you ask nicely that people link back for your mesh, most of the time you'll still get credit, if that is what you're after. Mostly, I see this kind of behaviour in novice modders, but every once in awhile I come across an experienced modder who still has some weird complex about his/her work. "This is purple! I don't like purple! Take it down!" or "I didn't give you explicit permission to recolour my mesh, so take it down right away!" Okay, but this is my texture. I made it. I'm not offering the mesh for download, so why are you demanding that I remove my creation from where I choose to post it?

In closing, let me just say that I am not speaking as someone who doesn't know what she is talking about. I've had things I've made stolen and posted on the exchange as someone else's work. I've seen my textures and alphas used by other people without credit back to me. I've seen some of my stuff mutated into something I think is horribly ugly. People use my stuff on custom sims and forget to credit me. None of this is the end of the world.

Write up a nice readme file, stick it in your rar, and hope for the best. And stop whining.

*Disclaimer: This rant may not be reposted without explicit written permission by me in triplicate, and can't be posted on sites that I don't like. It can't be reposted on days starting with the letters T or W because I don't like those letters. It can only be posted on blue, purple or green backgrounds because those are colours that I like. AND OMGZ NO EXCHANGE!

This rant isn't directed at MATY or anyone at MATY specifically. I just chose to post it here because I didn't want to have to deal with people who can't post an intelligent response.

** I'm going to leave this in the Podium, on the grounds that I agree about RL, I think the Podium is much better.  But I make no guarantees about anyone else not moving it.

With that being said, I happen to totally agree with you about the way in which a lot (not all) creators view their work.  There's a lot of egomaniacal tripping, and I tend to ignore it anyway (not that I do much with other people's work).  I have only ever altered one person's mesh and I posted in his thread a link to here where I offered it for download.  I never heard one word about it, even though this person was sort of known for that type of behaviour. *shrug*

Anyway, good rant.  ;D

Yep, I agree. Maybe it's because the Sims 2 has such a large modding community, and many of them make money from their creations. Their copyright stuff bleeds over into free creations. I guess. Could just be insanity, though.

I didn't mention anything about pay sites, because that kind of thing is becomming more and more common with popular games. MMORPG players pay for gold and items on Ebay, and it's a pretty lucrative industry, or so I'm told. Microsoft started up that Xbox marketplace, where you can pay real money for game items too. I guess that's just the way the industry is headed.

But can you say that any of this stuff is really "copyright"? Maybe they made the mesh and/or the textures, but EA/Maxis owns the game and the engine and everything else. EA could concievably add a clause in their EU agreement saying that charging for custom content is not allowed, and then sue everyone who didn't take their pay sites down. (Not that they would, they'll just follow the trend :P )

When you set up a fansite, you are supposed to read and agree to their End User License agreement (http://thesims2.ea.com/community/approval_fansitekit.php), which states pretty clear that EA owns the license for it all in the end.

I do think sometimes the same thing.  I love XMSims meshes, but the texture colors on the reds and the blonds sometimes aren't quite right.  And usually someone has a more realistic recolor on MTS2 really quickly that I snatch up.  Best of both worlds I think.

I am particularly confused about the few people that make recolors of Maxis meshes and refuse to have them listed at other sites, or downloaded to the exchange *cough* (http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=137702) as an example.  I understand that there are some very complicated textures out there, but these are solid colors covering over other solid colors.  I don't know, I shouldn't even say because I don't make anything myself (too lazy, Pescado :P) but really.

Anyways, before I get blacklisted from creaters  ::) yes I think that if you want to make something and share it, than share it already.

Those end-user agreements may or may not stand up in court in the U.S. I'm pretty sure there's contradictory case law on the subject.

In any case, I really don't get why people hate the idea of their stuff showing up on the Exchange so much. Is it because the identifying filenames get garbled? Is it maybe an attempt to stop people from downloading files they might not want? People can do what they want with what little stuff I've made. I assume people will be nice and give credit if it's warranted, and I don't think that people who would steal credit will be put off from stealing credit by being told not to. What really cracks me up is when people warn against doing anything to their creations even on your own computer for your own use.

 :D  That's not one I've seen in a while, but I have seen that!

Yeah, way too many creators in the Sims community have taken their "artistic rights" to the extreme.  And the main problem is that it's infectious.  Every time a creator has insanely possessive guidelines, it continues to set the precedent that this is normal behavior.

Maybe I'm siding with "the man", but I'd find it amusing if EA started shutting pay sites down... some of them are ridiculous with their subscription fees.  Then again, if they can get idiots customers to pay, maybe it's not so ridiculous after all.  Except MATY, of course!  That $39.95/month is worth every penny!   ;)

In brief, yes, we are. Some of us disguise it well, and some of us are less paranoid...but we aren't all there up there.

That cracks me up too.  How stupid can one get?

liegenschonheit, I totally agree with your rant.

I have taken things from various sites, and completely bastardized it to my own liking, and even included it in a movie for public consumption. I've wondered if I should even include a credit if it's been so modified from the original modification that it isn't recognizable any more?

Let's face it, none of us likes to start from scratch if there's a template out there that will cut down on hours of work. And honestly, that's what I view a lot of custom content out there as - potential templates.

People who are into modding and custom content creation will probably be happiest if they do it because they enjoy it, not because they want to gain ego strokes from it.

I read this as: Write up a nice readme file, stick it in your rear, and hope for the best. And stop whining.

I completely agree.

Seriously, awesome rant. One rule. One simple rule. If you put something up on the net, it will get stolen. If it is really good, it will get stolen and someone will say it is theirs. If it is the sims community, this will happen in a matter of hours. Count on it, then get over it.

 ;D ;D ;D

I agree - and I think it all boils down to one thing:  selfishness.  It's all mememememememememe.  And I'm not singing :P

I remember when I used to make "bases" for cartoon dolls and started seeing them pop up all over the place under another name.  I just chalked it up to flattery.  *shrugs*

That seems to be a reasonable assessment.

Blah, blah, blah. Notice which site doesn't have any such policy. It's not cost effective for me to try to stop you, so there's no point in encouraging it by forbidding it. Besides, I don't give a shit. You wanna take my stuff and use it as a template, great. Hopefully you'll retain my anal-retentive standards of quality for your finish product, too. There's enough shitty stuff out there.

If these people cared so much about protecting their content, then why didn't they file for a Creative Commons license rather than just saying "Oh, you can't redistribute this".  Not to mention that these same people probably infringe on copyrights by posting screenshots from games, copyrighted materials in avatars, etc.  They only give a damn if it would prevent them from becoming "famous".

Besides, I'm not sure those Paysites are entirely legal anyway since they're selling copyrighted Maxian work.

Interesting rant, and I agree in principle that if you don't want to share your stuff, you shouldn't upload it. However, I wonder if part of the source of the paranoia is the fact that there are so many sheep in the community who wouldn't recognise plagiarism if it ran up and bit them. Especially on the exchange there are a lot of users who upload stuff which isn't their creation, and not only do they not credit the actual creator, they change the info to say that they created it.

This annoys me, but more as a general principle and from a professional perspective - I'll be dealing with these sheep, or their clones in classes, and they'll cry and accuse me of "ruining their lives" when I fail them for submitting essays that they cut and pasted from some website.

I agree, plagarism is bad. In fact, it is one of the things that I hate the most, being something of a writer. However, being paranoid to the point of anal retentiveness is not going to stop people from stealing your work and posting it on the exchange as their own. It has happened to me, and it has happened to several talented creators that I know. Honestly, there is no way to prevent that except not to post it at all.

Hence why I refer to the exchange as a garbage dump in my rant. :P

I take issue with this whole credit mania personally. Get over yourself already, so you made a mesh, or a recolor, a mod - wooo you are special. It saddens me to see some of who I thought were really respectable modders/creators doing this. Without the game you dont have jack so get over it. And if you dont want anyone to play with your toys then dont share them, simple as that.

I'd be more amused than anything if someone stole from us here. I mean, wow, our stuff is so cool you'd steal it just to weasel out of paying a mere $39.95 a month? Who would do a thing like that? Chumps.

I have been considering a coup d'etat of sorts, to oppugn this ridiculousness. While the idea of posting anything I make on a site I dont control unnerves me because of all the sheer stupidity out there, I think it would be kinda funny if all of us that make stuff (not that I make a lot) started posting our creations to some of these sims2 warehouses. The caveat however, is that we want our stuff to be distributed, cloned, edited, torn apart, recolored and uploaded everywhere including and especially the exchange. :P

Nice rant, I totally agree but there's another factor I'd like to comment on. The stealing part. I mean really, what's the big deal about it? Of course it's very unfair and irritating to see somehting you've worked very hard on posted somewhere and someone else taking the credit for it BUT we don't have to forget we are in the TS2 community here.

People download form all kinds of sources and I'm sure sooner or later people will realise which the impostors are and which the true artists. Try not to be insulted (I know it's easy for me to say this) but flattered it was good enough to steal.

And for the morrons that steal creators stuff and put it on the exchange as their own, what could they possibly gain from this? some "fancy" stars ont he official site? A few "OMG! BENES!!!" Those people are losers and tbh if I were an artist I wouldn't even bother to hunt them down.

I would also like to comment that I could care less who made what. As a download freak I would get me things 'cause I like them and i'm not able nor have the time to make them myself. Of course knowing the creators is good for a refference to get quality stuff or a certain style of content you like. Don't get me wrong I'm glad that are ppl out there that make all these things that make my game more entertaining and fun to play... but if Cathy smith doesn't do it then John Doe prolly will and the final product is all that matters to me.

Besides some should stop acting as if they are doing us a favor. I mean most creators get into this because they love creating and enjoy doing it and are happy to share what they make with others. If you are in it for any other reason just find another hobby. I know it's hard work but they wouldn't spend so much of their time unless they enjoy doing it. It's notlike anybody pointed a gun at their heads and demanded TS2 content, so some should stop acting as if it's such a burden and people oughta bow and reward with them and praise. If it's such aburden then quit, find another hobby.

All I wanted to say is that this is about a game and thigns should stay fun both for the creators and the users otherwise what are we spending time and money on?

Greets,
Kyra

The Sims community is indeed insane. Name one other game community where people are expected to pay for user created downloads.

I will agree the Sims community is insane. And frankly, I'm not too concerned over people stealing MY stuff, as most of my uploads are sims themselves (with the exception of a bit of custom content here and there included with them.)

I hate paysites.

I don't mind donation sets.

Popular sites, like peggysims, probably need the support for the extra bandwidth. Best thing about her site is that her free stuff is just as good, if not better than her donation items.

Yes, but in Peggy's particular case, she has more free stuff than pay stuff and she's charging too much per month.

I don't think this is what this thread was intended to be (because we've already had this discussion before about paysites), so that's all I'll say.

If Im not mistaken most of these "creations" (im not talking about the awesome hacks and fixes at Maty-) are based on maxis objects etc.  so technically arent they also stealing as well??

(http://www.piratesinfo.com/images/store/flag_images/Jolly-Roger.gif)PAYSITES MUST BE DESTROYED! (http://paysites.mustbedestroyed.org)(http://www.piratesinfo.com/images/store/flag_images/Jolly-Roger.gif)
Except us, of course.
YARRRRRR!

Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.

/me steals rohina's rum and puts it up on the exchange
 :D

*Why rum gone?*

You know where EA got the idea for Stuff Packs?  Paysites.  Yep, because you thought it was OK to give random people your money for objects you now pay EA for objects which should have came in an expansion.

Bah, there's nothing worth downloading on Paysites anyway.  Besides, there's a way to get into TSR and MTS2 using a free service that is used to bypass New York Times Registration.

But isn't the NYTimes free? My brain hurts.

No, you shouldn't. Thats why everyone's games are bloated, instead of being able to just use and share the same custom content across the board, everyone has to make their own so as not to step on anyone's toes. Do you know how many different black eyeliners I had that looked exactly the same? At least six. I'm pretty sure all that the people did was copy someone else's alpha and recreate it in bodyshop because they didn't want to have to deal with credit and asking permission.

Get over it already. If someone is that hellbent on recognition, just stick your username somewhere in the filename or tag the texture somewhere or something. There is one creator, who shall remain nameless, who really pushes all my buttons. He makes fairly decent hair meshes, then if anyone dares to recolour them he throws a little bitch fit and pulls the mesh from his site. He tries to rationalize it by saying that his meshes are free for everyone to use, but no one can use his textures or his alphas, ever. So what? If I want the same hair in blue, I have to make a new alpha totally from scratch? That is just stupid. He's even had temper tantrums seeing his hair modified in screenshots, where someone altered it for use in their own game.

What a whiny little bitch.

http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/7th/961139.html

This case is often cited in support of the enforceability of EULAs.

Regardless, if you don't want to share it, don't put it on the internet.  Sell it as a "stuff CD."

If Maxis was as secretive of their content as that guy, then we'd have TS1's Hacker Witch Hunt again.  People then complain when something can't be altered, and the fact that they should alter it.

I highly doubt his hairs were made from scratch either, they probably had a Maxian base of some sort.  Of course they EA take any action against this thievery, since the community would think they are "evil" and would stop buying their games.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for this post!  I have always thought this and I am glad that it was brought up.

I get so tired of reading about creators getting all pissy and then taking their creations offline because they had a tantrum.  If they are that uptight, self centered and selfish then I think they should permanently take their stuff down and go away.  My husband was a mesh creator for the original Sims game and he was very happy when someone would take what he did and make it their own and change it or make it better.  He felt that if they used his stuff it must be worth using.  He didn't have an ego over it and start screaming and stomping his feet and threaten to take his stuff down.  That's just crazy talk.

I appreciate all the work that creators and modders do, don't get me wrong.  I can't do it and I mostly definitely am glad that they can.  But when they come across as egotistical asses I could care less how good their stuff is.  I can do without it.

I totally agree with Ziggydoodle

If they don't want to share, they should sell it as a "stuff CD"

Oblivion.
The official site offers plug ins at $3 and the fan sites also offer $10 mods.

The Oblivion forums have a new thread everyday debating over these paid stuff. But apparently, people are still buying them.

And what is the free way to bypass NY times, MTS2 and TSR registration? Care to share? I need that. I keep forgetting my NY times user id/ password. I must have registered at least 5x and have run out of email accounts for that.

http://www.bugmenot.com/

Oh yeah, heard of that. Madness... obviously inspired by Maxis/EA Games.

$3 per download? I recall getting entire adventures of 10+ hours for free with Arcanum for example....

Oblivion has a FANTASTIC scam where you pay the $3, and the downloads don't work, and when you contact customer support they tell you to F off. Of course, it only works once per customer, unless you're a real idiot.

This sounds like a very good idea as reverse psychology has a confounding effect on people generally. I know the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but still... (I don't create, don't have time and am far too lazy.)

The interesting point liegenschonheit raised at the start of the rant about how a well-known publication got rants from some little worms in the modding community because they had the temerity to give information stunned me. As someone who has aspirations (writing), any notice taken of my feeble efforts would be well received. What's wrong with these people? Are they insane? It's a worry, eh?

Don't tell me you pay $3  ::)

Thanks JM for the link.

Not that I create much content, but what I do have I have licensed under a Creative Commons license which encourages sharing it and using it for whatever you like as a base -- with attribution.
I highly encourage this type of license to anyone.

Apart from write it down, save the confirmation e-mail or set the PC to remember it, the answer with TSR is just keep checking the free stuff cos what you want will come up eventually.  Or put something up there and wait.  If it's halfway decent you'll have a free day of downloading reasonably soon.  I've got 5 days owing for my willow walk lots and they're nice as a set but not special.

Actually, I would suspect the Ebay phenomenon of the MMORPGs to be more behind Oblivion's scheme than anything done by Maxis. People are willing to buy play money with real cash. They'll buy anything at that point.

In general, I agree with the ludicrous nature behind the way some modders 'protect' their creations, but I do take issue with the 'if you put it on the Internet, expect it to get stolen' comment. To a certain degree, that's true, but it doesn't make it right. I've spent a good amount of time in some artist communities, where copyright violation is a very real issue, especially considering many of these folks earn a living from selling character artwork and other such stuff online.

I'm picking nits here, since it's honestly not the same issue as with modding stuff for games owned by other companies. It was just something that jumped out at me.

I don't condone the theft, believe me. However, it is a reality on the internet. Stuff will get stolen, copyrights get infringed. It is the nature of the beast. It's why so many writers only publish portions of their work on the net, and why artists are forced to watermark their art. It sucks, but the people who do it aren't going to stop.

There are artists/creators who are rabid idjits about the whole thing, and there are thieves/hacks who are rabid idjits about the whole thing. Stuff is going to get 'borrowed' and used in other ways, most definitely. I think it's worthwhile to educate people on ... the etiquette I guess. IF you borrow something, or use something in your creation, credit where you got it. And the folks putting stuff on the net need to chill a little more. It's a middle of the road thing. :)

Hoho that was funny.  But it took me a bit to know what Maty meant.   And I just now noticed the "thanks" button on every post.  ::)

Have you noticed that most of the time the creator's possessiveness is inversely related to their talent?

Yes, but did you press the button ?   :P

Someone made a sim...


http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=175189

Oh for crying out loud.

Good grief.

And the idjit (I love this word) didn't even make everything!

"The hair, earrings, and clothes are by Simmergirl, and can be found here.
The eyes, blush, eyeshadow, eyeliner, and lipstick are by Helaene, and can be found here.
The skintone is an edited version of Lewis's skintones and can be found here."

And don't get me started on the misspelling of Louis' name! If you're going to credit an author or creator, for f*ck's sake, do it right!

Yeah I saw that. Its just out of hand.

And the man/woman whatever is not even pretty enough to begin with  :-\

Well, maybe Slashie thought the sim is his property because he made the appearance - features and that kind of stuff?  ???

uh...it looks like a woman..so how are we supposed to tell??  and this idiot uses all these  other works and acts like his shit doesnt stink.    >:(

When people's shit doesn't stink, they can walk round with their head up their own arses all day long.  ;D

Maybe the sim has the behaviour of a male but just looks like a female...or maybe just maybe it is a female and he has just written a back story.

It is a male, using clothing and hair meshes that have been converted from female to male by a website called "Simmergirl". Basically, it is a transgendered male, meaning that when it gets naked, it will have it's boy bits, but when it is clothed it will look like a female. Also, it will have the voice and animations of a male, not a female.

heh... so this guy still didnt really create anything new... :D

Yes, and if you are pointing fingers at me to imply I am not egotistical because I lack talent then sure fine whatever. But there are plenty of creators with tons of talent that dont feel the need to piss all over their creation and tag it with big signs "mine mine mine". They are happy to share, feel good about it and dont feel like they are being ripped off, snubbed, insulted or whatever if you recolor something they made, tweak it, improve on it or destroy it...

The point is for me anyway, is that if you make something to share then share it, dont put all these damn limitations on it. I understand that you dont want someone else to take credit for you work, but come on, beyond that just get over yourself. What harm is there in recoloring an object? What is the real issue with me sharing the file with my friend rather than dling it from some warehouse site? (especially when its free anyway) Why cant I tear it apart for my own personal use?

Besides too many people take meshes from turboquid and the like these days and many of them come with textures already, so for someone to rant that they made it and you better not look at it wrong is ridiculous.

This whole thing is ridiculous. But whatever keep on keeping on.

nectere, I don't think she was directing that at you.  I think it was a general question, under the response to you.

You're plenty talented.

Now, when I start making crappy meshes and recolours, I'm going to blow the roof down with my screaming demand no one steals any of my stuff, and if they do I'm going to sue the crap out of them.  :P

EDIT:  You know, I was reading this again, and I'm worried it came out in a way I totally didn't intend.  This was not directed at you, nectere, it was only a general humorous statement under my reply to you. :P  Sorry if it sounded like it was to you.  It wasn't, m'dear.

Yeah right.

Nectere, Blue called your stuff crappy. You better beat her.

I'll watch.
/me gets popcorn.


BlueSoup Edit:  Eek! Sorry, damn quote button is right next to the modify button.

Actually no, I think the reverse was implied. Lack of talent = no ego would be a direct relationship, not inverse. But, meh, whatever. I don't think it was directed at you either Nectere, just a general observation, and not really true. You can't make blanket statements like that about this community. Except for the fact that we are all completely insane, that much is true.

Pfftttt!!

heh, I wasnt offended or anything. I just thought he /she meant that if you were lacking in talent then of course you wouldnt be concerned with credit...like me!  I was being flippant...no seriously.  :-*

***Ok ok I didnt have my thinking cap on today, I am tired and this van is driving me to the brink of insanity...I feel very untalented right now. *sigh*


inversely - contrary

"creator's possessiveness is contrary or the opposite in relation to their talent" gah.

*fetches popcorn for herself and sodas to share with all*

Am I the only one who gets the munchies from debates?

In other news, I discovered that I've been ripped off. :P

On a lark, I went searching on Google for "may explode, leak, or catch fire". I got the expected results: Us, batteries, and this (http://ui.worldofwar.net/ui.php?id=1980).

I was naturally surprised to see that some utterly unrelated thing, World of Warcrap no less, had ripped off my disclaimer (which, in turn, was ripped off from batteries), but not only had they copied the general style and syntax, they had even copied the format and proscription against the non-awesome!

And guess who did it? Why, plugging the author's name in revealed it was none other than THIS GUY (http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=2040)!

What do I think of this?

I guess in this case at least, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery  :-\

Well I left a comment about why he was being so possesive about his content when he was uising other peoples stuff to create his MASTERPIECE....got deleted for being unecessary.....since when is a reality check unnecessary.

I'll join!

*munches on popcorn nosily.

Well he does admit to having a broken brain. ::)

I agree this community is insane regarding "copyrights".

A long time ago I made a Sim for a Lady for the Sims 1, I took her face from a photo and put it on to a maxis template. It looked great I worked very hard at it and was tickled pink when she raved about it. Two months later I got a mail from an un named person reporting that the said lady was using a picture of her OWN Sim as an av without my permission?!!

WTF? This was HER face? I replied in public that I had no copyright to another persons face and she could post it wherever she wanted or do whatever she wanted with it. From that day on I have not skinned for anyone but me. 

Copy right…without it the World learnt to make fire, passed on songs and tales and pushed our culture into what we see today; and probably to make bigger and better weapons…the good with the bad I guess. With it we would still be eating with our hands and living in mud huts, copying is how humans and other animals learn. Stealing and lying are human traits that the internet not just explores but encourages, as all us surfers are aware, so my thoughts on this are, if you post it you set it free, deal with it.     

Heaven forbid someone use a picture of their self-sim as an avatar. I'm not sure why they felt the need to involve you at all.

Fortunately, nobody bothers me with such silliness, or I'd be like "So what? What do you want me to do about it?"

Haha, I figured that "deleted post" was someone from here.

I thought this was funny:
http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=176332

Yeah, and/or sad.

OMFG!   :D

Pathetic.  People are just plain sad and well pathetic.

I've never understood the people who say you shouldn't modify it even for their own use. I mean, maybe if they hadn't done such a sloppy, half-assed job, I wouldn't have had to fix it.

Now my stuff, on the other hand, has no such prohibition, but opening it may cause it to explode, leak, or catch fire, resulting in injury or death. Also, it voids the warranty. So yeah, don't do that, m'kay?

Saying you can't modify something even for your own use is stupid, control-freakish to the point of insanity, unenforceable, and, most amusing with all the pseudo-legalese thrown around there, not legally viable. If you want to buy a Ferrari and paint it puce, you have that right, no matter how bad Ferrari thinks it makes them look -- and THAT is even something other people can see. I don't know what planet people who say "OMG you're evil if you modify something of mine for your own use" are from, but it's not Earth.

I always been pefectly fine with using the textures and alphas from my uploads ... most is Maxis textures anyway.

I just noticed MTS2 "zero tolerance" policy, this ends up being kinda of rant against then but MTS2 seens to been taken over by TSR, perhaps not in terms of ownership and staff but in terms of behavior ... perhaps saying this will not make popular but what the hell.

I am not going to pretend I do not get some ego boost when someone picks up something I did and uses it in any form but as I dont like jumping hoops I sould not subject that to others ... having people asking "can I please use your <insert name here> alpha?" is just a waste of time, both to me (since I have to reply yes) and to that person that have to wait until I decide to check my PM box or read atread.

I could also point out the hypocracy of double standarts that exist in the Sims Community were its seens to be prefectable alright to rip other games resources but not from other "modders" ...

As for the Exchange ... well I do grant one point, there are simply too many people there uploading without refering to the mesh required and I would rather the meshes were packaged along with the textures if they were seperated packaga files, right now the Exchange is a mess ... unorganized, uneffective and not user friendly at all, just like their BBS.

I have stuff in my car that is shameful...I can't wait until the French makers send me a mail/call whatever, saying -

"Please remove the London solider with the Sexy Boots and the Bearskin hanging from your mirror as it does not represent the French political stanch of "No Monarchy"… Plus those sunglasses you wear while driving said car look suspiciously like American seventies models, thus giving the impression that this Automobile is something that belongs in a Mike Myers movie, not something this super cool French company wishes to promote. And while we are on the subject, your accent is not up to scratch either. No French company wants to associate with an "Inspector (no)Clueso" image"

(Plans to add "go faster stripes and change the name to "The Sliver Hornet" (even though it's metallic blue ha ha ha)… in the morning just to see what will happen?)

Sod the Sims2 if all other companies are this anal this could provide endless entertainment…  ;D


Hell maybe I should take the magents off my fridge? ???

Exactly.  Thanks for saying it.  I have thought this for a long time.  The Nazi style forum moderation and all the policies and now a zero tolerance policy.  For the love of old ladies having heart attacks...WTF?

The people actually making the game, who actually have a copyright, aren't that anal. It's certain modders, who apparently have no lives outside of the game, who are.

You know, I cannot wait until someone bitches about someone stealing their lot ...

I am going to tell you were that "Sim Stealing" idiocy started ... The Sims 2 Community forums (AKA MTS2 forums), in fact if you read those forums and check TSR forums you be suprised on how similar they are.

Oh for fuck's sake...

This is rediculous. I am not anti-MTS2, nor do I think it is run by nazis. I think this is them trying to cover their asses and keep people from screaming about stolen content being uploaded. However, when is it going to be enough already? Don't people get tired of policing this shit all the time?

Well at least they included this little blurb
"Using 3d models from web sites and converting them without permission is..THEFT!"
Considering many many meshers use 3d models from various sites without any credit and almost always claiming that they themselves made the content and oh my gosh you better not breathe on it wrong... ::)

Once it is on my computer, in my house, I do darn well what I want with it. No one else is going to see it though, I just mess around with stuff for my personal enjoyment. I even peeked into JM's files, but I didn't touch anything. It was like trying to read War and Peace - in Mesopotamian.

/me has never seen Nectere's stuff, because she lost...ahm, misplaced...., no her cat ate the paper with the link, yes that's it... to Nectere's site.

Edited: because I have a question. What's with the "no exchange, under any circumstances, don't even think about it, etc?" That's not meant to be sarcastic or tounge in cheek, I'm genuinely curious. Is it a logistical thing? A pride thing? What? I read it a lot, but I would really like to know why.

Let me put this way.

I know my alphas are being used on other people work, I know my textures are being used.

Now imagine someone decides to use my white leopard bikini alpha for their own bikini (and parts have been used, I recognize then) but instead of downloading the from inSim were I posted they use then from another site ... now they did not create the alpha so they cannot give permision so they will point to either me or someone that also use it.

Snowball effect that makes people either give up or end up anoying so much that permision is not given so we dont have to deal with it.

Who suffers?

Anyone that downloads, the people that really care are from paysites that make money out of the game and those people are organized and vocal enough that NOBODY is going to use their stuff as base.

"Theft" sould be dealt on a case-by-case basis ... nobody can claim my alphas and textures that ARE FREE TO BE USED as theirs but I do expect some idiocy when someone will claim X stolen from Y when what was stolen was actually from W that allowed free use ... we have a lot of people that cry wolf and rent-a-cop in this community ... I speak from experience.

This just makes the process of uploading in MTS2 more of a pain in the ass and I am going to suffer from pain in the ass uploading there is TSR were at least I get free days, I upload in inSim because its just making a new tread and I am set.

 

Personally, I really don't see why someone would be stupid enough to recolor something without permission and submit it to MTS2.  This is the only case of actual theft listed there.

That's about half the 3d models on the site then, and they're public domain.  Essentially, you could use that stuff for anything including putting it in TS2.  Maybe this isn't so bad if they enforce it, the high poly stuff comes from Public Domain Meshes.

Lots should be cleaned of all CC anyway.  I don't get this rule with sims, since Sims2Pack files send all the CC with it anyway.  If Sims are just combinations of CC, what's the point of their submission if you can't get the CC with them?  As for modifying content w/o permission, Gunmod's Radiance Lighting mod would be dead along with a few other projects.

If they're recolored Maxian Textures, why can't someone just recolor it and distribute it again?  If they weren't planning on making a recolor for something, and made it CEP compatible then why can't you publish it?  Even if you did get permission from the author, it would still be thievery because it would be harder to prove it.

Speaking of Content theft, sims in LyricLee's avatar have custom content.  Did she get permission to repost that custom content?  I doubt it.

I'm a little confused on how to diagram that sentence. Does it mean using someone's custom content on your lots/in packaged sims is THEFT, period, or does the permission clause also modify that bit? Because if the creator gives permission for their content to be packaged with sims, I don't see how it's THEFT.

I think that mod called THEFT on people who offered to send a (free) item via email since the download page wouldn't load in their browser or something, too.

I don't mind people asking to be credited for their work, but I don't get things like this.

I don't think it's supposed to really make sense, it's just crazy.

I am also wondering the same thing as you! Does it mean that we can't get custom content sims/custom content lots there anymore?

 ???

Not to mention that the entire constant screaming of "theft" really undermines the entire concept of theft. I wouldn't consider it even a minimalist form of theft unless someone's actually claiming he made the item, and that still only qualifies as plagiarism, which is like the Diet Coke of Thievery.

Havn't any of the creators heard of the patents office?

TRANSLATION:
Using someone's custom content in your lots without permission is...THEFT!
Using someone's custom content on sims without persmission is...THEFT!
Modifying someone's content without permission is...THEFT!

I can only assume that the first two refer to lots and sims that you upload...because anything else is more stupid than......Retardo Landers after lobotomies.

Most people don't even care enough to get a Creative Commons license, sadly the only reason that "theft" is an issue is because someone believes they actually own a recolor.

I believe someone commented in that thread that "people don't realize that if creators don't get credit, they'll stop making stuff."  That's pure BS, do you know which factory/sweatshop worker made your clothing?  No, you only know the Brand name.  The Sims 2 Custom Content is your brand name.

I wonder if people would support a movement to allow distribution and recolors of their work as long as they're given credit.  I highly doubt it, since people are still hoping to become famous since they can do something in Photoshop.

Hey, I r teh famous!!111 I gets teh emails dat say "I <3 ur work! I am ur #1 fan!" I owe it all to teh Photoshop, lolz.

The stupid thing about most of this is that once creators get to a certain point, most of us could care less about redistribution with credit. Sure, upload it. Slap my name on it. Yay, now we all win. It seems, for the most part, to be a very "noob-ish" thing, this obsessive need for credit and calling theft on everyone else. I don't know what the deal is, but everyone seems out to make a name for him/herself in this community. Ironically, one of the fastest ways to get your content out there is to allow it to be used on sims and lots, so by screaming about it most new creators are just condemning themselves to obscurity anyway.

As far as I am concerned, it is not THEFT when someone uses my alpha. Should they have to start from scratch when they already have a blueprint? I think every creator, whether they admit it or not, use other people's alphas, at least as a starting point.

It is not THEFT when someone uploads my crap on a sim. Big freaking deal, so it has my lipstick, my hair recolour, or my shirt on. As long as the person who uploaded the sim doesn't claim that they made it, I don't see how this is even an issue. Slap up a credit, moot issue.

I can see why some people are a little concerned about recolouring, because in some cases all people do is open it in photoshop, move the colour slider a bit, and claim that they "made it". In most cases, they aren't really fooling anyone. However, I don't even see the big hairy deal with this, as long as they don't claim they made the actual texture. Again, the credit thing applies.

On the flipside, those annoying pre-teens on the exchange who steal from people, claim it as their own, then throw a hissy fit saying that the real creator "stole" it should be shot. But then, most of the people on the exchange should be shot.

I'm just tired of this whole issue.

 

Well the TS2 Exchange is not much diferent from TS1 Exchange ... I think it was done that way on purpose because it would force people who want credit to upload it there first.

Problem is its flawed since package a Sim does not include the mesh unless the mesh is in the same .package file as the texture ... perhaps Maxis expected mesh creators to add the mesh in the texture .package but when people found out the flaw they made the mesh a seperate .package file.

Credit always been a issue, I seen people quit because someone picked up their textures, alter then and claim they created then back in TS1 days but the "theft" seens to come from pay sites that, naturaly, dont want their *exclusive* downloads to be avaible for free ... unfortunaly "theft" nows covers pretty much everything, it reminds me of when kids learn a new word like "gay" and use it for everything without understanding the actually meaning of the word, only that is offensive.

This is just why I'm paranoid about sharing the celeb Sims I made. There are plenty on MTS2 already, and I was that happy with most of the Sims I'd done, I felt like sharing them. But to be honest I can't be done with trawling through threads trying to find the creator of the CC I've been using for so long I've forgotten who said creator was, not to mention his "disclaimer".

MTS2's policies have good intentions, but for above reasons it's a bit harsh. "Here's my Sims, sorry I can't remember where I got their shirts from, but they're not mine." Instant rejection, from what I gather of their rules. Bah :P

I pretty much agree with the first post. I personally don't want to waste energy on holding on to copyrights and running after people stealing my work. I want people to be able to primarily enjoy my creations and not have to stress about copyright issues. That's why I'm pretty relaxed about redistributing my stuff. I only ask that people don't charge money for redistributing my files, because it would feel like cheating against downloaders having to pay for my mesh elsewhere when they can get it for free from my site, and I don't like the idea of someone making money out of something that was created to be shared for free and available for everyone regardless of their paying power (yes, that may sound slightly communistic.). That's also why I politily declined to become a TSR FA. I don't want to turn a hobby into a business. I just want to keep things simple.

Incidentally, even though I'm very liberal about other creators using my textures, I have yet to come across anybody doing that *lol*. There is only one person who I know has used my original textures, and even he specifically asked permission. Maybe I should take it as an insult that nobody wants to rip off my stuff, then, because it seems to happen so much more to some other creators  :D.

I'm happy to see if someone has decided to recolor my mesh or use my creations in a lot download. That's what they were made for, anyway.

And, if I'm not mistaken, basically any recolor of a Maxis object is a violation of their copyright or whatever, since it was not created with official Maxis tools.

This is just why I agree with all that's been said: http://www.insimenator.net/showthread.php?t=17966

>:(

Hmph, I hope the original creator accepts his apology and it all just blows over. Kinda sad that someone should be feeling lower than a snakes belly because he unknowingly used her creation as a basis for his own without giving her credit.   ::)

Well you got to feel for the creator to. I mean you have this probaly small site and you look at arguably one of the biggest creators largest coliction of work and realize it as yours that must suck.

On the subject of MtS2, they don't even do what they say. They don't check the uploads . They put them up and rely on posters to finger print a person. I mean a month ago someone uploaded the pay air conditioner from simslice and used the same text (sans by simslice) in the post. It wasn't caught for days. I saw the picture and emetataly thought thats from simslice. I posted that along with a link to the item and it wasn't taken down and it was being complmented for another day.

And what the hecks up with the exchange bit? "if you do take items form this web site, and post them to the exchange without credit you will be banned." how are they going to do that I mean to prove that the person on Mts2 and the exchange were one and the same the person would have to admit it. How is that going to stop it?

 True, but the fact that he IS a big name, and has done the decent thing and publicly given credit to the original creator, I think will probably generate a lot of interest in her and herr site . Regrettable that that the incident happened, but perhaps something good will come out of it for the original creator also?

Sheesh. Some people can get so worked up about stuff. One time somebody took my work, started calling it theirs, and went so far as to start outright excising my name from the parts I had done. Mostly because he hated me.

I thought this was pretty damn funny.

I hate you too. Maybe I should try that.

I give up on MTS2 a long time ago. But when I read this, I was going "DAMN, why didn't I know the air conditioner is there?!"  
But they should be checking . My poor friend got her simmie (an ingame born sim) rejected twice. First time is her fault. She didn't put links to credit the cc. Second time she is also rejected because she didn't credit all the cc with links but that is because those she didn't credit, are dummy files born with the simmie and cannot be get rid of.

I think it is so hard to submit to MTS2 these days. TSR might be even more lenient.
The paranoia is unheard of in other gaming communities.

I don't think you can expect the moderators to be aware of every single creation there is out there, and recognize it. Currently, the object mesh uploads are not screened before uploading. Object recolors are screened, but mainly for quality reasons, not theft suspicions. MTS2 is doing what they say in that when something is reported for being stolen, it's removed. You have to be reasonable here and realize what's realistic to expect.


You're contradicting yourself here. At the same time you're asking for stricter control on uploads, and complaining that it's so difficult to upload there these days.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I was responding to moonluck. S/he said MTS2 is not checking.

I am trying to say that MTS2 does check and is careful about its checking. But now they are so strict that it is difficult to ascertain what is allowed and what is not allowed anymore.

The narration about the friend is just to make a point that they are very strict these days and even dummy files of Ok must be credited?  ???

To be honest, I don't even know if I can stil download 'furnished' sims and houses there anymore if I want those. The policy is not very clear.
It said it does not tolerate everything but what is everything that cannot be tolerated? Louis is file share friendly. So if I share her file on a simmie, is it allowed or not allowed? By Louis's count it is allowed, but according to MTS2's new policy, it appears to be THEFT!!

Ah, ok. Well, based on my understanding of the Creator Guidelines at MTS2, including custom content is OK if the creator of the content has given permission for redistribution, and as long as you credit the custom content in your upload post with links. I think the guidelines are pretty clear about that.

Oh, that's a shame what happened to beosboxboy (sp?)...

I understand some of the concern with proper credit to creators.. Overall though, I believe that, as long as they're not selling your stuff without consent, it's better not to get involved.. As someone who draws, and used to post art online regularly, I was familiar with theft.. It got to me at first, but then I learned to take it as more of a compliment... My stuff is worth stealing! That doesn't make it right, but I knew if it ever came down to it, I could prove my status as the original creator.. That knowledge gave me a relaxed status concerning re-distribution. The most I do for my sims stuff is slap my initials into the tooltip, and let that be the end of it. My Laverwinkle Alien replacement doesn't have even that, of course, but it's not a big deal.. If people take it, then they do.. If someone points a finger at them for stealing, then they will.. But I assure you it will not be my finger, as I have better things to do, so long as they're not trying to make money off of it.. Which I doubt.. If they wanted to make money off of someone else's work, they'd choose someone with more talent to steal from.  :P

Edit: Oh duh, right, I also put either DTK or DylanTK in my filenames... So that would actually be the extent of my self-credit, and tool-tip if applicable.

Where exactly is it stated that it's also theft when you download something that is against the policies?
Even if it is part of the rules somewhere, how will they enforce it?
In such a case, I'd say it is the webmaster's fault to allowing such files, as they are responsible for the website, not the user's fault.
 
You should rather feel lucky if you got it right in time - or unlucky if you got crap, who cares.

It seems reasonable for the sims community to reach a consensus on what 'theft' means in sims terms, since it's a global community and we are not all subject to the same laws.  If people don't like the rules at some sites, they'll visit others instead.

What annoys me is that a lot of 'creations' are based on, or copies of, commercial images and designs. I can't remember anyone ever giving a source for their textures, house plans, furnishing or clothing. The rule seems to be that if it's on the internet, it's free and you can copy, paste and let people assume you did all the work. However, copying from another sims player is a crime.  IMHO it's a bit of a cheek to insist that a copy can't be copied!

Good point, never even thought about that myself.

Hei, fellow Finn!  :D


Yes, claiming copyright on something that you stole from someone else (in the form of a texture etc) is a somewhat hypocritical.

Unless you plan on selling an object (or selling support for that object) there is no point in having copyright on it. That's why all my mods and such are public domain.

What? Me a Finn? Noo... that's just lies... yes, lies and propaganda! The underpant gnomes must be behind these horrid lies.  :P

Underpant Gnomes? Do we even want to know?

So, I guess your profile is lying, then?  :D And "Tyyppi" is just a random collection of letters you happened to throw together?  ;) Wow, the coincidence!

I'm going to use P2P networks as a basis for this statement, but downloading without redistributing is perfectly legal.  Many files using the BitTorrent protocol would be illegal to download though, since while you're downloading you're sharing parts of the file.  Same goes for Gnutella, but it doesn't seem to share as much from the swarm as BT.

Making derivative works isn't illegal in most cases, such as making a mesh that looks like a Porsche or something.  Satires are also legal.  The double standard in this community, not being able to make derivative works of derivative works, is quite baffling.  I'll be glad when this community crumbles under its own greed, but that won't happen for a while yet.

Yes! Exactly!


Okay okay okay!
I admit it all!
*breaks down*

*pats Tyyppi on the head*

It's okay.

By the way, I don't understand why using someone's alpha is a crime? The alpha is just the shape of the clothing. Why is copying a shape a crime?

This is very confusing for me...can someone please explain from a perspective of a creator? I really want to know.

And yes, I feel very sorry for the insim guy. It is not his fault and yet he is accused of being a thief. I bet he is feeling all stressed over it and he did state that his health is not good  :(

From the perspective of which creator?

I've made clothing alphas. I don't care what people do with them. It's not "theft" if anyone wants to use them to lessen their amount of work, and I don't care if I get credit for them, either. This community needs an enema.

I think the logic behind it is that making a new alpha can take a lot of time and effort sometimes, possibly as much as making the actual texture on occasion. So, in this regard, I don't see how alphas would be different from textures or meshes.

In the other modding communities I've worked with, you can take someone's entire mod and use it as a template without screams of "OMG theft waah!" People do give credit in those communities copiously and naturally -- which is very good since those mods really do take a lot of hard work, not just a few hours (tops) of screwing around in photoshop.

People in modding get so upset because the stakes are so small. When it's just some Sim clothing, the stakes are infinitessimal, so I guess that's why the hissy fits are proportionally larger.

I really, really hate the consensus on things like lots- especially for things like objects and wallpaper, in which case the creator can mark it as their creation, so that it always shows up in game as theirs- and otherwise, nearly impossible to figure it out. You'd think that would be enough, but no, they ant credit and a link in the post as well, which is pointless because everyone can see it is theirs, and if it isn't marked, that's their problem.

Plus, I feel like it is obvious that, unless otherwise stated, ALL content used in a lot comes from some other creator. It's just intuitive, and posting a lot that happens to contain their stuff because it fit with your decorating scheme. I mean, the idea that including someone's content in a lot means that you made it yourself is just ludicrous. Maybe people have this attitude from the exchange, in which you need to upload a lot to share objects, but seriously, on a site like MTS2 it's just stupid, and incredibly limiting.

And, what's with people who get all possessive about stupid things like ground covers? There are a lot of things that you aren't allowed to upload, EVER, even if you give credit- although again, the credit is in the description in game, and if you feel so strongly that ought to be included in-game too. If I have 3 gig of downloads, how am I supposed to remember the preference of every whiny creator who insists that their crap can't be used in the house? Or the ones that don't include any information at all- the creator doesn't seem to care, but MTS2 won't let you upload unless ALL the content comes with a link. And every once in a while when someone innocently forgets something, or doesn't know that everyone is crazy, the creator shows up, throws a huge fit, and the poor uploader gets blacklisted. Really, unlike stealing someone's mesh and saying you made it, this one ISN'T obvious.

...not to shit on MTS2 by the way, because this seems to be the thought in the entire community. It's just batshit insane.

I personally much think that any content creator that screams about credit and all that jazz is under some grandiose illusion that Maxis or some other gaming company is going see their work and come running to hire them or some other such nonsense. Thus the need to ‘prove' that its their work and how great and wonderful of a content creator they are.

Perhaps this is a real phenomenon based on the CEP fiasco at VS where someone supposedly showed a perspective employer a package that had credits to the CEP creators in it…I just cant for the life of me figure out why anyone would use a TS2 package as an example of their 3d work, its not like they had anything to do with the engine or the CEP program or SIMPE for that matter, just the textures and mesh basically - which you could show off quite easily in any standard 3d program.

But what do I know.

Sometimes I really hate how the creators of CC for TS2 are...
It can make the game less enjoyable at times that is for sure.

A huge part of this game is the CC...and being able to share things with others...however you can't do that when everyone and their momma is demanding credit for every single thing they have ever created, gave input in creating or thought about creating.

I think a large part of it came from a few whiney creators getting their way when they started screaming their demands and then everyone just decided to follow suit because it could quite possibly be the "cool" thing to do.

I know that I don't want to "steal" anyones work or piss off anyone intentionally, but I wish they could just do what they do for the enjoyment of the game and sharing it with the community instead of hoping to be 1) placed on a pedestal for their creations or 2) actually turn a profit on their creation. 

I see the point in wanting credit for your work, I do... but is it always needed?  Especially when it's not like everybody who doesn't credit you is trying to steal your work anyways...

There have been many times when I've wanted to share a house or community lot or something...completely void of objects ect but don't bother because I don't want to deal with a creator of the wallpaper I used or whatever getting their panties in a bunch because I feel it's stupid to credit every single wall paper creator out there.

Actually, I think whoever said that (maybe Rentech) was stating that as an example on how, heaven forbid, having the names of the creators of CEP in another person's package file is a BAD THING OMG.

Which brings me back to the issue at hand: God forbid some poor chump uses YOUR recolor of a Maxis chair in THEIR house. But if you use someone else's tool to make it possible, is it really a bad thing to have their names in the coding of the file? I somehow doubt the average user will look at the code itself. If they are really holding out for Maxis to "pick them up," then I somehow doubt Maxis would want to hire someone who is so clingy-touchy of their stuff. After all, once your stuff is official, it gets whored out to everyone.

I believe the a problem with the TS2 community revolves around pseudonymity, if people were anonymous then we wouldn't have such a problem with "credit".  However, other communities are pseudonymous but they don't have problems like this, and that just baffles me.  I'm sure there's 12 year olds in those communities that don't complain when something of theirs is hosted somewhere else, or someone makes a derivative work of it.  Maybe people in the Sims 2 community are so pathetic that their only self worth is in their content?

The way I see it, there's 2 main types of communities.  The first kind is what the sims community is based off of and what others are also based off of.  This kind has many individuals, which sometimes seem to act as one unit.  There's elitism, in the fact that people look down on newer members just because they haven't been there as long.  There's also "drama" which is created just because person X is mad at person Y and now Y leaves because they're sick of the policies of person X.  Person why then makes a statement that they're leaving and everyone whines and moans about how good this one person was to the community.  The source of these two problems are individuality, but having a moniker makes them believe they're a part of the community somewhat.

The other type is a lot less common in the United States.  It's the anonymous community, which everyone acts as one unit.  The boon of this kind of community is the fact that you're not attached to a username.  Elitism is effectively crushed due to the fact that if you're anonymous all that matters is your grammar and argument.  People afraid of defending the minority are also more apt to rise up because they don't have any reputation on the line.  Someone could actually see an argument from another direction and gain some knowledge.  Drama is also effectively eliminated since no one knows anyone else.  If someone insults you, you have no idea who said so.  You don't grow attached to anyone so if they're attacked you aren't obligated to jump in.  You won't lose sleep over petty arguments.

Of course, the Sims community will reject an anonymous style because they're obsessed with becoming famous.  It's a shame, because a lot of people seem to be sick of the drama and all of the BS with the community as is.

The other modding communities I've been part of and have used (heh) are precisely as "anonymous" as the Sims 2 community is, no more and no less. Also, there's always drama in any community on the internet, that's just the way things go. This crazed possessiveness is unique, however.

I think part of it is that most modders need to have a certain knowledge of computing, and of internet protocol. That just isn't so with making clothes or objects for The Sims 2, and so people start to look at the stuff they make as if it were a real dress or couch or something, since that is their only point of reference. There's also the natural instinct to follow what everyone else in the group is doing. So many creators have this "don't upload or I will get you and your little dog too" warning, other people adopt it and it feeds upon itself. The more people make stuff with prominent notices that sharing their stuff in any free manner is welcomed, the more the pressure will go the other way.

We need a very large jaws of life or something to remove the stick up this community's butt, basically.

Basically, mods are too damn easy to make.

Well, it's not really the modders that are the most super-possessive, it's the skinners, meshers, and the like. The top modders, for instance, at MATY, have a somewhat lax view of the entire matter. Our official policy is that we don't care what you do with it, whether you modify it, use it as a base for your own work, or share it with all your friends. Better your bandwidth than ours.

I use stuff from other sites/creators that give permission in my lots and I give credit. For example, I use some meshes, etc, from Pixel Sims (IgnorantBliss) who is very generous in sharing. So, I use her stuff and put a link to her site. People see her stuff, say 'hey that's cool' and visit Pixel Sims. Everybody wins. :)

BTW, Pescado, I altered your More Expensive NPC's to fit my needs. You gonna come squash me? Hehe.

I can't remember if people were this overly possessive in TS1, but I doubt it for some reason.  Pretty much everything that you needed to make objects, skins, and animations you had to download from somewhere else.  Sure, you could use MSPaint to make skins but it won't match up at all.  Now in TS2 we have Bodyshop, which is included with TS2.  This can make everything related to Sim skins, but you'll still need something like GIMP or Photoshop.

Speaking of Bandwidth, wasn't BitTorrent made to alleviate bandwidth by having multiple users share content?  If this is the case, then we should allow other people to share the content on their websites to alleviate said bandwidth instead of pumping more money into TSR.

Oh? What'd you do? More expensive? Less expensive? Fatter and more Reggikkolike?

I made the maid, gardener, and nanny less expensive. The maid and gardener were especially inflated, IMO.

Ok, here's another one where the modder's 'instructions' get really out of hand (from MTS2):

'I've had some requests for my YA dreamhair to be available in other age groups and colours so here it is for adults. Recolours are always welcome, please do not use for adult content, unblurring, sexually explicit situations.'

You can find it here: http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=181022.  Surprisingly, no one has commented on this 'restriction' yet....

So you have to 'change appearance' before your sim woohoos? :D I actually saw that earlier, and thought-how would the creator know what your sim was doing?

Makes me want to download the hair just so I can put in on a sim using Shaklin's love bed, take a bunch of pictures and post them.  :P

Good grief!  This is THE main reason why I stopped trying to make anything for sharing. I'm too new and not talented enough to do EVERYTHING from scratch myself. How much creativity is stiffled because of these attitudes? I can barely recolor stuff. I've started playing around with cloning and modifying things for my own use. For the most part, I've even given up on uploading lots - God forbid I might not credit someone who made a wallpaper or floor that I used.

Well, my stuff has instructions not to open, crush, dispose of in fire, short-circuit, or mix with non-awesome hacks, because it may explode, leak, or catch fire, resulting in injury and/or death.

Yesterday (I think - been a long weekend) on MTS2 a guy from Italy made his one and only post in one of my Brixham lot threads ... his only words on his only post were "is horrible" and it cracked me up.  I thanked him for making me laugh.

Yea, but at least you don't tell us not to use them when our naked sims are having sex in the hot tub. :)

starrling, when I get back to my game, may I put naked sims in your beautiful houses? Just thought I'd ask.

They ARE beautiful, by the way. I've got great plans for a Brixham neighborhood... :) I can't wait.

When I clicked the link MTS2 was down, it was just a hairstyle for the head right?  What about a hairstyle would provoke people to create adult content with it?

What a horrible person! I am glad you are not affected!! I love your houses Starrling. Very nice and lovely. I love small lots.
I have plans for a Brixham college!  :)

Hmmm...I think the guy is trying to say that his hair shouldn't be used when the sims are naked having sex and you show pictures of them doing so in his/her hairstyle. The sim ought to be completely naked and that includes a naked head. And no whores are allowed to wear the hair s/he created either ... ::) ::)

 starrling
I already have Brixham college and it is beautiful .I have all of your lots and love each one of them. So don't let this sod discourage you. He is blind as a bat ;D

I wonder if Shaklin has restrictions on what hair meshes may be used with his mods? I may have to go double-check my adult section...

Wow, thanks guys.  But after spending so much time on this forum, you do realize my skin has gotten a bit thick, right?  The guy is a turd, plain and simple.  And an Italian one to boot.  Hey... wonder if it's my Genoan ex-fiancee trying to get back at me for years past.  *maniacal laughter fades into the sunset*

I don't like porn, but I hate people like this. WTF is with being so obsessed with how horrific naked Sims are that it even occurs to you to warn people against using some hair you made while the blur is off? I'm an adult, it's no one's sodding business what I'm doing with a bunch of pixel people! What do people like this do, shower in the dark so they aren't corrupted by the sight of their own evil nakedness?

I bet their Barbies always had little panties and bras on :D

Good grief.

It's almost tempting to download it, do all that stuff with it, take photos, post them up and then ask him what he's going to do about it.

Some people...

Don't know why I find this very hilarious  ::) :P

Go for it. I mean, if they REALLY didn't want it to happen, they shouldn't have given you the idea. It's clearly their fault. This is clearly a reverse psycholergy experiment. Go for it! Do it! You know you want to.

Remember to put the pictures here too  ::)

you know we love nekkid sims  :-\

Bwah!  :D

Anyway, the Sims fan base is dissimilar to that of, say, Counterstrike or a DnD-style game with user created dungeon mods. It's dissimilar in that there seem to be lots more women. This can't be a coincidence.

The divine philosopher Plato was doubtful in what rank of living creatures to place and collocate them [women, Sims custom content creators], whether amongst the rational animals, by elevating them to an upper seat in the specifical classis of humanity, or with the irrational, by degrading them to a lower bench on the opposite side, of a brutal kind, and mere bestiality. For nature hath posited in a privy, secret, and intestine place of their bodies, a sort of member, by some not impertinently termed an animal, which is not to be found in men. Therein sometimes are endangered certain humours so saltish, brackish, clammy, sharp, nipping, tearing, prickling, and most eagerly tickling, that by their stinging acrimony, rending nitrosity, figging itch, wriggling mordicancy, and smarting salsitude, their whole body is shaken and ebrangled, their senses totally ravished and transported, the operation of their judgment and understanding utterly confounded and all disordinate passions and perturbations of the mind thoroughly and absolutely allowed, admitted, and approved of;
-- François Rabelais

Obviously some 15 year old boys in the Sims2 CC creating community also display this behaviour, which we will blame on the feminisation of society and homoerotic advertising. Yes, that's what we'll do.

Vector, I have to put up with that kind of shit at work all the time, no fucking way I'm putting up with it anywhere else. Walk to the edge of a very high cliff over jagged rocks, turn around, and take one step backwards please. Thank you.

The DnD modding community has tons of women, you can't pin this crap on us. Also, I'd rather deal with the Sims 2 community than the Counterstrike one any day.

Oh, I knew I should have said Doom. I didn't want anybody to think I only played a handful of games and was completely unaware of the user bases for most of them. It's my wandering uterus.

My favorite mod for a DnD game (Kivan of Shilmasta for Shadow of Amn) was written by a woman and it's one of the most interesting things I've come across. Much more interesting than Bioware shaky attempt at 'romance' for the female PCs.

That's because Bioware are men, and we all know what the male idea of "romance" usually comprises, I think. Good god! Did you ever play NWN and have a go of the brothel in it? And the cheesy meathead dude that you *had* to use if you were playing a female character, because the sexay chicks would just tell you to get lost? I felt like complaining to Ophelia about her house of ill-respute specifically because I was so offended at the lame gigolo I was expected to associate with.

Have you played Kelsey, by jcompton? I'm also really interested in Aklon, which BigRob says should be done within the year. I'm working on one myself, but haven't announced it officially because gods know when it will be done.

Vector: You will find that I'm nearly as nasty toward sexism against men as sexism against women. Bioware screwed up the BG2 romance for female characters (the fact that there was only one was ridiculous), but they have improved substantially. Also, their romances for male characters contradict your prejudice. Bioware is far from perfect in the writing romance and male-female equality department, I've complained about it myself, but they're a hell of a lot better than you want to give them credit for. Nor do I think getting angry at them for not including lesbian prostitutes in NWN really makes a bunch of sense.

Now, if "we all know what the male idea romance usually comprises" means candlelit dinners, backpacking together, sitting in bed reading Calvin and Hobbes on a rainy day, playing World of Warcraft together, moving 3000 miles to be with your girlfriend, and cooking together, to name a very very few, then yes, you may include me in that "we". If, otoh, you're trying to imply that the male idea of romance is just sex, not only is that a rotten thing to say, but worse, it's blatantly untrue. Men are not one monolithic entity glued together by testosterone ::).

I haven't played the Kelsey mod yet, I can't... get around the portrait. Takes it too far out of the game for me.

I am anxious about the Aklon mod as well. I plan on trying the Solufein mod as soon as I beat the game with Kivan. Then after that... I suppose I'll actually play the game with Anomen if I have to...

Anyways, for the longest time I applauded Bioware for their romances in SoA simply because they HAD one. I mean, the only other alternative for romance in a RPG was Final Fantasy. I always added the appendex if only they had three choices for the female characters too... I mean what hot-blooded Child Of Bhaal would pick the goody-goody 'O Lady Fairest....Dudley Doright' Knight over Valygar or Haer'Dalis. (or Cernd for that matter...god I love Jason Marsden's voice...)

Then they did KOTOR. (I haven't played NWN, so that doesn't factor in)

I replaced the portrait with a different one, that's quite easy to do. It's really worth it. I got to know jcompton a bit, so I can't play it any more (it feels like flirting with him, since it's his voice and very like him in character), but I'm very glad I did play it. He did a great job on it.

Someone needs to actually finish a Valygar romance. I should bug my boyfriend to do it, Valygar is his favorite character.

I know it's easy, I just don't know which one to use. =p

Do you still talk to him? Because he needs to get to cracking on that Haer'Dalis romance.

I had a falling out with a couple of his moderators, so I don't still talk to him because for a while I was too angry to talk to anyone associated with them, and then, meh. "Falling out" is putting it very mildly, actually. I still have one of them on ignore at all websites both he and I visit.

I probably wouldn't play a Haer'Dalis romance written by Jason, actually. I'm pretty picky, and I'm not sure his views about the chaotic neutral tiefling bard would be close enough to mine to let me enjoy it. It's too bad JPS has disappeared from gibberlings3, his version of HD looked like it was going to be good.

Yeah, I dunno about some of the REALLY over involved posts some people (at gibberlings3) were making about the Doomguard. Not really big into all the DnD lore, and all that... mess wasn't how I pictured Dalis at all.

I sorta pictured him as a preverse Empath that got off on all the unstable feelings he picked up from other people. Must be my Misty-ness showing through (picturing Bards as projecting Empaths)

I do like the DnD lore myself, but some of the stuff about Haer'Dalis got... really weird. There are a couple people there who are rather obsessed :P.

Anyway, we seem to have derailed this thread quite thoroughly. :D

Aye, that we did.

And there were a few... very scary... fans of the Haer'Dalis thread. I think that might be why JPS got scared of it.

All I know is that I am digging the Kivan romance. It was a very good start for modded NPCs for me, I think.

Yeah, I thought of that as a possibility too. I think he had some real-life stuff going on too, but...

And you'll find that I'm equally flippant either way.

Amazing.

Oh, I am sure. Real life got in the way of my fanfiction. And now I am so far off track of my mindset back then I don't think I could pick it back up. (I never was one for writing my ideas down first and then writing them. Never worked for me.)

I was throwing around the idea in my head for a NPC mod for SoA, but I have no coding ability. So, the character idea is up there, but no real plans for a follow through because no matter how much writing I did, I'd never be able to make it usable.

It's actually a lot easier than expected to learn how to code with WeiDu. If you can write and think in a logical manner at all, you can learn it, and it doesn't take too long. The main issue is the bug testing, wihch is a chore.

Yeah, I dunno, maybe I'll learn a new hobby. =P I just thought it would be cute to make a lil sister for Yoshimo. That would insist on calling him Yoshi-chan and driving him insane and then become the party's thief after he 'leaves.'

I would so totally play that. It would be a good way to start getting into modding too, a normal non-romanceable NPC is waaaaay less work than a romanceable one.

Check out tutorials, and jump into chat at gibberlings3 and/or pocketplane. They're really nice about teaching stuff -- even the people I had the big blow-out with were nice about that.

Heheh, I might, my first thought was to have her in the party after he leaves, but then I realized it'd be cuter if she was around more than that. =p

You'd be surprised how many people CAN'T. Their attempts to learn a programming tend to center around wringing their hands over WHAT PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE to learn, when, in fact, that's the wrong answer: Programming is not about learning programming languages. All programming languages are pretty much the same. Learning to program is a mindset. It's just like killing people is not about learning how to use guns or knives. Killing people is a mindset, guns and knives are merely tools. There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous people.

From what I saw, the dialogue bit of it seems easy. <CHARNAME> is for the PC and then there is a value for male/female pronouns and at the end of each dialogue response is a tag for the next dialogue tree. I'd just have to figure out the coding for banters and timing and such and flags for different gimmicks. Seemed fairly simply. I'd just need to write out the stuff before I worried about coding it.

I am mildly disturbed by what the twisted and sick mind of weird Jelenedra-people could produce. You have this disturbing taste for "fanporn".

Actually, no. Not at all. Wasn't aware I gave that impression.  :o

Jelenedra, do what I do: copy the code from other people, then modify it for your own use ;).

That's how I did my webpage. And my sims clothing. And my sims hair. Alpha-editing is a wonderful thing.

Okay, here's my take on this issue:

This insanity is the direct result of EA/Maxis's stupidity. Remember how SimAntics was the well-guarded IP that they would threaten to sue over? Well, they may have changed their attitude, but they attracted a lot of similarly minded people.

What was ironic was how utterly bug-prone their SimAntics code was and still is. I can hardly fault the programmers, though. Edith is what they're forced to work with, so of course their code is going to be bloated, inefficient and filled with logical errors. Edith is obviously complete crap from the design up.

That's not to say that Sims 2 is badly designed. The programmers who actually put together the code apparently built another design on top of Edith. Now, the high-level design is a pretty good one, albeit a bit complex for what it does. Where it suffers is from its dependence on SimAntics. A good example is the classic "jump bug" and the "fixes" they made. Iterative shared execution? Um, hello? Could we please start using cutting edge 1970s technology (preemptive execution)?

To make life even more insanity-inducing, EA cranks out Sims 2 EPs every six months. If the programmers had been spending the past couple years or so debugging, no problem, but it seems like they spend most of their time debugging the features they just added. Meanwhile, they post a "patch" on their web site which supposedly fixes the bug-filled features.

Now that they've had a couple years of this, you can add regressions to the bug list, which makes their work load even heavier. They're forced to ask their paying customers to help them solve all these problems. EA is clearly not being part of the solution here.

*twojeffs nods in agreement.  :)

I thought they actually rebuilt the SimAntics code instead of reusing it from TS1.  No wonder why the AI seems so stupid, among other things.  What I don't get is how there are more fixes for TS2 stuff than there were in TS1, is this because the code is supposedly open now?

They didn't rebuild anything. They started right were the SimAntics code left off in Makin Magic and have just kept right on building their tower of crap ever higher and higher.

Suddenly, things are much more clear.

You can't be serious. Preemptive execution? That would be essentially creating a multithreading NIGHTMARE. If you think the CURRENT system is bad, picture how bad it will get when your code can suddenly be punted in mid-operation, resulting in some other object fiddling the memory-bits you were trying to work with! Code would become a massively bloated affair of locks, lock-checking, stalling, and thrashing. Multithreaded scripting in games is a Very Bad Idea.

This is apparently why there's been a quiet move from SimAntics to this "LUA" business. Firstly, it apparently is easier to use. Secondly, it's not accessible to *US* at present, so they get to retake control of their coding.

Preemptive scheduling is the obvious way to go, unless you like the system of arbitrary Idle()s to avoid the dreaded Too Many Iterations errors.

I admit it would be a nightmare in SimAntics as is to simply hack preemptive scheduling into it, but that's only because they don't provide a smart way to handle data sharing between objects. And that's another issue I have with SimAntics...  :P

The "arbitrary Idles" is essentially your "preemption point" right there. Besides, how would you map such a thing into codes that obviously must be run atomically? You can't have the game just suddenly deciding to stop running a piece of code in the middle of an operation which really needs to be run as a single step to make any sense. Believe me, I've dealt with this in game scripting before. It's a giant mess when steps of code cannot be relied upon to complete themselves before something arbitrarily interrupts it to do something else. Most expert game designers seem to agree that multithreaded processes are NOT the way to go in games.

And now things are blurry again.

Quiet, foolish ElfPuddle. The real programmers are talking here.

*salutes, shuts up, and goes away*

Wouldn't selling something like this be strictly illegal? Or, at least, extremely difficult, as you would be launching yourself into the domains of copyright and other nasty legal terms.

*bleeds from the ears and eyes* Lord...

/me points and laughs.

Silly Elfie. ;D

/me points and laughs some more.

I take it that game experts are not exactly great programmers. Preemptive scheduling is a simple matter of organizing your tasks and paying proper homage to a finely tuned timer and refined port/signal systems rather than static variables.

But that is a minor detail, really. My main complaint here is that Maxis cannot handle the basic job of getting it right and making their code just work. If they existed, Pets would be a very bad idea. It would be even more prone to BFBVFS and cause even further breakage in my Uni dorm (which I'm currently playing without tables thanks to all the regressions and new bugs they've dumped onto Uni).

Preemptive scheduling is a matter of spending more time checking that nobody has sabotaged your data than it is about actually getting anything done. The system works when processes are seperate programs that run independently of each other, but anything that has to interact with anything else will end up spending a ton of processing time just looking over its shoulder making sure it hasn't been bumped by something else. The system is frankly not very well suited for games. It's nice having some kind of unit of assured atomicity to rely on.