More Awesome Than You!

Hey y'all. I will be AWOL for several days. Hurricane Katrina is being a bitch and appears to be heading our way. We'll be vacating the premises and staying with friends in Texas. Bah.

Anyone else along the Gulf Coast, please stay safe.

Good Luck To You!

Stay safe and take care hope to see you on here again soon.

Take care, been through a few and they are no joke.  Put your electronics up high just in case (I had my whole computer on one shelf of my closet in the last one I went through.)

Good thoughts and prayers with you, Reggi.   :o  I know what you're going through:  The week after we moved to Eastern NC, Hurricane Floyd came by to welcome us properly!   :(  Let us know you and the family are okay as soon as you can. 

You guys don't know how to build homes, obviously. If you're in a hurricane area, what you SHOULD be building is a reinforced airtight biodome. One thick enough that it can withstand hurled cars, stray bullets, cannonballs, etc. with no damage. Honestly, why is it that people don't learn to build appropriately in accordance with the hazards of their environment?

I wonder if this is the same one that recently caused havoc in Uruguay, where it was totally unexpected?  They aren't a normal occurrence there, any more than they are in the south of England.

Hope everything works out and your pc keeps safe and dry!

Well, I hope you stay safe and that you aren't very impressionable and watch the TV weatherpersons who stand on the beach and urge everyone to stay the hell away from the beaches.

One of these days these weathrpersons will get into something they can't get out of!

I don't know.  They're all a bunch of habitual liars, so they could probably get out of anything short of murder.

Over here in the UK they're just gullible and believe what the Met Office tell them!  I can remember listening to a radio weatherman telling everyone the sun was shining and would continue to do so all day while all of Central London was in the middle of a thunderstorm and the rain was coming down in buckets!  He obviously had a windowless basement office!

Well, we're back to a play it by ear stance. It looks like Katrina may be taking a slight northward turn. I've actually never evacuated for a hurricane and I've lived in the New Orleans area my entire life. I was around for Hurricane Betsy, the last big hurricane to hit New Orleans, in 1965. My main concern was my kindergarten homework not getting done. I did it by hurricane lamp at the kitchen table while the storm raged outside. Yes, I was a very strange child.

A direct hit by a Category 4 storm is worth getting out of the way of, but below that and I feel safe enough in staying. Of course, we live 80 miles inland and our area is a whole 15 ft above sea-level (Woo!). And we're inside the hurricane protection levee system, so storm surge isn't really an issue. The city of New Orleans is a whole other issue, as it is basically a soup bowl which is surrounded by water *and* is 10 ft below sea-level. There simply isn't anywhere for the water to go. My prediction is a Biloxi/Gulfport or Pass Christian/Bay St Louis, MS landfall.

So, I'm here until tomorrow for sure, anyway. If I do disappear for a few days, it's probably because we're without power.

We'll keep a look out for you!

JM, if I had the budget I would be quite happy to build a bunker capable of withstanding a nuclear holocaust (and then invite you over to inspect it), but I don't. I am broke. Poverty stricken actually. So, unfortunately, I will continue on in my crappy home that is very vulnerable to the weather (among other things). I would love to be better prepared.

I have the same problem with finances, but luckily hurricanes are not frequent here, just the tail-ends of US ones when they've crossed the Atlantic!  However, we do still get a lot of storm damage and some parts of the country where they've built new estates on flood plains have dreadful problems with flooding.  I'm lucky in that the city where I live is fairly high up, and also is networked underneath with mine workings so water has somewhere to go, but everywhere in the UK is getting wetter, so there could well come a time when whole areas of the country are underwater permanently!  And unless you can afford a submarine, you would have no choice but to move and before long insurance companies are going to class this kind of thing as an "Act of God" and refuse to pay out!

Actually, the homes in the New Orleans area tend to survive just fine. We have many 200+ year old buildings that have made it through numerous hurricanes. The problem is the water. Hurricane Audrey in the late 1950's left behind over 20 ft of water in some parts of the city. People drowned in their attics. As I said in my other post, New Orleans is a very soggy soup bowl. When that much water is dumped on the city, it has nowhere to go. There are massive pumping stations that constantly work to keep the city dry, but if the power is compromised, well, you get the picture. Plus, geography can work against the pumps. They pump water out into Lake Pontchartrain, which in turn, empties into the gulf, which is exactly where the storm surge will come from. Water won't run in both directions. In these cases, nature tends to win.

Despite the occasional threat of a storm, this is still the best place in the world to live. :P

The Bitch has strengthened. Over and out from N.O. Will be back when I can.

Best wishes from here in CA for you all to remain safe and well.

I'm sure the historical society in New Orleans would have no problem with that, JM!  ;)

We in Houston are thrilled about the hurricane...our hotels are all booked up with Creoles!  :D
Seriously, though, I hope everything goes well for Louisiana...I love Nolas (especially the window at Molly's and the gumbo at Coop's!)

reggikko, I hope you're well out of the way by now.  I just saw this thread and turned on the weather channel to see where she finally decided to head - OMG!

I moved to NC just in time for Fran back in '95.  The winds reminded me of a typical IA blizzard, so I wasn't too worried. (Our big problem was the threat of a tornado.)  And I live 2 hours from the beach, so most hurricanes don't wind up being very strong by the time they get here.  Last year, we got the remnants of 7 of the hurricanes that hit FLA and the gulf coast, and the rain, rain, rain was bad enough.  But seeing the storm damage on tv gives you a huge respect for Mother Nature.

I can't believe how big that bitch got in the last 24 hours.  Hope you are all safe and sound!

Good luck.  May my namesake not cause too much damage  :)

It's kind of pointless to have a historical society when nothing in the area can be more than 2 years old because it gets destroyed every other year.

In fact, I hear at this moment, the sea has reclaimed New Orleans and the place no longer exists.

They need to get some dutchmen over to teach them how to put their fingers into the holes in dykes!

I saw the "French Quarter" on TV a little while ago, and it looked soggy and windy, but the buildings looked okay for the most part.  

I too wish I had the money to build an industructable bio-dome!  I'd never come out!  LOL

The government is using this to jack up the gasoline prices some more.   >:( >:( >:(
Anyone else see this movie besides my Hubby?  
http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/oilstorm/main.html

More prayers and good thoughts for the people of the Gulf Coast.  Katrinia really is a nasty one!!  Hope you're okay, Reggie!

I thought about you, Reg, when I saw that Katrina was headed for your area. Hope you're okay. We've got tornado warnings going on all around us from this storm. It's pitch black outside! I am in Atlanta, too, pretty far from the coast.

That is no longer a good and decent phrase to speak in public.

 ::) Political Correctness annoys me.

Back to topic:  Reg, I hope you are safe. Get back in touch when you can.

Apologies, it really never occurred to me!  Maybe it's because I would never dream of using that term for a lesbian in the first place!

Not a problem to me, but some may have had one. I wouldn't use it either. I have had friends who referred to themselves that way (which always seemed weird). It is just one of many perfectly fine words I have had to expunge from my vocabulary because new definitions make the old ones impossible to use. Never know when people will be offended accidentally. For the record, I took no offense at your statement, and knew how it was meant, but noticed the double entendre and thought you might like to be informed of a possible miscommunication.

Oh well, poor Peter the little Dutch boy will have to save his village some other way!

(And if you happened to live in or near the Fens, I'm afraid you have no choice but to use the word in its intended sense!  There is no other that will fit the bill. I do wish people would stop hijacking words for their own particular use - if you want a new word, what's wrong with inventing one?)

When I was a little girl, I read a book named "The Heart" from D'Amichis, and there was a little boy who puts his fingers in the hole of the leaking wall, and saves  the town from flood. It was heroic scene, although far from being real. But I liked the scene, and remember it till today...:). I didn't know that there is a Duch boy too...:).

Kitiara, I don't think ZZ meant to offend somebody, or to laugh at the suffer of others. But when somebody mention "flood" - this is the first conotation you make...:), if you have read the book.

We all are concerned about the hurican and the many people who suddenly became homeless. It's terrible that the human race didn't overcome the Nature, in spite of all the inventions of the 21th century.

May be indeed we need a little boy to put his finger in the wall's hole...:).

I thought that meaning was clear. I was just pointing out a possible interpretation.
This side discussion has gone on too long. I think next time I'll just keep my big mouth shut.

Well, anyway, to return to New Orleans and other places which suffer from flooding, parts of the UK among them, most problems could be avoided by not building on flood plains!  With old, historical areas like NO it's understandable that a) people then were more concerned about easy access to the sea, and b) the sea levels weren't quite so high as they are now, but with areas which were until recently just farmland and have now been bought up and used for housing, it's just plain stupidity!  The British need to accept, like most other people in the world, that unless you have quite a high income, you can't expect a semi-detached or detached house with a large garden and should settle for apartment buildings in more crowded areas!  And the government needs to legislate more forcefully in these kind of matters so builders have to build the kind of housing which is necessary rather than that which people want.

Anyone Heard from Reg?

I am from Alexandria La.  We only received rain and wind but new orleans is devistated. In our city there are over 5000+ refugees staying in selters, not including those staying ith relatives. A normally small and borring town is suddenly quite larger.

Honestly being from here, i can not imagine rebuilding a city a large as new orleans.  Is anyone else on here from LA or MS?


LINDA

I watched the footage on Sky News and then on Fox News; the situation looks horrendous.  I pity everyone involved there at the moment.  A clean up campaign doesn't even look possible for now.  Hope Reggi is ok and has a dry, solid home to return to.

Meh, there *IS* no New Orleans anymore. If they're going to build something there, hopefully they'll have the sense to build it PROPERLY this time so it is not DESTROYED every other year. Why don't people ever learn?

In any case, at the moment, apparently, New Orleans no longer exists, and is now a giant ruin full of looters and rioting. It even sounds fun now!

Definitely an improvement, I'd say.

Well, I hope Reg is is fine and the pc has survived. Sounds like it was a real bitch.

We did have a hurricane in Birmingham (UK) about a month ago which was pretty awesome and left a lot of damage in its wake. Apparently, Blighty has a lot of hurricanes but they don't amount to more than a damp fizzing, and something with more destructive power is rarer than rocking horse shit.

I do not talk to meteorolgists unless necessary as too much time in their company makes me lose the will to live...

The tail ends of hurricanes often do their fizzling out along the south coast, I think.  I believe they sort of follow the gulf Stream across the Pond!

Yes, I am quite alive and safe near Shreveport, LA. Pescado, New Orleans most certainly does still exist and WILL be back. You don't know how tough and stubborn people are down here. As to the fucking scum looters, they will surely get theirs. AND for the record, New Orleans has NEVER, EVER been destroyed by a hurricane and it won't be this time. Damaged, yes. We would never allow our city to be destroyed. We're not made to give up, ever.

I do want to emphasize something on the looting situation. This is being carried out by a very small faction of urban project dwellers. For the most part, most people in New Orleans, black or white, would never dream of behaving in such a cowardly and despicable manner.

BTW, all indications are that my house is intact with no water damage. My best friend is still in the city and I have no idea whether she is alive or dead. I don't know if all of my family got out. Thousands of people have likely died. I realize that the spirit of MATY is very irreverent, but I simply won't be able to bring myself to return here and read smart-ass comments. Pescado, I know it's your way, but I'm asking you to please not make light of this situation. It's a nightmare for those of us who live down here. It's a horror that I've never before experienced and I hope never to in the future.


Anyway, I just wanted to let anyone who was wondering that I and my immediate family are safe. I have no idea when we may be able to return home. Anyone who would like to email me may do so at justmeinla@cox.net.

I am so glad to hear you are safe, reggikko.  I was actually concerned about you today as I watched the goings on in New Orleans on TV.  The gas stations here are price gouging and everyone is crowding into them trying to fill up.  One station closed down because they ran out of gas.  But this is nothing compared to what you all are going through.  I'm glad you are ok, and please know that there are some of us here that genuinely care.  **Hugs** if you want them. :)

I'm also relieved to hear that you are safe, reggikko and that your house is ok (as I'm sure many others here are too). I've been watching the news and I'm just heartsick at all of the devastation throughout entire the gulf area. I asked my daughters' vice principal today if we can set up a donation can for Red Cross in the office like we did for the victims of the tsunami. She needed to clear it with the principal first but was sure it wouldn't be a problem so it should be set to start tomorrow. And from what I hear on the local news you can count on as much help from Northern CA as we can muster. You will not weather this alone, I promise you. *hugs*

You'll continue to be in my thoughts and I hope you'll soon receive good news about your friends and family that you haven't been able to get in contact with yet.

Reggikko!
You have been in my thoughts for the last few days and I am so glad to hear from you and that you escaped the worst of the devastation.
One of the news bulletins here, in the UK, suggested that the majority of the looters were doing it out of need rather than greed. If this is true, then I can understand why they are doing it because I suppose that if I had a hungry family to feed, I would do it any way I knew how.
I hope and pray that all your friends and relations are alive and well.
BTW, how are you enjoying life without the Sims?

good to see you back online reggikko! I've been following the news too, it somehow makes it personal when you know of someone directly affected by disaster.

We had bad floods and landslips here last summer, that was only mild compared to the hurricane, but still distressing to the community involved.

I hope it's not too long till you are settled back in your own home, good it's OK.

blessed be

I'm glad you save thought about you for the last few days, when you see the devastation on TV you wonder how anyone can escape that, but the human spirit is really resilient,  I know they will rebuild that city again and make it stronger.
We don't have to deal with hurricanes up here in Canada, I can't imagine going through that.

I think really there's no truly safe place anywhere when it comes to weather!  But some places definitely get larger doses, and all at once, which makes it much harder to deal with.

And unless something is done to stop the rise in sea levels, I'm afraid it will get worse, not better.

Like everyone else, I'm glad you are safe and well, Reggikko, and I hope you've had good news about your friends and family still in the city.

I think everyone else already said it all, but I just wanted to state that I, too, am very happy to hear that you are safe. Stay well.

Add me to the list, Reg! Very relieved to hear from you.
It's such a tragic situation and I'm pulling for you and all of the New Orleans area. This is so unreal.

Ditto to what everyone else said, reg.  Was hoping you grabbed a computer so we'd hear from you when you had a chance.  Have been thinking about you all week, hoping you'd gotten far enough out of town and wondering what you were going to have left at home to go back to.  The traffic lines they showed on tv that were heading out of town made me think that a lot of people probably were going to get stuck on the highway.  Glad you got out early enough to be safe.

Hope you hear soon about your loved ones.  A coworker of mine has a boyfriend whose son is in Baton Rouge and he (boyfriend) hasn't been able to reach the boy to find out how he's doing, either.  It's unbelievable how much damage there is there.  May whatever Supreme Being you pray to (or not) be with you and yours.

I'm really glad that you're okay, reggikko.

I don't call that "spirit", I call that "stupidity". I mean, look at Florida. This shit happens EVERY FRIKKEN YEAR. The entire state is razed to the ground practically on a yearly basis, but they never learn and always build the same crappy buildings and wonder why they all sink into the sea every year. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Then again, how much do you expect from people who have problems operating a voting machine, anyway?

These people live in willful denial of the obvious fact that anything that happens once happens ALL the time, and you should plan accordingly. Remember: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Reggikko may have lucked out this time, but that doesn't mean she should get complacent. Start installing that pressure dome right now.

It's vaguely reminiscent of the kid's story about the three little pigs.

I'm sure a lot of people would like to build more resilient homes, but not everyone has the money!  Why else do you think people living in earthquake zones keep returning to the towns and villages that were devastated?  The only money they have is probably tied up in the land, which they can't sell, so their only options are either to live as refugees in a shanty town or go back and try to get on with their lives while they can.

And for people who live in safer areas of the world - it's not really their place to criticize, in many cases it's fate that placed them where exactly they are!

I concur.

Sure, the locals had been warned to leave the area in advance, but... not everyone has the means to afford to leave home for weeks. Someone just had to stay at home and cross their fingers.

Exactly,  and elderly people in particular often can neither afford to leave nor are they even capable of doing so without help.

I second all the well wishes. My heart goes out to everyone touched by this event.

Living in Australia, where we seem to alternate between years of drought and sudden floods washing away whole towns, with the occasional massive bushfire thrown in around Sydney almost every Christmas (I REFUSE TO SUCCUMB TO THE 'WILDFIRE' WORD THAT THEY'RE (THE SUITS AT THE METRO FIRE SERVICE)[/i] TRYING TO PUSH ON US), has made me rather grateful I live where I do, in Adelaide.  We're not as extreme as the rest of Aus, it sometimes seems.

So glad you're safe, reggikko.

You guys have no idea though, with my real name being Katrina, how weird it is to constantly see headlines telling me how much damage I've done.

Sorry to derail the topic a little... but you're not supposed to say bushfire anymore? Is that because of it's double meaning?

They've been pushing for 'wildfire' because it 'properly conveys the out of control behaviour of fire', rather than the 'romantic images' one conjures up with bushfire. ::)

It's had a pretty negative reaction, generally perceived as being an attempt to force an American word on the true-blue Aussie Strine lingo.

EDIT: The double meaning probably doesn't rate much over here given we don't really attach the 'other' meaning to the word bush.

Thanks for the explanation ;)

Re-reailing the thread now...

Well, it's certainly better than living in a freaking HOLE in Montana.

BTW, Pescado, you can kiss my fat New Orleanian Ass.  BASTARD. :P

I've been watching this with complete horror. I can't even imagine what it would be to live it when it's so heartbreaking just to see it on CNN.

There is very little I could say that hasn't been said (besides thank God I grew up in a place where we seem immune to such disasters, if any, it would be the city falling into the mine holes underneath it)

My heart goes out to you, I hope this gets under control soon and that you find everyone safe and sound.

Please keep safe Regg, we're all thinking of you.

Hi Reggikko - it's good to know you're safe.  :D Re: JM's comments, I would like to think that what he was trying to say was "thank goodness you are okay, just make sure you stay that way by building yourself a stronger home - or move to a safer area."  (That's how I read Montana-speak anyway). 

My blessed mother is from the Caribbean and grew up beside the sea.  When she was a girl their home was half a mile from the coastline.  Some 30 years later, after repeated hurricane damage, the coastline has moved up to less than 20 metres.  (Basically across the road and walk 7 strides, then your feet will be  in the ocean).  Having lived through hurricanes, (big and small) while still a school girl, she swears that she would never live by the sea and cannot believe the naivety of hoteliers that build right on the beach front. 

The house my mother grew up in was built by her father, and survived over 70 years of hurricanes before finally caving in.  It wasn't a dome, but it did have really strong foundations.

Reggiko how is it in shreveport? I am in Alexandria. Normal resident but you can go anywhere in the city and tell we have quite a few extra people.  Have you thought about any longer term plans, with then reporting that that will be months until residents can even come back to clean up.

 ;D   Chalk one up for Reggikko.

Anyway. We are all glad to hear from you and know that you are safe. I would theorize that Pescado is just the gruff kind of person that insults people he likes. But I won't say that, because I could be wrong, and then he might kick me and rip my lips off, again.

While I don't expect to see him agree here, I like your interpretation and think it's probably fairly accurate.

Well, yeah, every city in America is like that (I live in Houston, so every building's life capacity is measured in minutes), except New Orleans (well, a great deal of it anyway). :D

Regg, I think Nolas is the best city on the planet!  I know you guys will recover, and when you do, I'm gonna fly my happy ass over, get a room at Monteleone, and sit at the Chart Room to people watch!

You're in my thoughts, Creoles... :-*


Woohoo, post #100 for me!

Reggikko I am really glad to hear that you made it to safety. I could not fathom living through this scenario.   My thoughts are with you and your family.  I had a close friend that barely made it out and still does not know what has happened to family members that she was separated from.  My friends and I have her heading here for shelter. 

Morgan Freeman was talking about some relief effort he was setting up and said that you shouldn't sit and try to think of ways to help you should just stand up and do it.  I was sitting here watching the news crying and thought that that was exactly what I was doing, wanting to help but not really doing anything.  So I called one of my company owners (we have a distribution dept.) and asked that if I could raised finiacial aid, get water and get any other necessities donated would she donate a truck to take it down.  She's donating as many tractor trailers trucks as I can fill.  We currently have a fleet of 8.  She also promised to help me call radio stations and local wholesale businesses to solicit donations.  Also I am the artist for the Naval Aviation Monument here, so I called the Admiral and asked if he can get the local bases to donate any RMEs and maybe get in touch with someone at the national guard that can help my drivers distribute these items without causing riots.  He pledged his support and the support of the committee which includes retired master chiefs, other admirals and many high ranking retired Naval officers.

I hope that this blossoms into something huge and I can fill all those trucks and get them down there in time to help.  I just wanted to let you know that people do care and are truly heart broken over what has happened.  I really hope that something that I do here will benefit you and your family.

If you want to contact me personally, please send me a message through this forum or my GB on the BBS (themythchick1969) and I will respond to your email address or give you mine.

Sincerely,
Crista

Themythchick - Bravo!

That's all I can say.
Whether your efforts turn into a huge endeavor, or a small piece of a larger picture, feel proud of your efforts! I am one of those sitting on the sidelines feeling horrrified and helpless to do anything. I commend you.

If there's one thing I have learned it is that you should never lose your sense of humour, no matter what is happening.  Otherwise, you are paralysed by all the suffering that happens in the world on a daily basis, whether it's on the news or not, whether it's in your own neighbourhood or in another country.

As I probably should have pointed out, when the proper amount of energy and money is invested in making buildings (or entire cities for that matter) resistant to the elements, it pays dividends.  Certainly I'm not making fun of the people who are, even now, fighting for survival without enough food and water to go around.  Rather, I'm saying that when we get complacent and aren't expecting (or are prepared for) a disaster to strike, Sod's law says it will.

I often do feel paralysed by the suffering in the world. Sometimes I become quite insular and don't read the news, too much news, too fast, mostly bad. When I was following the hurricane Katrina I read about the stampede in Iraq, poor bastards, like they haven't enough to deal with. The dead are mostly women, children and elderly. I've never learned to be hard about others' suffering. I can use black humour, but still feel for the tragedy.

I'm glad your ok Reg and I hope things are back to normal for you as soon as they can be.

What's happening in the gulf coast is tragic.  The major problem was the levies breaking.  Everyone knew that they could go but all thought that something that bad could never happen to them.  Because they broke, it will be years before New Orleans is back to the way it was.  More than half of the buildings in NO will have to be torn down because of the damage and flooding.

In time's like these, you get the best of people and the worst of people.  The problem is, the worst of people is more newsworthy.  Right now, you aren't hearing about all of the hoards of individuals that are desending on the area trying to help any way they can.  What you read and see on TV are the stories about the looters, the anarchy, and all the bad things that are going on. 

Yes, everyone was caught unprepared, city, state and federal leaders.  Assigning blame at this point is useless.  What happened, happened.  The focus now needs to be the welfare of the people in the area and getting help to them as soon as possible.

Indeed. I've stopped watching the news. My dad watches CNN every night, when he gets home from work (Why? I don't know. He already gets enough of it while he's on the job, as he's a retired Coastie who now works as a civilian for the part of the Coast Guard that does water-borne pollution cleanup for Superfund, so he's been spending the last couple of days co-ordinating with FEMA and getting disaster relief and cleanup teams into New Orleans.) and I just head upstairs and turn on some music. I read the paper cover to cover, but TV coverage is not good for my depression. I get very nihilistic when massive environmentally-related disasters hit and all the news and politician people start screeching for more of the same.

Papers and reports from my dad and his friends are good, though, and I can't really avoid them. Once a Coast Guard brat, always a Coast Guard brat. I'm very glad you got out, Reggikko, and glad that everyone else who has gotten out has done so. There are sharks in the water! Not many, but a few, washed in from the Gulf. (I don't think the press knows about it, but if anyone sees anything about it on the news, it's not just reporters exagerating.) And toxic chemicals, and oil, because things like drycleaning products and gas tanks are all above ground in New Orleans, and thus just get sort of washed away. And toxic household chemicals, too. I think I'll stop now.

It's a nasty situation down there, but I'd be very much surprised if New Orleans actually rolled over and died. Badly wounded? Yes. Dead? Far from it. Those people are insane. (In a good way, of course.)

I agree you need to keep your sense of humour, but you should not exercise it in joking about tragic situations!  Joke about anything else, but not that, it causes even more distress to those who are victims of that situation!

While I have a few minutes (a rare occurence lately), I'll post about what we are doing on my end. My University is gearing up to receive students from the Gulf Coast that have lost their Unversities and Colleges so that they can at least have a place to continue their studies and have a place to stay - in short trying to normalize a horrible situation. We (the counseling department) are getting ready to take them under our wings, the problems these students have will unfortunately make the trip with them. We are worried about Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and Survivor's Guilt, which usually kicks in when a hellish situation stabilizes.

I have been in touch with Reg; she is physically fine, as is her immediate family, but she has a deep love for New Orleans and is devastated by the ever increasing disastrous news. New Orleans is not only a place to live, but rich with history, deep community ties, and a source of pride for many. It is her home, her love, and her history; to suggest abandonment is tantamount to loosing past, present, and future.

Reg's worry is for the many that have lost absolutely everything, and her suggestion to give what you can to the Red Cross should be passed on. Just beware of the scum of the earth scam artists that seem to be crawling out of the woodwork to enrich themselves on human misery. Personally, I am getting ready for a yard sale this weekend. All the proceeds will go directly to the Red Cross; at least all the stuff accumulated over time will be put to good use.

Criminally fraudulent profiteering from situations like this should carry double the normal penalty, I think!

I agree completely ZZ, especially when one considers that the beneficiaries of the genuine aid are human beings that have lost absolutely everything but their life. The more helpless such as babies, children, the people with disabillities and the elderly are particularly in dire straits, and every penny scammed or stolen means more hardship for that part of the stricken population.

I was just over at MTS2 and notice they have a link there to the Red Cross Website, but the minimum donation button is 25$, which is more than a lot of people can afford.  Makes me wonder whether a collection with a smaller donation amount, like 5$, could be started and then the total donated in one go?  After all, if five people donate 5$, that's 25$ the Red Cross wouldn't have had otherwise.

Reggie,
I haven't posted recently because I'm back on dialup (ugh) and haven't used the internet much, but I have been following this and thinking of you.  I'm glad you are ok.  This blows my mind...I hope y'all can bounce back sooner than the news is making it sound like.

Well, it certainly sounds like some of your government officials have taken their time in getting things moving, from what I read.  I just hope that now your president has finally got involved that things will speed up a little, and those people who've managed to cling on to life up to now will all be rescued in time!

Friday , September 02, 2005 @ 01:34 pm
Hurricane Update:

My elderly aunt and uncle who live in St Bernard Parish (which is completely under water) have not been heard from. I also have cousins in that area that haven't been heard from.

Another cousin, who lives in a rural area about 75 miles from New Orleans, lost his home to a fire after a tree knocked a power line onto his roof. They lost everything.

Slowly, I am finding out information about some family, but many are unaccounted for. Senator David Vitter has said that he expects the death toll in Louisiana to surpass the 10,000 mark.

This is a nightmare. It's worse than anything that I could imagine. It's hard to believe that in the richest nation in the world that help was not gotten to these people sooner. From the bottom of my heart, I thank all who have sent their thoughts and prayers and support.
 
About Pescado....I truly take no offense at his remarks. I know it is just his way. I was a bit emotionally raw when I first responded. So, all's well, Fishman. You know that.

Long-term, we will go home as soon as we are allowed. We live in the northernmost section of western Jefferson Parish. Satellite views show my entire neighborhood is intact. There are some trees down, but other than that and the lack of cars about, all looks like any other day. There is no flooding and no anarchy going on anywhere near my home. As Veilchen said, Southern Louisiana is my home and my love. I would never leave it. My family has been here since the early 1720's. We've survived a lot and we will continue to do so. 

I'm a Red Cross subscriber, but I'm more than willing to add extra to my monthly payment; so many countries need help.  I've just heard on the news that Fidel Castro has offered substantial help.  This seems so ironic.

The US government's response seems unbelievably slow; US troops need to be brought home to support US citizens in New Orleans.  It is disastrous that the manpower is not in place where it is needed most. 

My daughters' school has collecting voluntary donations for the Red Cross Disaster Relief Fund. Besides all the loving kids who have emptied their piggy banks many of us parents have also donated as much as we can. Prior to the disaster our school had planned a blood drive for September 12, you can bet it's still on. Hubby & I will be there to give our pint and I am certain that many other residents of our area will be there too. There was also a telethon by our local news station yesterday and the amount pledged was encouraging news, about $1,600,000.

I was so discouraged by the slugishness in an appropriate response. My husband & I along with many other friends we spoke with felt so helpless seeing all of the suffering. I can't understand why it took so long to pull it together. I just hope that things will get better from here. All of the residents in New Orleans and the other Gulf areas will continue to be in my thoughts and I will do whatever I can to help them get their lives back.

You're just jealous my hole is much cooler than yours. I bet you wish you had a nice hole to hide out in.

Nyah, nyah. You're just jealous. And you have an ugly butt.

Pssh. Power lines fall over all the time. That's what you get for building your home out of flammable materials. If I had a penny for every time a power line fell over here, I'd have enough copper to make my own power lines! And I'd make sure they wouldn't fall over!

NO ANARCHY? Dammit, why can't I ever have any anarchy going on around here? I've been waiting for some anarchy for years now. Anarchy is fun! When else can I finally put all this ammo to use? Oh, well. Here's to hoping a disaster happens here, so I can laugh at the locals who didn't invest in a nice bunker. And partake in some anarchy.

What did you expect? The government can never do anything fast. If you call the police and order a pizza right afterwards, your pizza will arrive first. If something catches fire, you're going to be out of marshmallows by the time the fire department arrives.

now, see, that's humor.  that's truly fucking funny.  gwb walking around in front of cameras making semi-intelligent noises that he doesn't understand, which is okay because he doesn't mean it anyway, is not getting involved.  getting involved was when his policies took money that would have gone toward enhancing flood protection and sent it, along with 1/3 of the LA national guard, to Iraq.  which hopefully wasn't about the oil, because...
 
Odyssey, does your dad have anything to say about the major oil production that used to take place in the gulf before all the platforms drifted away?

'sokay though, pescado's truck prolly runs on something from a Montana open pit mine that used to be a mountain.  nothing touches him.

The second worst part about this whole disaster is the sleazy politicians and "celebrities" who are seeking personal profit from the grief of people in Louisiana and Mississippi by using it as an exuse to take pot-shots at the president.

The worst part is the sensationalist "news" media giving these insane swine a public forum because they are "celebrities."   We should demand equal time on CNN for non-celebrity crazies!

JM, if you want to use up some ammo, there are some targets for you.


Get real, Kim.  The president declared a state of emergency in Louisiana and Mississippi and mobilized the effort before the storm even hit.  These are people we're talking about, not magic machines that suddenly appear at the push of a button. 

The speed and magnitude of the response to this emergency, from all parts of America, is without precedent or parallel in all of recorded human history.  Never have so many done so much so quickly, and such an extreme expression of ingratitude on the part of the politicians claiming to represent the people of New Orleans is also without precedent or parallel.

Folks, when ya'll get home, fire those bastards.  They are disgracing the great state of Louisiana. 

Meanwhile, you're welcome to enjoy the hospitality of Houston (where I was this morning, working my day job) and Dallas (where I am tonight, in my house up north for the long weekend).  We're glad to have you!

Innocent bystanders might be interested to know what the "news" media are not reporting because it doesn't support their political agenda.  Every television station, every radio station, every church, and everybody else I've seen in Texas from Dallas to Houston are organizing relief efforts and collecting donations to help out the folks displaced by this mess.

Beyond that, why are these greedy sleazebags whining at the federal government in any case?  Why should people in Idaho and Montana pay the extra cost of hardening New Orleans against a hurricane?  Let those who want to live in New Orleans pay the cost of building facilities for a hurricane zone; it's what everybody else on the Gulf coast does.  If they don't want to pay those costs, they should move to Boise or Billings where they don't have to worry about hurricanes.

Sheesh.  I've lived in border counties for more than thirty years, just 25 miles from the Galveston sea wall, and this is the first time I've heard anybody whine at the federal government for not doing what we have already shown that we can do for ourselves.

yes, we should have some air time too.
yup, the president's declared a lot over the past 5 years.  pretty near all bullshit.  but he's got you fooled, so carry on soldier.   
three closing words.  james lee witt. 

I'd like to ask one question. If you and your children were stranded on an Interstate overpass for 4 days, in extreme heat, with no food and no water, would you still feel that the response was fast enough? If your wife had a premature baby who died in a hospital due to lack of power, water, supplies, etc, would you still think it was fast enough? What about if you watched your elderly mother die of dehydration right next to you? Still fast enough?  I don't fault Ray Nagin for being angry and frustrated. The situation is horrific. The president himself has admitted that the response was not fast enough. Why couldn't the Louisiana National Guard respond? BECAUSE THEY ARE IN FUCKING IRAQ.

I'm glad that you're safe and sound in the great state of Texas. I and all of Louisiana are grateful to Texas for their stepping up in the heroic manner in which they have. Louisiana is a POOR state. When the oil industry down here went belly-up in the 80's, our economy was destroyed. New Orleans and Louisiana were just beginning to turn the corner, after years and years of plain determination and hard work.



Greedy sleazebags? I'm sorry, but that offends me deeply. We'll see what happens when the rest of the country has no gasoline to run their fucking huge pickup trucks and SUV's. Do people in Idaho and Montana use gasoline? Do they sell their grain to the rest of the world? Do you like your coffee and your sugar? Think the Port of New Orleans wasn't worth protecting? We'll see. In the meantime, Greg, I won't be responding to anything you have to say.  Have a great fucking life and think about me when you're paying 7 bucks a gallon for the gasoline for that commute.

I need to stay away from this forum until this is over. Over and OUT.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Nice try, though. ;)

*raaaaises eyebrows at SimsHost*

Political agenda, hm? Yeeeeeeeah. I think I'll stick to getting my opinions and information from Making Light (http://www.nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/), since their thinking is based on data from within this universe.

Yeah, but many of us wisely saw this one coming. Mostly because it happens every year. And hoarded the stuff. I sure did. I started hoarding it years ago, and stocked up majorly when it got cheap a few years back. I generally keep at least 40K gallons on stockpile. Just in case. Even on the less than stellar fuel economy of a T-34/85, that's enough to travel across the entire country.

Greggo happens to be from Texas, not up here. I, for one, have boycotted gas for over a year now. I encourage everyone else to do the same! Say "No!" to outrageous fuel prices. BUY A HORSE!

And sure, the port is certainly worth protecting. I see this as an opportunity. When Rome burned down, many accuse Emperor Nero of fiddling while Rome burned, but forget that he did drastically revise the fire safety codes in response. It didn't happen again. Something to think about.

Oh Reg, thank goodness, I have been worried sick about you.  I am so glad you made it to safety for now and I am so sorry for your community.  Thank you so much for checking in with us, I know you have greater worries on your mind.  Please keep us posted when you are better able to do so.

Jack Woods at MTS2 lives in the Southeast most part and he posted a note on the 29th that he was hoping for the best and may be out of pocket for a while.  He actually apologized for the inconvenience of possibly being unavailable - Can you believe this?  Nobody has heard from him yet. 

Here is an excerpt from Delphy:

08-31-2005, 10:01 AM ..."Our thoughts and prayers will be with these victims and their families. JWoods is one of the Simming Community's most talented artists and modders. He is also a moderator at MTS2, and a loving friend and father. He was in New Orleans with his family as the hurricane hit. We can only hope that he and his family are safe. If we hear anything, we will keep you informed. But please keep him in your thoughts and prayers as well..."

Kind Regards,
Delphy, and the MTS2 Staff
~~~

LyricLee said he has her cell phone number, but as of today there is still no word on him.  She even posted on the website for the Red Cross to try and request some additional information.
Here is the thread, if anyone is interested:
http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=87245&page=5&pp=25

No he uses completely natural sources of Methane - It runs on all that crap with which he entertains himself.

JM, You are such a Gun-Ho, why don't you go have a field day and organize with the KKK or some of your fellow Wyoming militants?

For the love of whatever God you don't worship - It's OK to show and receive compassion without inflicting PAIN - Really it's OK

I just thought of something and I am truly not trying to be funny, as most of you know I am incapable of that anyway, however - Do you realize those poor people are actually living out the Email Challenge?  A Cell with no walls and no toilet!

Reggikko, sorry for not posting to this thread sooner cause I only go online once every 2 or 3 weeks. Though I don't know all of you very well, I do think secretly of us as a family, hope i'm not only fantasizing this :) I'm so glad that you and your family are ok, and i'm also sorry for the others that weren't.

I come from Malaysia, one of the areas where the tsunami of 26 december struck. A tragedy isn't easy to get by, but after 8 months, the people in the south asia area have gone on with their lives, and i'm sure everyone in the affected area of Hurricane Katrina will do so soon.

I'm not very good with words, so i'll just wish everyone good luck

To blame the ordinary people living anywhere for not making their city safer is ridiculous!  Ordinary people have no say in these things - the ballot box these days merely replaces one lot of self-seeking opportunists for another lot!  Did the people of Chernobyl have any say in the state of the Nuclear Power Plant near their homes?  Do the people of Bangladesh have any choice but to continue to live on the world's largest flood-plain!  And the poorer the people, the less say they have!

Any large multi-national company could have afforded the cost of reinforcing the defences of New Orleans, any government which cares about the safety of it's people could have extracted a one-off payment from those companies which choose to use the Port of NO as a base of operations to pay the cost of protecting what is, after all, their investment as well, but if you have a city with a large poor population, you cannot expect them to be able to pay such huge costs!

And Reggikko, just because one or two people posting here seem to think this is just another opportunity to bolster their own ego or that of their "wonderful" president, it doesn't mean that most of us don't genuinely care about the plight of all the people for whom New Orleans has been home for so long!

What I find totally amazing is that here in North Carolina, the power companies were on standby and ready to respond BEFORE Katrina hit.  The morning after, we saw convoys of power co. trucks headed south out of town on their way to NO.  But the troops at Fort Bragg here and the marines stationed on the coast weren't called out to go there until Thursday or Friday.

And with all the looting they've been showing on the 24 hour news coverage, wouldn't you think troops could have been sent in earlier?  Why weren't they on standby for a national emergency?  Guess "our" oil interests in Iraq are more important than the people in our own country and the oil off our own coast.

(I heard that that idiot Rush Limbaugh said that this just shows we should be finding more places to drill for oil.  Get a clue, RL.  Like JM said, get a horse!  Personally, I'd like to see more solar-powered vehicles or steam/water powered.)

I just can't believe how horrible the devastation is there.  My heart goes out to everyone who lives (lived?) there or who has friends or relatives there.  We are doing what we can here in the way of donations to try and help those who are in need.  Wish we could do more.

It is the people who care - because we know that something as devastating could happen to any of us at any time.  And I would hope that if an act of God (or any other event) happened here, the rest of the country would be willing to help us, too.  Look at 9/11.  I only hope as much, if not more, can be done for NO as was done for NY.

Reggikko- I'm glad you're ok, and I hope your family is too. I'm not going into politics right now (though I'm a socialist so you can try to guess my views) but I wish help had gotten there quicker. I heard the Mayor blasting off on the radio - good for him!

Yup. Going to stick solar panels on my roof. Take that! Hah!

The main problem with the response has been the bureaucracy. Basically, FEMA has to get massive amounts of authorization to do anything, or they won't be sure that they're going to have the money. The administration has been trying to take FEMA apart, and has been doing a fairly good job of doing so, and before Katrina it was looking like FEMA was going to be taken off of natural disasters entirely and its resources were going to be devoted to terrorism.  Guess someone forgot that homeland defense includes natural disasters.

The Coast Guard is an armed force, so it runs along military lines. You give them a job to do, and they do it, and they'll worry about the money later. Most of the Federal Government isn't set up that way.

The drilling platforms aren't that big of a deal at this point. They locked down any leaks pretty quickly, so they're not producing any oil, which isn't the greatest thing because I think the Gulf platforms (not just the ones that got unmoored by the hurricane) account for around 50% of the countries oil, but they aren't leaking or anything.

This is why watching the television news depresses me. I watch the news, and I think about all the tens of thousands of people who were still in New Orleans because they didn't have any way to leave, either no car or no money for a hotel, and I think, "This is wrong." Gut feeling of wrongness. This whole mess was definitely made worse by things that we do, how we handle things. New Orleans wasn't underwater when it was started. Stopping the replacement of silt, provided by flooding, is to blame for that. The loss of the mangrove swamps took out a natural buffer to flooding. Global warming increases the nastiness of the system that creates hurricanes. Our use of toxic chemicals to do everything makes natural disasters that much worse when they release those chemicals.

If economic arguments about the value of the port of New Orleans, offshore oil, and agriculture products hold, then the area has enough money to build its own infrastructure.  Case in point: the Houston ship channel.  Also don't overlook the economic value of tourism in New Orleans; tourism is the second largest export industry in the world today.

Of course, if those industries didn't return sufficient revenues to pay for the infrastructure required to make them economically viable, then no, those things would not be "worth protecting" from an economic standpoint.  But that's really not the case; those industries in Louisiana clearly do have sufficient revenues for the local region to build what it needs to build.  Or at least they could if the politicians (and the people who elect them) would only realize that it's a local problem.

I agree that disaster relief is a national problem.  Everybody is subject to some kind of natural disasters.  Even folks in Billings and Boise have to worry about having volcanic ash dumped on them.  But when it comes to the long term projects of building infrastructure, it's time for folks in Louisiana to move up from feudalism and join the modern world.  Be builders, not beggars.


Speaking of which, there's a horse ranch just half a block from my house in Wylie, Texas that would be happy to talk to you!  ;D

I have nothing to do with the KKK. I'm not racist. I hate everyone.

THat has to be the biggest load of crapola I've ever heard. Didn't anyone ever tell you that love hurts?

Hey, maybe they'll get perfect scores, too.

All I have to say is, whatever certain people think, there are times when "a still tongue makes a wise head" , and those people would do well to remember that, and to consider the feelings of those whose lives have been torn apart.  As I said before, ordinary people, some of whom are poor by world standards, not just those of the West, cannot be expected to pay for these defences, and whether it's the state government or the national government that finds the money is really immaterial - if they get the money from the large businesses operating in the area it makes no difference who does it, so long as the money is found and the job done!

We have natural disasters in Europe too, but despite the fact that we have umpteen different languages which makes communications more difficult, aid reaches areas hit by disaster far more quickly.  Maybe it's down to how much people actually care!

ROMANTIC IMAGES?????? I used to live in Melbourne, and some of my friends had their houses destroyed the year I was in grade 12, and we lost our beach house (yeah, yeah, boo hoo) in a bushfire. I don't attach any romance to the word. Who are they thinking of? This is the stupidest explanation I have ever heard.

A bit like saying that because the word "avalanche" has quite a pleasant sound,  that avalanches are not really dangerous! It doesn't matter what word is used to describe something devastating, it doesn't become less devastating if you use a different word, but just confuses people!

The federal government of the US was extremely sluggish to respond; this was admitted by your president himself. National Guard personnel from Virginia, a 12 caravan convoy, was turned around mid-way to the Gulf Coast, because the government and FEMA could not coordinate. The Armory in D.C. is full with Guard personnel, waiting to be deployed, and they are waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

The Mayor of NO has my full support for his words. He sees his people suffer and die, while the government drags its heels. The last time I looked, the Gulf Coast region was part of the United States, so why can't the rest of the country rally around its stricken comrade? Since they are part of the federal government they can damn well expect help from them, just as they would provide help if Boise were hit with a natural disaster.

It is callous to tell those people to build elsewhere, this is their home after all. The Louisiana seaports are very important to the Federal Government, somehow I don't think they would care to lose them.

The European Union is dipping into their raw materials reserves to help out. Europe has no Oil production to speak off, but they will help. It is sad that the European Union was quicker on the ball than the US Government of which the Gulf Coast is a large and income-providing part.

And certain US officials and newspapers had the nerve to criticize the response in London to the London Bombings!

I think if there was a disaster on the scale of what's happening in Louisiana, then European government leaders would tell all their emergency services to get things moving and worry about getting the funding later!

Well that does surprise me, cos even us Brits were quite pleasantly surprised how well the authorities coped with that :D

Yes, Inge, there was definitely criticism!  Plus a lot of misinformation - they apparently knew things in the US about what was happening that people over here didn't know - I think most of which was based on personal opinions and rumour!

ZZ  was the criticism directed at the shoot to kill policy, (even though we don't know who we're shooting at), rather than the immediate emergency response to the 7th July bombings?  Because the immediate emergency response was brilliant.  Even those who positively dislike our police spoke up in their favour.  However, the subsequent shooting of the Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes was a fiasco of the highest order, with what can only be described as the worst cover up campaign of all time, so I'd understand if British Police were criticised for that.

That was wrong, I agree, and from what I read it was the armed response police's macho "we'll take over now" attitude that was the cause of it all.  but no, the critisism I referred to was such remarks as were made by FBI people saying they'd warned our government and insinuating they should have been able to prevent it.  (Rather the same criticism they received after 9/11!)  The point about any terrorist attack is that, even though you know one is inevitable, you can't predict where or when it will happen!  And if our security services had insisted on excluding certain religious leaders who they knew were fomenting hatred before the London bombs killed quite a few British Moslems there would have been an outcry from even moderate moslems.

J.M. Pescado.

I maybe young, but I have a heart, and I'm sure you do too...somewhere. For God's sake, use it! Many thousands of people have DIED and cites have been ripped apart.

You can't change the past, so why go saying they should have made their buildings out of stuff that won't fall over? You make me SICK. I really feel for Reggiko, and everyone else who has been affacted by Katrina.

JM, I have lost all respect for you, and hope you show your true feelings (Yes I am sure you have some) for the people affected by Katrina.

I love your hacks, and sense of humour, IN OTHER POSTS. In a crisis like this, I cannot believe that you can joke!

And don't think you can insult me and think it will be ok. I do not care.

You should be ashamed.

Bah, you have to have some semblance of a sense of humor in life or it would be very depressing indeed.

Chiming in from the "Boise-Billings"  area, (Pocatello, ID close enough)  We don't mind doing what we can to help out either.  We are still a nation that contains some semblance of humanity, we are happy to help all we can.  All we have to worry about is the supervolcano of Yellowstone killing us all ;)  (Ack! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!  sheesh.)  This is said facetiously for anyone missing the humor.

What I'm peeved about is the right-wing complaining about everyone "politicizing" this and "bashing Bush" when we should be "worried about helping the victims."  Ok, I challenge any one of them to go for an hour without saying "Bush-bashing." (Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, et. al)

What makes me sick is the people in this area charging exorbitant prices for gas that they already had in their tanks in the ground that we get from nearby refineries in Utah and Wyoming.  Price gouging, anyone?

The thing I feel the worst about is that I can't do more to help.  If I was closer I'd happily open my crappy house to any of them :D

Oh, and BRAVO to the Mayor of New Orleans for his screaming diatribe!

Maybe the delayed respons of government help is that on Friday evening when the national weather service said a catagory 5 hurrican was heading for New Orleans,  the Mayor did not call the governor,  did not make evacuations plans and did not call out the national guard.

That on Saterday when he called for a mandatory evacuation of NO,  he did nothing to call in help,  buses on trains to help evacuate the poor and disabled.   

That on Tuesday,  the poor of NO were wandering around without food or water screamin where is our Mayor.

Or maybe it's because the federal government can't take over until the state government calls them in.

Or yes go up a level -- after 4 days of me --in Baltimore knowing that they people at the convention center and super dome were without food and water -- the head of Fema operations saying he wasn't aware of the situation cos no one told him. 

Or how about even days after Bush had declaired a state of ememrgency Jerkoff,  I mean Chertoff was still waffling around like a ship without a sail

Or we can even place the blame on Regan and Bush one and Clinton,  for cutting back the military budget.  Durring hurricain Camille -- during the Viet Nam war we had enough troops left over for Nixon to show up with troops and aid withing 48 hours.

There are a lot of levels of blame before you get to Bush.  White, black,  republican or Demicrat or bipartisan.   There is plenty of blame to go around,  and there will be plenty of time to spread it around after the living are rescued and the dead are burried..   

Well, I just hope the right people do get the blame and the buck doesn't get passed to subordinates, as is the usual case with governments everywhere!

You said it ZZ.

And I agree with the fact that right now the first, second, third - 100th priority are the poor people in the Gulf Coast region. They are in desperate need of help; blame pushing later - help now.

However, perhaps if certain people are aware of the strength of feeling throughout not just the US but much of the rest of the world they will feel encouraged to take a lead and get things moving a bit faster!

i don't really give a squat about blame.  doesn't matter whose fault it is. this nations' federal government has been turned over to people who will not accept the responsibility of doing what the federal government is supposed to do.  i don't have a link handy right now, but you could google  "us constitution preamble" it's a short quick read.
what's most annoying is that those same people refuse to accept responsibility for their stupid actions and the consequent damage.  shifting lies on shifting lies, and somehow, many citizens insist on being unwilling to catch the odor of what they're being fed.
we have a city and a region to rebuild right now, but i'm hopeful that, next good chance, we will choose a government that will be responsible to the needs of the nation,  while we still have a nation.
so why am i writing and posting this?  damned if i know.  ignore it.

reggikko, be safe, be well.

it took some time but i've made my inner peace with pescado's ways.  his approah is defensive, and not so terrible anyway.  plus, he allows sane voices to speak here.

Update:

My son drove down to New Orleans from Baton Rouge and checked on my house. Most of my fence was blown over, my porch doors were torn to shreds, and my sycamore tree dropped a large branch on one corner of the roof. We lost a lot of shingles, but that was the extent of the damage. We do have water service, but don't yet have electricity and telephone service is spotty. . Apparently many of my neighbors have returned and are starting to clean up. I don't plan to go back until we have power, but i don't think that will take very long to restore. The neighboring parish has electricity, and we are the next step on the grid.

Most of my relatives have been accounted for. My elderly aunt and uncle are in Birmingham, Alabama. My best friend has not been heard from since before the hurricane.

In defense of Mayor Nagin, he did begin asking people to voluntarily evacuate before the storm. His hands were somewhat tied by state evacuation policy and the state police. How do people propose that he could have fully evacuated a city of nearly a half million people? The city does not have those kinds of resources. One other point. The city survived the hurricane just fine. Yes, there was damage and some flooding. It wasn't until the levee broke that all hell broke loose. The levee system is under the jurisdiction of the Army Corps of Engineers, not the city of New Orleans.

I don't think that blaming the victims of this is fair or rational. We all (except Pescado) are vulnerable to forces of nature. As someone else commented, last time I checked, we were part of the same nation. I pay my taxes and I expect my government to respond to the needs of my neighbors, no matter where in this country they may live.

That would have been my next guess.  You are the most unbiased of all - you hate everyone equally.  JM, you are a virtuous man.


Only if you can't find the strength to withstand something which causes greater pain than love.


No doubt they shall and emerge as the winners!  Maybe the challenge should be renamed - Reg, what do you think?

Reg, I am truly glad for those you have located and I am sincerely concerned for those you have not.  I won't say I am sorry except for your anxiety from worry and fear, because I still hold hope that they will be found safe.


That's because he believes he is a force of nature, but everyone has their Achilles heel, even Pescado.

The blame game won't get people to safety, feed them and care for them. I hope what will be taken from this tragedy is better plans for future crisis situations. May no one ever have to suffer that sort of Hell again.

Reggikko, I'm glad to hear that most of your relatives are OK. I hope you'll hear good news from your best friend soon. I'm also glad to hear that your home & neighborhood are in pretty good shape. I love your beautiful city and still plan to visit there someday (I'm a big nut for historic homes).

I heard an alarming story late today about the levee break. Comedian Steve Harvey was there at the center in Baton Rouge to help and spoke to a resident who lived right near the levee. The resident said that he saw a couple of barges (perhaps blown into the lake during the hurricane) smash into the levee and cause the break. I'm not sure how much accuracy there is in that statement, we'll probably find out more later. My heart breaks for the resident though; he told Steve Harvey that along with losing his home, he lost his wife and children too. That's the sort of nightmare I don't think I could survive. Perhaps the engineers need to get in there and think of better ways to keep this from happening in the future. But since I'm no engineer I will leave that to those who are knowlegable enough to decide what to do.

I consider us all to be part of the same nation. We all help each other in all crisis situations (fire, flood, earthquake). Regardless of the mistakes any governmental official could make, helping each other is the right thing to do.

I live in 'Tornado Alley' in North Texas and a tornado hit the end of the building where I worked.  I told Brynne that I thought hurricanes were much worse and I would not want to experience one.  I have been through tsunamis, too and though I love the ocean, I believe hurricanes are the worse type of storm.  The book, Isaac's Storm, is a historical account of the one that hit Galveston at the turn of the century.  It is a chilling story, even without the exerpts from interviews with some of the survivors.

I watched the History Channels documentary of "Isaac's Storm." You're right, it's quite the chilling story. The horror of it stayed with me for a long time.

I grew up in Tuolumne County in CA and lived through the forest fire dangers every year. One year my grandparents had to be evacuated and the fire came within a couple of acres of their home. I live in the Sacramento area now but I still get anxious every Aug-Oct, especially for extended family who lives in those areas. I still have nightmares about the firestorms. And in the Sacramento area we face levee failure for the Sacramento & American Rivers which has caused terrible flooding in the past and will likely happen again(luckily I live outside the flood area but it would still be an awful prospect). Some wise person once said that Mother Nature's a bitch and barely tolerates us. I think that person's right and we should never be complacent about the area where we live.

Yes, you can't take anything for granted.  Even though we have tornadoes here, nobody has basements because you can't build them in the kind of ground we have.  It's thin rocky soil on top of a heavy layer of clay and limestone over the Trinity River springs basin.

I know what you mean about becoming antsy at certain times of years.  My husband's parents had built a house out in an area where grass fires were problem enough in the dry months.  Because it was in an unincorporated part of the county, people would come and park above the yard on what they thought was a stretch of tar and gravel country road and shoot off fireworks for July 4th and New Years.  One night we came home and found ourselves following the Volunteer firetruck, which turned at every corner we had to go.  My heart had sunk so low in my gut that it met my stomach on its way up.  When we arrived the fire was mostly across the road on the other side, but in a neighbor's field where he had a pedigree sheep herd.  We were so scared, but so damn angry at the thoughtlessness.  Even though our house could not be seen from the road, the neighbor's house certainly could and those idiots knew people lived around in that area.

What is niggling me is - and this is only speculation rather than an allegation, because I don't have any evidence.  Well what I am trying to say is look how quickly aid started arriving at the dome in New Orleans after Bush had visited the devastated areas.  If it could get there within a couple hours of him signing a piece of paper when he got back to Washington, then if he had signed the paper before he started his journey, the aid could have got there even sooner.

I have this horrible sick feeling that the aid was held back until after his visit to make it look even more like he was the delivering angel who made it possible to help people.   So people would associate seeing Bush with the relief of finally receiving food and water.

Well, clearly, you need a new fence and a new door. I recommend getting proper doors and fencings, ones that don't simply turn to junk in a little wind. You need one of the smaller doors that I have. It's made of solid steel, weighs a quarter ton, seals air and watertight to protect against flooding and sudden decompression (the kind that would result if the Earth's atmosphere were to ignite or be stolen), and opens easily with a hand wheel and some physical force. It mounts in solid steel frame embedded in solid rock, and the only way to get through this would involve extended cutting or lots of explosives. *THIS* is a door. It's not quite as impressive as my external sets of blast doors, but they're well-suited for both interior and exterior use for entrances that do not need to accomodate vehicular traffic. It also makes a satisfyingly resounding *CLANG* when closed. It will repel even sustained gunfire with only cosmetic damage.

As for a fence, I recommend you get one of the ones I have. They're made of concrete reinforced with steel cores, and run all the way to the bedrock and 30 feet down. They'll easily withstand even ramming from armored vehicles like tanks, and can sustain multiple direct hits from even an artillery cannon with only minor cosmetic damage. To prevent scaling, it is topped with electrified razor wire and decorated with numerous warnings admonishing that trespassers will be shot in multple languages, including a graphic description of a stick-figure man being shot. Truly a fence for ages. This is not a fence some wussy hurricane is going to touch.

Shingles are for wimps. I recommend solid concretium reinforced with steel. Not only is it low-maintenace, it's durable and will withstand nearly any form of conventional attack. Still, they are cheap and expendable, so that's no great loss. I hope you didn't buy expensive shingles.

Seems fair to me. After all, didn't this exact same thing happen not all that long ago? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Wasn't it just a year ago that this happened? A wise man learns from the mistake of others. Naturally, the government's response to this matter was atrociously bad. What did you expect? Since when has the government really succeeded in doing anything right?

I have to wonder, J.M., if the defenses you describe are to keep out the massing hoardes of forum users that have tracked you down and want to use torture implements on you? I'm certain there are folk out there who have pretty inventive minds and could think of lots of alternative uses for a blunt spoon, some rubber bands and nice nail gun?  ;D

Update:  LyricLee says there is still no word on Jack Woods.  She also has added him with MSNBC's site.

Awww JM, can I bring Sammie to yours? Her favourite game at the moment is "how many doors can I slam shut" and your house would provide hours of entertainment. It would also be good proof on how Sims 2 toddlers are much harder to look after than real ones ;)

I doubt even a satellite could track him down, if he set his mind to it.  Besides, I think he would enjoy this far more than he deserves.  Eventually, the atmosphere would become too party-like for him and then he would have to bid farewell to all - Right before he pulled the pin !  Talk about VFOS.  Then the real fun would begin for Pescado: hydromulching over the bodily remains and entertaining himself with finding new ways to remove any other evidence of merry-making.

You see, he really is playful and creative at heart - Long Live Pescado the Flayer.

Yes.  Yes it is.  Thankfully the big push seems to have died down, but I'm sure when summer rolls around we'll be hearing about the risk of 'wildfire' instead of bushfire.  And only from the MFS and CFS most likely, the news (I'm hoping) will stick to the word bushfire.

A somewhat petty thing to worry about in the grand scheme of things, but I guess if you let the little things go, it's easier to let even bigger things go by without a fight.

*linguistics/philosophy mode off*

I think even Pescado's fortress would be pretty useless if he got hit by an asteroid!

I still think JM's fortress is pretty much a prison, albeit of his own making. ;)

All those doors clanging!  Shades of Prisoner - Cell Block H!

This is true.  His fortress may become a great smoking hole, but his hide is pure Titanium over Kevlar.

But if he was the only thing left alive, who would he have left to take pot shots at?  His social would go right into the red!

Danni,

Is she big enough to push shut those heavy, vault-like doors?  She may be entertained, too, with all the various combination codes and control devices that she can find there.  Too bad she couldn't get credit for all those possible skill points - like gold they would be.

All his Demons!  Yes, he may go into the red, but I rather think he would just embrace that challenge.  I suspect he prefers his own company anyway.

Pish, I'm certain under that gruff ol' exterior is an out and out bastard with a swinging brick for a heart. And that's just J.M.'s gentler side. Doncha just love the cuddly, grouchy old bear?

I guess I ought to, I have one right here at home.  He's a great big, Slavik bear, too, who looks like a red Viking, but he has the cutest nose and ears.

She's probably strong enough... she can knock me over when she puts her mind to it ;)

She's very good with combination codes - she especially likes ones with the numbers 2 or 3 in them ;)

I gotta get the headmaster around here soon... she'll be a child in a couple of years :P

Make sure you've got as many career rewards as possible, so she can max her skills before she's a teen!

Humm... I guess I'll have to stop being a young adult first :P

Or get the buyable ones!

The difference between a fortress and a prison is mostly in which way the guards are looking.

A medieval fortress was both!

That reminds me, I need a dungeon.

I'm sure you'd get some fun out of a few hours on the rack!

Capsgirl,

You guys just get taken by Great White Sharks whenever you go near the sea.

I'll stick to Canberra with our painful policitics.

Reg,

I am just pleased to hear that you are ok and so is your house, bar stuff that can be fixed. I am just appalled by the media broadcast of what has been happening over there. I'm in Australia and the tourists that have been saved from rape and murder by our media over there shooting the stories for the news have come home with some horrific stories. Its sounds like a Mad Max film or people are saying here, Lord of the Flies. Our govt is being hammered for not going in to get Australians but instead the media are doing it. Our Govt in turn is blaming the US govt for not letting our overseas officials in. Sounds like caos to me. Lots of finger pointing. Still it does sound weird to build a city below sea level. Why is that? I was only saying to my hubbie a few weeks back that I would like to visit the States again and see New Orleans in particular. Oh well. I'll head north instead, visit Montana and the Rocky's.

Cheers
Stormy.

All the people who have been affected by Katrina please know that my thoughts are with them in the wake of this terrible event, and through the following days when they will need great fortitude and courage to rebuild their homes/lives. I can only imagine the devastation on a personal level this has/will cause. Blessed be.

On a different note, of all the controversy that is surrounding the subsequent (poor) response to the disaster, I feel the most terrifying is the anarchy that appears to have broken out. I wonder if this is a testement to our failure as a society that those whose motives are less than pure seek to take over? Is this evolution in progress and evidence of our opportunistic abilites as a species to survive? Scary... Watching the news today, a survivor in New Orleans pointed out that many of those at the thick of the lawlessness are youngsters, poor before, but now homeless and without anyone to assist them as families are dead. I grieve for those young people who had little chance before but are now likely to end their lives even more ignominiously, if that is possible, by being on the receiving end of a bullet. Tragic and wasteful.

And I'll bet while some kids have gone off the rails like this, yet others are doing their best to help remaining family to survive until help arrives.  I know which ones have my sympathies.

Please don't think that I'm all sympathy for the kids that are out doing the bad. No, my sorrow is that it should come to this at all.

Well, obviously, if help had arrived sooner, then they'd have been got out by now, and maybe they wouldn't have lost all their family too.  I must admit, I think this is a case where the troops going in to sort things out should be using rubber bullets if they have to shoot at all!

Well Stormy, as far as I can discern from the history lessons I received from Reg, at the time New Orleans was build, it was nowhere near this close to water as it is now. The sea has been coming closer and closer due to erosions of the coast-lines; it's almost the same as the cities in the Netherlands that are build below sea-level. The disappearance of the wetlands/marshes contribute to the encroachment of the sea, they are natural water-absorbers.

The Southers sea-ports are a major hub for commerce, that's another reason the hurricane had such a devastating effect. Even to the rest of the US and its spilling over into Europe as well, mainly with the price of raw/crude oil. Reg, if I understood you wrong, feel free to correct me. I swear I was paying attention to you, don't I always? :D

Veilchen, I'm sure you were.  It's exactly the same problem that Venice is suffering, since when it was built the sea-level was lower, but the Mediterranean generally doesn't get such extremes of weather as the Caribbean, so although Venetians get flooding every winter, it's usually within their ability to cope.

The cities in the Netherlands, of course, have very good defences, but with the rise in levels in the North Sea, I don't know how long that will last!

It's never too late to start constructing those pressure domes, for when things eventually sink into the sea. Remember: The average elevation of the Earth is below sea level. Erosion will inevitably sink everything into the sea. If this is at risk for happening near your lifetime, start building a pressure dome.

Or do what the Dutch did and reclaim the land!  If it worked once, there's no reason why it shouldn't work again.  Of course, it means someone else gets the water you should have had!

There is an approach that the heads of the major families that run all the businesses in Japan use:
Rather than say, 'Who can we blame?'...Ask, 'What can we do to fix this problem?', and then they do it.  In their thinking, ultimely everyone is resposible in some way, if not equally.  Each worker from the janitor up takes responsibility very seriouosly and it is the very fabric of corporate life in Japan.  This is so much more civilized and so simple an approach, I can't help but admire the wisdom and wish more would follow this type of example.

And let's face it, the Japanese have been living with disasters for a very long time!  And far less people died living in traditional Japanese paper houses than have died in recent years in concrete tower blocks!

I have no sympathy for the looters, and those of us who live on the Gulf Coast and are somewhat familiar with New Orleans shouldn't really be surprised. New Orleans has long been known as a corrupt city from all levels of government, and at one time was known as the murder capital of the world. It specializes in black-on-black crime. And it doesn't help any when the local government initially ignored the looters because it had other priorities and was short handed due to the fact that a large number of its police force left the city and many resigned outright.

As for the blame game, it's very easy to blame the federal government, and ignore the fact that the feds have to respect state rights; they just can't go marching into a state and take over. The governor of the state has to *ask* for federal intervention. President Bush declared the gulf coast states a national disaster area even before the hurricane made landfall...federal aid was ready to go as soon as the Governor of Louisiana requested it...which she didn't do until days after Katrina made landfall. Blame the POTUS all you want; the fact of the matter is he was within the law not to send federal troops rushing into Louisiana until he was asked to do so by the State.

What took so long? Governor Blanco, not picking up the phone and giving permission for the Federal government to step in and take over before the hurricane hit. And Mayor Nagin not putting in place the evacuation plan that had been agreed upon years before. What did you people expect, a major air lift? Get real.

Yes, it's counterproductive to point fingers and assign blame. Unfortunately, there are some extremist elements of the party I was once proud to call my own who have no compunction about using this opportunity of human suffering for political gain, and all because they're under the illusion that this will get them back into the White House in 2008. I have a feeling that when the smoke clears, and the lawsuits start coming at the state and local level, there will be quite a few revelations.

By the way, I live in Houston, TX and we have had our share of hurricanes, so I speak from experience. We were ready for the evacuees from Louisianna long before the storm hit. Churches and private organizations, as well as the city of Houston were mobilized early on. If the city of New Orleans had done likewise, the loss of life might have been less. If the Governor of Louisiana had asked for federal intervention in a timely fashion...who knows how many lives would have been saved?

I am happy that Regikko is safe and that her home is relatively speaking, okay. I pray for those victims of the hurricane, and I grieve with the bereaved. I hope that when all the dust is settled and all is said and done, New Orleans will be better prepared for the next major hurricane that comes its way.

After all...here in the Gulf Coast region, it's still hurricane season until November...and if Katrina had been just 5 degrees west...Houston might very well have gotten it instead of New Orleans.

But then again...we Houstonians are pretty experienced with major hurricanes.

There's something to be said for cheapness and expendability, too. If a paper house collapses on somebody, it won't kill them. The problem here is when people try to find some kind of middle ground, which, as we all know, tends to produce a solution that satisfies neither condition. If you live in a cardboard box, you won't have much to worry about from most disasters, either.

Keep an old tin bath in the outhouse, and you've something to keep you afloat till the water levels drop!

On a more serious note, it seems odd that the US Federal government could go into Afghanistan and Iraq without permission from their Governments (ostensibly to sort out life-threatening situations) but couldn't override a state government in the US itself!  Surely, to prevent this kind of thing ever happening again, there needs to be a rider added to the constitution to allow a takeover by the state if a local government is not handling a situation?  What, in fact, would have been the case had the state government actually been wiped out by the disaster, and there was no government to make the decision to ask for assistance?

I have pondered on the wisdom of building great blocks of concrete, glass and metal in any area that's known for natural disasters, as it seems to me to be a little counterproductive and a tad blinkered. San Fransisco built on a major fault which WILL blow, it's just a matter of when, for example. You have a house in the middle of hurricane country and you've got to be aware of the hazards. Surely? It's like building on flood plain...Don't!

Oh, and who says there no evidence for global warming?

The wonderful president who has refused to sign up to a worldwide treaty!

Ah, Mr. "I-have-no-relevant-thoughts-of-my-own" Bush, mayhap? *Ducks in readiness for flaming*

Well, he's the only president you've got at the moment, I believe!  Comes of voting in a son of an already discredited father!  Like father, like son I say, and if father is a twit, then is it likely the son won't be?

There's a problem with the whole "Don't build in an area that can have natural disasters" line of thought - it pretty much excludes most of the planet.

Taking the USA alone - in the Pacific Northwest there is more than one active volcano - St. Helens is obviously active, Rainier is due to blow, as is Hood... the coastline of the area is also at risk for tsunamis. Hawaii pretty much is volcanos. There's also a caldera sitting just a bit to the side of the midwest due to go 'splody. We all know that California is rife with fault lines, but don't think you're safe if you're on the other side of the country - the New Madrid fault is due for a nasty quake. Tornadoes go all through the middle of the country, go north and you get blizzards, the east coast - well, if the ice caps go, there it goes -

I could go on, but instead, have a map (http://www.livejournal.com/users/trollprincess/817403.html). Of course we're all screwed if a meteor hits, as one does every so often (more often than we'd like to think, really). Even pressure domes won't save you if the ground blows up underneath you, and it's unknown if our technology level is good enough to make a pressure dome that could resist an ice age. Build under the sea - more volcanoes and fault lines.

Doesn't geology just fill you with hope? :D It does me!

Now I know why I'll never vote Democrat again.

The finger pointing could have waited until after everything was over...not during it.

It's funny....some people are swift to say that the present United States government is a dictatorship...and then get angry because it doesn't act like it.

Now, I can't help but wonder if the press would be so likely to give the Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans a pass if both had been Republican instead of Democrat?

Oh well....I won't get into this argument with you folks, but really...the politicizing by both the press and the extremist Democrats could have waited until long after the fact.

Oh, and lest we forget...about going into Afghanistan and Iraq...that didn't happen over night. That took months and months of planning. And ignoring how long it took the Feds to get aid to the victims of Hurricane Andrew (what was it, something like 4-6 days?) and other hurricanes doesn't change the fact that even when the State government is responsible, it's still going to take the Feds time to set up shop. And I do believe that little brother Bush was governor of Florida then.

But then, I suppose it's easier to ignore the facts when Uncle Sugar is run by the Great Satan Bush instead of John "French Poodle" Kerry. One wonders how President Kerry would have fared in such a situation. Would he have ignored the Constitution and federal and state laws and gone in willy nilly to save the day? We'll never know. But I'm sure that whatever he did...in the eyes of the media and the rest of the world...it would have been golden.

Oh, and by the way...where is the UN in all of this? Isn't this natural disaster of sufficient magnitude for them to rush to our aid? Oh, but then I forgot...they haven't got any money to spare. They can only give us their sympathy.

and thanks zz for answering the query about global warning denial. 
state of emergency declaration by gov blanco was august 26.  request from governor for federal  state of emergency was august 28.  even without that request, federal intervention was pretty much a mandate immediate post-event, per the national response plan of december 2004.  anyone cares can find it on the dept of  homeland ssecurity site at dhs.gov. 
beyond that, and the negligence on levee maintenance (and other corps of engineers responsibilities, nationwide), the flooding probability should have had a specific response plan.  not the same as but similar to the plan for responding to a terrorist attack on the levees.  oh, right. we don't have one of those either.   maybe if we had competent leadership in the department?   above the department?

I'll be heading home today, folks. I may be incommunicado until my cable internet is up and running. So, for those who would wonder, don't worry if you don't hear from me for a while.

Good luck, Reg!  Hope things aren't too much of a problem to sort out!

We're begining to get displaced families in our little N. TX town.  Today one of the kids enrolled at the school I was working.  She said her family decided to leave two days before the hurricane hit.  They were planning on riding out the storm until the police told the father, "If you don't leave now, I'm afraid you'll be carrrying out those kids in body bags."  She said they think their house is under 12-20 feet of water (east of New Orleans).

Well, it's good to hear they got out safely and the kids are going to school - one little bit of normality for them.

I found a methane powered boiler for your dungeon and a rusty old grate for a breathin' hole.


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Ha ha ha. You people crack me up, both Democrat and Republican. You both act like victims if your side gets attacked.

I am sure John Kerry (nice French attack there, BTW. Very predictable.) would have been in just as much fire as Bush was. I am sure Republicans would've been more than happy to attack Kerry and use it to honor the Bushes, Reagan, and others. "If BUSH was in this position, blah blah blah would've happened, because Bush isn't lazy, unlike you slobbering Democrats!" Judging by your comments, I am sure you'll be amongst the blamers.

Political stubbornness is what is wrong with this country. Liberals vs. conservatives, Democrats vs. Republicans... and both of you are unwilling to make compromises, or at least let the other side speak. And the fact that this disgusting behavior is brought in during a time of crisis is heartbreaking.

I don't like the fact that the Democrats are accusing Bush altomatically. I think this all needs to be examined by non-partisan people before we start yelling and blaming. I think both sides are going to be seen as guilty, though. However, this is no time to start acting like victims or to start pointing fingers. We should help people, then poltical bitch later. After all, whining about Bush is not going to help the people of New Orleans one damn bit.

Yes, I live in the Metroplex and we are expecting another 1,000 tonight.  My husband is on call and working for both our Presbytery's local response team and for FEMA through the City's EOC.  What is very much needed for the displaced families in shelters everywhere are Kits for Personal Hygiene and Activity for the children.  Our church's General Assembly in Louisville, Kentucky has given a list and instructions on what to include.  They can be sent to the receiving warehouse in Houston (address given), taken to the shelters themselves or given to the Red Cross.

Here is a link for what to package in the Kits:  http://www.pcusa.org/pda/tools/shelterhealthkit.htm

It was also suggested that if you wish to do so, you may include a letter or card to help brighten their outlook; even drawings from your children are welcome.  These are small things and though they do not seem like much, every item is desperately needed and very much appreciated by both the displaced families and the volunteers.

My mother is English and she and my sister lived on the northeast shore near Heacham 1953 when 'The Great Flood' came through the Wash from Holland.  They retreated to the second of their home and my mother opened the window to take some pictures.  A wave hit the window and her and she said among the seaweed and other debris there were fish flopping around on the floor.  A large boat winch had been pushrd from it's moorings by the wall of water and had wedged itself in the stone wall at the front corner their living room.  She said it took three more winches just to dislodge the huge metal mass from the wall.   In the pub, the guys were playing darts while sitting in row boats.  They celebrated the 50th anniversary of the flood and the completion of their shoreline construction for the flood prevention program.

Just curious, but what do the Mormons have to do with natural disasters?  Just thought it looked amusing that they were notated.

There is a little white triangle in North Texas that seems to be exclusive - this is clearly not the case.  If anything the entire region of North Texas from New Mexico to Ark-La-Tex should be in an overlapped area of colors  Also, there is a fault line running down through the big middle of it, too.

Despite this, there is nowhere that is truly safe except maybe Burlington, Vermont, but you have to like lots of snow.

Natural hazards - yes New Zealand straddles a nice volcanic fault line almost the length of the country. Is there anywhere on the planet that is NOT risky?

Blizzards aren't a disaster, blizzards are just routine weather. Up here, we get those every winter, doesn't bother me at all. So what if everything is buried in 3 feet of snow? It doesn't stop the Russians, and it doesn't stop me. Tornadoes are merely a minor nuisance. If I had a tornado here, I would have nothing to fear from it, either. Tornadoes can't touch you when you're over 800 feet underground beneath solid rock. You just have to pick the local problems you can manage.

And do you know why I don't have to worry about this? BECAUSE I PLANNED AHEAD. I saw these things happen to OTHER PEOPLE and made sure to take precautions to MAKE SURE IT DOES NOT HAPPEN TO ME.

An ice age isn't a problem. It'll just get cold. Ever been to Siberia? That's cold. People live there just fine.

BaneChild, it's this little thing called a joke. ;) Tongue in cheek, wot? Although Utah does have a number of active fault lines...

Witch, no! Price we pay for being alive is the constant risk of death, I guess.

JM, Siberia of now is rather balmy compared to an ice age. Never mind the other problems one encounters when the entire planet is encased in a ball of ice, like food. But you don't have to eat - right?

Life is a sexually transmitted disease with 100% mortality rate.  ;D

People survived the last ice age just fine. I, for one, subsist off of the rats I raise and on potatoes grown hydroponically in underground chambers. I could likely keep this up indefinitely. I mean, sure, some people who didn't bother to prepare are going to starve as a result of widespread food shortages, but remember: Soylent Green is made from people!

Well, if Homo Sapiens wasn't so busy outbreeding every other species with the exception of bacterium, then we wouldn't need to build in dangerous areas. Roll on extinction, say I...

As a Brit, I don't feel I have the necessary qualifications to make a comment about America's internal political wrangling, but I do agree that spin and bitching do not help matters in an emergency. Finger pointing is always counterproductive in whatever level of life it is indulged in. Suck it up, for Heaven's sake, and act like responsible adults! There are people dying.

i think my country can be counted as a non-risky country. the only bad stuffs that happen to us Malaysians is when our neighbouring country, the BIG islands-country, gets earthquakes or decides that burning huge pieces of land is a great and efficient way of clearing the land. lots of haze here a while back. oh and the scorching heat. if you love summer you'll love it here :)

I disagree. Finger-pointing is absolutely essential, but equally important is making sure all the fingers are pointed in advance. For this reason, somebody must be chosen to be blamed for things, preferrably in advance. That way, we know that if anything goes horribly wrong, it's automatically his fault. To do otherwise would be extremely bad for morale. Sometimes you just gotta take a stand and go, "I have no idea what just happened here, but I know this is your fault somehow."

I daresay it seems alot of people seem to have gone to the J. M. Pescado School of Finger-Pointing, and most of them graduated with honors. You must have trained them well. But is it me or do most of them seem to be Democrats?

lol... what a complete git you are, J.M. I've often found hiding behind a wall is quite productive in ensuring someone else gets the blame for a error, especially if the other person looks guilty (as they often do). And the ready words spring to mind: "Prove it".

www.illwillpress.com (http://www.illwillpress.com)

Do not go here if you are likely to be offended even a teeny weeny bit.

Not true. If they had truly been graduates of the my school of finger-pointing, they wouldn't be disagreeing about who to blame for it. They'd just blame him for it and get on with it. Like with Draklixa. It's always his fault.

Last time the federal goverment tried to take over states rights,  we had a civi war.


laeshanin -- that squirell took the words right out of my head.

About what that squirrel said:

If you watched the news in the early days of the disaster, you would've seen that the news people were trying to help the best they could. However, they had a JOB to do, and it was rather important: to report the full extent of the disaster, to share information about it, and to inform others on how they could help and where. You can't just expect them to throw their cameras into the water and help these people willy-nilly, especially when they were helping by letting their pleas be known acrossed the country. Besides, many of those newspeople didn't have the skills or the equipment to take care many of the needs. Their lack of expertise could've screwed up things.

Bitch.

Kidding! :D
(I really am kidding...love you Momthing...)

I agree about the media people, it's their job to report the news and often they risk their lives just to do that!  Think how many news men and women have been killed in Iraq, just for trying to keep the world informed as to what was happening.

Diala/Z.Z. - That's true. Many correspondents have died doing their job, and most of them wouldn't have a clue. However, most of the hacks I'm aquainted with are miserable cynical bastards who like nothing more than to get their teeth into some good squalid human misery. And they are very manipulative, as well as being able to put spin on almost anything that comes out of someone's mouth. Not to mention all those lovely high tech editing techniques. But that's not to say that the majority of journo's aren't solid decent people...  :-X Also, much as we may dislike this there is a serious flaw in human nature as we all like to dwell on other people's misfortune, and who hasn't rubbernecked?

Anyway, I thought the squirrel was amusing, but also knew it would be contentious.

Grrr... why haven't they picked up on it yet? Katrina was all my fault! I stamped my foot too hard while yelling at Samantha and it caused a catergory 5 hurricane. So they can stop finger pointing, because I've admitted to it, and get on with saving lives and cleaning up.

I didn't vote for the man, and I personally do not know anyone who voted for the man.  I still believe, and will never be convinced, that he and his took the White House by hook and by crook.  I'm sorry to anyone here who I may have offended.  That's just my opinion.

Reg, (((hugs))) to you girl!!  I've been thinking about you, just haven't had a chance to get over here and check until today. 

I keep threatening to drive to some of the evacuation centers and take some babies who have been orphaned home to foster, but Hubby says that they'd never let me near them and that he'd divorce me.  I sent some baby formula and went on local radio asking other parents to do the same thing.  It was a little thing, and I wish I could do more.  I can't stand seeing their little faces on CNN!!  My heart goes out to everyone suffering down there, but the little orphaned babies!!!!!!  OMIGAWD!!!

 

As a non-American, these sites are very reassuring to me...

http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ (http://www.sorryeverybody.com/)

http://www.apologiesaccepted.com/index.html (http://www.apologiesaccepted.com/index.html)

New Zealand is a small country and has little world power. It is very scarey to many of us here that someone like Bush is in charge of such a large world power, terrifying, the man cannot even speak logical grammatical sentences, he invades oil-rich countries for no other reason than he can and refuses to sign treaties that will help the world environmentally - given that America is responsible for so much pollution.

Yeah, he's that scary to the 49% of us who DIDN'T vote for him...and probably most of the morons--excuse me--PEOPLE who DID vote for him too.

When Bush was elected my husband and I predicted that America would be in a war within a year..sometimes it sucks to be right. As an American it is disheartening to see our country so poorly represented by a man who has such difficulty forming a coherant sentence and seems bewildered by his job and responsibilites. I watched every debate during the presidential election and while John Kerry was not the most charismatic personality I've ever seen, he was at least able to form articulate and well thought out opinions. I am sure had he been elected he also would be facing a firestorm of attacks from his critics. The thing is, none of these politicians actually give a shit about any of us "ordinary" people, they just want to further their own agendas and will use any opportunity to do so. I think it is sad that the feeling of unity and non-partisanship that we had after September 11 cannot be duplicated in the face of a natural disaster that will leave thousands and thousands dead simply because so many politicians just want to pad their own careers.

Rather have a president with a speach inpediment than a Socialist.   This country has been going down the tubes since we started paying people to breed.

Well, how do you think a lot of people in the UK feel when they see our PM kissing his ****!

Actually a lot of people here were disgusted with Tony Blair around the whole Iraq thing, especially that cooked report about weapons of mass destruction, he tried to put one over the whole country.

Mind you, on a local level, we are about to have an election. We have a system whereby we get one party vote and one local candidate vote. Trouble is, our local MP is a man in his fifties who has a diehard following, so he gets elected back time after time, sometimes by the skin of his teeth. The really sad thing is that he's an alkie, who obviously manages to control it during the day but is often to be found in bars late at night, having altercations with immigrant taxi drivers, trying to pick up young women and all the other behaviours that go along with the lifestyle. Last year when I went to Wellington, our capital, I found myself apologising to three separate taxi drivers for our city electing him!?!  :-\

He still has piratical good looks and a smooth and old fashioned manner, the old women just swoon over him. He literally digs them all up from their graves the night before an election and infuses them with enough life to vote. Some middle-class, well-off people like him. The old men adore him because he is a complete redneck bigot, despite being a dark-skinned Maori himself. He plays on peoples' fears about crime and immigration and old age and money. He cannot answer a straight question without developing a conspiracy theory.

In the last 20 years this man has done nothing for the local community in the way of developing industry or manufacturing, no lobbying for anything sensible like roading to cope with the mass population explosion here, nothing. Every election, I pray enough old people have died that this man won't get back into parliament. I could be waiting a while, this town started as a rich retirement village on the coast.  :'(

/endrant

Well, if he's an alkie, his liver will soon let him down, even if his voters don't!

Witch:  Thank you for posting those sites.  I feel better, because I live in the bible belt, I'm surroundeed by mindless fundamentalist conservative sheep who love Dubbya and wish we'd just go blow up Iraq and Afghanstan to get Bin Laden and other terrorists, and pull the plug on every program that "hands out" money to the poor, the mentally ill, the disabled, on and on.  I have felt that I was the only person sane in this crazy world.  My own babysitter is a fire-breathing conservative, and she gleefully told me last November as I dropped off my son that her vote had cancelled out my vote.  Bush took NC, proud home state of John Edwards who was running for VP.  Can't even support the home-boy.   >:(

Why does this happen?  Because of many factors.  1 is Fear.  We are scared to death of the stuff we see happening around us.  Bush talks about getting tough on terrorism and crime and lawlessnes, and we want to believe him and think that he's going to stand up for good family values and moral character (remember him repeating that over and over during the debates last year?).  People even hear this preached to them in their churches, to get out and support the "Men of God" that will do away with sins like abortions and stem-cell research.  2 is Kerry.  Why, oh why, did the Democrats pick Kerry?  Was he giving sexual favors to someone (ewwwww!)?  The Republicans and the Conservatives are not the only groups with mindless sheep:  Democrats and Liberals have more than their share, too.  Kerry last year, Gore the election before, no one wants them in power, and to some people, Bush just seemed like the lesser of two evils.  The sad fact is that this country has been sorely lacking in true leadership for a very long time.  Some would say that we killed our last great president (Kennedy) and some would say we haven't had a good president since Truman or even Roosevelt.  I don't know who should run in 2008, because I have yet to see anyone I really thought would be honest and strong and make good decisions that helped everyone, not just his cronnies.  Those kind of politicians are non-existant today, and the ones really running the country are the lobbists and the Corporations.   3 is money.  Bush represents big industry and plays his politics to make them happy.  Why has mental health and Medicare Prescription Coverage been privatized on state and national levels?  Because Big Buisness, Insurance Companies and Drug Manufacturers wanted it that way.  Why are oil prices skyrocketing?  Well, Bush comes from Texas, has lots of contributers and friends in the oil business, family fortune was made in oil. . . you figure it out.  4.  Tax Breaks.  We know that Democrats have a history of "Tax and Spend" politics, and Republican have a history of tax breaks.  They cut necessary programs to do that, but we don't think about that if it's not our problem.  We just like that big check we get the 1st part of every year from the IRS. 

This country has been going down the tubes since we started paying people to breed.  You know what?  I completely and totally agree with that statement, because I see it everyday.  We have a whole generation who think that society owes them something, and they will not get a job, and to keep from going to work they get pregnant again.  There is no motivation, no personal responsibility anymore.  This is why I'm looking for a new job.  Or maybe just build myself a hole in the ground in Montana.  I don't think that JMP has such a bad idea.  ;)

I had no idea you lived in my neighborhood!  ;D

Kelly, my cat is totally in agreement with you!

signed,

The butler.

As the person who is beaten into submission every morning to get up at 6 a.m. to split a can of cat food between 3 of them, I feel your pain.

 ;D

I have only one boss-cat in my house, but the general effect is the same as having a dozen!

signed,

The Butler.

The man is a fool, and an absurd one too. I think the fact that he is so obviously a puppet and at the beck and call of his administration means that all those hard-nosed right wingers in America have far more power than anyone ever should have. I also worry about his use of religion as a tool to direct the masses. Scary stuff.

Just don't start me on pollution again, Witch, as I'm an active campaigner with Greenpeace and it makes my blood boil. I will say this though, that when I did go out canvassing and spoke to some Americans (Mormons on a mission to save us poor rebrobate Brits from ourselves) that they are frighteningly close minded about environmental issues. Seemed to think my passion for what is, after all, the gift their god gave to mankind (not mine cos I'm pagan through and through) a joke. Speaking to some other Christians that I know they think it's because such fundamentalists believe that god will swoop down and save us all so it doesn't matter that we are destroying the planet!  ??? (Good sites, by the by.)

Dammit, I know not all Yanks (sorry if it offends) are that way, so why did I have to find the ones wearing blinkers? Grrrr...

Z.Z./Kelly: I have 4 cats all of which rule me with an iron paw. Yesterday I had a vole on my stairs which I nearly trod on, and this morning there was another offering on the kitchen floor. I'm not entirely certain if this isn't their way of making me know that they are savage killers and will rip my face off if I don't give 'em meat instead of the accursed biscuit.

And you're soooo right, they have staff.

Well, mine is a disappointed ratter ( Maine coon) and since I don't have rats in the house and he doesn't go out (too much traffic round here) he has to make do with the occasional spider, and my ankles!

And laeshanin, I so agree with you  about religious fundamentalists of all types and religions - they are totally unable to see anyone's viewpoint but the right one - theirs!  It's a total waste of time and energy trying to open their minds to a new thought, they have no capacity for them!  I think the powers that be should get together and devote resources to building a huge space ship, then herd all religious fundamentalist leaders on board with their most ardent supporters, then blast them off into space to "seed the universe"!  (At the current stage of space technology, I doubt if the universe would suffer much!)

Yeah, and as they wouldn't have FTL drive then all those Ark ships could be left behind when we develop proper technology. Good bloody riddance.

And they'd think they were spreading the gospel according to X, Y and Z!  Of course, they'd probably just have a civil war aboard the ship and kill each other off anyway!  ROFL

My last job was with State Social Services,   and then they decided to have a budget cut,  so they eliminated 130 jobs in social services so they could give more money to the clients -- the ones with 8 kids from 8 different baby daddies,  who never had a job in there life except selling drugs.   And after being 52 years old and out of work for a year I can't even get any more unemployment.    Great country we live in.

And while intelligent, hard-working people who have perhaps one or two intelligent, hard-working kids who will grow up to contribute to society cannot afford to have more of the same, these kids you refer to will no doubt grow up to emulate their parents, and so on, until in the end there will be no decent, hardworking people left around to support them!  And thus the world will end, not with a Bang! but with ten trillion little whimpers!

Even though I'm actually on state benefits, I agree with you! (I'm currently trying my hardest to get better so I can work next year, and am doing voluntary work and going to college in the meantime to build up my skills).

People like my own mother make me sick... she won't do anything, and spends all her time drinking and smoking. My youngest siblings are in care, and the other one is constantly being arrested. There's no reason she can't get a job, but she thinks she's too good to work. I want to work, but know if I tried now I'd end up in hospital again.

There's nothing wrong with receiving help when you actually NEED help. When my first husband left me, I was a stay at home mom with a 2 and 4 yr old, no income of my own. I had to apply for food stamps and to this day, (10 yrs later) it is the single most humiliating experience I've had. It's hard for me to believe that people not only willingly go through the system, they live off of it. I started doing temp. work at minimum wage, commuting over an hour each day to get to work, so that I could build up my clerical skills (I had worked retail previous to having children). Some people thought I was nuts. Half of my wages went to paying daycare and of course as soon as you start earning ANY money, the system cuts back your benefits. It's ludicrious because how does that actually encourage anyone to stand on their own two feet? Financially I would have been better off to stay at home with my kids and receive a hand out from the government. After 2 years of temp work I found a permanent position as an office manager for the company I now work for and was so thrilled when I could do without government aid. The system penalizes a person trying to actually get ahead. I do not begrudge anyone who receives assistance and needs it but it really burns me to see people who are more then happy to sit on their butts and do nothing to help themselves. Our government needs to do more to make people self-sufficient, including education and reasonable daycare.

edit:  As for the Mormons that were mentioned in the above posts, I live in Idaho which has more Mormons per capita then any other part of the country, including Utah, which is suppose to be the "Mormon Capitol". I know exactly the right-wing, conservitive attitudes you were dealing with and it's not pretty. I apologize to anyone that might offend. I myself am a Christian but cannot get behind the kind of intolderance that the Right has so embraced.

Danni, you have been doing great, please don't rush it, it will do far more harm than good. The way you pulled yourself out of the mire is admirable, your daughter will be proud of her mom. As Kelly said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with people receiving help because they need it while they are trying to build or re-build their lives. You are young, you have managed (with your child's father) to build the basis of a good life for you and your little family. You are to be applauded.

After 22 years of marriage ended (it seems that I was married, but my ex-husband wasn't) and being a stay-at-home mom for 14 years, I too was thrown into the very scary reality of an unfinished education and no up-to-date work experience. I mananged to go back to University, get a part-time job, and raise my children. Luckily for me, my ex has always been a good father, and the child-support made it possible for me to stay off government help. I would have had a hard time receiving it anyway, I am not a U.S. citizen (by the time the marriage failed, we were back in the U.S., my ex is an American) Now I am a year and a half away from receiving my international license to practice, and I will go back home to do just that. By that time my youngest will be out of High School, she always liked Europe better anyways (no offense, please, this is not a slight to the United States of America and its population, just a personal choice).

Now, see, you did it the right way.  You found the system to be humilliating, you worked your rear-end off, and even though it wasn't easy and it wasn't fun, you got off of it.  Many of the families I work with would just get pregnant again.  And the "Babies Daddies" are always these drug-dealers, or hoodlems, or child molesters, or just lazy guys who have made it their life's ambition to be "Father of the Country".  They actually create several families, never marrying any of the women.  These women are always much younger, they have self-esteem issues, lack of education, whatever, that makes them easy targets.  The guys then keep them pregnant and show up around the time these women have a check or have some groceries and they live off them and pretend to be the greatest guy in the world!  When the money is gone, the food is gone, or they get bored, they go off to family #2, and it starts all over again.   >:( >:(  I wish this behavior was against the law!! 

Aint society grand, eh? But it is one we have created, all of us, as we play into the materialistic side of life. Those people on the lower echelons are wannabes. They see all the stuff they are not able to have (advertising, TV and whatever) or afford, and get to thinking they deserve those things by any means they can. Our money grabbing, oil guzzling, land destructive ways have bred a new scary variety of Homo Sapiens that don't care for anyone but themselves and can self-justify at the drop of a hat. A grow-your-own-sociopath generation... Special, huh?

Being on benefits is no fun, nor is single parenthood. I've done both (am still doing the latter), and have hauled myself up by my own bootstraps. Damn, looonnng hard work. I retrained, putting myself through Uni as a mature student, and eventually got my own house. My older daughter is off to Uni on the 24th, and my younger starts 6th Form College next week. You can do it, it just takes sheer bloodymindedness, and a willingness to graft your guts out. So good for you, Danni. More power to you.

I think it may have seemed like I was criticizing the mothrs of the 8 kids, but it was really mostly the men who want to father kids but don't want to be a father in the real sense that I was mostly critical of.  And the women are generally so down-trodden and besotted that they will tell all kinds of lies so the Social security people never find out who they are so they can force them to contribute to their children's upkeep.

I agree ZZ. We have a saying that seems to hit it right on target:

Any man can be a father, but it takes a REAL man to be a dad.

 ;D  And to know when not to be either!

Interesting. So many of you have changed circumstances through sheer hard graft. Me also, single mum, beneficiary, alcoholic. Could see I was about to lose my 12 yr old son so gave up booze - through 2nd go @ rehab, started studying, got IT degree, got full-time job. Took 10 years. But a million times worth it!  ;D

Benefit system in US sounds similar - more you earnt, more penalties in loss of benefits. Financially better to stay home and vegetate than work or study. Especially as the jobs available to single mums tend to be low paid, non fulltime, low security jobs anyway. Bizarre.

Used to believe world owed me, now I like giving back.

Am now addicted to computers.  :-\

I do criticize the mothers of the 8 kids by 8 different daddies. I have met women like that, who have low self esteem, and think that they cannot live without a man. Okay, I can have some sympathy with them; but I have been divorced for over ten years and after the first year or two, I slowly began to realize that I did not need a man to make me happy...that being happy was a choice I could make on my own.

I do think these women should be encouraged to try to help themselves more; and maybe free counseling should be mandatory for those who are obviously addicted to receiving AFDC and food stamps, and who look upon their children as their financial meal ticket. LBJ (Democrat) started the current welfare system, which seemed like a good deal at the time, but which has turned out to be an albatross around the neck of the American citizen. I totally support the idea of workfare, and think the government should make up the difference between the minimum wage job and any benefits the mother receives. At the very least, she should not be deprived of AFDC and food stamps until her children are grown or old enough to work themselves, or her income rises enough to meet the cost of living.

I think we can all agree that just handing people money without expecting them to do something to earn it, or without holding them accountable for how they spend the money has not really benefitted anybody. Oh, yes, I also think the state and the federal government should provide free or reduced daycare for children of low income families, even those where both mother and father work for a living and only get paid minimum wage. I think that's a good investment.

Unfortunately, there will always be those who feel entitled to whatever they can get, simply because they are poor or of a certain race, and can easily blame others for their own problems. That's just human nature I guess.

And by the way, lest you think me self-righteous and judgemental...I, too, have received foodstamps and AFDC. But when my husband first left me, I was asked by the social worker if I wanted to apply for AFDC. I told her I only wanted to apply for food stamps; my oldest daughter received SSI payments because she was disabled. She was shocked: she asked how I intended to support my two children and I said: Work. And I did...minimum wage jobs at first, then I lucked out and got a good job working with the State of Texas. Then I was able to go back to school and get my degree and get teacher certification.

I am currently contracted with the Houston ISD teaching reading to 8th graders who are victims of Hurricane Katrina. It was a long hard road, and it took me 15 years to get here. I won't say that if I can do it, anybody can....but I do think more people should be encouraged to try.

I find that the threat of starvation is a powerful motivating force. I call it "Work or starve". Sometimes the best policy is no policy. You'd be surprised how much more motivated people are when the alternative is starvation.

I blame the mother of the 8 kids too.  Over half my co workers where young, black,  single mother,  with baby's daddy nowhere to be found.  But they had one child,  or maybe 2,  they had gone to school or were still going to night school,  working as case work assistants,  or offcie clerks or data entry clerks,  in order to actually provide for the children they had.   And the men in the office who had children,  they may have not still been with the momma's,  but they were taking care of the kids.  Yeah a lot of the women had been on assistance,  but they managed -- which is why I wanna sma kmiss 8 kids and can't get child support cos daddy's 1 and 2 are in jail,  Daddies 3 and 4 are on drugs,  and no body knows where 5-8 went to.
The only reason I never needed assistance is cos I never had kids,  so when my husband left me I could was free as the breeze, not because I think I'm better than anyone. (Except maybe my ex sister in law with the 4 kids,  4 different exes who never worked a day in her life.)

Well JM, unfortunately, the thread of starvation might spawn worse happenstances, such as crime, exploitation, neglect, substance abuse, prostitution, etc. What needs to be happening is to allow those women to access higher paid jobs with possibility of advancement. That means education, counseling, the works. It would also help if women would actually be paid comparable wages for comparable work, not .75 cents for every $ 1.00 a man makes for comparable work.

Apathy sets in when people feel hopeless and helpless; it is the number one killer of any motivation.

Go witch! Great accomplishments, you are one of the people who beat the odds, and beat them soundly. It would be wonderful if others could be motivated by your feats, seeing that it can, indeed, be done, and realizing that good and visible results are never instantaneous.

     I don't where were they are getting the statistic of woman make 75 cents for ever dollar of a man in the same job,  because I have never had a job where the men with the same job and the same seniority have made more than me.  Since I got out of the Army I have never worked anywhere that my sex disqualified me for a certain job,  or interfered with a promotion.   I think they need to update the study,  or if it is a worldwide study break it down by country --because I really don't beleive those statistics are universal at this time.

   I think there is more appathy now than ever in the history of America.  I think that welfare is killing everybody's motivation to work.  Think I feel like getting a job and working 40 hours a week,  when at the end of the month my welfare queen  ex sister in law has just as much if not more money in her pocket as I do.   
   I also actually agree with JM,  because I think the crime rate was actually lower before people got used to the sense of entitlement.  My grandfather at the the turn of the 19th century was worse off than a lot of these people -- his father was dead,  his mother was sick and didn't speak english,  he never got a chance to go to past 3rd grade,  because as the oldest he had to take care of the family.  Did he steal Diamnons and Victola's -- no he ran errands for pennies,  picked up coal dropped from the trains to heat the house,  worked at the canning factory.  9 kids in that family -- not one of them a prostitute, junkie or criminal.   
 And prostitution has always been with us and always will,  welfare state or no.  poverty or no.  My birth mother was from a middle class white collar family,  and made her living as a call girl until she got too old to command the hight prices.   She also gave up all her children for adoption into middle class homes.

 

That's one of my pet peeves about the public assistance system.  People are punished for trying to earn money on their own, so it turns into a trap.  It's the same for disability benefits.  It almost feels like somebody designed the whole thing to make sure that the needy stay needy.  Not good.

Even worse, the Department of Health and Human Services has to spend fantastic amounts of money administering this complex system, to the point that only 10% of the funds the department spends actually end up in the hands of the needy, and a minuscule bit goes into actually distributing the money.

I would guess (without really knowing) that graft and corruption consumes only a tiny portion of the other 90% of the department's budget.  The rest goes to pay for all the folks and facilities that are required to make sure somebody isn't trying to cheat the taxpayers.

I have my notions about how to fix it.  Basically, we could pay a minimum living stipend to everybody whether they need it or not, and raise taxes to balance it out; but that silly idea would never get past the legislature in any country that has popular elections.  It would offend conservatives because of the idea of Big Welfare and even higher taxes; it would offend liberals because it cuts them off from the opportunities for demogoguery that get them elected; and it would offend everybody because the idea of paying welfare benefits to rich folks really goes against the grain.

Nevertheless, I like the idea.  It puts needy folks on the same ground as Donald Trump and Bill Gates; no stigma associated with public assistance.  It eliminates the vast majority of the costs of administering the welfare system, so the increase in taxes might actually turn out to be a decrease after all the dust settles.  It provides a solid foundation for all us working stiffs who are one paycheck away from disaster.  Tying it to citizenship would eliminate problems with illegal immigration; it provides a very strong incentive to become a legal immigrant.  And it makes sure that the truly needy are taken care of.

Thank you, I was working out ways to say some of this but nothing sounds as concise and clear as you make it here. In my volunteer years with Womens' Refuge and Rape Crisis, this is exactly what I saw and experienced. Powerlessness. No resources. Apathy - a kind of stasis.

The adult women students who attend out pathway and preparation courses often acquire life skills out of all proportion to expectation, in addition to their course content. You can visibly see them growing as individuals. Fascinating.

Thank you again. It was about finally taking responsibility for myself, no-one was ever going to come and save me, no white knights, no nothing. I lost 20 years to drink & drugs but I'm just grateful I have some brain left and can still learn. I'm 48 next birthday and have just started learning Java programming as I feel I might like a career change at some point. ;) Ain't life grand?

I like the idea immediately because of course it would mean women at home looking after children, where they are not on a benefit, will be paid for the work they do. They (you know, they, the grey people) talked here a while back of having a universal benefit rate, for sickness, disability, solo parents, old age etc. Then individuals could appply for additional benefits as required eg medical or accomodation or children or whatever. The universal rate was supposed to be big enough to live on by itself. I thought that wasn't a bad idea but I never thought of applying it to everyone. I'll have to give this some consideration.

"They"  are going to give everyone a stipend worth at least the cost of living?   Where are "They" gonna get the money to do this.   If "They" are gonna support me they why should I even get a job?. 

"Give everybody a living stipend whether they need it or not, then take any money they earned that they don't need?   I'll leave out the very rich here.  I'll use my mother in law,  my self and the last two posters to this thread and JM.

So if Dr Furth,  who makes $125 dollars an hour is gonna get a government stipend of the same amount as Jude,  and JM and witch and veilchen,  but then they are gonna take away most of her money so they can afford the others,  then why doesn't Dr Furth just retire.  After all the government is giving her enough to live on.  She can even sell her house and office and move to an apartment so she won't have taxes to pay next year.  Oh geeze mom,  you can't do that,  Me and the the others was counting on your taxes to pay our stipend next year.  Too bad,  guess "they" just have to cut the payments down a little.   Geeze looks like JM's gotta get a job to pay for more barbed wire.  OOPs.  JM we gotta take you your earnings to support Jude,  witch,  Veilchen and Dr Furth.  etc etc and so one and so one,  until everyone figures they don't wanna work to support everyone else,  there is no money in the budget for anybody.    Sounds to me like the last years of the Soviet Union to me.         I know very few people who are busting there butt for the sole reason of personal satisfaction.     So maybe it would work with another(alien)  race,  but I don't see socialism or communism working for human beings.

I'm sorry, but you have, to my mind, an odd idea of what communism or socialism is about.  It isn't about nobody working, but initially it was about everybody working, and everybody's job, from the dustman to the doctor, being of equal importance to society!  And they didn't have many stay-at-home mums in the Soviet Union, but they did have universal daycare!

In the last days of the Soviet Union, no doubt these ideals began to fall apart as the crooks took over, but that tends to be what happens when empires disintegrate!

Any system that tries to equalize the wealth and to say that everyone is exactly equal is a dis- instentive to work.   Soviet Union collapsed in on itself,  and China is enforcing communism at gun point.  Under communism it isn't that everyone shares equally,  it's that everything is owned by the state.  So no matter what you do in life you will get no more than the government chooses to give you.

And I do think that every attempt to equalize wealth in this country has only succeeded in driving up prices and killing the middle class. (You raise my taxes for welfare and social security,  then I have less money to buy that cool car, and all the workers in the refrigerator factory feel the same way,  so we go on strike for higher wages,  which raises the price of refrigerators,  so then the iron works go on strike because now they need more money to buy a new refridgerator.   End result,  my husband can barely support a wife  person,  on 6 x's the income my father supported a family of 6.  Or the same house my mother bought for 8,000 dollars sold last year for $102,000)

I honestly can't say anything about Socialism,  because you are right I don't understand.   I'm not trying to be rude by this question,  I really want to know -- what exactly is the difference between socialism and welfare.
 (Not talking about socialized medicine,  I understand that -- but if the insurance industry hadn't driven up prices I don't think socialized medicine would be necessary-  only cost $30 dollars for a 4 day stay and a tonsilectomy when I was 4. Without insurance.  If you worked in some big factories you'd be able to buy insurance and then you only had to pay 5 for the hospital bill.  But the insurance company would only pay $15 more to keep costs down.  Of course this drove up the price of hospital stays.)

And I gotta say,  I much prefer discussing and debating with you all than in a lot of other groups online.  No one is calling anyone else a moron or nothing.  Exept JM that is.  I'd run and hide if he stopped insulting everyone.

Judecat, you're quite right in saying that Communism or Marxism doesn't work - just read George Orwell and you'll see why...people are greedy, and they always want more - whether that be power, goods, land or money. Those political systems are an ideology but ones that many very good ideas can be taken. Can the same thing be said of the extreme right, however? I personally have doubts if there is anything good about the extreme right, unless, of course, someone is an out and out bigot that feeds on prejudice.

Socialism is a system where by we get to make certain that the people at the bottom end of the social ladder are assisted, and that is the operative word - assistance. When I was destitute and homeless, there was never any occasion that I wanted to be nannied or taken care of. What choices I make are my own and I am the person that likes to make them about my life. I don't need some jumped up little beaurocrat to tell me how to live my life or what I have to do to improve it. I will, though, willingly pay in a small amount of money if it means that someone gets a better chance at life. Isn't that what some of my taxes are for (I'm a Brit, so things are slightly different)? Welfare and socialism are not synonymus. Welfare is a socialist idea, but it is not one that decides you shouldn't work, or help yourself.

Z.Z. says, quite rightly, that in Socialism all jobs are seen as equal. And they are, with the possible exception of those who act for a living, or sports people on phenomenal and obscene salaries. Without a dustman, society would be up shit ( :D) creek good and proper. Just because the job is less glamorous than those mentioned previously does not make it less important. Some jobs are undervalued in the society we live in, and it is that which gives me a pain in the butt.

She has a point, too, that when the Soviet Union fell apart the people who leapt in to take over were the crooks, those super capitalists who want to screw everybody... even you comrade. And that is what I hate about modern capitalist societies.

And unfortunately, ever since Her Ladyship the great Maggie T said that "There is no such thing as society", we've been going down that same road where "I'm all right, Jack and the Devil take the hindmost" is the order of the day!  And anyone who tries to tell you that the Blair Government is any different, didn't live back when even the Tories cared about the Health Service!

   Thank you for explaining.    I think that the basic idea behind welfare is also assistance,  but there seem to be many people who are content to have their hand out in this country.   That's why I'm a supporter of the welfare to work idea.    I think being in a capitalist country I missed the line where it stops being welfare and starts being assistance.

    One of the young men who refused to be evacuated from Katrina said he didn't want to go to a shelter cos there he would have to follow someone's rules and he didn't want to follow no rules.  I guess looking and stealing and living off your girlfriends welfare suited him better.  Because if you work you gotta follow rules,  and if you collect benefits there are supposed to be rules too.
   
   
  To those who think that communism is a good idea that only failed in the soviet union because of capitalist greed,  may I suggest you look at Viet nam today,  and you will see the reason that I think that communism is rotten to the core.   After 30 years of communism there is still no educational,  medical,food distribution   or sanitation infastructure.  Childreach (formerly know as the foster parent plan) is operating in Hanoi just like they are in other 3rd world countries.  What good does it do for all the workers to be equal when all off you are living in the dirt.  The workers are no better off than they were 30 years ago.  Hell back then even the Hanoi Hilton (POW camp) had plumbing.
   

Though definitly not saying that communism is a good thing, it has it's positives. East Asian countries have been and still are awfully negative about women's rights. In Imperial China this was to the degree where baby girls would be sold as slaves or abandoned to die. Even though Chairman Mao of communist China was a degenerate money worshipping bastard he had to stand up for his party to a certain extent and that included the doctrine that all people are equal. Now that China has gone back to capitalization the old trends are coming back, though obviously in a supressed manner. (Since you can only have one child, there's more sexism in baby gender preferance. Idiots, now China has TONS of bachelors.  ::))

The same goes with capitalism. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn who got written by the book First Circle gets pointed out by the fact that the trend in 1950's Russia is to call capitalism "big moneyism". (Haha, bad joke, obviously not as awesome as Pescado's original.  :) For in Soviet Russia book writes YOU, and fact points out YOU!) Capitalism is in essence "big moneyism", but that makes it sound so much worse. Just because a society "communizes" doesn't mean everyone gets 100% the same allowances.

Vietnam would probably have been no better off with Ngo Dinh Diem if it was subject to the same conditions as the Communists. After all, Diem was a ruthless religious fanatic as well as a corrupt bastard, while Ho Chi Minh was quite the more moderate of the communists:
Situation Reversed:
1) USA; a communist nation declares war on South Vietnam.
2) South Vietnam rallies on the anti-colonial spirit to defeat the Northern communists and the USA Army.
3) United Capitalistic/Oligarchial Vietnam starts killing all communists and continues to persecute Buddhists.
(This is the real problem, after a war the people are bound to be swept by hatred.)

(Just an interesting, albeit useless fact: North Korea has the purest language system on earth, as it is untainted by "foreign" influences and apart from using a alphabet, it is phonetic language which means you cannot spell it wrong unless you are a SHEEP! Not that it matters, sheep that TyPe lYk d1S are destroyed. Plus, it has one of the highest literacy rates in the world.)

Welfare is a gimped idea in that some people work out of nothing to build fortunes while others continue their repulsive journey down poverty. The full solution involves heavy mental tampering to blast into the heads of the people recieving welfare as well as their children that they MUST live a life of significance and conscience!  ;) Putting all the political issues about it aside, did not Israel grow into a prosperous economy out of virtually nothing? Is not the kibbutz in essence a communistic/socialisitc organization? With the proper background socialism has worked and in FAR more awesome ways than the good ole USA with far more unfortunate geographies and histories. The Scandinavian countries are a shining example of that.

Canada is regarded as a moderate/democratic socialist country, as my teachers often attest.

Someone may have posted this already, (http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/disaster.asp) but I thought it would cheer some people up.  Well, at least MOST of us!

Cheers,
SJ

LOL, nice one. Though apparantly true...  ;)

This has nothing to really do with this discussion,  except greed is not limited to the poor.   And it is really pissing me off.

There are several people who have gathered in online community's to make what are called siggie tags -- like the one in my icon next to the post.   And a brand new version of one the most popular graphics programs used to make the things was just released.   Retail price for the upgrade $59 dollars.   Now remember the program hasn't even been released in Europe yet it's so new.

So last night a link sweeps through the siggie tag world -- Corell is offering a FREE full download of PSP X.  Thousands of housewives,  and others who do siggie tags as a hobbie downloaded this free download.  And then when it was pointed out that someone had bought a copy and passed around that link,  that Corel would not give away a brand new version and that they all left their finger prints in the cookie jar -- they are all now crying that it's not fair -- they can't afford the update.
Now obviously 99 percent of these people are not living in poverty.  They all have computers,  they all have the previous version of the program,  many of them are paying for licences for the right to use copyright art for their siggie tags,  and they are crying cos they didn't get a free program to make pretty pictures.  Crying because "everybody" has cracked programs so why can't they.    
These are not children.  And the program will do nothing to feed and clothe there family,  it's a hobby thing.
That's a picture of greed.

i could quote the whole thing but that's a lotta space, eh?  nice post.

simshost said something a few days ago about the flawed software in human brains.  we do need to debug the software, and a good beginning would be refining the definitions.

work is not an ethic, work is a basic human need.  everybody works, but some people work at draining the system, instead of building it.  not all the drainers are on the bottom.  i'd try to flesh that out better but i have to get rested now so i can rise early and go fight my personal, indirect, battle against some of the drainers.
oh, and work is supposed to be fun.  it's a perception thing.

and what judecat just said.

Human software used to be ok, that is until they used boolprop. Or was that woolprop, or poolbrop?

Sometimes, with my totally sadistic, deranged mind I want to see some of the caning that is done in Singapore to those who dare question the righteousness of the central government. (Well, in those quite obviously areas only, we don't want a dictatorship obviously.  ;)) Caning as in literally beating with a cane. When I see a beautiful park utterly massacred with litter, my blood boils.  >:(

I think you are right hon -- The human race got woolpropped.

(Hon is a non gender specific friendly address from middle aged Baltimore to everyone younger than senior citizen -- no insult or disrespect intended.  I got flamed for calling someone Hon this afternoon.)

Oddly enough, I've been thinking this about India as well, especially since pre-birth ultrasound - many female babies have been aborted in India. What happens next generation? So many males, so few females. Hopefully that would give females more power, though I read science fiction story which proposed the opposite - that women were guarded, precious and traded as a marketable commodity instead. Oh well, no change there then.

Hey there folks
I'm finally back from my prolonged, boring vacations, and since I finally have Internet access again I promptly checked to see if anyone at the forums I visit was struck by Katrina. I hope Reg is doing OK now, she did escape with her most valuable possession after all: her life.
Being a greek and living in Greece, I'm baffled at the least by what happened over there. The (supposedly) super-power of this planet failed to respond to a natural disaster that struck its home plains? The irony of it is overwhelming, but damn it, it's not ironic at all to the thousands that are suffering right now (the dead are devoid of emotions after all, it's the living that carry the burden of their loss). Just a few months ago, the greeks responded in a way that awed many to the tsunami disaster: the fund raising by us, the common citizens, was unparalleled in our history. Will we do the same now? I honestly don't know. Yes, there are people suffering again, but...in the USA?!? The "superpower"?! I'll be honest with you: we greeks don't harvest the warmest feelings about Bush and the U.S. government, but we still have hearts and feelings. I'm sure we'll do our part in helping a fellow human out. I just hope and pray your president has suffered a big enough blow to his ego that he'll sharpen up from now on and stop playing the Universal Cop.

It also possibly explains the numbers of young men being shipped out of their home countries illegally!   If their families can afford the thousands they pay to the people smugglers, it can't purely be for economic reasons that they do this, but if there aren't enough young women in their village to go round then too many young men are likely to get into trouble fighting over them!  Seems like these countries need to stamp down hard on any kind of gender selection, just as we do in the west - not just because it's sexist and immoral, but because it's also dangerous to stability! And maybe the law should be changed, so parents are allowed one son with no financial help, or two daughters with financial assistance for the second! (Just until the balance of the sexes has been normalised, anyway!)

Wow, what a lot I had to read :D.

Judecat, unfortunately the income disparity is still very real. Just by 'googleing' it, you can come up with numerous articles about it, not to mention the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Let me state this so my intentions are entirely clear: I don't want better treatment for women, I want equal treatment. I am glad that you did not have to experience that, but sadly, the lower the income ladder, the more unbalanced the income.

Prostitution is legal where I come from, down to a Union and a Pension Plan, although pimping is not. A very sensible attitude, it decriminalizes the women and gives them the power to deal with those who wish to exploit them. If the profession (after all, the worlds oldest) is freely chosen, fine, it is after all a demand driven profession. If it is chosen because of dire circumstances, threats, intimidation, or to pay for substances the prostitute is addicted to, that is completely different. Whatever you do in your life should at least give you some personal satisfaction, it should be something you want to do, not something you have to do. Many are in this unenviable position, with almost no way out.

I know all about Baltimore and 'Hon". I almost laughed myself silly when I was driving down the parkway (Gladys Spencer Highway?) and saw the sign: "Welcome to Baltimore, Hon." That can't be beat.

The sad thing is that women are more than capable of holding their own intellectually, if only they were empowered to do so. If you read the statistics (here I go again with the statistics), the more educated the women of a country are, the lower the birth-rate, female poverty, and many other ills plagueing the human race. Note: I am not a man-hating 'fem-nazi'; I like men, I go out with men, I value everyones friendship, regardless of gender. All I want is equal treatment, I don't want anything taken away from the male population, I want women to catch up.

The interessting thing is, the human race is in a position now where it could virtually do without men, apart from keeping a few super-studs and those with high quality genes!  It hasn't yet reached the stage where it could do without women!

That reminds me, there are actually countries in which 50% of marriages result from abductions/kidnappings - I believe this was Kirghystan. Absolutely disgusting.

ZZ I definitly have to agree with you there, affirmative action is a good thing to have.  ;) The illegal "shipping" happens the other way too, rich Chinese, etc can "import" women from the poorer South-Asian countries.

Canadians don't use "Hon" very much but flaming for it is just silly, just look at the tone of the word. Actually where I used to live long time ago there was a word quite similar so I can relate - though in that case it wouldn't make sense in "Welcome to Baltimore, Hon." I would have thought it was a joke.

If anyone has seen the movie or the Musical Hairspray -- the characters are a parody of the working class women in Baltimore who call everyone Hon.   We even celebrate that parody every year in a "Hon fest."  And have pagent for the Best "Hon" of the year.       But basically,  hon is the expected polite address to ones friends and customers. 

I liked how in Germany prostitution was not only legal,  but they had medical benefits.  When I was preganant and crancky I told my 1st husband I'd rather give him 50 marks to go downtown than have him cheat on me with another WAC.  I personally think they provide a useful service -- if they are doing it voluntarily.

  I see the statistics about the in equality in pay all the time,  but I have never actually seen it in practice.  Statistics aside,  have you ever made less,  or been denied promotion to a higher paying position solely because of your gender. 
   I have never been turned down for a job because of gender,  and I have never gotten a lower starting pay,  or less frequent promotions because of my gender.  The last 3 people who beat me out for promotion had BA degrees and all I have is an AA.   2 of them were men.  The promotions   was listed as BA degree or 4 years experience.   I had 10 years experience -- both men had BA degrees and at least 10 years experience. One of the promotions I lost was to a woman who I had trained at the job,  but she had gotten a masters degree in her spare time,  so her masters trumped my experience.  Heck this past summer I've been temping for the building company where my husband is contractor,  as a laborer,  and I get payed the same as any other laborer.  Yeah the carpenters make more-  but I'm not qualified to be a carpenter.

 

Again, as Veilchen says, how lucky you are Judecat that you have never experienced pay inequality. In New Zealand male dominated careers - eg the police force - are paid higher rates than female dominated professions such as nursing, this is inequitable from the beginning. I don't know the statistics off by heart, but I do know there are far more women who are earning under the average wage than there are men. There are far more men earning over the average wage than there are women. So job by job, there may be an equality of an hourly rate - for instance in the toilet cleaning profession, but overall 'mens' work' pays better than 'womens' work'.

There are also the intangibles to consider, when women take time out from careers to raise children, of course they slip back in the experience, confidence and promotion stakes. The old boys network is alive and well, various estimates are touted but no-one really knows how many of the top jobs are passed around amongst the boys, the only agreement is that 'who you know' can still have a big impact on what sorts of jobs are available to any individual.

As a woman working in the tertiary education industry I am almost making the average wage of nine years ago and I have an IT degree. So pay inequity is alive and well in this part of the world and I suspect it is not so different anywhere else.

Something interesting I discovered yesterday (my first day of college). On the course I'm on (National Diploma for IT Practicioners - ICT Systems Support) of the 28 students, I was the only female. Even all the tutors are male. In this age of equality, I wonder why more women don't want to do computer networking? Is it just because I'm a geek?

I know that agency workers are normally paid a lot less than full time workers in jobs such as cleaning (even though they do exactly the same work) and women are more likely to be agency workers than men. Also, women are more likely to work part time (due to family commitments and such), therefore tend to be lower paid. I feel the agency workers should have comparible pay to the full time workers doing the same job, as that is causing inequality. In the higher paid jobs, you see less inequality, though you also see a lot more men working in them.

What witch said is true for the UK too. There are more women living on the minimum wage than men, and there are a lot more men earning the top wages.

Probably because most normal women avoid having anything to do with computers. Relating to computers on that kind of level tends to be mechanistic and mathematical, and not at all social, which tends to run counter to the way female brains are supposedly wired.

So basically, you're a freak.

Well, if you're a geek then I am too. I got my BA in computer science and then promptly got stuck doing helpdesk because everyone else have Master's degrees.  :P
At least I get to do some Unix support too, not just regular WinXP. We are about 50% women here though, but I am the only one so far on Unix.

I found similar gender balances all through my IT study, though probably 6-7 of 20 were usually female. We had maybe 3-4 female tutors out of 20. (Rough guesstimates over 10 years. Things did improve slightly balance wise over that time - more female students too, though still concentrated on the helpdesk side rather than the programming, and that's still dominated by high voiced pimply boys. If I ever get around to doing my research for masters, I want to measure the geek factor. Compare students from several top popular study areas, discover the gender balances over several years, survey the hapless students, then see if a geek factor in IT can be measured.

Ah yes, the part-time work, low pay, no perks, unions pretty toothless, no sick or domestic or annual leave  - or pitiful variants thereof - yes, more barriers.

Edit: Hey Danni - 27 guys to yourself? - great place to meet men, and many females don't seem to have tumbled to it! Good place to meet intelligent men too. My current partner is the best mate of a guy I did tech with 14 years ago.  :P

 8) Mmm Yup! I'll own up too.

I think brains, like many other things, operate on a spectrum. I believe you can be somewhere in between two extremes, the supposed female / male dichotomy, I use computers creatively as well as mechanistically.

In Maryland USA,  there are more young woman working than young men,  and most start theire work experience in Minimum wage jobs.  It's not a matter of the boys get higher paying jobs,  it's that the boys are refusing to work for miniume wage.   

Also wonder if they are including high payed jocks in the statistics.   I think if you leave out teen aged McD workers on one end and high payed jocks on the other -- I think the figures would even out a bit more.

Pay equality is a myth. Women are still, in many situations, in the worst paid jobs, and I will agree with Judecat that it is because it is known that men will not lower themselves to accept that level of pay. So they're left to people who will, usually women who have no qualifications and/or young children that need them at home. They may even be single parents, and trying to get away from that berated welfare system. You have only to look at statistics to realise just how little the gender gap has decreased and that there is a glass ceiling for women. There are still more men at the top of their league than women, and until our primary role of "caregiver" is challenged I do not see that changing in the near future. Who here, as a working single mother, has had to fight to take some time from work for her child if said child was ill? Or if time was needed to go to an important event? Things like this are seen as disruptive to companies (public or otherwise) and show a severe lack of commitment by the parent to their employer. After all, isn't that where your first loyalty should be? This is one of the reasons we are still at the bottom the pile; our ability to reproduce. That and industry and society dislike change, no matter how slow it is.

It isn't just single mothers who have to take time of work if their child is sick!  In most families, the wife is still expected to do this, mainly because her earnings are lower and therefore the family budget suffers less, but also I think it's still because it's seen as their role!  And employers tend to be more understanding if a woman takes time off for a sick child than if a man does!

Interesting arguments about payscales and glass ceilings, though!  Which sex on the whole leave school better qualified?  In the UK teenage girls still do better at school than boys, and mostly I would suspect, are more willing to start work or go on to college than boys, yet the minute they take time out to have a baby they're penalized!  As if it's women's fault that they are the sex that gets pregnant!  (In an ideal world, couples would be able to take pregnancy in turns,
but unfortunately it isn't an ideal world!)

But what I see on the street with the guys who won't lower themselves to accept minimum wage aren't working at all,  and it's not just teenagers.

State of Maryland has a program called Temporary Ememergenycy Housing and Parmacy program.  There is also a straight standard   They give you $100 a monthand  a pharmacy card to get your prescriptions for$  3  dollars each,  and free clinic.   
  Ask some of the 40 and 50 year old males  why they don't get a job, " well all I can get is minimum wage and that's an insult,  I ain't to N word"   (And then after I get their benefits typed into the computer they wanna know what I'm doing Tonight.)
  Now the straight pharmacy card you can make over 10,000 a year and still keep the card and the clinic visits -- just costs $5 instead of three.   So rather than work at a job they feel is demeaning they end of living in a substandard boarding house and pan handling cigiarettes on the street.  Or living home with their retired on a pension momma's.

Girls get out of school and get low paying jobs,  guys get out of school and refuse to work unless they are getting enough to satisfy their ego.

In this country that's what doing away with apprenticeships back in the 70's, and raising the School Leaving Age to 16 at the same time, caused!  16 year olds would even expect to work on a building site labouring and get the same pay as a strong, fit 30-year-old with a skill like bricklaying!  And a 16 year old may have loads of energy when he gets to work in the morning (if he hasn't been up half the night clubbing) but whereas the 30 year old will still be going strong at 3 in the afternoon, the 16 year old is totally knackered by lunchtime!

And those who won't work, they either, as you say, live off an elderly parent, (and I don't include those decent sons who give up a future to look after one) or they find a woman who is fool enough to support them!  (The low pay of the unqualified may be demeaning for them, but obviously they aren't demeaned by living off a woman who can scarcely afford to support herself and her kids!)

Until he day that women in that situation, supporting a bone idle sponger, all turn around en masse and throw them all out into the street, this situation will continue!

Well said! And that is part of our responsibilities as women. My part is in education, like working with partners of men doing the 'living without violence' course (albeit years ago), volunteer work at womens' refuge and so on. I'm not an official volunteer at the moment but I get a lot of 'woman sharing' at my workplace and with the students.

The students. It lifts my heart to see the young women who have a sense of themselves so clearly, assume they are equal to men, naturally assume the right to make decisions about their lives and are making sensible choices about study and lifestyle. Of course not all are like this, but even the students with baggage learn something of community and caring and options. Watching someone become a responsible adult over a couple of years is a powerful thing to see.

Not sure that I agree with that first part, but only because men taking time out to go to a school event are looked upon as heros whereas it's just a necessary part of the daily grind for a woman. Possibly a tad cynical, but hey... I think that either gender are frowned on if you take time off for any reason, but especially if a child is sick. Family Friendly Policy? Please, do me a favour  :-X I work in Social Services and the HR people know it exists (so do the union) but no-one has ever seen the bloody thing. I believe it to be a work of fiction.

And I've seen the frilly lipped look in action for pregnancy. Women are considered to be a liability. Still!

Yes, girls perform better across the board. It's called the XY Divide and is a known phenomena. You look at any school, or learning disabilities home and you'll see that far more males are intellectually challenged. They also have a higher rate of attrition from birth as well as higher levels of physical disability. Don't it make ya glad you got the double 'X' (unless you got two defective and are colourblind etc)?

There's concern in New Zealand about boys not performing as well as girls in education. In fact, boys' achievements haven't changed, circumstances, customs and educational practices have changed, allowing girls to reach more of their potential.

I wonder if that's what the patriarchy were really always scared of.  8)

PS> The 'frilly lipped look' love it to pieces Laeshanin!
PPS: And the older the person, the frillier it gets.  :D

Yeah, because if a female does well it has to be because "she's had more help and the system favours girls".  ::) I would try banging my head or chewing on the table but it's a pointless exercise. Males are, sadly, evolutionarily designed to have shorter attention spans, less communication capability (and they do, still, go "uug"), and be driven to shag the youngest most fecund female. Plus there's the whole peacock tail feather thing as soon as you get them mixed with girls. And I like men, I really do.

My, didn't you know you can't get pregnant if you are over the age of thirty? For a start, who's gonna want to have sex with a wrinkly?

Gotta ask, though, completely off topic, what's happening to the thread as it's gone very quiet? Are people playing the new EP? And is it any good, and should I waste my hard earned or am I going to have a struggle to get the damn thing to work?

Well, guess people are tackling the EP, don't know about playing it yet!

I'm not buying till October 'cos I made a pledge not to buy in this financial quarter. Mind you, I've just about reached 2nd generation on my new custom everything n'hood. There's no way I'm risking that till I know it's safe to go downtown at night. ;)

Anyone heard from Reggiko lately?
Wonder how she's doing, hope she found things more or less how they ought to be and can get things sorted out quickly...

p.s. though I haven't been to this thread lately,  I loved the squirrel.
I watch CNN and saw at least one of their reporters (Anderson Cooper) doing their job as well as taking part in rescue efforts. 

No, she said she wouldn't have Internet access for a while, I guess we're just hanging around chatting till she gets back. :)

It's also worth noting that males generally form the outliers in most categories. This is because males are more expendable and thus used nature's test dummies. Some tests work our great, others....not so great. Females tend to run closer to the average. Just as when you test something out, you tend to choose something expendable to try it on, nature does the same thing, and males are expendable. Expendability is hardwired into being a male, and as such, we tend to be the ones who do the crazy crap that will get us killed. Because we're expendable, you don't really need that many of us.

I guess I have a male brain, since my best subjects are maths and IT. If that makes me a freak then I guess I shouldn't post the pic of me in my glasses, sitting in computer class taken 3 years ago...

So there are more men spread to the ends of a bell curve, with females more concentrated in the centre?

That would seem to be the case, though I hadn't really thought about evolution as a bell curve even though it is a statistically proven thingy.

J.M.'s right. In the great plan (life), males are expendable because you just don't need that many to fertilise females. All the energy in procreation goes into rearing young, and the general rule of thumb is that females do that. There are some exceptions (aren't there always?), but the hairy ones tend to get away scot free when it comes to the kiddies. We are also symmetrical, genetically speaking (XX) and men aren't. Check nature out carefully; she do love the old symmetry.  :)

sorry, all the way through this topic, I keep remembering the old feminist bumper sticker, 'they sent one man to the moon, why not send them all?'.

 ;D

My current favourite is "So many men... So many reasons to sleep alone."

My ex-girlfriend would love that bumper sticker. She asks me all the time why I married my husband.

Not all men are wasters... just some of the motherf**king bastards!  ;D

As far as men -- well it's just two bad they have 2 heads and only enough blood to supply one of them. 

Judecat, no, stop! It would be bad to turn this into a thread full of sex-starved, boot-wearing, shaven-headed, ultra-feminist loons with penis envy... We must be caring of the poor little darlings that are so misunderstood. Unfortunately, mysogyny (did I spell that right?) is alive and well in the 21st century, and I could barely get my hat on (local saying) when I read about so-called rescuers' (original thread) in NO who would not take some young women into their boat because the women wouldn't show their tits. My, doncha just wish you could get a big knife handy?

I'm not sex starved or shave headed.  ;)  Just very aware that the men in my life need looking after.    ::)   
When I first met him,  after an hour I finally had to ask him what color are my eyes to get him to look above neck level -- and he's one of the good ones

Edited cos I can't type

I used to sometimes say, 'they won't talk back to you, you know'...

Or when they ask what's your name I tell them -- the right one is Jude and the left on is ith.

I dunno, I would think this would be a tactical advantage. An enemy that isn't watching your eyes will not be able to notice when you are about to strike. Always watch the eyes, the eyes tell you when they will strike. It's important to catch that subtle tightening that occurs just before the attack.

Of course, then they complain that I'm boring into their skull like that, because obviously they know I'm watching them. Oh, yes. Their feeble tricks will not work on me.

What are you doing JM with men looking down at you in that way?

 8)  ;D

It is disconcerting to say the least, when men talk to your breasts. I always have the slightly edgy feeling I've spilled sauce down my front or something. I keep glancing down, to see what has them so mesmerised.

The thing that just kills me now, is that men talking to my breasts don't know I have prostheses. I have an almost hysterical desire to slip them out, hand them to the man and say, 'here, have a play if you like'. I think I would die laughing. Can't you just picture it?

I dare you to do it... and then post their reaction :P

I have almost non existant breasts at the moment (bah, a year ago they were 40 E, now they're 36 A... I stopped breastfeeding :P) but most men look in that general area because they don't like looking up at me, being as short as they are :P Luckily my adoring partner likes me just as I am :)

I don't. Women, however, complain that I am glaring at them, and tend to wish I'd go back to looking at their breasts like normal men. Some people clearly don't know what they really want.

Not unsurprisingly, I'm very much a face person. I pay very little attention to breasts. I notice faces, from the dumb look you always have, to that look of realization as you realize the internal organ I am showing you is yours.

Sounds good to me :P If I'm wearing my heels you don't mind looking up at me then? :P

Well, it's either that, or I'll develop a fixation on looking at your spleen. I'm sure you'd find that disturbing, too. It bothers people even more when I do this, perhaps because they realize subconciously that the point at which my eyes are focussed on happens to be INSIDE them.

And you know, there's nothing more priceless than the look on someone's face as you show them their spleen, and they realize, "Oh my God, that's MINE!"

My spleen is enlarged... I've had plenty of doctors look at me already, which means I wouldn't be bothered at all :)

Your social events must be kind of messy.  ::)

I am not Mormon, but I do have something to say in their favor.  They are very family oriented and whenever the head of household is unable to work, their family is cared for.  They are completely supported by their Ward, until they can get back on their feet again - but during the other times they are expected to tithe a specific portion of their income.  They encourage large families, but they also help send those children to college when the time comes.  The other thing that I can't help but admire and at the same time find a bit disturbing, is their lifelong commitment to learn, practice, plan and survive a World-wide devastation of Biblical proportions.  I am serious, they hold classes on survival through preparation technique and stockpiling of reserves.  Did you know that you can survive on grass clippings put through the blender with water?  Since they are also largely to thank for the mass volumes of Genealogy data to which we have access for researching our family trees throughout the world, I have little to complain about in their beliefs.

Greg,

In college I was accused of being just a tiny bit in favor of Socialism whenever I wrote a paper - but I had a notorious family name, so I could not escape the obvious bias.  I have always liked this approach, though you do need an administrator you can trust and who will be equitable and above corruption.  Herein lies the real problem and the reason this plan would struggle as a viable option.  However, as an example I will use my husband's grandfather - the most honorable man I have ever known.

Just before the Great Depression hit here in the US, Grandpa achieved his goal of becoming a Fire Fighter.  It wasn't the life dream of a little boy, just a practical approach to the times.  He had worked hard towards this goal both for himself and his younger brothers, who would follow his example.  He was very patient and as soon as the City announced openings, he applied, took the examine and passed the physical requirements.  He was a newlywed and though children were not yet in the picture, they soon would be and before the Depression ended.

His two brothers by this time, both had families of their own, but were not yet on the Fire Department as was planned.  Naturally, the FD like everyone else had to put a freeze on new hires - at least current jobs were not cut, for which so many had suffered this loss.  The two brothers worked at whatever and as many jobs as they could get, but it was still not enough to support them and their families.  After much consideration of logistics, Grandpa came up with a plan and called a family meeting with his two brothers.  Since he had a secure job with benefits he proposed that they should all pool their earnings and support their families as a unit.  They did not all live together, but there would be no squabbling about 'mine' and 'theirs' - it was now 'ours' - and though no one would go without basic needs, they all understood that necessities now had a new meaning.  Since Grandpa was the eldest and had the most 'money sense', he agreed to handle all their finances.  He paid all their bills, put food on the table, bought the clothes they needed and paid the doctor for services when they were ill.  

I am happy to report that they all made it through the Depression with self-esteem intact and renewed enthusiasm for their future.  As soon as the FD was hiring again, Grandpa's brothers were able to apply and both were hired.  Even though this is a small-scale example, this idea, in my belief, does work.

Yeh, but look whose eyes are behind those glasses!  Danni, you don't have a male brain, you just think like a man should think if they could and it drives them crazy.  That doesn't make you a freak, it makes you powerful.

:P If you want to see that pic, go to http://blackboard.gateshead.ac.uk... I'm the one in lilac... ;)

One of my favoirite places to be a hobo was Salt Lake City.   If you were down and out you showed up at a certain wearhouse,  and you got put to work at whatever kind of work you could do -- and 8 hours later they gave you voucher to pay for whatever you needed at the time,  food,  shoes,  a coat.  If you were down and out with a family they even gave you a decent place to stay.  Not like social services where you have to jump through hoops to get free money -- they figure you wouldn't show up if you could do better,  and didn't strip you of all pride to get help.   Was run through the temple and not the government.

No no no no no. That's the only thing they're good for!

Joking, of course.

They're also good for opening pickle jars.  ;D

(I really hope my boyfriend never sees this...)

Yes, but have you ever seen your own spleen, as an external, instead of an internal, organ?

Lovely in lilac ;)
We use bloody Blackboard here at tech. Wish they'd get Moodle, Blackboard is a pig of a thing.

At the defense of booby-staring men, sometimes the woman kind of "deserves" it with the type of shirt she is wearing. Take the girl in Judecat's avatar, for instance. In my opinion, she is showing a lot of clevage, and I assume that is a thin top. She'd attract a lot of attention from both men AND women. However, if the woman is wearing regular clothing, like a shirt or sweater, then I think it is the man's fault.

Personally, most of the men I know don't stare at my chest. It is sort of a stereotype that I haven't really experienced. Believe me, a lot of my friends tend to be male.

I don't think because a woman has a low cut summer top that she is asking to be staired at.   I do ren faire re-enacting,  and some of those dresses have very little coverage.  Got so tired of the guys stairing that I payed to have the all my undershifts modified so that I have cotton and small ruffles 4 or 5 inches above the neckline of the dresses.   

Just as I don't think that girls who wear mini skirts are looking to be attached,  molested or raped.

Anyway -- when I met hubby I was pumping gas in a full service  gas station,  wearing jeans,  tee shirt,  and jump suite (the regular guy model -- not the female one).  It's not my fault I didn't look like a guy.  Geeze even had my hair died red with purple spikes -- that should have been more interesting to look at than grey covered boobies

I disagree. Patterns of dress which call attention to oneself from unpleasant elements *ARE* asking for it. If you walk into a bad neighborhood dressed in flashy jewelry, you are going to be (a) robbed or (b) mistaken for a pimp. These are just things you don't want to do around certain company. On the other hand, maybe you *ARE* looking for trouble. That's good, too. The world needs fewer rapists, and some bait will do a good job drawing them out so you can ventilate them. If that's your plan, go for it. Just remember: Life's a bitch, and then you're raped by wild boars!

I think you misunderestimate the crudeness and simplicity of the typical male mind.

Yeah,  but the only difference between me and you in one of those greasy gas station jumpsuits is the hair,  and the lumpy chest area -- and some fat boys got just as much lumps as me.

And real rapists don't care what you are wearing -- even fatigues and combat boots don't slow them down,  unless you happen to have your M-16 handy.

Realistically, real rapists tend not to be those weirdos who stalk you in dark alleys anyway, unless you live in a very nasty place. Still, anything which draws attention to you as a soft target is a bad thing, unless that's your plan. And you should always be prepared, naturally. There are nasty people who will otherwise kill you, rob you and toss your unraped corpse in a ditch all the same, which makes the difference rather immaterial. Just remember: Always wear body armor, and always be ready to kill somebody. Guns, knives, or your bare hands, choose whatever fits your physical condition, situation, and personal tastes best. I personally prefer to kill with my bare hands. Disembowelling someone bare-handed is just so much more visceral.

I prefer castration without anistesia myself.   Army didn't wanna give medics firearms,  so I got to be pretty good with a scaple.   Of course now I'm old I'm looking for a riffle with a good scope.

edited to add -- The rapists were more likely to be the guy I danced with in the EM club,  or the guy I beat at bowling,  or maybe the one I truned down for a date becasue I had plans that night,  or the guy who bought me a drink at the Rod and Gun club.   Not a scarey stranger -- but not my good friend either.  My friends knew if they asked me when I was in the right mood I wouldn't say no.  Some of them took me up on it,  some never did.       But the ones I had to watch out for were the aquantences.  specially the ones who tried to get me drunk like that was gonna do them some good.   They soon found out I am one mean little drunk.     

As a woman blessed (?) with more than her fair share of mammary (let's not go size, cos when I was feeding babies the damn things came into the room before me) tissue I can honestly say they have been the bane, and the joy, somewhat perversely, of my life. It hasn't even made any difference if I was fat, or thin, they are always the only thing a bloke looks at. However, I have found, for some men, breast size correlates closely to IQ. That is, the bigger the boobies, the smaller the brain. This is not good. At least for them... This involves me having to take charge of a situation and deriving some enjoyment from total humiliation. Spleen removal has been an option, J.M., as has heart, but eyes are good too.

And I agree, Judecat. Most rapists are known briefly to their victim, though sometimes the rapist will believe they've got a relationship where none exists. It's about power too, not sex, and not if a woman "deserves" it because she dresses in something skimpy. Damn, I used to dress in things that were barely there and still had respect from my male friends. The others I didn't give a fig about because they were only there to buy booze.  ;D

JM, you should be going for the liver anyway, not the spleen - There's at least a market for the livers.

I'm an eye person, specifically direct eye contact.  I can make men very uncomfortable by just maintaining my focus this way.  I have noticed though, that men can't talk and maintain eye contact at the same time - Why?  Is this considered multi-tasking, like when they try talking and driving at the same time?

Judgecat - I would love to live in one of the vaults they have in the mountains there in Salt Lake. 

My first husband would look at the wall/tv/stare off into space, anything other then look directely at me when talking (now you know why he was my first husband!), so I was actually somewhat uncomfortable with how when I met the man I am now married to, made direct eye contact at all times when talking to me. The reason for the unwavering eye contact? He said when he was a younger man, he was talking to a very beautiful woman who suddenly, but very gently,cupped his chin in her hand, raised it up, looked directly into his eyes and said, "no matter what you say, they won't talk back", lol. He said he never forgot that and always made sure to address a woman "from the neck up" from that point on. :D

Edited


Sorry about the whole post -- It was typed under the influence of Ambien,(sleeping pill)  and I have no idea what I was talking about.   Maybe I ought to type like that on the official BBS

Look at this article that appeared (unsolicited) in my personal email:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State

An Objectivist Review

by Robert Tracinski | The Intellectual Activist

September 2, 2005

It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster. If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild. Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself included--did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting. But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster. The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by  Hurricane Katrina.
This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has the story wrong. The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view. The man-made disaster is the welfare state. For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency--indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New  Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?
To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington Times story: "Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on. "The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire.... "Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders. "'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,' she said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will.' "

The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad. What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome? Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them? My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied
architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished.) What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels--gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then gave me an additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails--so they just let many of them loose. There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa. There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.
All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters--not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency. No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan.
The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism. What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.
But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do hey worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them. The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans.
 
And that is the story that no one is reporting.

I know you are kidding - Girl, this is the age of handheld technology! ~wink~

I really hope the author is alone in feeling that was in any way, shape, or form, objective.  I'd be pretty worried if that's what passes as objective journalism, these days ..

I agree. It was a well thought out theory, possibly even a true one. But, in no way objective and most likely unprovable. We can analyze demographic statistics all day long, but can not know the motivations behind people's actions. Not definitively. I would say that the welfare system in America is broken and tends to spawn its own continuing problems in circular fashion. But, this is my opinion. Not objective fact. We can sit here and point out all of the problems with the system, and for everything we find, we could find someone else to point out why this is the most efficient way to do this. We can find statistics to prove our point. Someone else will find different ones.

My biggest problem with this 'objective view' though was how some of the descriptions sounded so very like, and yet very unlike me.
I am poor. I am not on welfare, though I could be. I live in a mobile home that is way too small for even my small family. We struggle to make ends meet and do not always manage very well. (For people who wonder what I am doing here if I am truly poor, my Sims games were gifts from family and if my internet connection was more than $5.99 a month I would probably have to cancel it. I say this only to make a point) I take pride in my family. I take care of my home (crappy as it is). I take care of my family. I do not steal. If a natural disaster were to come through where I live I would be one of those that could not leave, because I have nowhere to go, and no money for a hotel. It is not my nature however to take advantage of people in crisis. I would not use chaos as an excuse to get away with inexcusable behavior. When I see people who need help, if I can, I help them (even though I may be in need of help as well).

Back to your essay (not article), you may have a point, but do not call it objective. 

Actually, objectivism is a "philosophy" (cult imo) started by Ayn Rand. It's pretty much libertarianism taken to extremes. No one is ever unlucky, everyone started out equal, no one gets sick, no one has anything unexpected happen, etc. You deserve what you get, and how much property you own is the measure of your success and even worth as a human being.

It's often espoused by pseudo-intellectuals who think they're in any way "deep" or "practical" for ignoring what really goes on in peoples' lives and for not having any compassion whatsoever.

I have returned! We just got our phone lines and internet access back today. Things at my house were very good compared to what most people endured. We've been doing clean-up and trying to get our lives as back to normal as possible.

On another note (It's a long story), I have had to start anew with my game, so all challenges, etc, are gone. I got Nightlife even though UPS wouldn't deliver here. I drove to a nearby town about 40 miles away and bought it. I'm in the process of re-introducing hacks and custom content.

I want to extend heartfelt thanks to all who kept me in their thoughts and offered support and encouragement.

Maybe I just don't get it, but your reference confuses me. Ayn Rand was a supporter of selfishness as a virtue. According to her writing anything is acceptable if it furthers your own pursuits. I do not understand what this has to do with objectivity, or lack of it. If you explain I would appreciate it.





Welcome back Reggikko. Glad to hear from you.

Welcome back Reggikko.  Sorry to read about starting over with your game, but you are well which is the most important thing.

People *DO* deserve what they get. If unexpected things happen, you should have expected this. Life's a bitch, and then you're raped by wild boars. But it's not how much you own, it's how much you own as compared to how much you actually want. If you don't care about owning anything, then it is no worth to you. Conversely, it's not how much you own, but how well you can keep it in the face of people trying to take it from you. If you can't defend what you own, you won't own it for long.

Welcome back! Glad things are pretty ok for you, have fun with Nightlife (but check out the other threads before you start playing to see what works or not with regards to hacks and what problems you may encounter with the game in general)! Welcome back to the "real" world, hehe!

Welcome back Reggiko, glad to "see your voice" again!!! So sorry about the loss of your stories, but you are blessed with imaginative creation talant - you'll overcome...:).

REGGIKKO!!!! *Huge Hugs* Glad your back... hope things aren't too bad.

I've loved all your stories up to now... I guess you'll have to make new ones? *hopes ;)*

I think there may well be a smidgeon of truth in that essay, but I can see plenty of distortion in it too. After all, I live in the UK which is known for its extensive welfare system and while there are troublesome areas, and people, it is not the welfare state that has caused this. There has always been a part of society that is less than salubrious, and there have always been murderers, thieves and poor. Society was a damn sight less safe two hundred years ago than it is today, and violent crime common. Mugging is not, contrary to belief, a new thing and has been around in all its nasty glory for quite some time.

I wonder if what we're seeing here is the power of the media and journalism? We live in an century were news is the norm and everyone has instant access to it (well, in the developed nations). That news is edited to within an inch of its life, so who knows what we're really seeing or hearing. Could be anything they bloody well want to feed to us! :P Or is my paranoia showing?

Welcome back Reggikko, glad to hear your life is beginning to return to normal. It might even seem extra good for a while, gives you an extra appreciation of what you have I reckon. :)

So now Reggikko's back, where in hell are Zephyr Zodiac and Veilchen?

Yes. Healthy paranoia I reckon.  ;D

note that the major "news" source cited is the washington times.  that newspaper is owned by and operates in accordance with the philosophy of the reverend sun myung moon, who claims to be more awesome than pescado claims to be.  well, actually, moon claims to be the messiah, and to have saved the souls of hitler and stalin, so i guess that would trump even some pretty good programming skills.

Ha! The thing is there are many more Korean-Christian sects like that out there, it's just that they don't go international. ;)
At least Moon doesn't go around beating the living daylights out of people in subway stations because they didn't listen to him preach.

Cheers. Nice to know that I'm still on the right track.  ;D

Hear hear laeshanin ;) Remember, Lords are just as likely to commit arson as those on benefits ;)

More likely probably -- they are hopeing to collect on the insurance

That's true :)

*goes into stereotyping mode* it's only some of the Chavs/Charvas/Scallies on benefits that cause problems... and not all of them, by any means.

Yay! It's so nice to see you and hear that everything is getting back to normal (assuming that the fact you can get back at your Sims means everything's good)

We missed you,
I've been holding off on my last E-mail challenge waiting for you... ;)

My Internet access is feeble these days, so I can only catch up once a week, which leads me to bring back an old note:


Nah, I didn't propose anything that extreme.  Your arguments would make sense had I proposed a totalitarian Marxist state, but I was just talking about adjustments to the existing welfare system: "...pay a minimum living stipend to everybody whether they need it or not, and raise taxes to balance it out..."

We have to acknowledge that we already have a welfare system and it's not going to go away.  For better or for worse, our society in the USA today has rejected "work or starve" as an option; and the more authoritarian European Union is even more adamant about that point.  I don't see any reasonable path that would get us to a totally laissez-faire "work or starve" system anywhere in the world.  We might postulate a world-wide dictatorship, but would-be dictators haven't faired too well in human history and the few who've become notorious in their quest of totalitarian dictatorship have all advocated socialism as an economic policy.  So, welfare is here and it's here to stay.

We already try to pay a minimum living to people who we perceive as being needy, so I don't see how that scheme would discourage people from work any more than the existing system.  Quite the opposite.  It would encourage people to work by removing the penalty for not working.  If you want more than a minimum standard of living, then you'll do something to earn some money so you can buy luxuries.

The existing welfare system consumes more than half our tax money.  By eliminating the investigation of potential welfare cheating, we would eliminate the majority of the cost for delivering money to the people.  Consolidating all the complex systems (food stamps, public housing, demeaning make-work programs, medicthis, and medicthat) into one cash-based system would also fantastically reduce the cost of administering the system.  I would expect the amount we have to pay for welfare to be rather dramatically reduced without any reduction in the benefits that people receive.

I agree that it sounds incongruous to pay money to someone just to take it back in taxes; but hey, if it accomplishes our goal of caring for our people while removing all disincentives to working and cuts our welfare taxes by more than half, I'd be willing to cope with that incongruity.  ;D

Hooray!  Welcome back, reg!  ;D

At the moment I'm sitting here in my house up in Wylie (northeast Texas) wondering how to find out if my house down in El Lago (southeast of Houston) survived Rita's winds.  I'm most concerned about the fact that the house was surrounded by huge tallow trees.

They're saying that the Johnson Space Center will be open again on Tuesday morning, but the last I heard they won't even let us back into El Lago until at least Wednesday, if then.  No hotel rooms available near JSC, either.  Darn. 

Oh well, at least the "liberal leave" policy will be in effect until they get the mess cleaned up.

         I don't trust the government,  any government to make a fair distribution of the money.   I know that all the money they are taking now for Social Security tax isn't going to social security payments,  and I don't see how giving them more taxes to distribute to more people is gonna make them any more honest.
And after seeing the way the elderly,  and even the not so elderly feel about Social Security,  I really don't think Socialized everything is a good Idea.    SS was supposed to be a supliment to your pension and savings,  so that you wouldn't have to be old and poor.    But a lot of the people of the generation now retired,  decided that since they were getting Social Security,  they didn't have to save.    We saw the,  I'm gonna retire next year,  lets remodle the house and buy a new car syndrom.  These are now the people who are fussing that the government isn't giving them enough money or enough medicaid.   (those statements were made based on the behaivor and attitude of my older step siblings).  Between SS having to be the sole support of some elderly,  and the government fiscal irresponsibility,  my generation is in the position of having no SS,  and not having enough money after taxes to save for retirement,  much less buy a new car or re model a house.

I know my views are unpopular,  but I truely beleive you are your families responsibility,  not the govenment's.    I also beleive the more "help" you get from the government,  the more freedom you give up.

Which kind of leads to another unpopular oppinion,  if more people in NOLA had had jobs,  historically over the past 50 years or so,  they would have had a tax base,  and could have fixed their own levee's,   rather than have to beg government aide (the city begging,  not the citizens)

Sim host -- is that liberal leave like the state of Md -- if you have vacation time you can use it,  if not then you'd better show up.

I can't argue with the first part of that.  Given an opportunity for mischief with money, people will commit mischief.  Now, here's the neat part: the program I suggested would reduce the opportunities for mischief by eliminating the complexity of our existing welfare system.  Opportunities for mischief would be limited to creating false identities, which is less costly to investigate and report than the bazillions of things people can do under the existing system.

Still, I doubt that a significant portion of the budget for the Dept of Health and Human Services is lost to graft or corruption.  You can clearly see where they are legitimately spending the money on the facilties, investigators, and folks who staff the help desks in all the welfare offices across the country.  This grand scheme (which has zero chance of ever getting passed by Congress) would make most of those jobs and offices obsolete, so it's not something we'd want to rush into with our eyes shut.

When you venture into the discussion of socialized everything, you're moving away at right angles from what I suggested.  I'm talking about reducing the level of socialism in the welfare industry tremendously.  The government would not tell people how to spend their money or create industries to support them.  (Another flaw in the plan: some small percentage of the human population are not able to make purchasing decisions for themselves.  That's another baby we'd want to keep when we toss out the bathwater, but at a tiny scale compared to what we do now.)  Instead of establishing free clinics, pay the money directly to the people and let them make their own decisions about where to go for health care.  Instead of soup kitchens, let them decide where to buy their food.  Instead of of public housing projects, let the people decide how to spend their housing dollars.

The key point here is that I have more faith in the average individual's ability to make these decisions than in the government's ability to decide these things for them.  I also have much more faith in private industry to provide safe, comfortable housing, quality medical care, and good food and clothes at the best price. 

Take housing as an example.  If we make builders compete for those housing dollars, they'll build the best-quality housing they can for low-income families.  With government housing projects, we have all sort of mischief and even worse added cost because of the burden of writing and enforcing extremely detailed government regulations.  The trouble is that if the government does it, we need those picky regulations to determine a standard of performance for contractors.  But if private enterprise builds the housing, then the people who will be living there will be the judges of whether it's the nicest place they can afford.

"Welfare industry"? My goodness. Now I have heard everything. :P

I think it means that you can take leave if you're a liberal.  That's only half good news for me because I'm only a liberal on odd-numbered days.  On even-numbered days I wonder why the USA needs a socialized space program!  ;D

Hmm... today is an odd-numbered day.  Perhaps that's why I'm having such difficulty presenting a cogent conservative argument for my idea about a no-fault welfare program.  Ask me about it tomorrow.  For today, let's just blame the whole thing on global warming.

BTW, my name is Greg.  (Note the four-letter Anglo-Saxon monosyllable in my sig.)  SimsHost (http://www.simshost.com/) is just a hobby, one of my many crimes against normalcy.

Hey, welfare is big business, especially in the areas of health care and housing!  Never doubt the ability of people to think of ways to make a profit off of anything that the government spends money on; and the Department of Health and Human Services gets the lion's share of the federal budget.

I haven't seen any recent studies on welfare fraud, but having spent 15 years in the welfare system here as a beneficiary, I saw many in the same position as myself of course. Some people were yes, just bone idle and content to pop out another child or two to stay on the benefit, but these were amongst a small minority. The vast majority of people I encountered were concerned parents and decent people, many were only on a benefit for a few months, most worked a parttime job in addition to caring for young children, even though the costs associated with working could be high.

I suspect that for the amount of actual welfare fraud, the costs of checking and investigating would far outweigh any monetary gains. And when a prosecution is successful, how do you get blood out of a stone?

The prime way of defrauding here would be a man with a job, living with a woman receiving a benefit for being home with children. Considering that in the 80's and 90's the capitalists drove our economy into a low wage one, it is not viable for many families in the lower socio-economic bracket to subsist on one income. Having to cheat all adds to the stigma and shame of being a beneficiary of course.

But after been on the other side of the desk for 18 years,  I am of the opinion that people like you are more rare than you might like to think.     I've even seem it in my ex's family.    Ex hubby grew up poor,  mom's on welfare,  got 6 kids from 4 different men,  but Ex manages to get himself a well paying job as a longshoreman.  So does he get a house or condo for his mom and little sister to live in (the other kids were away from home by then).  Heck no,  he moves into the projects with her,  and gives her half his pay under the table.  One of the reasons he is my ex is that I turned them in.  Too many people grow up on welfare think they or their family are "entitled" to it.    If my older sis had not seen fit, or been able to take care of mom when we got grown,  then I would surely not have run off to be a bum like I did.   That's basically what I ment that you should take care of your own family.

And again -- I don't trust the government with money.   For instance -- do you know what State Governments are doing,  and being allowed to do with the tobacco settlement money-- that they sued to force the tobacco companies to pay for medical care for smokers -- The Feds handed out the money with no stipulations of what it was to be used for,  so instead of earmarking it for the stated purpose -- to keep the state from having to subsidize my emphesema -- the treated it like a windfall,  lotto win.   We got new roads,  farms got bought so we could build new state offices in the western part of the state.  The governer built a new fence around the state house to keep his dog from getting loose,  oh yes,  and tax breaks for people to build ugly oversized hotels.  The Department of Health and Mental Hygene got no one penny of the money -- not for Medical care,  research or even anti smoking ads.     All this in a state that was so far in the red that they had cancelled all cost of living , seniority or merit raises for state employees,  and he have had a 20 year hireing freeze. 
If I didn't have elderly family members to care for,  I think I'd live in a bunker like JM.    I'm a layed off State employee who truely beleives that we need less government,  and not more.

Are 'projects' housing areas where only people on benefits are supposed to live?


No, because as you go on to say, so many people have their snouts in the trough. So why would you penalise beneficiaries for copying the greedy behaviour of those more well off?


If that's true, it really sucks.


I thought that's what Greg was saying, less bureaucracy, not more, then there's more chance of the money getting where it was originally intended.

I don't know enough about forums to separates the quotes from my reply -- so I'm gonna copy and paiste.

Are 'projects' housing areas where only people on benefits are supposed to live? -- The projects are where no one wants to live unliess they have too.  The worse one in this city was buildings  a city block square -- 28 stories high -- I think 10 units per floor-- and the way to get to each front door was open air "sidewalks"  on each floor -- enclosed in chain link fence.  4 buildings -- with no play areas except the walkways and sidewalks and no green spaces at all.   There's more room an privacy in a habbitrail (plastic hampster habitat).

  No, because as you go on to say, so many people have their snouts in the trough. So why would you penalise beneficiaries for copying the greedy behaviour of those more well off?
  I'm not trying to say penalise the beneficiaries -- I just beleive the beneficiaries will be getting anything by the time the government gets done with it.  And in other posts I've stated that under the rules of giving everyone a living wage,  the way the real poor would loose out,  is that some folks who are working might decide not to -- so they will be taking instead of contributing -- reducing everyone's share of the pie.     I would really be more willing to hand my money over to the Catholics to distribue,  than to let the government get their hands on it,  and I'm not even Catholic.

If that's true, it really sucks.   Tell me about it.  Spent the tobacco money,  and then had to lay off 230 social service and health department employees to ballance the budget.

I thought that's what Greg was saying, less bureaucracy, not more, then there's more chance of the money getting where it was originally intended.

I'm not talking about less bureaucracy -- I'm talking about less government period.
If I lived in a bunker somewhere and had to kill and skin my own dinner,  then I would not actually be beholden to the government.  The more  Uncle Sam gives the more he takes away.   That's one of the reasons that I think that this country didn't free the slaves,  we just changed the terms of servitude.   If you depend on others for the bare essentials,  then you have to follow their rules.  (but then this just gets into another one of my pet rants about the American Civil war)

Looks like I scared everone away -- I'm sorry!!

Nah, Judecat, we just ain't certain how to respond.

I think that government can be corrupt too, but it does it, in the developed nations, in underhanded ways and manages to convince you that it has your best interests at heart.



A Brit speaking here, so have been brought up with a Health Service which, despite having people moan about it, is second to none. The NHS saved my life, not once but twice, and has saved the life of many people. It has its faults - waiting lists, staff shortages, to name a few - but without it many people in this country would not be able to afford health care. For those of us who can afford it, we have the choice to place money into insurance and/or buy our health care wherever we want. The NHS is a safety gap that works damn well.

As for housing, well, you may have a point, but the price of property in the UK has risen so steeply that it is beyond the reach of most people to even consider buying a house. I live in a small, two bed-roomed mid-terrace built in 1905 and when I bought it 4 years ago the value was £60,000. It is now valued at £120,000. That's a pretty steep rise! I couldn't afford to buy a house in today's market; they're too damn expensive! God knows how first time buyers manage, and as for those on the lower end of the societal scale earning £12,000 pa, they haven't got a snowflake's hope in hell. Not unless old Nick goes to work on skis that is... And renting property is a dead end, plus you have the "added bonus" of the private landlord who likes to see the tenant living in squalor most of the time, but also likes rent in regularly and takes a massive deposit.

Builders aren't interested in anything except a profit, so I cannot imagine them building "best". It isn't true here, so why would they be more likely to in the States which is a far more machiavellian society than Britain? Mostly, all the bastards try to do is pass you off with shoddy goods.

It also seems to be that the state government at least doesn't care about houseing either -- since the projects are subsidized -- the tennet pays 50 dollars --the state pays the other $550.   For that amount of money they could put the welfare beneficiaries in regular garden appartments.  (Garden Apartments here are the ones that are two stories with 4 appartments and a central stairway,  with grass and trees out front.  Usually have about 20 to 40 units per complex -- although I used to live in one very large complex with 150 units).

The main problems I have with socialized medicine are 1) we keep hearing about people in Canada who have to spend their own money to come to the US for surgeries,  because the waiting list is so long.  2) I've heard that countries like Canada and England are not doing medical research because there is no money to be made in research,  and 3)  my own beleif that medical insurance itself is what has driven up the price of medical care.     My mother in law charges $50 dollars an hour if are paying for it yourself,  $100 if insurance is paying (because they are only gonna give her 50 of it anyway),   and $175 if it's a prisoner or someone else the goverment is paying for (they end up paying her 75 or 100 dollars -- but they are usually really sick) (Mother in law is a pychiatrist.)  Most doctors charge everybody the same -  so if you don't have insurance you can't afford care.

Well, I've started it up. Started with a female Sim this time, Aneeda Commode. ;-) There is the Perfect Spouse (hint) for Email with the NL expansion but unfortunately Aneeda couldn't stand him.

I've also restarted my Aphrodite Addicts Legacy. New twist this time. In the Addicts' legacy, the heir must marry a specific type of NPC in each generation. My heirs will be marrying the first NPC of each type that the family meets, despite looks, personality, gender, or chemistry/compatibility.

Aneeda Commode... you are hilarious! I can't wait to see your new stories

Wonder how a Vampire would do with no walls?
Can you build a garage with no walls? Oh wait, I guess you would call it a driveway -Duh Me, I have to stop reading the retardo land threads, they're starting to get to me. ::)
Now that I actually have University and Nightlife (still tidying up neighbourhoods before installation) I can see how much easier this Challenge is with PermaPlat, the Skillinator and the Encouragy thing, hopefully I'll get a Smart-milk sticky for toddlers.

I just tested it. Half-walls (which are not true walls)...smoking and plummeting needs. She didn't die, though, even after about 3 1/2 Sim hours. Fenced area, same result. In the coffin she was fine.

Side note: The Email Rules currently don't incorporate any Nightlife features, so all that is a gray area: Expect the Nightlife rules, once added, to include penalties for any form of non-successfulness. Oh, and as before, all community lots must be E-Mail legal. You want a real challenge, have a dream date in a prison with no walls....and no toilet!

Vampires, obviously, warp the timing rules. I have not yet decided how to handle the possibility of a sim becoming a vampire (and thus becoming immortal forever, invalidating the termination conditions).

Been there, done that. ;-) Maybe I should put this one on hold until you update the rules. No use playing it only to find I've been disqualified later. I can focus on my Legacies for now.

Did you get your games back again reggikko? I thought you'd lost your plots.  ;D

No, I started new ones.

Oh, sorry, I was hoping you'd recovered them. :(

Ooo, I really like the sound of this, not just for the story lines, but the actual concept for game play.  I can't wait to see how the events build and unfold.  You have such good ideas, Reg, always original.

Welcome back and you should check with your insurance company on the loss of literary creation and tangibles, at least for future protection.  Afterall, you are only playing the Sims to prime your creative genius and give embodiment to your prolific imagination.  We could all vouch for your contributions, not to mention all the people who hit the EA site to read your stories. ~smile~

Glad to know you are OK and getting things back together.