More Awesome Than You!

Having a computer upgrade done soon, and while I've got all the other specs sorted - this amounts to me telling my husband what my minimum level is and him seeing how far above that we can afford to go.  But I'm left with the awkward question of the graphics card...

The one I'm currently using (and that he used for some time) is an ATI card.  When he got a new one to replace this, he went with nvidia.

Now, I don't want to hear from those people who have only ever used ATI, or only ever used nvidia - but is there anyone out there who has used both?  How do they compare?

Ness

Nvidia doesn't seem to mesh well with TS2. ATI is the better card for this particular game. Depending on the games you want to play, performance can vary.

I've owned mostly nVidia cards, but my first computer did have an ATI 3D Rage card.  Being an early card, it did very poorly for 3D applications.  My second computer had an nVidia TNT2, and this computer came with a Geforce 4 MX Integrated card which I then installed a nVidia Geforce 6200.  My Geforce 6200 isn't performing so well for video related things (for example, the loading screen and splash movies) but it does run the game well.  It also runs games like UT2004 well.

It's all about what you're willing to spend, I believe nVidia cards cost a bit more than ATI.  Also, nVidia tends to outsource production to other companies such as BFG and eVGA.

I have -- I had a ATI X700  Pro that went bad, so while it was out for warranty replacement, I used an nvidia 6600.  Nothing but problems with this game (about the only one I play consistently), unless I used the 78.01 drivers that are from 9/05.  And while they worked, they were slow -- lots of video lags.  Soon as my ATI came back, I took the nvidia out and put it back in, and no problems at all.

This was all discussed in one of the graphics corruption threads in this forum not long ago.  They may have scrolled to the second page by now, but they're worth reading.

Some threads dealing with this topic:

http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php?topic=3541.0

http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php?topic=3285.0

http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php?topic=3151.0

I'd definitely say The Sims prefers ATi cards. I have a pretty old Radeon 9600 Pro 256MB and it works like a charm. Haven't had driver problems in more than a year. I just throw in new versions as they come out and play along without a hitch.

Joe: 3rd page  ::)

I'd have to say Nvidia GeForrce 6600, because I have it and it runs like a charm, and both screen shots on the back are from TS2U.

Ditto on the 6600.

You can't blame poor performance entirely on the video card when so many other bottlenecks exist but I'm still trying to figure those out.  :D

It turns out hubby is eyeing off the nvidia card for me - the same as the one he has in his computer - not that can figure out exactly what that is right now!

Those of you with the Nvidia GeForrce 6600 - can you compare how this card runs to how an ATI card runs?

I'm not just after suggestions of which card to get here - I'd like comparisons to take to hubby to know whether I should let him go ahead with the nvidia card he's after or stick with an ATI card.

The question is: are you playing The Sims 2 exclusively or a variety of games? If all your gaming isn't evolved around TS2, the 6600 is a very good choice (the GT version with 256MB GDDR3 memory, pay attention to this). Regarding comparisons, I've seen the game run on a machine with an nVidia 5700 and it went very smooth, smoother than on my machine actually, but that was before I replaced my Radeon 9200 I had back then, and that machine had a better CPU as well. Plus my graphics card is stumped by the stupid motherboard I have, only AGP 4x supported! Jsalemi's case is a pretty good one, he used two similar cards (the plain 6600 is at the same range as the X700 I think).

Yea, the 6600 and the X700 cost about the same, so to my mind they're similar cards -- both 256Mb ram, and the clock speeds are similar.

Dr Beast - turns out that thecard you mentioned is what Mr Ness has, and the one he would like to get for me.

While I don't play TS2 exclusively, it is the game I play most often with occasional forays into Zoo Tycoon 2, Age of Mythology and a few others (civ 3 and sim city 4 are both sitting here untouched at this stage - I intend to do something with them soon).  As best I can figure, TS2 is the most graphics hungry game of the lot (even though ZT2 gave me more overheating problems) and is the one that drives my upgrades.

Would you still reccomend the 6600 in this case?  Or is there an ATI card that someone would consider a better option for me?

Ness

Well, since TS2 occupies most of your time, I'd say go for an ATi. The X800GTO with 256MB DDR3 memory is a very good choice. Slightly better specs than the 6600GT and at the same price, more or less.
Do you have the Rush Hour expansion for SC4? If not, get it! Makes the game MUCH more playable! Before I got the expansion the game would draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag when the city started to grow. Now it just draaaaaaaags...

After some research...  it appears that the 6600 is $40 cheaper than the only think like the X800GTO that we can find on price lists...

guess what I'm getting...   :-\

Ayie...
Good luck!

you are not inspiring me with any confidence in this graphics card, Dr Beast!

in fact...  it's becoming seriously tempting to chuck a hissy fit and insist on the ATI card...  I think it all stems from his weird need to have a better computer than me.

Now, seriously - is the 6600 that bad?

Go for the hissy-fit. Somehow it seems Nesslike.

I started playing TS2 with an ATI card, Radeon 9600 XT 128MB. It was ok, but not great. I'm sure there are higher end ATI cards out there that would be better, though. I now have an nVidia, Geforce 6800 Ultra 256MB. The extra memory makes a huge difference, and that probably has little to do with the brand of the card. Now with OFB everything seems to be running great, but there were some slight compatibility issues with nVidia cards and the University and Nightlife EPs, and I had to resort to older drivers to minimize the problems (still couldn't make object specularity work with Nightlife, or bump maps work with University), but it appears with OFB those problems have been fixed, and I have nothing to complain about now. The game looks great.

Comparing a 6800Ultra to a Radeon 9600XT? Come now. Hardly a fair comparison.

I didn't say it was a fair comparison. Those were just the only two cards that I've had on my computer with TS2. Note the line "I'm sure there are higher end ATI cards out there". I never said ATI is worse. I just said my particular ATI card was worse than my particular nVidia card. The original poster was asking for input based on experience and that's the only experience I have. What else could I say? I did also say that 256MB is probably better than 128MB regardless of the brand.

considering I will be going from a radeon 9600 12bMb, to the Geforce 6600 - I guess I'm now feeling a little better about it.

Didn't even try the hissy fit - Mr Ness has decided and shall not be swayed - I guess it better work right, and I'd better get used to it!

Don't get me wrong! The 6600GT is a wonderful card, I'd consider getting it too if I got a new computer. What worried me was all the complaints nVidia users worded regarding compatibility with TS2. Now that the bozos at Maxis have found a way to correct this issue, I'd say go for it! Oh, Mr. Ness went for it already. Well happy gaming with the new card then!  ;D

Indeed; the Radeon 9600 series is about three generations old. The current top-end ATi cards are the X1000 series; the mid-range (formerly the top range) is the X800 series. There are some lower-end cards in the X line (X700, X600, etc.), and then there are the 9000 series cards, which I gather are still in production to meet the (shrinking) demand for AGP cards. For the sake of comparison, the low mid-range X800GT AGP is about the same price as a 9800 Pro (at one time the best you could get in a gaming card), but about 25% faster across the board.

As a general rule, the minimum you should demand when buying a new video card is DirectX 9 in hardware, including hardware support for the pixel shader 2.0 and vertex shader 2.0. The other thing you want is 256 MB of video RAM, with a 256-bit memory interface (budget and OEM cards usually have a 128-bit memory interface). In the ATi line, about the "lowest" you should go is the Radeon 9550. although these days the lower-end cards are not a good value compared to what you get in a Radeon 9800 Pro or X800GT for about 170 USD. Given the escalating technology of 3D video (and TS2 is just as demanding as any front-line first-person shooter) and the rapid obsolesence of AGP, if buying a new AGP video card today, be sure to get the best one you can afford (or possibly a little better), because the next time you want to upgrade, it will require a new motherboard, CPU, and RAM.

Keep in mind that although having an up-to-date video card can certainly improve the look of your game, TS2 is still largely CPU-limited, so for the best improvement in game performance, a CPU upgrade is the thing (although an old video card can limit the improvement provided by a CPU upgrade—it's all connected). More RAM helps too (1 GB+).

FWIW, I avoid nVidia products like the plague. Partly it is because of their corporate attitude—for one, I didn't like the way they handled the takeover of 3dfx—but also because of their long-standing reputation for lousy "2D" image quality (once described in print as "knife in the eyes") and crappy drivers. The company has always only seemed interested in benchmark performance, and I've never seen Wndows on any machine running an nVidia video card that looked better than mediocre. FWIW.

I had a 6600Gt in my old computer, and I relly liked it. it looked great, and I never had any problems with it. The only reason I don't use it in the new comp is that the card was AGP, and this new comp only has a PCIe video card slot.

Seriously, the 6600GT was great for me. Looked fantastic.

Rather than buying a new PC, I am considering getting a new graphics card.  There are loads on EBay, but I have no idea what is the best to get and I don't want to spend too much or I may as well get a new pc and have done with it.

What bothers me most is that my tower case has 230V on it and I read somewhere that you need at least 300 (or maybe 350) to run a decent graphics card.  Anyone know anything about this?

It's hard to ask for advice because prices are so different here to what they are in the US, but if someone could tell me the sort of card I should be aiming for with my pc specs, that would help a lot.  I have an AMD Athlon 2000+ 1600 MHZ (overclocked to 2000) with 512MB RAM.  I don't mind doubling the RAM if that would help.

The PC runs very smoothly and TS2 is actually very fast overall.  I just want to be able to see the cinematics and have everything on high.  I can have up to around 20-25 Sims on a lot before there is any noticeable slowing-down, but I do have problems with slowness on very large lots with a lot of Sims and a lot of custom content.  Currently I have most things on high but I don't really get enough detail.  As far as I know, I only have an AGP slot (the PC is 3 years old), not a PCI-Express.  Don't know about the other PCI kind.

Currently, I am considering 3 cards, all of which are very cheap on EBay (all new).  Assuming they will work with my system (esp. the wattage part), which would be best for TS2.  Going by what I've read I would say the Radeon, but I'd appreciate confirmation.

ATI Radeon 9600 XT 256MB AGP
nVidia GeForce 6200 8xAGP 256MB
nVidia GeForce FX5700 AGP 256MB

From what I've read from other Sims 2 sites and gaming sites in general, graphics card isn't really all that important when it comes to the Sims 2.  Any moderate graphics card with 128mb can will deliver great display, it's your CPU and amount of ram you have that really enhance gameplay.  Is this true?

Partially -- while CPU power and amount of system RAM make a a big difference in game performance, a good graphics card will let you use all the high graphics options, and will certainly help with 3-D rendering and DirectX performance.  So a good graphics card with a minimum of 128Mb will help, though 256Mb is better.  And there seems to be ongoing problems with nvidia cards (especially with their more recent drivers) and TS2, so an ATI card may be the better choice if your primary game is TS2.

I've used both an nvidia 6600 and an ATI X700 Pro on the same machine (the nvidia while the ATI was being repaired/replaced), and I'll stick with the ATI.

AncientSim: among the three cards you've looked into, I'd go for the Radeon 9600XT with both eyes closed! I've got a similar model (Pro, one step lower) and I'm really happy with it. Also, these cards can take some overclocking which will further boost their performance a bit. Going for a better/newer model will be a bit overkill, considering your CPU. You didn't mention which graphics card you currently have, but I bet you'll have to go for a better power supply as well. 230 Watts is too little juice, and though the 9600 isn't exactly as power-hungry as most newer cards, it will still tax your current PSU to its limits. And since you're on the upgrade train, another 512MB of RAM will do wonders as well.

Hmm, now I have to do more research because all I've ever heard was that nVidia is a graphics god and ATI sucks.  But ATI is better for Sims 2? 

I've heard terrible things about the ATI PCI-Es that comes with the Dell comps (not the XPS systems).

I know this was for Ancient Sim, but boy you spoke right to me!  I will return the ATI X1300 I bought and purchase the Diamond Rad 9600 XT today.  I already bought the extra 512MB of RAM.  Good to know about the power supply as well.  Thanks for your post Dr. Beast.

The standard one Dell ships is the X300 with 128Mb -- it's ok, but TS2 did tax it a bit.  That's why I replaced mine with a X700 Pro (I have a Dell 8400).

Thought I'd bump this up, I need advice badly. -.-

Let's preface all this by saying that I am not a computer person, and while I can usually hold my own, half the things I've read in this thread mean nothing to me. Use small words if possible.

My parents bought me a computer this winter (specs can be seen here (http://"http://emachines.com/products/products.html?prod=T6420")), which should see to my needs for the forseeable future and was cheaper to buy than to build something even half as good.

You'll notice that the video card isn't quite up to snuff. It runs pretty well as long as I don't download a lot of stuff, but I'd really like to get a card that will see to my needs for the next few expansions at least. I'm willing to spend up to $200, but I don't have the foggiest idea of what I need or what will work best. TS2 is the only game I play aside from the odd hour spent getting eaten by the yeti in SkiFree.

Help/ideas/advice very much appreciated.

Your video card is on the lower end of the nvidia cards, and there have been problems with those and the latest drivers and TS2, so I'd recommend you look for an ATI Radeon X700  Pro or X800 Pro (both are under $200), PCI-Express version.  Try to get one with at least 256Mb of on-board RAM.

I don't know why so many are having problems with Nvidia, my last display was a GEForce 2 and I have replaced it some time ago with a 6200/256 and it hasn't given me an ounce of trouble, my dad even got the same card after he played on my machine and he has been more than happy with his.

All I know (and experienced myself) is that drivers newer than the 77.xx ones from last September caused mucho graphics problems after the OFB patch was installed (and maybe in base OFB as well).

I'm using the 78.1 drivers with no problems, I haven't felt the need to upgrade them at all, but I do know there are others using the higher drivers with no problems, although they do seem to be in the minority.

Ditto. I get the rare graphical glitch, and I mean rare - maybe once every 20 game sessions.

Also the speed on my 6600 is fine - I can move the camera around easily with more than 4 sims on a lot, all settings on high except I do put smooth edges in the middle. However, it does slow down if I put smooth edges at the maximum. Fortunately for me, there's not much difference between the middle and maximum settings. 

If I had to buy a new card I would still get an nVidia and would make sure I had sufficient power supply for one of the newer cards (7800, etc.)

I got a new pc in the end and it has an integrated GeForce 6100 256MB card.  It's definitely an improvement on what I had before in terms of texture and speed (never knew ordinary gravestones had detail on them!) and the camera moves so fast round the lots I can't control the thing.  I have the cinematics, bump-mapping is enabled and I have that slider thing for smooth edges (even though I haven't a clue what they are) and anti-aliasing is enabled on the card, although I don't know what that is either and there doesn't seem to be anything indicating it within the game.  

Before I chose the PC I took a chance and bought a 6600 PCI-Express card on EBay because it was so cheap (not GT version), but I am wondering now whether it's worth the bother of installing it, or whether to just resell it.  Is there any significant advantages to be gained from this card over the one I already have?  I have everything on high (not by default) apart from shadows, as I know they zap the resources, and I don't know what improvement (if any) there is likely to be.  The RAM is 1028MB or whatever the number is and the CPU is an Athlon 64 3400+, so it's pretty fast.

I haven't noticed any graphical glitches, but the driver that came with the card was one from the 8.1 series and I was getting that blue screen thing all the time, usually within half-an-hour at the most of starting to play.  I upgraded to the very latest version (8.4.21) and was able to play for about 4-5 hours before I got one.  It happened when I tried to place a career reward object, but only the once and I was then able to play another few hours without it happening again (still within the same playing session). 

Extra Bit:  Have just been into the game and since updating my driver I can no longer have shadows??? WTF???!!!

Certainly this could be driver and/or installation problems (problems with the video driver or game installation). Presumably you've checked the obvious:  On-board graphcs (if present) are disabled in BIOS; any drivers for same have been removed?

The X1600 is a budget part, about 115 USD by mail-order. It's not the bottom if the X1xxx line, being one step up from the X1300, but it will be outperformed by previous-generation X8xx boards and the least expensive X1800 models, for less than 200 USD.

By "performance/quality" slider, do you mean in the game settings or in the graphics driver? If it is in the drivers, for best performance in TS2 you should have all the 3D settings set to "application preference" or the nVidia equivalent. In the Readme.txt file that comes with the game (you did read this, right?), Maxis specifically says to not enable anti-aliasing in the graphics driver:

FORCED ANTI-ALIASING: The Sims 2 will have graphical problems if anti-aliasing is forced on in display properties. To fix this:
   * Right click on your windows desktop and select Properties.
   * Choose the Settings tab and press the Advanced button.
   * Select the 3D tab and make sure SmoothVision is set to Application Preference.
   * If not, press the Custom... button and change the anti-aliasing setting to Application Preference.

[For nVidia drivers, the setting is "Application Controlled".]

The Smooth Edges setting in TS2 sets the level of anti-aliasing in the game.

More from the Readme:

PROBLEM: The neighborhood and many screens display all grey.
CARDS: GeForce 6800
This is a new video card, and this is a known driver bug with an early version of the driver. Disabling hyperthreading on your machine may help (see below). Updating to the latest driver may help.

PROBLEM: Game crashes soon after starting.
Some recent NVIDIA drivers have problems when running when Hyperthreading is enabled on your [Intel] processor. Try updating your driver first. If this doesn't help, turning off Hyperthreading in your BIOS will work around this issue. If you have no idea what Hyperthreading or BIOS is, it's probably not worth messing around with this stuff. Contact your video card manufacturer for assistance.

The Readme is your friend!

Smooth Edges in TS2 is the same as anti-aliasing. If you have this set both in the display driver and in the game, you will probably have problems. All your 3D settings in the display driver should be set to Application Control, including anti-aliasing and "vertical-sync off."


Yes. The 6600 is a more capable board, plus it has its own dedicated memory. If nVidia has technical specs available on its Web site, they are well-hidden; but generally, integtrated graphics use some system memory along with a reduced amount of dedicated memory (compared to add-in boards). Also, since the 6100 graphics engine is integrated with other motherboard functions, it doesn't have the extensive complement of support circuits and components that your 6600 has. Furthermore, the GPU clock (how fast the graphics engine runs) is probably quite a bit slower on the 6100, and also the memory clock. The memory interface is probably 128 bits per second rather than 256 bits per second, so that data transfer to and from video memory can become a bit of a bottleneck.


You shouldn't be getting the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) ever on a new computer. I suggest you try rolling back to the 77.77 drivers, available here (several GeForce users have recommended this version). Since nVdia's uninstall utility is notoriously un-thorough, you will probably need to use a driver-removal utility also. You can get both of these here:

http://www.3dchipset.com/drivers/nvidia/official/nt5/index.php
http://www.3dchipset.com/utilities/nvidia/driver_removal/index.php

I would probably go with Driver Cleaner Pro since it is the most recent of the removal utilities.

When you install the 6600, you will need to disable the 6100 in the computer BIOS, which is the hardware-level input-output program that runs when the computer first starts, before Windows loads. You access this by hitting a designated key a bunch of times as soon as the PC starts to boot. The key is usually F1, F2, F10, or DEL, depending on your motherboard; you should be able to find this information in the documentation that came with the PC, and usually it is displayed briefly onscreen when you first power up the computer (make sure your monitor is already on, 'cause it goes by fast!).

I did use a driver removal program, but it didn't help.  After uninstalling, I would get to the screen where the password needs to be entered and it would just hang, then sort of flash and come back and no matter how many times the nVidia box came up asking if I was sure I wanted to install earlier drivers, it wouldn't acknowledge it, it just kept repeating this hanging thing.  The only way I could get into Windows was to say no.  I could get in with SafeMode, but that didn't make any difference as the program didn't work anyway.  Obviously something built-in is stopping earlier drivers installing, but what it is I have no idea.  Anyway, the latest one is OK, today I managed 8-9 hours continuous play before I got the blue screen.  It came complete with disappearing bodies, heads on all twisted a la Regan in the Exorcist, and a flashing screen.  The screen continued to flash even after rebooting and only stopped when I changed from 85hz refresh rate to 75hz, even though I've used 85 since the start (which is what the computer itself set it to).

All very peculiar.  Maybe I should just resell the 6600 and buy a Radeon.

As you should have done in the first place, heh! But seriously, if the problems stem from the on-board graphics card, if you don't find a way to completely disable it (which is the easy part, you do that from the BIOS settings) and remove all residues of installed drivers, a change from an nVidia GPU to an ATi might even cause Windoze lock-ups. Try using another driver removal program, and if all else fails...dunno. I'm sure Hegelian will come up with a solution less dramatic (but more drastic) than backing up your valuables and formatting the damn hard drive! Moral of the story: integrated GPUs suck!

Wow—that does seem weird! How does the nVidia driver installation utility know the driver you're attempting to install is an old one? That suggests to me that there is a residue of the more recent drivers somewhere on the PC, either a DLL file in C:\Windows\System32, or perhaps one or more registry entries. I've never personally installed or uninstalled an nVidia driver, so I don't really have any specific recommendations; however, I have read more than once that nVidia's uninstall utility is not very good.

Safe Mode bypasses many third-party hardware drivers, using only the drivers built into Windows, so while it may be useful for deleting old drivers, it's not much help for installing new ones. One thing to note about installing new drivers is that it is often best (or even required)  to cancel out the Windows New Hardware wizard and run the driver's Setup.exe manually.

There's always the possibility that your 6600 is defective.   :P

It is imperative that the integrated video be disabled in BIOS when running an add-in board. Some motherboards may have an auto-detect function, but it is still necessary to enter the BIOS to see if this is the case. This is not difficult to do—you just need to be quick.   ;D

FWIW, I've run two ATi-based AGP boards (MSI Radeon 9800 Pro and Sapphire Radeon X800 GT) with several versions of the ATi drivers with no problems whatever, in two different PCs. I even use the old Control Panel (from ver. 5.8?) with the current ver. 6.4 driver set in place of the resource-hog Control Center, despite this not being officially supported.

PS:  Perhaps since I've said I do not have personal experience with nVidia graphics boards, I should mention that graphics boards with which I do have experience include Hercules (monochrome), Diamond, 3dfx/Canopus, 3dfx/STB, 3Dlabs, Matrox, and ATi (and the first, budget ATi board I had a few years ago was really bad).