More Awesome Than You!

hey guys! haha, was thinking of doing a research or whatever. The Sims 2 is a love it or hate it game right? well OBVIOUSLY everyone here loves it, but i'm curious...

normally is it true that most business or science people hate this game and art and design people love this game?

i'm studying art by the way  ;D

I am quite an 'arty' sort of person, but my daughter is studying chemistry and physics for her 'A' levels. We both love the game ;)

I initially studied computer science in college, worked in that field for two years, and now I'm thinking of going back to University for a mathematics degree. Like many, if not most, 'science/math people', my interests don't lie solely within science and math - to be more than a worker drone in science and math (and I daresay business as well), one has to be creative. So it is far from surprising, to me, that people such as myself adore this game.  :P

chemistry degree - currently working as a mathematics teacher...

absolutely love the game!

my life does not revolve only around scientific and mathematical things.

Ness

I'm creative, but not really artsy (no talent!). I worked in nursing for quite a while, so I guess I'm scientific, too. Business and money matters bore me.

I love the sims 2 but without the fixes from JM and twojeffs i would have given up a long time ago.
I work in nursing too and I'm not interested in buisness.

<--- Working in tech support, and i sorely need somewhere, where the users dont call with stupid questions 24/7. So sims is perfect for me :D

Well before I retired I was an accountant, but I also used to do oil painting too, and I've had some of my pictures in local exhibitions.  The only painting I do now is the landscape. There are just so many varients to the game that I think it's impossilbe to make generalizations about the people that play.

I was climbing the walls until I found JM and twojeffs fixes, they made my game playable.

Joan

Sims 2 is a great big mess. If you love messy things, you will love this game.

I'm an artsy person, but I also love biology (natch, being a midwife and all...  ;)) but my dh is an engineer.  He thinks the game is stupid and boring.  But OH. MY. LORD.  The man spends hours on "google world" looking at satellite photos of everywhere he can think of.   ::)

Chris

I'm a sciency type: A mechanical engineer. You'll notice I turn playing the game into a science. Where does that put me?

Heh.

I'm an IT guy who currently does systems administration, and I am unable to socialize around people (Asperger's syndrome). I have no art skills I know of.

I've never heard of this. Is this one of those new diseases they made up now? Sounds like a load of bolognium to me. I think you're just talking to the wrong people. Although I similarly lack art skills. Unless you count finger-painting with the blood and entrails of my enemies as an art skill.

Believe me, if I actually *HAD* art skills, you'd be seeing more totally awesome stuff. So who wants to volunteer their skills of an artist?

Asperger's syndrome can be described as a mild form of autism. Primarily, the difficulty with social situations. It's a well documented disorder. One of those things that falls under the category of "Random crap I pick up from books."

I'm both, actually. For a while I was really into science, then I got into writing, which I still do, but now I'm into mathematics. Particularly complexity theory and emergence. Emergent game design, particularly. I like computers, and am teaching myself Java. I'm also fairly good at drawing, and am a decent computer modeller--except that the program I use, Animation Master, uses a file format completely foreign to basically every other program ever made. Augh.

I think this sounds more like "creative bullshitting", personally. Them psychological types, they love to label everything. Everything's gotta have a label. People can't just be "an idiot", "a whacko", or "a loser" anymore, you know? Now they gotta clinically define why somebody is a loser. Pssh.

Good. Learn some more useful program, and maybe you can be more useful than Rentech.

Heh. Of course Asperger's and other forms of autism are nonsense "disorders": I certainly have no problems with it. I just don't want to socialize with people, and if they force me to, I hate it. Perfectly normal.
But since people love labelling others, why not let them?

Funnily enough if you look into where Asperger's is really common, you end up in Sillicon Valley, universities, etc.. My guess is that they just needed a name to describe why geeks (ie people with more intelligence than common sense) are non-social!

Geeks know too much for their own good.
In Soviet Russia, knowledge masters geeks!

I used to be good at science but I've given up all hope in it excepts for physics. All that puny activities of molecules and such bores me. I can't judge Biology because I never took it as a course, but I am definitly the Art/Literature type, who just loves to make up phrases like "The epitomal, archetypal perfection of quintessential _______ness."   ;)

I read a study about silicon valley & autism recently. Apparently rates of autism and aspergers are very high in the valley. It is supposed that geeks are actually breeding 'cos they're meeting each other at work in their programming cubicles. ;)

My degree is in computing and I work teaching computing. I relate better to animals & my computer than people. My partner is a technician, we can spend the whole evening in front of our machines, hardly speaking. It's great. :)

I'm an artsy type--I've got a design degree, but I can balance my checkbook, for what it's worth. I never did well in school with math/science subjects, but I think it's because I find things easier to understand when given a real-life context rather than a "Learn this cause it's in the lesson plan" explanation. The last time I remember enjoying science class was 3rd grade when our teacher did experiments all the time to explain things. I was lost in math once I got to Algebra 2. I never saw the point in doing math when you didn't know one of the numbers you needed to use. For example, 2 + a = b. Well, duh, it you add 2 to another number it will yield yet another number. Did we need to write out the obvious? I suppose I found that "higher" maths were just a waste of time so I stopped paying attention.

Personally, I think that the reason people play this game has less to do with interests and more to do with personality. I think everyone who plays this game is a control freak. Just like me.

Untrue. According to Inge, control freaks represent a niche market, and this is why Macrotastics and the military-level control it provides will never be popular. But I think that Inge is just a round mound of gray fatness.

I'm an art and IT student, going into interactive design.

That's because you don't have total control if you use a macro. What if you want to change something mid-macro?

Then you X-out. Simple enough. Macrotastics tries to avoid interactions that are extremely difficult to abort. But no, control freaks should LIKE macrotastics. I'm a control freak, and I certainly do, since the alternatives are "micromanage everything tediously and laboriously" or "watch them do shit wrong".

I'm in the behavioral sciences. I love art, but my own talent does not go beyond stick-figures. My daughter however, is a wonderful artist, so something must be bouncing around in the gene-pool (my ex has no artistic flair either, but my brother and a few assorted cousins on my side of the family do).

As far as psychological types are concerned (labels, who needs labels?) Jung explains it best:
There are eight personality types based on the interactions of the attitudes and the functions.

We don't label, we just use terms as, shall we say 'placeholders'. Although the terms wacko, idiot, or loser are not usually used in the behavioral sciences :D

Computers fascinate me, but I only good at messing them up. Surprisingly I'm pretty good at statistics, and psychophysiology. I guess I'm better with people brains, than computer brains.

G.

Exactly! Then you are forced to control them! Or maybe I just enjoy doing things the hard way.

Yes, well, I'm an old man. My wrists aren't really quite up to that sort of thing anymore. And besides, when it comes to me, using Macrotastics, that's essentially nearly as good as me playing the game myself. When YOU use it, on the other hand, it's more like having me play parts of your game for you. Is this a good thing? Am I more awesome than you? You decide.

Of course you are more awesome than me, but then my game would be easier and therefore, less fun for me.  ;)

I'm not sure if that qualifies as "easier" as opposed to merely "less tedious". I mean, you can do all that crap yourself if you want. There's sort of a difference between "difficulty" and "frustration" here.

I thought there were sixteen? And it's funny you should mention this, since I was thinking of it while reading the thread, but I was cowed by the "labels" comment. It's my guess that introverts are highly represented among players, and maybe people who, like me, enjoy figuring out the system and how to get around the difficulties. I haven't downloaded Macrotastics, since half the fun for me is the time management aspect of the game. I have a set of conditions, a desired end result, and I have to solve how to get there within the limitations. FUN!

Well, in my case, the time-management problem is double-edged: My objective is to maximize the ratio of sim-time to my-time, without reducing the efficiency of sim-time. Doing manually makes it a waste of my time, since I end up making the exact same decision as Macrotastics. Once you master the entire sim-management aspect, it will quickly become tedious, repetitive, and wrist-strain-inducing with all the tiresome clicking.

That would be Raymond Cattell with his 16 Personality Factors. I don't give him much credence, he's one of those that try to apply techincal and logical reasoning for human actions and re-actions (silly Raymond). :D

Carl Jung was the one who came up with the extravert/introvert, and he also found that you don't have to be strictly one or the other, but can have a mixture of both. However, one is dominant.

Macrotastics are great for the maxed out sims. I send them off cleaning/gardening/etc, or set them to 'paint continously', have them power-idle, or have them train the kids/teens with the skillinator. Then I can concentrate on the ones that need more attention.

G.

Re: control freaks:
I micro-manage my Sims a lot. I constantly pause the game to cue up actions or macro's, and the only time the game is running for a long time unpaused is at nights, and while a macro is running succesfully.

On the other hand I let free will running most of the time, since I don't care about Sims not directly under my control. I let my Sims make their own enemies and friends mostly, I just step in when they make mistakes.

I used to let them have free will, but when they burned their 10th lobster, played the computer-game until they were ready to pass out, and other assorted 'wackyness', while I concentrated on something else, I started turning it off.

Unfortunately, free will off/on is for every inhabitant of the lot you play. It would be nice to turn it on for some, but off for others, mainly the ones that are particularly stupid (skill-less). I know that this is not feasable, but, unlike pixel people, I can have wants/wishes and at the same time know they will not come to pass :D

G.

i have to confess.. even though i'm studying art, i've always love science. but i can't do math haha. math and physics. and a higher lvl chemistry. i always fail at my tests haha.
most of my friends who are in the science stream hate this game, and most of my art stream friends love this game, so i thought, why not ask the rest of world :)

I have one science fanatic friend (she's going into phorensic science) adores the game. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Well I have a BSc and MSc in Biochemistry and have previously worked in the pharmaceutical industry.  I've qualified for my MCSE and I'll be staring a new pharmaceutical job Monday.  I am a control freak and therefore I'm not over keen on macrotastics.  Whilst I complain about Uni, I still have to do everything by hand.  I'm certainly not artistic by any stretch of the imagination!

the very definition of "life simulator".  so maybe they intentionally left it incomplete and broken, to be more like real life.  i don't really love the game, i love all the things i think it could be, could lead to.
my reality has always been in arts, though i have a framed piece of paper around here somewhere that claims i once knew something about computer programming.

I think it attracts many types of player - the artistic and the logical - for different reasons. People play in different ways - some like to experiment, some like to story-tell, some like to build & decorate, some like to meet goals, etc etc.

I think I'm more dominant on the right-brained side of things but can be very logical as well.

I confess - the Sims, to me, is just a thinly veiled way of getting to play the "barbies" that I had to give up when I was 12. *lol*

I'm sort of a combo goal setter/story teller - I like to plan out my sims lives (ie, the hood I am playing now, I have decreed that this generation is toall go to uni, and marry and each have 3 kids, unless they want 6 for an LTW. And I'm trying to fulfill all of their LTWs.) But I kind of make up a story about it in my head as I go along. I'm not a picture-taking story maker, its more for my amusement.

The Sims is also one of the few games which attracts complete digibetes. This gets reflected in the level of questions on forums: you won't ever see a Quake3, Morrowind, Half-Life 2 etc. forum where dozens of people ask what to do with a zip file.

Decide for yourself if that's a blessing or a curse.

It's obviously a blessing, you get to laugh and make fun of them. 

Jung is my favorite of the great innovators of modern psychology. It's funny, but before I knew of Jung, I had my own idea of a collective unconscious. In my mid-teens, I became fascinated with  Freud and "discoved" Jung through him. When I first read of his theory of the collective unconscious, I was totally blown away. When I was younger, I had the dream of becoming a psychologist. Unfortunately, that never came to fruition. Like you, I do much better with people's minds than I do with machines. I would have to do something like forensic psychology and not therapy, though. Whiny people irritate me too much for that!

I can be either an introvert or an extrovert, depending upon my mood. I've never been shy or anything like that. Sometimes I just prefer not to be bothered with socialization. Once in a social situation, however, I am never the wallflower. I also have pretty strong leadership qualities and fairly strong charisma, I just generally don't put them to use. And in case you couldn't tell, I don't think of recognizing one's own talents as conceit, just fact.  ;)



My son has devised either the ultimate challenge for control freaks, or the ultimate nightmare, depending upon point of view. It's the "I'm Surrounded by Idiots" Challenge. In any given household, you control one Sim and one Sim only. Everyone else is free-range. Of course, the challenge is in keeping everyone else happy and productive using just the one Sim. You're not allowed to see what the others want, however. You have to use observation and educated guessing. It's both fun and challenging and often has quite hilarious results.

Details here, if anyone's interested: http://virtualdollhouse.blogspot.com/

Funny, but that's the way I normally like to play.  :P

And Jung was a wordy busy-body. If he had been as good a shrink as he was at enhancing his vocabulary, mental illness would be a thing of the past.

OOOOOHH!  Now here's a challenge I could get into.  I just haven't been brave enough (I guess despite the body armor and the lead pipe, I am still in some ways a wuss) to do the email challenge, although it looks funny and interesting.  I may have to tear myself away from my current fave family and give these a go.

Chris

I spent years and years in business, then flip-flopped and went back to school for a technical degree in medicine.  Now I'm back to running the family business.  The past 25 years I've maintained a hobby-like devotion to learning computers...as the field keeps one...no, several...steps ahead of me. *Sigh*  I'm an artist, an introvert who has learned to be an extravert when a need arises, dabble in computer graphics, write poetry, paint watercolours, make jewelry, and try whatever else strikes my fancy. 

I'm addicted to Sims, and I thank God my hubby is addicted to surfing the internet, because we can sit quite happily at our desks for hours.  We live on an island and the TV is crappy, so this fills an entertainment need.  I'm a control freak, so therefore I LOVE macrotastics.  Without it, I couldn't possibly control everyone, all of the time.  I have ALL of JM's hacks and couldn't do without them.  I'm an achiever, so it's a challenge for me to allow my Sims to be different - read: stupid, sloppy, underachiever, etc. - but I'm learning.

Ooh! Something I can do after I finish, Legacy, Prosperity and Email! Yay!

Of course, I'm only on Generation 2 of Legacy is still a child, Generation 2 of Prosperity is at toddler age, and Email is still in the Sim bin. I think play with my other sims too much.  :-[

See, you should be very happy I have no intention of playing this challenge. Otherwise, where would you be when I suffer a fatal brain aneurysm from it?

Both my BS and MS are in nursing so I guess that makes me not one of the artsy people.  I do love to sew and do needleart (well, I did before I owned the Sims2).  The thing I love about the Sims is that I control their lives in a way that I can't control my family's lives. 

Heh-heh. It is rather the polar opposite of your playing style, isn't it? You'd be surprised how much you can actually control vicariously, though. This challenge shows just how efficient a Sim-master you can really be. I think you'd actually be quite good at it.

Reg, I'm curious. Is there actually a challenge that you refuse to take on? I see you all over the place (and I am, of course, rooting for you), and you not only take on all the challenges, but actually successfully tackle them all. I knew you'd be one of the first one to take on the e-mail challenge before it was even posted. My what many talents you have:

If you want a very nice and playable house = see reggikko
If you want a funny story that makes you laugh = see reggikko
If you want to test-drive a challenge to see if it is doable = see reggikko

Hm... I seem to detect a pattern here ;D

G.

Well, I'm not sure where I fall in this...

When I was in high school I wanted to be an art teacher.  I have always had the skill, was born with it, I guess.

I started programming in '82 when we got our first computer, a TI-994A (anyone remember those?)  My ex and his brother and I had a software company, selling programs I wrote.  I also did some art files that we sold.

Have been programming ever since, except I have slacked off for the last couple of years because I kinda got burned out.  And I need a better version of the C++ language I've been using for 15 years, but can't afford right now.

By profession, I'm a graphics artist for a sportswear company, and I create our catalogs and workbooks, so I spend a lot of my day working with Photoshop and Illustrator.

I didn't get interested in the sims until about a year ago - got TS1 after TS2 came out, to see what all the fuss was about.  Got hooked.  Before, all I played were adventure games, because I enjoyed the puzzles in them that you had to solve in order to progress.  So I kind of play the sims like that - make it as challenging as I can.

But I have done a lot of recolors for myself because of a color challenge I've been playing, and plan on using the color skins for a genetic challenge I have in mind when I'm done.  I'm just starting to get more creative with my recolors, and want to get into doing the 3D modeling, which I also want to learn for a program I was working on.

In high school, my aptitude test determined I had a mechanical mind.  But I'm also artistic.  Where does that put me in the art vs. science?

At which site can I get these wonderful and playable houses?  Several of my latest downloads ended up being the most bizarre houses with terrible layouts and all sorts of unecessary "noise" in them and the LAG, whew.  Nasty.  I'm okay as a builder if I have an idea in mind, but just going by the seat of my pants.... well, not so much.  For example, I made a wonderful sim copy of my own house, down to photographic wallpaper, etc, but building for my legacy family (which I got bored with and started using hacks) was not easy for me and they still don't have much furniture or wallpaper.



Chris

Well, I know that this doesn't actually work, because sims are actually crippled and cannot perform most actions autonomously at all. Plus, do you really want me to suffer a fatal brain hemorrhage and die in the process?

See I would make the challenge null and void by sending all the free-range Sims to repair broken computers.  Or maybe I could use the death field on the APO to get rid of them.... it's not my fault if it happens to be in the kitchen ;)

You have to go to the official site (sorry about that :D). The direct link is this one:
http://thesims2.ea.com/exchange/search.php?searchPage=exch&search=1&asset_type=lot&key=reggikko1960&order=CREATION_DATE+desc&nrows=5&game_version=&custCont=&zoneType=-1&lotSize=&lotLevel=&lotValue=&familyFund=&familyWorth=&familySize=&locality=&country=&view=new&x=11&y=13

Long, isn't it? If that doesn't work, just go to the lot-exchange and type reggikko1960 into the search, that'll get you to her site.

Her houses are very playable and have a certain NO (New Orleans) flair :D

G.

I am a Fire Engineer and fully qualified Building Surveyor. My highest qualification is a Masters degree in Applied Science majoring in Fire Dynamics. Lots of physics!

So count me in as a science person who loves the game.

BUT as a result I have a very limited imagination and artist qualities.

Well of course I don't want you to suffer a fatal brain hemorrhage and die, silly. Where would I get my hacks then? It's precisely the fact that the Sims cannot perform most actions autonomousy very well that makes it a challenge. Of course, you have to be comfortable with them going to sleep at 6AM when they need to get up for work at 7. Then they come home and pass out. It's great fun! It forces you to think outside your comfort zone. That's why I like your Email challenge so much. It made me strategize and  come up with a new way to play. And I will have a perfect score before I die. I simply will not give up until I do!

If the challenge is well done and it catches my fancy, I'm in. I have one waiting in the wings which I think is by TreyNutz. The AntFarm challenge. The Sims can never leave the house in that one.

I'm one of those people who needs constant challenge and brain stimulation. The game on its own is quite easy so to keep myself from being bored, I like to take on new things with it.


Gabi, you are too kind. Thank-you.  :)

I am just your average, everyday dumbass who enjoys playing The Sims, as is my sixteen year old daughter. She frequently runs me off my computer so that she can play. It all started a few years ago when my seventeen year old daughter (then fourteen) insisted on getting The Sims for her playstation 2 console. She got frustrated the first time she tried to play so I decided to give it a whirl. I wound up playing more than she did.

From there, it progressed into The Sims for PC when my husband (who happens to be highly entertained by flight simulator games) decided to bring me home a disk while he was buying a game for himself. Since then, I've been pretty much 'hooked' on a game that seems to take up way more of my time than anything should...lol. I didn't get The Sims 2 until March and then Uni a few weeks later.  For a while all I wanted to do was play the damned game. Until... bugs began filtering in.  ::)  Now for the past couple of months, I've spent most of my free time searching for and reading information about the game and all its glorious 'surprises'! Though my daughter still bugs me until I have to stop and let her play the game.

I'm not particularly artistic, scientific, nor computer savy. Just a regular sort of gal who's managed to become addicted to controlling the lives of tiny pixelated people on a computer screen.  :P

See, but you can't send them to do *anything*. Influence maybe, but I don't think influence works on electrical repairs. I'll have to check on that. The only time I was really tempted to kill one of them was when he inexplicably lost his ability to cook for himself. I had to buy pizzas and hide them under the foundation to use when he got hungry so he wouldn't starve. You could buy some fire and burninate them, though. ;)

Wellllll... I suppose I'm another data point that runs contrary to that assertion, being both a business and a science people.  I'm president of my own company and in my day job I design spacecraft.  The Sims is one of my favorite computer games.  I like to play the game and make things for it and play with other Sims fans and even host sites for a bazillion Sims artists.

On the other hand, I'm also a Photoshop junkie and I enjoy designing things more than just about anything else, so maybe I'm an art and design people, too, and that's why I enjoy The Sims so much. 

On the third hand, without the mods, hacks, and enhancements created by J. M. Pescado, Inge Jones, and TwoJeffs, I would have given up in frustration and stopped playing The Sims 2 long ago; so we might not even be talking about the same game.  ;D

I think the lesson that we've really learned from this exercise is that trying to force-fit people into pigeonholes is a generally fruitless exercise.  Business and science and art and design are things people do, not classifications of human beings.  Specialization is for insects.

I'm currently studying psychology at uni, but I've always been kind of an arty person, as my favortie hobbies are drawing, writing poetry and singing. (whether I'm actually any good at it is another matter!). I have only about the average person's (maybe even less) computer knowledge but I spend a lot of time on them, and the Sims was just one those things I had heard about and ended up getting addicted to! 

I work in education and have a BSc in social science: on a psychology test done while I was doing a leadership course, I came out as an ideal leader (top left hand side of the test grid), and dead centre of the introvert/extrovert scale.   In terms of art vs science I'm more art/maths than science.  I like logic problems and solving riddles but I'm no Mensa candidate!  I enjoy being creative (sketching, painting and craftwork) and am lucky because every now and again I get to do those things as part of my job.  I use the sims to fulfill my creative storywriting needs: I love the power of wordplay.

I have a degree in engineering management and a degree in music, work as an administrator at a university.  My sweetie's a sequential artist and sculptor.  My daughter just finished a journalism degree and is going to grad school in social work, and my son is in his third year of college and third major so far (astrophysics, psychology, photojournalism).  Both my kids are musicians as well.  We all love the game.  Daughter and I play mostly for the relationships angle; sweetie loves to build and write stories; son loves to build and push the limits of the game, experiment with cheats.

Asperger's Syndrome is a form of high-functioning autism. The majority of those with this diagnosis are perfectly capable of holding down a job but find it almost impossible to form personal attachments or function at a social level. I work with people with autism, and the behaviour associated with the full disorder can be pretty spectacular and involves them painting with their carers entrails!

So, social worker which makes me quasi-scientific (psychology), and I have a love/hate relationship with the game.

As for art skills... damn, I'm good. Should have done it for a living, but chose people instead.

I agree, you put that so well!

I'm amazed by the variety of the people here and also, I have to say, by the generally high levels of educational achievement. I knew the discussions here were on a different plane, people can write, spell and comprehend for a start, but I'm totally blown away now.  :o

I've always felt a little ashamed of being a grown woman playing games, I keep it a bit quiet at work, but I'm just about out of the broom closet now I've read this thread.  :P

Definitely. For me, this is an online community of my intellectual peers, something which I cherish in both the real and online worlds. Age, education, whatever. I just like talking with people who think.

Exactly. (Do I detect a Heinlein fan?)

Well, I was in the legal field for 15 years before I decided to be a stay-home-mom.  I'm not artsy or creative, but I love anything about science - it fascinates me.  I like to watch the Science Channel.  And my husband, who is the creative type, is a certified welder and pipefitter and thinks this is the most ridiculous game ever.  So, we're backwards from what purportedly is the norm for people who enjoy this game.

I was an art major in college, but I have a strong interest in psychology and actually toyed with majoring in that for a while. I do lots of sim-psychology experiments on my sims ;).

Let there be no doubt about it!  Rah, rah, RAH!



Innocent bystanders will be enlightened to learn that when I typed "Specialization is for insects" I was quoting the Dean of Science Fiction Himself, Robert A. Heinlein.  My apologies to the memory of The Master for failing to attribute this wisdom to its source.

Aaargghh!  I did it again!  When I typed "Rah, rah, RAH!" I was actually quoting the title of an article that Spider Robinson wrote about Robert A. Heinlein.

And when I wrote "Aaargghh!" I was quoting Charles Schulz.

But when I wrote "I did it again!" I was most emphatically not quoting Britney Spears!   :D

I loved Heinlein when I was a little hippie in the '70's, especially Stranger in a Strange Land and Time Enough for Love, but I've been going off him ever since. He got seriously weird about incest in his later books and it creeped me out so much I can only read his earlier stuff now. Feminism helped turn me off his theme of old balding hook-nosed blokes who got all the nookie, as well.

Well said Witch!

Got to agree with both of you.  This is what keeps me coming back here, and avoiding the "official" site.  Too many airheads who don't understand the meaning of spellcheck, let alone have the ability to put together a comprehensible sentence!

However, I did have to look up obsteperous.  Good word, I had to pass that one along to a co-worker who is in love with words and is always looking for a new one to use on those who don't have the ambition to learn.  I'll have to see if he actually looked it up!

I run the technical department of a large IT company, my major studies at university were in business management and accounting, though I have lots of practical experience with personal computers. I was also very good at maths at school and university. So that means that I shouldn't really like the Sims.

I don't think its fair to put people in boxes unless
a) they fit and
b) you plan to torture them at some later stage.

"Stranger..." was for me one of the seminal books I've read. A truly remarkable piece of fiction, and though I read some of his other books I noticed that he became somewhat formulaic. Something that Stephen King can be accused of too. Which goes to show you that you should never get too smart/clever/big for decent editing.  :)

Many more S/F fans out there?

Yes, Stranger had a huge impact on me too, especially as it seemed to offer a brave new way of life that fitted in with the hippie ethos. I would agree Heinlein became formulaic, much more elegant way of putting it! ;)

My (younger than me) partner frequents the groklaw site, he was quite surprised I knew the word grok and the origin of it, mind you it might not be his age so much as the fact he reads technical manuals for fun.

One of the things I admired about Heinlein was his incredible brain, I believe he invented waterbeds and waldoes in his books.
I have been a science fiction fan since the age of nine, after the fairies and the myths and legends, there didn't seem any other logical place to go!

I loved Stranger, but my FAVORITE Heinlein book was Friday.  I can still vividly see it in my mind like a movie.  Wow.  It was like opening the door into Willy Wonka's candy garden when I read that book..... I think I was about 13.

Chris

I have not an artsy bone in my body. I am a web developer on the programming side. I will have my degree this fall. I love this game though... I guess I fall on the Computer Science side of it. I would fail miserably if left to my own devices on designing a website. I leave that to the artsy folk.  Yep, my skills of an artist are sorely lacking.

Come to find out though that there seem to be more artsy web developers than programmers out there. So I am in a bit of demand around where I live.  ;D All these designers need someone to do the coding. Works for me.  :P

I'm perhaps the only person on Earth who likes Heinlein's Number of the Beast. I'd like it a whole lot better if he hadn't stuck that 4000 year old Gary Stu that is Lazarus Long in, however. I can only take so much of that character. I may also be the only person on Earth who liked I Will Fear No Evil - it wasn't his best and some of it was pretty silly, but I liked that he dealt with gender fluidity. I haven't read many books that do that.

I'm not sure what my favourite book of his is; it's been ages since I've read any of his work because all of the books of his I own are still on another continent. I'm really fond of Starship Troopers though, which baffles me a bit considering I'm a rabble-rousing little punk.  ;D

haha! you sound very much like me!

ok, i admit i was wrong.we can't classify people into categories. being 19, i guess i have a lot to learn :) thanks guys! good to know that the human race is not as boring as i thought :p

Gender fluidity? What in blazes is that? It's either something really weird, or you need to read a bit more modern SF.

I always liked The Cat Who Walked Through Walls. I think it's sort of a sequel to The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. (Which I need to read . . .) And I like ST, even though I don't agree with a lot of it, it's very interesting.

I've been an SF fan since . . . oh, boy. Probably around third grade, when I discovered Animorphs, although it could have been before then. They aren't really SF, but they started moving me away from fantasy and towards SF. I read a lot of Golden Age in middle school, and it was basically the first non-kids SF that I read. Asimov, Bradbury, Heinlein. A little later I read Dune, and all the sequels. Won't touch the new prequels, though. Read halfway through one of them, got bored and annoyed by the ineptitude. Now I read Asimov's Science Fiction, the magazine that used to be Astounding or Amazing or something. Not the one that Campbell edited; that's Analog, now. Books are mostly classic SF and whatever I pick up off the library shelf, particularly new releases. I'm a particular fan of robot stories, but I'll read just about anything that is well-written and thought provoking.

I write SF, too. Sort of. I have two "finished" stories, one of which that has no dialog and isn't really SF but is set in a non-Earth world, and one that is almost all dialog and  is has the deus ex machina cranking along on the last page. I also have a truly craptastic 70+ page novel that I wrote when I was in seventh grade and has about three or four dozen characters, most of home will wander off for 20 pages or more until I remember about them and give them whatever the next line that needs to be said is. Then I have the scattered wreckage of at least twenty stories on my hard drive, which will likely never be finished.

I'm a junky . . . heh.

I read anything that has words.  But I'm more of a fantasy-genre person I guess...although I love horror/suspense (Stephen King/Anne Rice, et. al). 

I guess I would say I'm an artsy person, at least in my mind if not in practice.  I'm also a knowlege seeker, I love to learn about stuff but I don't have a degree in anything. (I'm currently in school for medical transcription.  Love learning new words)!

One of the things I love the most about the sims is the *community*.  I've had times when I didn't even play the game, but would keep up with message boards and stuff just because I liked the people.

I also read anything that has words. If I don't have anything availble to read, I read bulletin boards, bill boards, people's t-shirts etc.

However, I am a science fiction fan, but I also like weird stories ala The Twilight Zone. Also on my list are historical novels and mysteries. I read psychological thrillers and mysteries as well (now here's a shocker :D). The one thing I will never even touch are Romance Novels, I find them utterly revolting, as well as blood and gore stories. I do like a well written gothic novel/story, but it has to be far above the regular trash that passes as gothic.

That is one of the greatest benefits of being bi-lingual. I can enjoy books in more than one language.

Oddysey, that sounds great, I wish I could read your stories. I am a great fan of home-made stories, but the only one's I ever wrote are the bed-time stories for my kids. They did however, contain a great deal of kiddie science fiction and historical backgrounds.

G.

Totally agree! I recently strated a prequel of Dune, what rubbish, I was editing sentences in my mind, criticising the plot development (or lack thereof) and wondering what was wrong with the book for the whole time I managed to keep reading. I got Dune out again a week or two after that, Frank Herbert is much cleverer than his son, he makes it seem like the reader is seeing and discovering the story all by themselves, instead of having it described step by painful step as Frank's son does.


Me too. ;) I have even been known to read the newspaper fish and chip wrappers when desperate. For many, many years I had a book a day habit. :D I don't get how students don't see signs we put up, the first thing I do anywhere new is READ EVERYTHING!  ::)

G., check out the Benjamin January series by Barbara Hambly. The first book is "A Free Man of Color". The premise, a freed former slave who studied medicine in Paris returns to his home, New Orleans, in the early 1830's. The novels are mysteries, but Hambly did an unbelievable amount of research and her stories are filled with New Orleans history which is accurate as well as colorful. I think you would really enjoy those books. By the way, New Orleans had the highest population of free people of color in the nation at that time.

 The juxtaposition of the French Creoles, the people of color, both slaves and free, and the influx of the hated "Americains" made 1830's New Orleans quite the colorful place.

Thanks for the tip Reg. I never heard of her, but that is precisely the kind of historical mystery I like. Well researched and well written.

I have some time on my hands until the fall semester starts, now I know what I shall do this weekend. My problem with books is that I have a hard time putting them down. Bedtime reading? Don't I wish. I tried reading boring books and see if I could fall asleep, but they just made me angry for wasting my time and not tired as I hoped they would. Oh well, sleep is for wusses anyways right? :D

It's exactly what it sounds like - gender is not a fixed state (like sex more or less is), but a fluid one. I haven't seen many genre books tackle this concept. If you have, I'd be delighted if you'd point me in the direction of some - I have more books than I can read right now due to the six hours of Finnish class I have most days, but that's never stopped me from cheerfully acquiring new ones. I'll read them all eventually.  ;D

I love to read as well, but I'm more into the modern day mysteries.  I really enjoyed Dan Brown's Angels & Demons - had me going to the very end.  I am a Lee Child fan also.  He is an excellent writer.

Sounds a lot like me. I'll read anything - with the exception of Romance novels. And most westerns. Romance novels are insulting, westerns are usually character deficient (although there are a few good ones out there).
I love SF, although I tend to lean more towards Fantasy actually. Lately I've been re-reading my Norman Spinrad books.

I too will read anything. Drives my partner nuts. The last time we went on a trip in the car I finished the book I was reading, and the extra book I brought in case I finished the book I was reading. Then I started reading the manual for the car (which I had read before) then collected a stack of pamphlets from a rest area and read them. Then I started the 1st book again. He thinks I'm insane, or pathetic, can't quite figure which . ::)

edited for spelling

I don't read romance novels either. Ick.  Though I must admit my mom had me reading Danielle Steele and Judith Krantz in my teens. BLECH!

Actually, most of what I read is non-fiction.  I do enjoy historical fiction, but prefer the actual history.  I'm currently reading The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan.  Before that I read The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels.

I'm a suicidal teenage mother who dropped out of college. I was studing IT... now when my daughter goes to school (if I live that long) I want to be a radiographer. I tend to make self sims, then make them commit suicide in various ways. I might start one of the challenges though.

I read everything, except romance and westerns. Sci-fi (especially Star Trek) is my favourite, but non-fiction is pretty high. I've just been reading the Argos catalogue since I was bored.

Danni - I hope your post was made in jest, although I personally do not find it funny at all. All I can say to you is that I hope you find your vicarious virtual suicides therapeutic, and no longer to desire a real-life one. It's not too late to be a radiographer, if that is what you want. Be there for your daughter, but most importantly, be there for you.

Agreed Kitiara.

A lot of people have faced severe crises in their lives, and knowing that my children and I deserve better has always spurned me on. I was 36 years old when I found myself newly single with two children, then 10 and 6 years old. It took me 20 years of my life to realize that I was married, but my then-husband was not. I had no choice but go back home, which involved a move across the ocean. I tackled it, went back to school and now I'm back in the U.S. for a few more years to finish up.

Was it hard  and emotionally wrenching? Oh yes. Did I cry, despair at times, argue with fate? You bet. But I knew I deserved better and so did my beautiful children, so I made it happen. I am now 46 years old. It did not happen overnight, or always smoothly, but it happened never-the-less.

G.

I was genuinely shocked by your post.  I don't really understand why people here like hurting their sims, let alone themselves!  But that's because I've been lucky in many respects - I'm a natural optimist and would not deliberately hurt anyone else - not even my sims! 

However, I do understand what it's like to feel down and I have learned the hard way that a problem shared is a problem halved.  So, if it helps, talk away.

Well, just don't come to me looking for sympathy on the entire suicide matter. If you talk to me about suicide, I'm gonna refer you to Rippy the Razor.

Do you love your daughter? I guess not. Otherwise you wouldn't be contemplating abandoning her like that. I have no sympathy for those seeking attention on a message board, or seeking to burden their child with greif and loss for the rest of their young lives.
Get therapy if you are serious, or go to a support board. Going to a sims board with this tells me you are not looking for help, but rather trying to stir the pot or get attention.

I wouldn't put it quite that far. I mean, this is probably the worst possible place to do that, since I will make fun of you.

Yes, but we've all seen how much people love to have you make fun of them (actually I think I was the first to volunteer my guestbook for the official site back on that post on variousimmers...) I mean, people bound in here and beg you to rip their lips off *coughdatabasecough* so it can't really be "the worst possible place to do that" truely, right?

Yes, but people who are suicidal apparently want to be comforted, told it's not so bad, etc., etc.. I don't do that shit. You wanna commit suicide, I'm gonna be there egging you on, holding a betting pool on your splatter radius when you hit the ground.

Contemplating suicide is not the same as actually going through with it.  Whole different ball park.

Sometimes life will really wear you down and you'll think to yourself, 'I give up.'  It's not a bad thing to admit failure, because you can start to figure out where to go from there, to find coping strategies and make life liveable.  And The Sims 2 can be used as a tool to realise that it isn't all hopeless, that you can make a difference to those around you.  And since a Sim life is much shorter than ours, you can try lots of different things.

I hear an overdose of antidepresssants is the way to go these days.  Call it an ironic last stab at those who prescribed them in the first place.  Atually, someone I knew took this way out, after fighting depression for most of her life.  It's tragic to clock out at just twenty-eight, but hey, that's life.

Life stinks, I might add :P

There ain't no other options! Life is life, death is death, pretty binary really. The deciding factor, of course, is you can't play the sims when you're dead. ;)

Oh, now that's just boring. I liked it back when jumping was the preferred method of suicide. I actually encountered a jumper once. There were 3 people not entirely successfully trying to talk her out of it. Naturally, I did the natural thing: I pulled out a bullhorn and proceeded to drown out the others by taunting and heckling her. Sadly, this didn't produce the desired effect, and she chickened out. Somehow, I managed to end up being credited with talking her out of it. How annoying.

Actually, it's not even very binary. Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate. No matter what you do, you're going to die anyway. It's more like base-1: There's only one digit, 0.

Hmm. Well, I can't think of many specific books, but I know that there are a significant portion of SF literature that deals with societies in which gender changes are fairly common. Sounds like what you're talking about is a more specific (and interesting, honestly) subset of that. I'll look into it, but it sounds rather more unusual than the stuff I was specifically thinking about. Quite intriguing, too.


Sara, that's a little hostile. I can see your point, but I'm just not comfortable with using that kind of tone towards someone who could even potentially be actually suicidal. I've been there, it's not fun, and being told that your feelings are stupid isn't much fun either.

Humour, on the other hand--I can't tell if JMP is being actually serious, or whether he has the opposite meaning, since I would guess that his approach'd be more effective at discouraging suicide than the "oh, it's not really so bad" tack. Ah, irony.

Life may suck, but it sure is damn funny.

It sure is, just that sometimes it takes a while to figure out the punchline.  Assuming there is one.  Assuming sense of humour still intact.  I remember more than a few dark days when nothing would draw a smile.  Since then, I discovered webcomics, and concepts like the Idiot of the Day.  Plus, I make sure to get a regular dosage of SG-1.  So the old laughter muscles get a regular workout these days  :D

Life is all about finding the punchline.

Say, that would make a good motto.

(http://www.simshost.com/images/char/rofl-yim.gif)


Gawud, JM!  I glad you started this BBS!  That is the most profound expression of philosophy I've read this year!

I've been there too. Now days, who hasn't? I never said her feelings were stupid. I implied she might simply be looing for attention, which happens frequently online. This is not a depression support board. This is not an appropriate place to air her feelings.
And what I said about her kid is the truth. If she is a mom, she should be a mom. Being a mom means bucking it up, and being strong so that your kid has a better life. I'm not saying that from some kind of theory about life. I'm saying it from personal experience. It's the truth, flat out. If you love a kid, you buck it up, get help, and keep on living.

My personal experience is the longer you live the less you really know.  I've learned to assume nothing.

I read somewhere that people who are truly intent on committing suicide just get on with it - they feel their life has reached a full stop and it's a choice they've made. 

Anyone else who yells about it is crying for help.  No point in telling them off - it might well be a cry for much needed attention.  Just because you're not really going to slash your wrists or jump off a building doesn't mean that you don't need help.

Some of us are blessed and  make fantastic parents who really enjoy our roles - others just can't cope with the demands. I try not to judge those who are less fortunate. 

Maybe, but heckling somebody is always fun, and made all the more entertaining if they go and do it as a result.

Gosh you're an evil, evil man! ;D

Yes, I believe it's been already suggested that I may be related to the devil, because of both my eyes and voice.

Do you imply that you look like Loki Beaker?...:). I had to work a lot with him, and still couldn't change that devilish eyes...:).
BTW, he is very very good father to his daughter, always going to the crib, wishing to play with baby...:).

Typing error on my part - since corrected!  Besides, I think that you're more vampire than devil - although you really seem to love your fire....

Do you have a demonic voice?  Are we talking Silence of the Lambs again?

I can do the demonic voice, yes. It hurts my throat, though. It's great for scaring children, though. Do the eyes thing, bellow, "YOUR SOUL IS MINE, MORTAL!", and watch as they pee themselves in fright and run in terror.

Bet your favorite holiday is Halowe'en, too, JM.

I hate holidays.

Although I've never been suicidal, a very close family member has attempted three times, ending up in the hospital the last two (most recent attempt was just before Christmas).I am familiar enough to be sympathetic to it, but I have a strange feeling there are some really weird people coming to this board, lately. I don't buy this poster's claim. I just don't. Call it a hunch.

Might I suggest referring them to the Rippy the Razor picture, so they get it right next time? Honestly, there are few things which annoy me quite like incompetence.

You are twisted. ;)

I just read Danni's other posts and she doesn't sound like a crazy poster. Danni, if my "hunch" was wrong, and I have a "hunch" it was, now, I apologize. Your post just struck me out of the blue, with your being so cavalier about suicide. Either way, please get help. Go back to your doctor.

Of course I am. Isn't that what makes me quintessentially me? It's why I will always be more awesome than you.

Two thoughts;
1. You missed your calling; you should have been a teacher.
2. See demonic  - read sexy - voice. 

I'm still your groupie ;)

 Well derail back to the original topic Who's playing the game.  I started a degree in Genetics, did 18 months and dropped out. That was several years ago, I work in an electronics factory as a materials operator.(I drag stuff from the delivery area to the area it's sed, find out when it's due, decide if we need earlier deliveries etc)I have a very good mathematical faculty, I tend to when given a task proceed in a very logical manner, however, I read a huge amount of fantasy and comedy books and watch the same types of film. I used to do alot of PNP roleplaying, both as DM and PC. I enjoy logic puzzles. I enjoy puns. I enjoy biting sarcasm. I dislike authority but tend to overindulge a paticular habit if not told to. I'm an addictive personality, I enjoy striving toward being the best at what I do, but I'm easily distracted from that goal when I am better than the average at whatever I'm doing. I enjoy making people laugh, though I'm often full of rage or sorrow or frustration. So I suppose I play the Sims2 because I can indulge all my fractured wants.

Hmm...a strange topic...
Well I'm certainly a science guy. I'm a vet doing my PhD in the Pharmacology laboratory, dabbling with DNA and doing research on poor, hapless albino rats (although I know that deep down they're the ones experimenting on me!). Now, why I play the game? The answer is quite simple, actually: I like it! Of course, without the numerous mods provided by JM the game would go out the window along with the computer and the 17in CRT screen, but thanx to Pescado I still enjoy the game, don't own my lady a new computer, and don't endanger any passers-by!

The Sims 2 as quintessentially is it almost like eugenics, the second generation is almost always "superior" to the first. As good as mechanical logic and perfection seems, I find my artistic calling turning more to house building and setting up grand schemes in which some Sims get lucky and others explode into fireballs that are visible from outer space.  :P

I'm a mostly self-study programmer, have been since the days of rubber-key Spectrums.  Since leaving school a decade ago I haven't really managed to stick at anything for long except writing stories and of course, the odd bit of code here and there.  I'm not shy of an honest day's work but my resume is hardly anything to brag about.

Anyway, I play The Sims 2 (and The Sims before it) because watching virtual people going about their lives helps fill the boring bits in mine.  It's interesting to try and steer them on a successful course, and since there is no real end of game except of course Armageddon, you can keep on playing without getting stuck on level X which is something that happens in games where the plot has already been set in stone.  With this one, if there is going to be a story to it, you've got to supply it, and that's a fun thing to do.

Ever read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy et al?  My favorite trilogy of five books!

Don't know that I am either art or science --just plain old me. Retired (or at least out of work and not really looking)file clerk,  housewife/dog handler.  Was a medic in the army many many years ago,  til I found out that I ain't Florence Nightengaleil,  and I cannot stand sick people. Or crazy people,  or whiners.  or people in general.  (especially stupid people)   They got lables for folks like me -- but I just prefer the one that rhyms with witch.

  Read science fiction, (but I don't really like the most of the hard science science fiction)( long time fan of Asimov I think the term Sci-Fi is heresy)   the old gothic romances (like Jane Eyre), fantacy,  historic novels (but not those god awful historic romances -- bleh) and anthing fact or fiction about the american civil war.
  Am addicted to my computer,  paintshop pro and Sims. and other computer games.   ;) Basically anything to avoid housework.   

I'm glad I stumbled on this site looking for a hack -- finally found where the grown ups play.

Jude

Actually this game keeps me sane.  I'm a business type, BA in HR yep I'm the bitch that gets you sucky insurance and fires ya! 
I have no clue why they would think business people would hate this you have to wanna and do manipulate someone parts of peoples lives in business isn't that what this game is total and utter control of something. I wish I could just click on someone and tell them what to do and the mindlessly go do it.  But I can't and for the ones that really make me feel like that I make a simmy of them and then I can do it whenever I want to.
I have a couple diffrent families with designed after my husband  ;D

Oh, I found this page (http://www.chuntey.com/) just today.  Hilarious ;)

Oh that page is rude, I was a commodore 64 user! ;)
(I only got rid of it about 5 years ago.)

There's so much damn fine fiction out there it's sometimes hard to know where to start. Good to know there are a few SF nuts in the mix though.


Please, do take the advice if if your post was for real.

Why...then you go back to fairies & myths & legends, of course!  ;D  Read any Piers Anthony lately?  Best author for tongue-in-cheek, satirical, double entendre I've read in decades.  Actually, I've been a fan for decades...and have trouble keeping up, he's such a prolific writer.  I can almost guarantee that when anyone (who even remotely enjoys SciFi/Fantasy) reads the first novel in his Xanth series, he/she will be hooked for the duration.  I lost count at seven...or was it eight?...novels, and the series is still going strong. 

I absorbed Robert Heinlein novels like a sponge until Number of the Beast.  Near the end of the book, he got altogether too wierd, or it was way beyond my intellectual capabilities at the time, and I lost interest. :-\

I will read almost anything...except Danielle Steele, that is.  Entirely too scripted and predictable for my taste...sorta like pablum.  I much prefer a writer who assumes I made it past grade school.

Raymond E Feist, The Riftwar Saga
Terry Goodkin, Sword of Truth series,
Terry Pratchet, Discworld series and
Douglas Adams, Hitchikers guide to the Galaxy
are all my favorite books. The sword of truth is one of my new favorites, and I am eagerly awaiting the next book to hit the shelves in this forsaken outback of the world

ooooo Sword of Truth! My favorite books on earth!  If I had to throw away all my books with the exception of those, I wouldn't be too upset.

I love Xanth! But I lost count in the mid-twenties. Last thing I read by him he claimed trilogies ought to be 3³ instead of 3.
Although, personally, I think his best work was his Incarnations of Immortality series. That trilogy only had 7 books.
I am also a Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker) fan.
A few other favorites are: Anne McCaffrey, Laurell K, Hamilton, Jane Yolen (most of her stuff is YA at the oldest but still inciteful and well written), Robin McKinley, Tanith Lee, Isaac Asimov, Ayn Rand, Ray Bradbury, Dorothy Parker, Amy Tan, Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman, and Anne Rice. There are soooo many more. That is enough for now. My (tiny) living room in my (tiny) house is wall to wall with bookshelves. Most are doubl-stacked. There are also boxes of books I can't fit on the shelves (that kills me). But, whatever you do, do NOT put Danielle Steele on my shelf. I would have to bring out my katana.

Ahhhh, I wondered if I detected the presence of another dragonlance fan when I saw your name :D I love those too.

I started reading the Xanth series when I was about 15, and kept up with like the first 5, and then all of a sudden there were too many of them and I gave up LOL...

I love the puns in the Xanth series...my favorites were the nickelpedes and the technicolor hailstorms.

Piers Anthony's puns don't appeal to me, but that's the worst I can say for him!  (After all, he has a string of best-selling novels and I've never tossed anything longer than a novella over the transom!)

I have that same impression of Heinlein's later works.  If you're reading anything after Stranger it seems that the best thing to do is stop 3/4ths of the way through and close the book.  Then just write the ending in your own mind.  Nevertheless, Number of the Beast is one of my favorite Heinlein books.

I've been on a John Ringo kick lately.  I think his war novels would appeal to JM; lots of murder and mayhem and heavyweight firepower.  They're not for everybody, but I'm a closet history buff, and much of history is about military operations. 

At the moment, my pleasure reading is 1776 by David McCullough.  I recommend it highly, as well as his previous book, John Adams.

Yes, I've read his books, loved them in my 20's, again became very formulaic. I also liked his Incarnations of Immortality best. I like most of the authors mentioned so far, a couple I've not heard of.

Sheree S tepper is one of my favourite authors and a friend just pointed me towards Robert Rankin; Knees Up Mother Earth, Hollow Chocolate Bunnies of the Apocalypse are the two I've read so far. I thoroughly enjoyed the books but can see a pattern appearing. If you like Terry Pratchett or Douglas Adams you would most likely enjoy this UK author. He said he has invented his own genre as he doesn't fit any of the current ones.  8)

Ah, yes. My name did come from she of the mercenary lifestyle and questionable morals.

I loved Com Puter in Xanth. I guess I just appreciated the campy literal nature of the puns in general. I like campy.


I forgot her. She's great.

My first internet nick ever was Laurana...hehe

Laurana (Lauralanthalasa?) is amazing. Very sweet, very gutsy. A true hero. I think Kitiara is more 'fun' though. In theory anyway.

Liss - I think we've hijacked this thread.

LOL appears so :p 

Yeah the Golden General was always one of my favorite characters.  Her and Tasslehoff lol...

OOh, Tas is definitely my favorite. I guess we didn't really hijack this thread, we just 'found' it, and are keeping it safe until the owners return to get it.

Thread jacking is pretty much the ongoing theme of this board, sort of like how the "preferences and woohoo" thread has meandered into a discussion on astrology and fortune-telling.

I like off-topic meanders, just like a real conversation, interesting people, interesting subjects mostly. I support anarchy and enjoy forums where there are few rules ie MikeInside forum and here.

I agree. I hate forums where topics get locked at the drop of a hat. My husband says that you don't stop someone in the middle of a conversation and say "Excuse me! We were talking about cars, please stay on track or I will have to ask you to leave."

Yeah, that won't tend to happen here. If the discussion gets far enough off topic, I might split it, but as I'm generally the *CAUSE* of it being off topic, well, go figure.

Often too the initial query or problem has been answered and people riff on the themes that emerge. I love the thread about family names round the world as well as this book one.

Aside from all the other good reasons, I don't think you can really get very far off-topic in this thread anyway. Since it asks "who's playing this game", any answers from people here are good to go. Even the question about scientific vs. artsy could fit the bill. So far, with all the answers there is but one conclusion: it doesn't seem to matter much, it's more of a personal thing. And reading about peoples preferences, likes, and dislikes is somewhat related to that as well.

This is the way it works in real life. Whenever we come across a conversation we can't contribute to, we can either stop reading/listening or do the opposite and get educated/informed. Another indication that the TS2 is not very realistic. I have never (since being a grown-up) come across people who reacted so violently negative to topics of no interest to them as the pixel people do, and I've never seen an adult stick their fingers in their ears and act so childish, even in my profession. (It does however, somehow remind  me of the official technical support staff at the official site :D)

 I've been reading with great interest about people's reading preferences. I have very little time at the moment, and in the coming months I will have even less. I am an avid reader, but I lack the time to go and browse around in the library. There are some great suggestions here, keep 'em coming :D

Have just begun reading the "Baroque Cycle - Quicksilver" by Neal Stephenson, which I found quite accidently when perusing the SF - as you do. He's a good read and it's well written, though I did have a few difficulties with placing it in the genre the author wants for it as it seems rather more historical in nature.

Has anyone read Jasper Fforde and his "Tuesday Next" books. If you like Pratchett and Adams you should enjoy these. The man is a literary minefield and very clever. Funny, too.

"Snow Crash" is another good one by Stephenson, much more obviously scifi. I was very nearly put off by the fact that it's present tense and the first page reads like very over-the-top noir, but I made myself read a bit further in and found that the first page is silly on purpose, and the book quickly gets on with being near-future cyberpunk. The ending was pretty abrupt, though, which I've been told is a problem Stephenson has... it's kind of like the story fell off a cliff all of the sudden.

Now that's the best description of it that I've ever heard. It really is rather like that... noted down for future use (if you don't mind ;D)

:D By my guest!

i don't think a sci-fi collection can be complete without brian aldiss, john brunner and michael moorcock.  they opened up a lot of the mainstream space between, for instance, heinlein and stephenson.
about that same time, roger zelazny was making the world safe for trilogies of more than 3 volumes.

Speaking of cyberpunk, whatever happened to William Gibson, loved his books, haven't seen any for yonks for some reason.

In the case of this thread, where the initial premise was somewhat tenuous, I'd say the threadjacking involves sticking a hydraulic jack under it and raising it to a new level.

I don't think I've ever read anything by Brian Aldiss, John Brunner, or Michael Moorcock.  I can say, by that definition, that my science fiction collection is complete because there are books by these guys in my library, and I've even met a couple of them, but I don't recall having ever cracked the covers of their books.  Add William Gibson to that list, too.

Amusement: Science fiction bestsellers regularly outsell so-called mainstream bestsellers, but you'd never be able to tell that by reading the New York Times.

I don't ever go by any best-seller list. My interests are wide and varied, that is to say, I try to read just about anything. If I come across a book that doesn't start out well, I keep on reading because I'm hoping it'll get better; if it doesn't get any better, I get angry at myself for wasting my time, oh well...

Usually I go by recommendations, that's why I find this thread interesting.

Oh yeah, I don't read schmalzy, kitschy novels and I don't ever touch romance novels. I shall make a note to send those to Greg to help out with his Valentine's Day dilemma. :D

The only Valentine's Day I celebrate is the massacre.

And that JM, is the only worthwhile event to celebrate on Valentine's Day. Especially since it's thugs wiping out thugs, and in such a spectacular fashion. :D

I adore Terry Pratchett. He is one of very few authors who make me laugh out loud while reading. Generally when I have a new Pratchett book, my family thinks I've lost my mind as I am chuckling, giggling and guffawing as I read. "Interesting Times" is probably my favorite. "Death to our oppressors when convenient!" I need to reread that. I also love his collaboration with Neil Gaiman, "Good Omens". It's like Monty Python doing the Apocalypse.

This isn't SF, but anyone who enjoys a good laugh should read "A Confederacy of Dunces" by John Kennedy Toole. You should definitely read it if you've ever been to New Orleans, ever want to come to New Orleans, or are interested in our more colorful resident-types. I think I've read that book at least 6 or 7 times over the years and it still cracks me up every time.

Since I'm definitely interested in New Orleans (I wonder how come...do you wonder how come too, Reg?) I will get that book. Besides, I like your sense of humor, so I'm pretty sure the book holds what you promise.

My, I've got a lot of books to get tomorrow, I'm going to enjoy this weekend very much.

http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/blog/2005_07_01_archive.asp

_jealous!_
and you design spaceships for a living - I haven't forgotten.
_jealous!__jealous!_

Brian Aldiss and Michael Moorcock write in a similar style, I have trouble reading either, though more success with Brian than Michael. I try Michael Moorcock about once a decade in the hopes I have got smart enough or mature enough to understand him.

I don't understand why science fiction is so hidden. Our local library stopped having a science fiction section about ten years ago. Looking for SF now is a dreary process of finding a little pegasus or saturn icon amongst the zillions of sherlock holmes, cross or heart icons liberally splattered everywhere. Then it's most likely a bloody sword and sorcery quantilogy or some pathetic fantasy about ordinary new york girl meets fairy. Like it would be hard to meet a fairy in NY! :P

I am at a loss to answer this. But you are absolutely right and I am sick of the stuff that passes for fantasy these days. The only fantasy author I read is Charles de Lint and his stuff is so bloody hard to get hold off I could run screaming into a bookshop with a machete. Oh, for a decent writer... (Donaldson is good if blacker than the bottom of a coal mine during an eclipse.)

Read Aldiss, Asimov, Blish, E.E. 'Doc' Smith (Triplanatary being the book to blame for my obsession with science fiction), and sooooo many others I've lost track. Read the odd bit of Greg Bear, some Gibson and a very good British author called Michael Marshall Smith (excellent premise in all of the novels), but made many more mistakes as witnessed by my bulging bookshelves. How about Julian May? Ann McCaffrey? Oh my, those dragons...don't ya just wish?

Was Donaldson the one that wrote that huge series about the leper bloke? Ah, that's it, Thomas Covenant. I kept reading thinking it would get better. Thomas whinged, moaned and bleated his way through a number of rather large books if I recall, it's been a few years...

PS Dragons, oh yes.

PPS Just read several Charles de Lint. He leaves me feeling just a little bit unsatisfied, like a mental orgasm that never arrives. Have you tried Robert Holdstock, he writes quite superior fantasy.

 :D That's him. Miserable sod with loads of attitude and hard-donebyedness (? heh) Will deff look out for Robert Holdstock, and give him a whirl.

For those looking for interesting fantasy, I recommend Patricia A McKillip. Less so anything written before 1990, although her Harpist series is decent - her writing took on a more distinct style by the time she wrote "The Sorceress and the Cygnet", and kept it. Her writing is dreamlike - reminds me at times of Bradbury - and her worlds... well, some of them are rather medieval, and there are some fantasy creatures, yet it's entirely different from your usual sword and sorcery fare.

Katherine Kerr's Deverry series is quite excellent. I've also heard good things about China Mieville, but I haven't read the book of his I have yet because it's a gift to myself for when I finally finish writing a particular manuscript. (Sigh, it's been four months already...)

Stephen R. Donaldson does have a large following of fans, among whose numbers you will not find me. :)

I've never tried reading romance novels, either, unless you count the works of Robert Heinlein and Edgar Rice Burroughs.  I've long been intrigued by them, though, because so many of my fellow SFWAns write romance n the side.  The "Regency Romance" seems to be all the rage.

Fantasy stories have been crowding SF off the shelves for quite some time now.  Even my brainchild, Norwescon (http://www.norwescon.org/), now bills itself as "an annual northwest science fiction and fantasy convention."  Like all children, it has departed quite widely from its parents' plans for its future.  There's a reason for this: for the run of the mill novels, fantasy outsells skiffy at least two to one.

I've never been very fond of Bradbury.  There's a certain artistic merit to his prose, but I have difficulty suspending disbelief to get into his flights of fancy.  My impression of Asimov is the opposite--he came up with a few really good plots and settings, but most of the time his execution of the stuff should have been executed.  But then, Asimov didn't write any of his stories.  He just blasted out an initial rough draft and left it to editors to write the complete story.

Amusing story: At the 1961 World Science Fiction Convention in Seattle, a shiny new writer walked up to Robert A. Heinlein, hoping to impress The Dean.  "My name is Harlan Ellison," he said.  "I've sold more than a million words of science fiction."

Without missing a beat, Heinlein responded in his deep baritone, "There aren't that many words in the English language, so you must have sold some of them more than once!"

I like McKillip too, another one I forgot earlier. Oh, and Ellen Datlow, and Tanith Lee.

 I got started by reading Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. Loved it. Decided to try more sci fi. Got lucky. My next attempt was The Hitchhiker's Guide. Since, I've decided that sci fi is really good stuff. Fantasy, in my opinion is often better, but not always. I like the technology of sci fi but when I've read 20 pages of nothing but technical jargon with no plot, I start to get frustrated. I tend to go with fantasy more often because I still get that 'not quite real' story, without risking it being 80% jargon. Anyone ever read Sister Light, Sister Dark by Jane Yolen? Kind of a chic thing (amazonish) but very good.

On the non sci fi front, anyone else like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig?

A late answer, but an answer nonetheless (blame it on my vacations and my infrequent visits to netcafes!): yep! I'm not smart enough to come up with such a theory on my own!

There's a trick to writing really good SF, which Stanley Schmidt beat into my head during six rewrites of my story, "The Last Plague" before he would print it in Analog.  (Some of my writer buddies started calling it "The Last Rewrite"!)  You have to work through all the technical details and then leave 95% of it out of the story. 

Instead, show how the characters react to the stuff you've invented.  Now matter how much effort you've invested in getting the technical details right, the story is about the people, not the rivets.

Fantasy writers often make the same blunder with elaborate descriptions of social structures, spell-casting systems, family trees, and how castles are made.  Geez, folks, if you just want to bloat the word count, throw in a sex scene.

So what have you written Greg and what's your handle as an author? I'm wondering if I've ever read anything of yours. If you don't mind me asking of course! ;)

All the science fiction stories I've had published were in Analog magazine, mostly novelettes.  If you were reading Analog in the early Nineties you probably read them. 

I'd guess my most popular story was "Fish Tank".  (An astronaut named Jeanette rescued an octopus named Oscar from a dying space station.)  It got the Anlab award for best skiffy novella published that year.  That one was fun.  I designed the whole space station as well as Jeanette's spacecraft and the space colony she lived on, but the only parts of it you hear about in the story are the things Jeanette experienced.

That sounds awesome! :D I mean designing the entire set, space stations, ships and all. Maybe you should be a movie producer.

I don't recall Fish Tank though it sounds like one I would enjoy, people stuff as well as tech stuff, the best mix in my opinion. I started reading sci fi (1966) with Asimov and the others of that era and boy, what a stiff stilted relationship writer Asimov was. Fantastically intelligent man, not a clue about women or how to relate. Even as a nine year old child I knew he didn't do romance well. Writers now seem to have a much better handle on incorporating sex within sci fi. Too good some of them. *shudder*

Mind you, the galaxy was populated by spacefaring males in sci fi originally, there weren't females out there in the big space operas. I often used to wonder what aliens would think of us, maybe they'd think we were a one gender race. ;) Anyway, ship doctor by paranormal xenobiologist, we women snuck on board the spaceships until we can now hold up our heads with pride in any alien federation you care to mention.  :P

Someone drew me a spaceship once, I designed a D&D dungeon in it. Do you still have plans of your space colony? That might make a cool setting for a game, for the thread talking about starting a role-playing game. Or a space station.

Couldn't agree more. Too many times authors forget that what a reader wants is to be able to identify with the protagonists. I have some aspirations as an author myself (unrealised mostly, I'm afraid), but have had a couple of shorts published in magazines. Lots of ideas for stories but no time to develop 'em. Damn this job...!

I designed a D&D dungeon based on my own home. My victimsplayers refused to believe that such a deathtrap could possibly exist until I actually allowed them to witness it. And specially told them not to touch anything. Not even the toilet. To emphasize the point, something blew up, which I immediately blamed on one of them, instructing them NOT TO EVEN LOOK AT IT.

 :o
Friendly get-togethers at your place must be a total mindfuck.....
 :o

Oh no no no please, don't. Infodumps are boring, but random sex scenes are worse because they're universally bad. If I want sex, I'll read erotica, in which the sex makes sense in the context and is much more likely to be written by someone who knows what they're doing.

I can almost make an allowance for it for NaNoWriMo, although I think if someone needs to inflate their word count they'd do a lot better by writing some more actual story.

I don't mind an infodump so long as it goes somewhere.  For example, if David Weber hadn't explained what a gravity sidewall or an impeller wedge were - and what their military implications were - the rest of the book (On Basilisk Station) would have left the average reader scratching their head.  When you incorporate the information in a way which pre-empts questions you are bound to ask later, you speed up the narrative flow (and thus the must-turn-page effect) later on in the book.

Tom Clancy's books are the worst for that, I think - great big huge bloated monsters where he goes into so much intricate detail about things.... it just puts me off wanting to read anymore sometimes...

haha...sorry guys, i know this will have a catrastrophic effect here but...is anyone here a Lord of the Rings fans? cuz i am, but i don't see anyone talking bout it...

Of course... LOTR is THE finest fantasy book/s ever written and is the standard upon which all others hang their colours. Aragorn is the character I fell in love with (thus setting an impossible standard for boyfriends and partners), and as I've never met anyone like him and won't, I shan't be bothering (again) with the whole relationship thing. It blew me away the first time I read it at 13, and on subsequent rereads have been similarly affected.

A note of interest...I live within a mile of where Tolkein grew up, and walk around the area he frequented as a child. It's very industrialised now, but there are remnants of what he based The Shire on, namely, Moseley Bog. Sarehole Mill has regular events, and readings, plus there's the chance of a decent beer.

Sos, taken so long, but yeah, Pratchett is cool. As for Good Omens, it is one of my favourites, making me laugh out loud. Must look at it again... *runs off to rifle through boxes of books (decorating)*

When I was about 11 I discovered Lord of the Rings. I read it in one sitting, from a Friday night after school until Monday morning. I don't think I slept. It was like watching a movie unrolling in front of my eyes. It was a magic world made just for me. A few months after I read the books, they became popular again, I was angry that other people talked about my magic world!  :-\

I re-read the books about once every 5-10 years. As I've matured I've liked the books less. They are very moralistic and during the trudging and fighting, quite boring. (Same thing happened with Narnia - the Christian moralising antipathy anyway).

Peter Jackson, shamelessy plugged here as a New Zealander, made the Lord of the Rings movies. I have to confess I've only seen the first film. I thought he did an excellent job, though I'll never know why they missed out Tom Bombadil. Despite the lovely movie however, the movie in my head is still better, so I haven't seen the rest of Jackson's movies. I wasn't happy with the casting of Frodo either, I thought he was too gormless looking for the lead character, what with his pop eyes and all. Aragorn and Legolas are both hot.  :P

Witch, too bad you were caught on cheating...:). When and where it was - your avatar keeps secrets unrevealed...:).

It's a foregone conclusion that a bunch of fantasy-inclined people are going to have interest in LotR. Yes, really.

Ahhhh!!  I love this board, and I'm sorry I don't get a chance to visit with you fine people very often.  So, I'm answering this late, and with so many topics discussed, well, let me see, where to start:

1)  Artsy or Scientific?  I am more artsy, I think.  I love to write and love to talk to people and exchange ideas.  People also fascinate me, which is why I went into Social Services originally.  I discovered a love of history later in life.  I adore old houses and I study genealogy.  Genealogy is really the study of us:  who we are, how history shaped us.  We can't go back in time and meet our ancestors, so this is as good as it gets.  I like to read the facts and data, and then try to figure out the "why" in a family.  Why did this person migrate halfway across the country or leave the old world and come to the new?  Why does this census have an ancestor one race, and a later census have the ancestor in an entirely different race?  Gee, this branch of the family tree has lots of men dying in their 40's and 50's, and my Dad died at 48, so does that point to high blood pressure and diabetes being something that has taken the men in my family for generations?  Some sort of faulty DNA?  Who knows. 

2)  Aspergers Syndrome:  Jordi, I know you don't want it, but here's a hug anyway.  (((hug))).  My son has AS also.  He was non-verbal and showed some very destressing behaviors around the age of 2, and we had him evaluated.  At the time he was diagnosed with High Functioning Autism.  With intensive therapy and a lot of hard work, by the time he was 5 the diagnoses was changed to Asperger's Syndrome.  He's now 14.  He's the "weird" kid in school who wears red all the time, who doesn't really have any friends, who plays video games and draws elaborate storyboards and studies weather patterns but can barely read or spell.  He is a "nervous" child who paces back and forth and makes strange sounds when stressed.  Last year this behavior made him a moving target for evil little boys at the bus stop, and they threw rocks at him and blacked his eye.  He starts high school next week and I am terrified.  LOL  He plans on being a Video Game Programmer when he grows up.  The "geek" syndrome stereotype actually gives me some comfort, because when he was little a well-meaning psychologist told me that he would never have a "normal" life and that he would have a hard time finding and holding a job, probably never get married, and never live indepentently.  Obviously, that's not true of many who have AS, and so it gives me hope that with continued hard work, Al will be fine, too.   He really is a sweet, well-mannered, innocent kid.  His teachers love him because he is so well-behaved.  The kids. . . well, kids are cruel to kids who don't conform, we all know that, and I wish I could just treat those brats the way I treat Sim Townie Teenagers and feed them to a cowplant.  :)

3)  Literature:  I used to love reading.  It has been a while since I have picked up anything that wasn't non-fiction, though.(Damn TS2)  :(  My favorite authors are Stephen King and Anne Rice, and my favorite book is "The Stand" by Steven King, with "It" being a close second.  Unfortunately, both my favorite books were made into cheesy mini-series, "It" being completely horrible!!!  I love fantasy and find ancient lore of witches and fairies and dragons compelling.  I met my husband while playing D&D.  :) 

Ah well, Dolores was a townie who fell in love with both the male romance sims in my house. Simon asked her to move in and they celebrated with a woohoo. Unfortunately Spock arrived home from work at the very worst moment and full of love unfulfilled, proceeded to make his feelings clear to Dolores. :)
_{_mumblehavesinceinstallednojealousyhack_}

Hi Kristalrose. Our neighbour's son has Aspergers Syndrome, he is intensely interested in RPGs and computers. In fact he introduced me to Neverwinter Nights. :)  My partner & I are also computer addicts, and sometimes I wonder if we verge on Asperger-like behaviours. It's all a continuum after all. Anyway, this chap used to pop over frequently and kind of give monologues no matter what we were doing. It became quite onerous until his dad told us what was going on and it all became clear. Now it's fine because we understand we can say to the guy, 'Hey, sorry, this isn't the right time for us, we are busy eating a meal, why don't you come back in 60 minutes.' He doesn't take offense at this, but he's pretty prompt returning at the 60 minute mark! Interesting people. Must be hard to live with. My son is dyslexic - or whatever the current buzzword is - means he has trouble reading and writing. Can build car motors and scale tall buildings though, so has different intelligences. It seems odd that we place so much emphasis on reading and writing now, when bulk humans have only used those skills in the last few hundred years.

I keep hearing this mysterious "disease", and I'm convinced it is complete and utter rubbish created to pigeonhole and defame. It's purely a fictitious creation intended to claim that "nerd" peoples have something wrong with them. This is balderdash. Why, have you seen the what they have in psychology books now? I guarantee if you read through one, you will find that you have at least one of the problems. Yet I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with you. It's absurd.

Whether you label Aspergers a behavioural trait or a syndrome, it definitely exists. There are measurable behaviours and responses. It probably always has been part of humanity, one book I read talked about the 'old uncle who never married and who's hobby is writing down the numbers of trains' or collecting matchboxes or whatever. A certain type of eccentricity. People like this often did not marry because they were not capable of sustaining those emotional sorts of relationships, now however they all live in Silicon Valley and are dating and mating and breeding. ;)

Kristalrose, Aspergers Syndrome is one of the saddest conditions around, simply because children are not visibily different from the outside, so other children see their behaviour as 'weird' and often initially treat them unfairly due to ignorance.   Alot depends on how informed the other children are, and on their ages. 

I've taught different children at different levels on the spectrum over the years in mainstream classes.  Educating the other children who come into regular contact with anyone with the condition is essential to prevent bullying, and to give children on the spectrum a chance to learn how to socialise without fear. 

It is hard all round.  I've worked with children on the spectrum who, due to previous negative experiences, don't want to have friends of their own age, and rely on the safety of adult company during break/playtimes to minimise chances of being bullied.  That's a challenging barrier to overcome because children need to feel safe before they can contemplate learning anything new.

However the nature of AS is so vast that it seems wrong to box and label children with the condition; I worked with a child that all the immediate professionals (including the educational psychologist) thought was on the spectrum, but when formally assessed was deemed to not score high enough on the spectrum to earn the label. This was partly because that child exhibited appropriate facial expressions and gave eye contact, could maintain friendships, had learned to read and write, was basically numerate.  Yet that child showed obsessive behaviour the like of which I've not seen since! (Except on the news.) ;D

Asperger's certainly exists and I can attest to the issues it has for anyone living with the syndrome, but it is certainly not a "disease". I work with a number of young people with this diagnosis and they all present very similarly in that they have a lack of empathy, a need to control their environment, some ritualistic behaviour and intense sustained interest in odd subjects. Some may even have a second diagnosis bolted on to their condition and have a learning disability as well, maybe even mental heath issues. However, it is not an effort to label people (a mighty task that all social workers avoid to the point of sometimes being too phlegmatic), particularly children, but a short hand method of understanding WHY someone has the behaviours. Understanding means that better behavioural plans can be developed, and changed as the young person begins to work towards better social skills.

Oh, yes, Asperger's exists. My son has it. He's a high-functioning autistic, extremely intelligent, but years behind emotionally and mentally. He didn't speak until he was 3. He's now 10. It is most definitely not rubbish and I always feel like crying when I hear people say that, as that's a sensitive subject for me. He has such a struggle with things we take for granted, and it breaks my heart. I think what is "rubbish" is when people are wrongly diagnosed, or merely assumed to have, Asperger's strictly going on the "nerd-like" tendencies, social awkwardness, etc, which is what I think you're referring to, JM. But real Asperger's is much, much deeper than that. While many can go on to lead somewhat normal lives, and do often end up being that quirky physics professor and other such stereotypes, many will have a much more difficult time. When my son was 3, I was told he would be "bagging groceries at Kroger" for life. He is in a special needs school, and has improved tremedously, but he still has a long way to go, and he may never get there. KristalRose, I know what you mean about being "terrified" about high school. My son is about to enter the middle school years, and even for non-asperger's kids, those are usually pretty tough years. Your story sounds remarkably similar to mine.
Jamie got his first taste of being  picked on for being "different" about 2 years ago. And can you believe it was from the parent of a child in our neighborhood? Jamie  was playing with his two "friends" (they are twin brothers who have since abandoned him as a friend) and a third child who is the neighborhood bully. I did not know this at the time. They all went to the bully-kids house, and the father let the twins in, but told my son at the front door to go home. Jamie cried and the father sang 'Crybaby Ha Ha!" It's all I can do to keep myself from burning their house down. I may sic JM on them.

Wow, I'd love to chat with all of you who have experience with this, sometime!

The best way to discribe this sub-group of autism comes from www.aspergers.com

Asperger's Disorder is a milder variant of Autistic Disorder.   Both Asperger's Disorder and Autistic Disorder are in fact subgroups of a larger diagnostic category.  This larger category is called either Autistic Spectrum Disorders, mostly in European countries, or Pervasive Developmental Disorders ("PDD"), in the United States.  In Asperger's Disorder, affected individuals are characterized by social isolation and eccentric behavior in childhood. There are impairments in two-sided social interaction and non-verbal communication. Though grammatical, their speech is peculiar due to abnormalities of inflection and a repetitive pattern. Clumsiness is prominent both in their articulation and gross motor behavior. They usually have a circumscribed area of interest which usually leaves no space for more age appropriate, common interests. Some examples are cars, trains, French Literature, door knobs, hinges, cappucino, meteorology, astronomy or history.

Diagnosis for autism in general and the sub-groups in particular are designed to help the child/adult, not to label them. The problem arises when doctors/psychologists/psychiatrists mis-diagnose or over-diagnose because they can't be bothered to focus on their client and her/his particular problem. Some even just describe medication without going further than that, and that is just plain reckless.

Patients with Asperger's have the same problem any of the high and low end autism diagnosed have, and that is a severe problem with short-term memory. It leads to information overload, and can't be handled well by the population diagnosed with this disorder. On the other hand, the long-term memory is usually excellent. I have seen people with high end autism, and especially Asperger's being highly successful in school and even University. But it does take a lot of care and involvement.

I am a counselor, not a Psyc-doc, but I always advocate the involvement of all family members. Social support is grossly undervalued and the supporters themselves face a lot of heart-ache and difficulties.

The biggest problem for all counselors and psychologists are the american HMO's. They allot a certain amount of time for counseling and then demand that the patients get cut off. If you are not a private patient or have access to superior health insurance you are more or less screwed (pardon the expression). I don't want to go on about this, it will only lead to a tirade...let's just say that I don't like the way health care is handled by the HMO's, whose priorities are as followed:
1. Profit
2. Profit
3. Profit
4. Health? What's that?
5. Patient? How much can we make off her/him?
Well, you get my drift

Oh, yes, we wound up paying out of pocket quite a bit when we were with an hmo way back when. Luckily, Georgia has a lot of free programs for special needs children.
The thing with autism is, if you look at all the "symptoms" required for diagnosis, just about anyone can relate to many of them. And some doctors who aren't specialized in the area carelessly misdiagnose autism. Jamie's physician knew better and referred us to a specialist. He was concerned about the fact that he wasn't speaking yet (except for echolalia, which is a common autistic trait which means the person "parrots back to you" everything you say to him/her) and mentioned autism as a possibility, but did not diagnose it. In fact he said he couldn't diagnose it, as that wasn't his specialty.

Bravo to your physician. I get very upset when health care providers haphazardly diagnose, prescribe, treat, etc. A few bad apples usually give the whole profession a proverbial 'black eye'. True, very true, for autism and its diagnosis and treatment you need a specialist, especially since the problems faced by the individual and her/his family are so many.

The prominent features of autism, such as lack of responsiveness, language and communication problems, unusual motor movements, rigid behavior, are usually misunderstood, and prone to lead to misdiagnosis of the actual disorder. They cover a whole range of other disorders, many of them of pure biological origin. A specialist is the only one that can properly diagnose, prescribe and treat. I'm so very glad you have access to free services. Behavioral therapy, communication training, parent training, and hopefully community integration take time and effort. It is especially important that the patients and their social support system don't lose heart or hope.

THANK YOU, both of you, for saying this. My family has a lot of mental difficulties and illness in it, and I've had struggles myself, but trying to get some of my 'friends' to understand that when I do research about mental health and muse in writing about what I've gone through and discovered I'm not being a drama queen or looking for pity has been damned near impossible. Some of them don't even believe most mental illness exists, on basis of what I don't know. It's like they can't understand that a diagnosis doesn't magically put someone into a little box from which they cannot or will not escape - it's a way to understand what is going on with that person and how to deal with it. I've been wanting to take them by the shoulders and shake them in sheer frustration. Thank you for letting me know that there are people who get it.

My family has struggled with mental illness, as well, and I've also had my share of it. In 1990, while in college, I was having absolutely debilitating panic attacks. I became agoraphobic and it got to the point where all I could do was lie on the couch with ice packs all over my head. This went hand-in-hand with a major depression. At the time, not much was known about depression or anxiety, so I didn't really know what was happening to me. I just hit a brick wall. I was going to drop out of college, but I began medication and therapy and was well enough to change my mind at the last minute. My roommate, who was one of my best friends and a psychology major had the nerve to tell me that it was just a "convenient" illness. She was used to happy-go-lucky party-girl me, and was now seeing a more muted me. But she never saw me when I was at my lowest point.
Tom Cruise's idiotic comments really pissed me off. I have had to deal with people telling me to just "get over it" since my episode in '90, that I "don't need medication". Would those same people go up to a person with a broken leg in a cast and say, "you don't need that cast. Shake it off!" (shut up, JM ;)). It may be partly because my friends all kind of see me as a goofy clown and can't picture me being anything but that, so they don't take me seriously. That's the face I choose to show the world, though.   

Again, I am impressed with the wisdom and the intelligence of the people here.  :)  Thank you, thank you for that.   :D

I can see JMP's point that sometimes, some people do misuse lables, and even hide behind them or use them to their advantage.  I work in the human services field (am trying to get out:  anyone have a job in a nice museum or archive where I can bury myself in books and research files?  :)  ) and I see those people every day.  "I can't work, I'm tryin' to get disability."  "What's your disability?"  "Ummmm, I am _________."  (enter in the disorder-of-the-month).  We also see a lot of those with "Anxiety" or "depression" that are really drug addicts.  They may have, once upon a time, actually had a problem and needed therapy.  They went to one of those HMO docs or medicaid clinic docs and instead of being given a mental health referral, they were given a prescription for valium or prozac or a whole "cocktail" of meds, and then asked to come back every month for monitoring.   >:(  They build up a tollerance for the drugs, they aren't really helped because what they need is therapy, not drugs, and then they get more and more drugs.  And they self-medicate with street drugs of alcohol.  This isn't a blanket assessment of everyone on those drugs, please do not get me wrong, because I know that medications can be helpful.  But in the instances I'm talking about, it's just adding a new problem to an old problem.  And, just like you said, veilchin, I think it's done for profit.  I've always said that our country is rulled by the Oil Barrons, Drug Companies, and Insurance Companies.  Insurance Companies even have the ablility to control life and death in some instances.  If someone is poor and needs a certain treatment, if the insurance company denies the treatment and they cannot find an alternative, then the person dies. 

Brynne:  That's great Jamie has a Speical Needs School.  We're in rural NC, so that is not available here.  But our school district has a wonderful lady in Al's elementary school who specializes in teaching kids with Autistic Spectrum Disorder.  She even traveled with Allen to middle school the 1st year and did a period of pull-out classes, and then worked with his teachers to help them understand Allen's needs and how to motivate him.  I've only been called to school twice for problem behaviors.  The 1st time he was in 1sr grade and he was picking his nose on the bus.  Some children started teasing him and he ended up smacking a kid, with his dirty fingers no less!   :P  The second time, he was singing and laughing in class.  This was in 7th grade.  The school is great, they know me pretty well because I'm a fierce Momma Bear when it comes to any of my babies, and espeically my Allen.  :)  I think they are afraid not to be.  I would have burnt down that A-hole's house, Brynne.  Or went home, got my husband's shotgun, and shot him!! 

I can compare Allen to certain charecters from TV and movies, and people "get it."  My favorite one is Adam Sandler's charector on "The Waterboy."  "Now, that's some premium H2O."  Yeah, that's definately AS Obsessive behavior.  LOL  (And yes, I do go around yelling, "Allen, girls are THE DEVIL!' LOL)  Another one is Data from Star Trek.  Data is always trying to tell jokes and never quite makes it.  Al's the same way.  He tells this absolutely silly, makes no sense, statement, and then when the "victim" is sitting there, speechless, binking, Al asks, "Did you think my joke was funny?"  My last one is Forrest Gump.  Allen has that sweet, sensitive, side of him, and that simplistic way of looking at things that other people miss because they were "overthinking."  A lot of people also know of Ausitm from the movie "Rain Man", and when Allen was 1st diagnosed, that was what I was told he would be like.  Thank God, with therapy and hard work (and lots of love, I'd like to think!) he's much better now. 

Brynne, I'd love to chat sometime about our boys.  :)  I just finished up Middle School, so I know exactly what you're going through.  This December, Allen will be 15.  In NC, kids take driver's ed the semsester before they turn 15 and then get their learner's permit.  In a few weeks, my son will be driving!! :'( :'(

See what I mean with the 'few bad apples' remark Val? I hope that person did not pursue psychology on the masters or doctoral level, and your comparison to the broken leg is absolutely true. A psych-doc friend of mine is counseling an anorexia victim, and so far with little success. The girl is practically dying in front of his eyes, but the social support for the girl is practically non-existing. Her mother actually told him that she feels the disorder is just a way of 'begging for attention' and that her daughter should 'just get over it'. The mind boggles.

He wasn't giving away priviledged information, he never mentioned any identifying characteristics, by the way. Psychologists and counselors do operate under the 'priviledged information ethic'.

I wish with all my heart that mental illness will one day be thought of as just what it is, a legitimate illness, acknowledged and treated properly. It is unfortunate that it is still misunderstood and often misdiagnosed, but the scientific community is trying to correct that. Unfortunately, it is often as if we are trying to stem a tide with a toothpick.

Hypochondria and psychosomatic illnesses are both found in the medical and psychological field, and strangely enough, are disorders in and of themselves. When I went to my first 'abnormal psychology' class way back when (another one of my pet peeves...what exactly is abnormal, and who gets to decide what it is?), my professor warned us that in all likelyhood we would find some of the symptoms within ourselves. She said that whenever she lectured on a particular disorder, more than half of the students would discover symptoms of that disorder in themselves. And right she was.

We all have our little idiosyncracies, but when it comes to actual unipolar or bipolar depression or anxiety we should be glad we are spared that (I won't even get into the personality disorders or schizophrenia) It is hard to make people understand that real depression is far more and far deeper than the occasional 'blues' we all experience, and far more crippling than even the worst of the non-fatal physical illnesses. Especially when the afflicted have no idea what is happening to them and on top of all that have to deal with people who can't see that this is not something the afflicted have wished upon themselves. Clinical depression and anxiety disorders are very frightening indeed.

There are plenty of charlatans in any field, my one wish and hope is that those in desperate need will find a caring and competent health care provider.

I don't even want to think about Jamie getting behind the wheel of a car. He still wets the bed!
Before I found out Jamie had autism, my only reference to it was Rainman. Jamie's nothing like that. I was in serious denial about his autism because of that.

My father is bipolar with psychotic episodes, so I definitely know how tough that can be. I've never had a psychotic episode (knock on head), but I have been diagnosed with bipolar. Then rediagnosed with dysthymia with episodic severe depression. Then diagnosed bipolar again. It's still an inexact science. All I know is that the current cocktail of meds I take are now allowing me to lead a normal life.

Oh, Veilchen, my doctor called what you described as "Second-Year Psychology Student Syndrome", where you can identify with everything in the book.

Ah yes, Rainman.

Few people understand that the savant syndrome is actually a cognitive based function not limited to autism, but is also found in other major mental disabilities or intellectual handicaps.

Now you've piqued my interest!  What is the "savant syndrome"?

I was a psychiatric nurse trainee many years ago. The very first thing we were told was that we would identify some of our behaviours with the patients. It was described to me as a continuum, the patients' behaviours were generally no different to that of a 'normal' person, their behaviours just became so obsessive / excessive / anti-social / dangerous, that they were in a mental hospital.

The old way of referring to this was 'idiot savant' I believe. Meaning that people who were markedly non-intelligent could nonetheless do remarkable stunts, often mathematical or pattern recognition sorts of things - music, maths, memory. An example might be of a person  multiplying very large numbers in their heads very fast, for instance, when they were not able to tie their own shoelaces.

"My father is bipolar with psychotic episodes, so I definitely know how tough that can be. I've never had a psychotic episode (knock on head), but I have been diagnosed with bipolar." (Brynne)

Brynne, bipolar disorder is not mental, but physical disease - it's lack of Dopamine and/or Serotonin in the brain cells, which cause psychotic episodes. I think they found that Omega 3 (fish oil pills) can cure it, without taking pills. I receive medical e-mailed news, and someone there described that he was cured only by taking Omega 3. Worth a net search...:).


 

Gali, I think you'll find Lithium (which is a form of salt I think) is the crucial factor in bi-polar. Some people can get by without it if they have a mild case, others cannot. I read a book, the buzz of bi-polar is the wonderful crystalline speedy 'high' that these sufferers experience, the sense of being godlike and better than the rest of the slow moving, slow thinking slugs that inhabit this planet.

The book I read was written by a woman who now heads a medical facility of some sort in the States, she has chosen to use Lithium and be stabilised but grieves for the flat nature of her life. Wonderful book, wish I could remember title and author.

I think bi-polar disorder must be like taking speed. My b'f's mother & my ex best mate are both sufferers. My mate wouldn't take Lithium because she loved the highs, even knowing she would pay later with black depression.

Serotonin and dopamine are chemicals often found lacking in addicts/alcoholics I have read. Many drugs like opiates, nicotine and alcohol feed into the seratonin and dopamine receptors, helping to create the physical basis of many addictions. 'Runner's High' was something to do with this area of the brain also.

I'm (almost afraid to say it here) bipolar.  I have a form of bipolar disorder (creatively referred to as "bipolar II") in which I don't get to experience those great manic phases as often as other bipolars.  Before I was treated for it, I would, about twice a year, have a manic phase in which my creativity would peak and I wouldn't really sleep for a week or so.  What I get the abundance of are the really, really low depression phases.  It lasts most of the time.  I got to a point where I was agoraphobic, and stayed home for a year or so...I didn't even make my doctor appointments and wouldn't leave the house for them.  Other people in my family would have to make my appointments and drag my ass to them.   At the time I was seeing a "health professional" who was of the flavor-of-the-week drug dispenser.  She put me on so much crap that I eventually decided it wasn't worth it and I would live with the staying home and never getting out of bed.  Before that point I had crippling panic attacks in public, and this is why I can't work outside the home, and I'm one of those wierd recluse medical transcription people that work from home lol....anyway my point is, once I was finally diagnosed, and treated with the right medication, the difference was absolutely amazing.  I don't know how I lived up to that point. 

It's frustrating for people that don't understand, the ones that tell you to "get over it," so frustrating! Now, with what I'm taking, I have enough balance to interact with people and deal with the prospect of work and school. 

So the moral of the story is that I identify, and know exactly what you mean.  I worry that my kids will pick up that depression gene, if it exists, and it's terrifying!

I appreciate what you're saying, but although omega 3 pills may help mild cases, much as St. John's Wort does with mild depression, it is not a cure. There is no cure. (And fish pills are still "pills" ;)). I don't know why so many people can't understand that pills are not evil and can mean the difference between life and death for many people. Sure, there are profits companies are after and pills are way, way, overprescribed, and that unfortunately adds fuel to the "depression doesn't need medication" argument. But the legitimate cases often need medication to correct the chemical imbalances. Like a diabetic and insulin. And, yes, that part is physical. But it causes a mental disease. Meaning, it affects your mentality, your way of thinking, etc. My dad's psychosis also has physical,or chemical,rather, causes as well.  This is a life-long illness. Although I feel pretty good now, I still have to remember to take my meds daily. I accept that. Lithium was the first thing I was prescribed, along with a ton of vitamins (my doctor was more into the "natural treatments". I'm now on different medications. My dad also started with Lithium. He's also gone through the diet changes, exercise, everything. He has been on just about every medication now, some would work for a while, most had no effect. He's gone through ECT, as well. Now he is on MAOIs, which is a very restrictive drug, and usually a last resort. He is one of the small percentage of people who don't seem to benefit from the drugs available, and that devastates him. When I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a close family member try to commit suicide last Christmas, I was referring to my father. 

Is that the one where you're not allowedto go  in sunlight? Is that why you say restrictive Brynne? My mate was on some drugs & she couldn't go in the sun. She is a pale redhead as well, very bad with the high intensity sun in New Zealand.

No, I don't think they have sunlight restrictions, although they may. They require a very restricted diet. Nothing aged, like cheese or wine, etc, no chocolate, no a-lot-of-things-I-can't-remember. The combination can be fatal. 

I have a love of writing. I hope to be an author. I think you can create beautiful art through literature :)

Boggles! The ignorance of some is truly astounding. Does this woman not realise that her daughter is responding to her parents less than excellent parenting skills and that they have had no mean part to play in her illness? Yes, she's crying out for help, but their self-obsession is killing her.

Like you, I counsell people too, and have worked in the Mental Health field for a little while though I've ended up in kids and learning disabilities. My experience has lead me to see that the general populace has little or no understanding of the issues of what are minority groups and no empathy or sympathy. I become depressed about the service I offer as it is underfunded and understaffed and the burn-out is awful. It is unsolvable unless huge amounts of money are to thrown at it, so that there is better education and information available, and staff. Some of the kids I work with are so challenging that they need 4 people with them to access any facilities at all, and how can you sustain that level of staffing when it all grinds back to cash? I worry what will happen to these young people once the magic number 18 comes about as in Britain there is very little care available for adults. I could weep with it all...

Hey, bi-polar has some distinguished people in its midst and many of the greatest artists had this illness. At the peak of the psychotic periods their creativity knew no bounds... Winston Churchill, anyone? Spike Milligan, one of the greatest comics in British history was completely crippled at times but still managed to produce work like Q8 and The Goons.

What's wrong with that? I'm constantly locked in this mode myself. SLEEP IS FOR WUSSES!

Meh, you just need to focus on the above and ignore the rest.

I have an answer for you there: Don't have kids. Why is this such a hard concept?

Ah, fish oil. Fish oil is one of my favorite beverages, about the only part of fish I actually enjoy! I fry potatoes in fish oil. And I drink it straight.

And there we have proof positive that fish oil does not work, ladies and germs...

fish oil...  *shudder*

I take it for chronic fatigue syndrome (the discussion on what that is can wait for another time), it works well there, but does stuff all for the arthritis that it is supposed to be good for that I also have...

Ness

There goes my gagging reflex again.

in my part of the world, we encourage taking goat milk pills. Nasty, IMHO haha. Leaves a strange after taste.

yeah, fish oil is pretty disgusting...  the capsules themselves have no taste, but they do tend to repeat on you, and believe me it is hard to think of much that is worse than burping fish all day!

I'm actually a little surprised that in the time I've been sleeping, nobody has come out yelling that there is no such thing as chronic fatigue syndrome...  it appears to be one of the least understood conditions, simply because it's not a condition itself but a blanket diagnostic name given to a whole bunch of symptoms that arise from metabolic disorders...

Ness

Hooo, that one is a really sticky mess. I know several people with this diagnosis, one of whom is very ill indeed as she already has an existing heart condition. Does exist, but as you say, it's a blanket term.

Thank you all for talking about Asperger's Syndrome. My son, now 25, was given a diagnosis of ADHD at age 4, then "non-specific schizophreniform disorder" at age 13. This was all before AS had been recognized. He meets all the criteria for AS; his current obsession is with airplanes, and he spends his days playing with a flight simulator. Since you can't force a legal adult into evaluation and treatment without a court order, he will probably remain obsessed with one thing or another (and thus unemployable) forever. He goes to job interviews and talks about...airplanes.  ::)

I'm a rapid-cycling bipolar for whom all types of medication have proved useless. Fun, no? Sleep may be for wusses, but I'd love to have one good night of it nonetheless.

I work with children with severe Autism, and have found joy in it.  Even when we have our "moments" I still love each and every one of them.  I also have some students with AS, and I enjoy them as well.  I find that even in their quirkiness, there is so much that we can learn from them.  I have found some of my students who have autism and AS to be my brightest kids.  Difficult, always, but very bright and always a refreshing challenge.  I wholeheartedly admire parents who love and cherish their kids who have these types of needs on a daily basis, and I marvel at the patience they exhibit.   :)

Chronic fatigue syndrome is called LAZINESS. You are simply FAT and LAZY. And need MORE CAFFEINE.

I *STILL* insist this is some imaginary disease they've invented, and that your son is simply an airplane nut. Maybe he should try working at an airport. That should give him plenty of planes.

Well now JM, that's not fair. Just because you are unique, doesn't mean we all are. I mean, we know you can do a hundred and one things at once: fix games, build über-bathrooms, build 8G elevators, conquer the galaxy, shoot your food and beverage, while chewing your caffeine, but these are all things that are JM unique. The rest of us have to be useless logs for several hours at night, can't use caffeine in its pure state, and even go so far as actually cooking our food. And some of us do get sick, including chronically fatigued. I know, a concept completely alien to you El Presidente, but then again, there is no one like you :D

Cross my heart, we didn't invent autism, it's unfortunately very real. Would I lie to you?

Hairfish, I am so sorry to hear this. Unfortunately this still happens today, even though the Diagnostics Manual prohibits diagnosing ADHD when a PDD (Pervasive Development Disorder) is present. However, ADHD symptoms match many Asperger's symptoms and clinicians can overlook symptoms of PDD and simply diagnose ADHD. There is an organisation that helps families with adult familiy members diagnosed with Asperger's. I'm not very familiar with the organisation, but here's the address:

http://www.faaas.org/sitemap.html#services

If you already know about it, I apologize, but it can't hurt to check into it if you didn't.

JM, I thought I got through to you the other day. Someone please send me some Rogaine. I'm going bald.

Hairfish, I guess you just gave me a little window into my son's future. He has his obsessions,  too, although I wish they were as exciting as airplanes. Jamie can tell you every make of garage-door opener there is, how many buttons it has, if it lights up, comes in a keychain version...I don't know how many times we've gone to Home Depot to get paint supplies or something, and had to make an hour-long stop at the garage door section. And at stop lights, if the car next to us had a garage door opener clipped to its visor, Jamie would roll down his window and yell at the guy so he could ask what kind it was. I would just be staring straight ahead at the stop light, begging for it to turn green!  For me, this was a step up from his earlier obsession with windshield wipers. He still will occasionally ask me what kind of windshield wipers someone's car had, and since they all look the same to me, I'd be at a loss for an answer, thus provoking a melt-down. I bought him a disposable camera, took him on a trip to a used car lot, and let him photograph all the windshields so he could put the pictures in a photo album. All the while, salesmen are following us around, puzzled. Jamie is extremely artistic. Whether it's windshield wipers, or garages, he would make such detailed paper models of them. I mean detailed. The garages would have paneled doors that were on paper (or cardboard, rather) "rails", so you could actually open and close them. There would be the garage door whatchamawhozit on the ceiling, with a tag hanging down. 3D masterpieces, and as soon as he finished one, he would abandon it to create an even better one. Currently, he's obsessed with super-heroes, and makes comic books. They all have to have their arm chopped off so it can be replaced by a mechanical one. He thinks that's so cool.
You do definitely learn to have a sense of humor about these things!       

right, I'm just not as awesome as JM...  however, I will not let anyone call me lazy, when for the last five years since I was diagnosed I've remained in full time employment!

the conditions I have may slow me down but I don't let them stop me in any way, except for perhaps the odd day here and there...

I've worked with kids who aspergers before - one of them (who we were told was inceredibly severe) actually progressed to the point where he could make jokes with us...  He would have finished school by now, sadly I moved on to another one and never did hear what became of him.

Ness

I'm a mech. engineer, but during college I worked in a frame shop, so theres  a little are, but mostly i'm an enginerd. and I LOVE the sims. :)

Also, my dad's girlfriend's cousin's son, (seriously) has asperger's and does not socialize well at all, but reads alot and can regurgitate it years later, amazing.

Interesting. I have Fibromyalgia and some chronic fatigue issues that don't fit the fibro profile. May need to buy some fish oil capsules.

not necessarily...  the fish oil came out of some hideously expensive tests which analysed in minute detail just which fats were in my blood and which amino acids were in my urine - that way they could figure out what was going wrong in the body...

my CFS mainly affected me in cognitive ways (ever forgotten what you were saying quite literally in the middle of saying it?  looked at a class of kids you've taught for 18 months and suddenly not known a single name?) and emotional ways - basically I was a depressed and miserable wet rag who couldn't remember a darn thing and could hardly move during the day, but would lie awake all night and be completely unable to sleep... scary days!

the omega 3 fish oils are one of the building blocks of serotonin, supplement that and the body can then make it properly, slowly correcting the problem - without those tests (and the company is no longer in existence), it would be difficult to know which particular oil you may need - could be fish oil, could be evening primrose oil, I even heard of a case where it turned out to be palmitic acid (found in coconut milk)

I do hope you manage to find something that works for the fibromyalgia...  I know just how sucky it can be to have a condition that the medical world knows basically nothing about - no sooner did we get the CFS under control than a weird arthritic condition affecting every single joint in my body popped up - sort of responded, sort of didn't, no sign of what it actually is, so no idea of how to actually treat the thing!

Ness

Yep. All of that is so familiar. And if I take meds that make me sleep at night, I'm pretty much worthless all the next day. I used to have a fantastic memory, but not anymore. This all started for me with a severe case of autoimmune thyroiditis. I have no thyroid function at all on my own. I was diagnosed 6 years ago and other than a few brief periods, I have been unwell and symptomatic all this time. Very frustrating. At first, my endo thought that the extreme pain was caused by the thyroid deficiency, but when my levels finally became 'normal', I was still in pain constantly. The thyroid problem also gave me a heart condition. The fun never ends!


Fibromyalgia is definitely related to a serotonin deficiency. You should see the slew of meds I've been on to try to increase serotonin. It boggles my mind sometimes. I've heard about increasing Omega 3's to help boost serotonin, but I've never tried it. It would be worth some trial and error if I could hit on something that might help. Pain is now at least tolerable most days, but I still have debilitating fatigue and some other things going on. I've been tested and retested for Lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, and numerous other autoimmune diseases.


I am fortunate in that I have a fantastic rheumatologist who is pretty aggressive in treatment. The problem is that I do a bit better for a time, and then I'm right back where I started. You're right though, it's not easy having an illness few people understand. And then there are those who don't believe these disorders even exist, which makes me so angry.  I'd like for those people to live this for a month or so, and then tell me it isn't real. Trust me, if I could just 'get over it', I would have a long time ago.

Meh, why buy fish oil capsules when you can just buy raw fish oil and drink it straight from the bottle, like I do?

reggikko!  that sounds so similar to my story...

about 6 years ago I got Barmah Forest Virus, which is a weird mosquito-borne virus we have here in Australia - it trashed my liver and I landed in hospital with severe pain one night and after heaps of tests they figured I had this virus - and that's what was causing the fatigue and pain - unfortunately, once the virus had gone dormant again (I was told I would have it for the rest of my life, and hopefully it would stay dormant) the fatigue and pain never stopped...  they labelled me with post-viral chronic fatigue syndrome and told me to rest (sole income earner working full time and rapidly running out of sick leave, not going to happen!)...  time went on, and the post-viral got dropped from the name, that's when we elected to do the tests

from there, fish oil capsules and an amino acid supplement had me improving, the sleep was another issue altogether and after becoming completely dependent on sleeping tablets for a while (not fun!), I started using SAMe (another serotonin building block) and the sleep issues were pretty much resolved.  At one point in time I was taking nearly 20 tablets a day with medications and supplements to try to manage my condition.

For a year or so, I did ok - the supplements were working and I had enough energy to function properly in my job (couldn't do much after a day at work, but I resembled a normal human being), vioxx (yes, I was on it for years!) managed the pain levels, and my GP happily kept prescribing it for me until he left the surgery - at which point so did I - all the other doctors would tell me there was nothing wrong with me, even when I had severe sinus infections...

new doctor, no longer happy to just prescribe vioxx, started running tests - I've been tested for them all, too - so many blood tests I've actually got scarring on the inside of my elbow!  all negative - and the virus I was told I would never be rid of has gone.  My rheumatologist is great - very blunt, and doesn't like me stuffing around with medications - took a year for him to convince me to take prednisone (which basically only happened when I could no longer walk) - now he's pushing the methotrexate line, which is pretty scary!  So now I've been labelled with serum-negative rheumatoid arthritis, which even the specialist admits is the label they apply when they haven't got the foggiest clue what the problem is!  He's not giving up, but seems to be thinking that we may never discover what it is, but we may be lucky enough to discover a treatment that works...

the SAMe stuff is great - pretty expensive, but it's worth it for the fact that I can now sleep, I'd certainly suggest looking into that one, and if you decide to go the fish oil, try to find a reflux-free one - otherwise, take it half way through a meal, and even though they don't say to do so, keep it in the fridge!

I hope you eventually find success in your treatment...  and getting back to the original topic of the thread, it's actually quite amazing how many chronically ill people you find playing the sims...

Ness

Original topic?  My first post here and I gotta say, there's nothing like a message board that allows threads to evolve or devolve (depending on your perspective ;) ).  I hate linear conversations.

On autisim:  my 13 year old's official diagnosis is "Aspergers Only He's Not".   He's somewhere in the high functioning autism spectrum and displays many Aspergers characteristics, but branches off in other areas like socialization.

Life with Dan - "Dan, can you feed the dog, please?"   "Okay, Mom, I just have to wait another minute." "Why's that?"  "Because it's 6:21.  I don't like the numbers 19 or 21 so I try to wait until the next minute."  Pause. "Okay, it's 6:22 now." He jumps up brightly.  "Oh, and 41. I don't like the hour plus 41 because it's 19 minutes before the next hour."

No mention of 6:39, 21 minutes before the next hour, but the dog got fed so life is good. :D

If you haven't read "A Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime"  you are missing a great novel that also lets you into the wonderful world of AS thinking.

On the original topic, you'd have to classify me as a Business Person, since I am one, but I'm also creative so :p  I'd think that because the Sims is so open ended it would attract all kinds.  You get to make up your own rules, how cool is that.  (You can make up your own rules in RL, too, it's just harder to make everybody else play along.)

Andrea

That's the title I've been trying to remember, to recommend to Pescado. Excellent book! Welcome non-linear windy_moon!

"Curious Incident..." is absolutely brilliant and if you don't understand something about ASD after reading it then you're probably too obtuse. Also good is "Freaks, Geeks and Asperger's Syndrome."

JM, get a plane over to Blighty and I'll introduce you to some of my more challenging young people. I'd like you working the floor with them especially when one of the transitions people with ASD can't cope with happen. I seriously advise body armour!

and back to the Sims...

I think it's safe to say that while certain 'types' may find the game more appealing, you will find all types playing it

I prefer raw vodka...

I figured you'd just wring the fish straight into your mouth.

I just pictured that Val, and I'm still laughing.

Thanks, I needed that, it's been a very bad week already and it's only Wednesday.

Hey, VC! Apparently fish oil does work wonders.
Haven't talked to you much lately. Rough week here, as well. Putting it mildly.

My mom has fibromylagia. And I know someone with Aspergers' who's obsessed with wolves.

Yeah Val, I'm planning on coming on over the weekend. I need someone to kick the funk right out of me :D

I had to deal with a 15 year old pregnant girl who got the shit beat out of her by her 'boyfriend' for getting pregnant. Her parents thought the best way to deal with that was to kick her out of the house. *Sigh* people sometimes make me ill. My fingers were itching to post in the other thread, but I don't have the strength to get involved in an argument about that particular issue right now.  Ah well, I'm working on it, and I can get it done. I can be a very persistent person, or, in the words of one of my counselees, a "pushy broad" (he didn't mean that in "a bad way"). :D

I sometimes get the urge to get my own bunker in the mountains somewhere mountainous and just ignore the human race at will.

That's a fantasy of mine, too...but it would have to have Internet access.

Re: Asperger's obsessions, airplanes are not my son's only interest. He's also into athro-art, and draws HUGE fat, furry naked women. He's very good ~ he does commisions and earns enough to pay his share of our DSL, with enough left over to keep his aged computer in top condition (computers: another obsession of his, which works out well for me! I have my own personal techie  ;D). Too bad there are no patrons of anthro-art around here, someone who could take him under their wing so to speak and promote his talents and make us all filthy rich. *sigh*

Weyhey...! Fifty six posts to get my lips ripped off... I'm so happy, I'm so happy. Lord knows how the hell I'll manage my cake now.  ::)

I would so love a retreat somewhere. By the sea, with a few beautiful mountains thrown in to look at. Maybe I could even crack on with some real art and finish that painting I've got stacked in my room.

Egads. I'm never going on a vacation ever again. Ever. Too many unread posts . . .

My personal adventures in psychology have been fairly tame: moderate depression edging into severe, due to a combination of chemical issues and school not working, treatment, school change, and now getting back to "normal." Oh, and "mild ADHD," for which I take Concerta. Not sure whether it actually fixes a "disorder" in me, but it does improve my ability to focus on my own projects and other enjoyable things. I don't know nearly as much about autism, AS, or the related behaviors and patterns as I'd like, especially since I've come across them in my sporadic researches into GT education, and recognize mild versions of a few of the symptoms in myself. I have a spotty short term memory (names and where I put things can be gone in a few minutes) but I can remember all sorts of random details from a book I read or a vacation I went on six years ago. And that business about garage door openers sounds quite interesting, although I can see how it would be aggravating if that was the only thing a person talked about.

On a related note, one of my psychologists (goverment, through my dad being Coast Guard, and didn't have nearly enough time to do anything other than prescribe medication, so we went elsewhere for counseling) tried to diagnose me with "Oppositional Defiant Disorder" because I wasn't too keen on taking medication for the "mild ADHD-like symptoms," as this didn't sound like it was much of a problem and I wanted to do my own research. And possibly because I'd told her that I planned on starting a revolution.

I have some very severe doubts about "Oppositional Defiant Disorder," or whatever it is, as the diagnostic criteria seems to be mainly "is between the ages of 12 and 18," but I know from experience that anyone who says "its all in your head" about depression, autism, or any other mental eccentricity that causes persistent problems should be dumped off the nearest bridge. Or lit on fire, if there isn't a handy bridge.

the first school I worked in there was a kid we were told had oppositional defiance disorder...  we never could exactly figure out what it was - his parents were not exactly forth-coming with information!

I hear you on the bridge-dumping - there's quite a few doctors that I'd love to do that to!  these days, I ask my friends who they see, and who's good before I even contemplate seeing any new GPs...  and once I find one, I stick with them - people think I'm strange for seeing a male doctor for pap smears, but it's important to me to have everything treated by the same person!

I hope you enjoyed your break, oddysey...  I'm taking a few days off sick at the moment, and even though I feel like crap, a couple of days away from work is doing wonders for my mental state!

Ness

Semantic Pragmatic Disorder is something I've seen diagnosed recently in kids. I'm uncertain as to what it is but believe that it may boil down to "...your teenager is an awkward little get with a smart mouth that needs his/her arse kicking..." Maybe...  ;D Give the kid some decent boundaries and work at respect, for god's sake!

Semantic pragmatic disorder? A disorder that involves a sensible use of words?

Ah, no, here it is:
# delayed language development
# learning to talk by memorising phrases, instead of putting words together freely
# repeating phrases out of context, especially snippets remembered from television programmes
# muddling up 'I' and 'you'
# problems with understanding questions, particularly questions involving 'how' and 'why'
# difficulty following conversations


To the website! So you can steal the bullet list yourself! (http://www.mugsy.org/spd.htm)

Apparently it's one of those autistic spectrum things. But whoever named it was insane.

Or suffering from aforementioned disorder. ;P

Edit: Oddysey, your link doesn't work.

Copypaste it, don't click, and it works fine.

Jeez. My son is all of the above, and I've never heard that name, before.

Fixed the link. Hopefully. Works for me now, at least. This is what I get for not sleeping enough the past couple of days . . . ugh.

It looks like the professional definition obsessives (Say, that'd make a good disorder name. It'd cover lawyers AND M.D.s) have decided they want to break up autism into a bunch of modular disorders, each of which comprises a group of behaviors that usually come in packs. So one kid might have behaviors A, B, and C, while another has D, E and F, but they can both be labeled autistic because some kids have B, C, and F or A, C and D. Makes some sense, considering that these researchers are finding that a large variety of behaviors can be linked to similiar physiological causes. I just hope that this will make life easier for people, rather than making this even more complicated than it already is.

Or it could just be that researchers and doctors and such like coming up with new disorders. "Let's see how many pages we can cram into the next edition of the DM-whatever."

Yes, it is linked to autism, but I have seen it being diagnosed in mainstream kids too. Hence the "kick the backside and get a grip comment". I loathe diagnosis that is just waved at child's general direction and does not take into account its socialisation.

I am currently at University, hoping to get a bachelors degree in Biochemistry and microbiology.

Hope is not a lot of help. Try studying. 

Necromancy is bad, 'mkay?