Ghetto Superstar Challenge

[Zazazu]

I see aspiration objects in those pics! Naughty. 

Shall give this a roll with one of my Free Love Cult offspring. I just can't decide between it being fugly Blythe (bad gene splicing) or Brook (cute as a button). That family has four adults, seven kids, and at least two more on the way. Any options for starting as a teen? I can clear their skill points, and they have no adult friends outside the family. Blythe has the added bonus of being a Fortune sim.

[pbox]

I see aspiration objects in those pics! Naughty. 

Which pics, my pics? I think that's the synctimer you're seeing 

[Zazazu]

Suuuure, if that's the story you're telling. 
Anyways, I was impressed with your squalor.

[jolrei]

1. Start with a house with 2 bedrooms, kitchen, bathroom, and living/dining combination.  Basic fixtures in bath.  1 counter, cheapest fridge and a cheap barbecue in the back yard...

3. Only move in is for marriage...

5. Allow promotions and skilling normally

6. (..) they can buy baby toys, or anything they like, as long as they can afford it

Where exactly would be the challenge in that?

I'm just saying that there seems to be a contradiction in that the rules seem to suggest that you can have skilling items, but never use the skills (i.e. to get promoted).  Testers so far seem to have supplemented income using the easel, for example.  My suggestion was to start with nothing (perhaps walls and floors and a basic cheap fridge.  The challenge would be to afford anything.  Otherwise the challenge seems to be trying to keep the sim from getting promoted while making them highly skilled as well.  I suppose one could ensure that they simply did not develop all the skills necessary for promotion (i.e. skip skilling in one area).

I gather that the point of the challenge is to keep the founder and spawn in a state of more-or-less total poverty.  I would note that a sim with maxed out creativity can make between 500-700 simoleans per painting, which could result in some fairly well-off "poor" sims.  Other than that, using the easel or lemonade stand to supplement income might be considered OK, since they depend on skill, rather than job success.

I might try this with one of my Asylum Challenge "leftovers".  I have a romance sim who is "inviting" me to torture her a bit - it would be impolite not to oblige.

[Ellatrue]

I've decided that servos are okay in this challenge, because they don't count as children, and they have to be able to afford the workbench anyway.

I've decided to eliminate the toddler toy exception.

Since skilling is no longer useful for careers, I am thinking of giving .25 points for every sim that maxes out all skills. That way there is a point to limiting the skilling objects to one object per skill.

I might add a penalty for transitioning in aspiration failure.

I think I will also make it so that all objects must be purchased from the catalog. Challenge sims may not purchase items by visiting an owned business lot, because this allows people to set things really cheap for the poverty challenge sims to buy.

I think I'm going to forget about the shower rule. It just means they will have to spend more time on the community lot washing their hands or waiting for the aspiration failure with the sink, and I don't think it really adds that much to the gameplay since they can eventually get clean on the community lot, anyway. Unless that has changed with one of the expansion packs?

There is no way I would allow sims to start with anything more than the cheapest coffee table and a phone. Walls make it too easy! And there is also no way I want to allow promotions. The challenge is to make as much money as you can with only an entry level job, so it is understood that you will have to use other methods. As far as preventing them from getting promoted goes, you'll just have to figure it out. I want the sims to slowly improve their living conditions, but allowing them to get promoted changes the balance of the challenge and make it too easy. The idea is that you should have as many people on the lot as possible, with little money and little space.

I am leaning more strongly toward requiring the download of the 2x1 lot, with 2 squares on the street. There's nothing wrong with downloading a lot if it contains no CC. A basic lot file is just about one of the cleanest things you can add to the game, and if you are worried about it, you can use the clean installer. I want the lot to be as small as possible, so that as the family grows, you have trouble with space constraints. However, I decided that while there doesn't have to be a limit to the number of sims on the lot, moving out should be allowed for people like me with crappy computers who have trouble with lag.

I don't mind that the downside of no move-ins is that you must start with a female sim. I don't really see it as a problem. Not allowing move-ins means, first of all, that your sims can't get the money from the other sim moving in. I also feel like eliminating all the money from the move-in also just makes the rules more complicated. But it is something I would consider. On the other hand, no move-ins means it is harder for your sims to go on dates, and people are less likely to keep moving sims in with the pregnant teen version of the challenge (that was a problem with the other version--even though it is not normal teen behavior). It means that the sim will have trouble initially with caring for children while keeping a job, because there is no adult at home to stay with them. So I like that the no move-ins makes the challenge harder in some small ways. What do you guys think?

As far as adoption goes, Zazazu is right about how it gives an advantage. And I agree that, if it's allowed, it should be limited to babies only. What I can't decide is whether it makes it too easy to grow the family, or if the additional children they can get through adoption is a strategy that is desirable and something I want to allow. After all, it will be a while before they are able to adopt anyway, since the game normally prevents adopting in poverty. It would also allow people to start with a male sim, although it would still be at a disadvantage.

I don't know where I stand on limiting the objects that sims can have to things that make them seem poor. I feel like it's better to only restrict a few objects for that reason, and not worry about the rest of them. So aside from banning a few specific objects for flavor or reasons of gameplay, the sims can buy whatever they can afford. After all, they have to earn the money to get it, anyway.

As far as aging goes, I could always require people to age their sims as soon as the option becomes available. I can also change it so that the child points are not awarded on reaching the teen stage, but subtracted if the kid moves out before then, as with the Poverty Challenge. The only reason for awarding them on reaching teen was to try and simplify that rule, but you guys are right that it causes problems with the grandkids.

Someone suggested a rule to me in grah about only allowing one bedroom for the entire family (and no floor dividers). What do you all think?

[skandelouslala]

Interesting...I shall have to give this one a go.

[msalwaysright]

I think I'm going to forget about the shower rule.

Whew. Even with showers, the approved lots were laid out so that keeping a positive balance on motives was pretty difficult.

There is no way I would allow sims to start with anything more than the cheapest coffee table and a phone. Walls make it too easy!

True. Once I finally had four walls and roof and the bare basics,(couch, sink, refrigerator, grill, toilet) it wasn't that hard to keep
motives up.

I am leaning more strongly toward requiring the download of the 2x1 lot, with 2 squares on the street.... I want the lot to be as small as possible, so that as the family grows, you have trouble with space constraints.

I'm working with basically that size now. I'm using a 3x1 lot, but the sides are raised, preventing me from building anywhere except the very center. I now have four kids and the space constraints are indeed a challenge.

I don't mind that the downside of no move-ins is that you must start with a female sim. I don't really see it as a problem. Not allowing move-ins means, first of all, that your sims can't get the money from the other sim moving in....So I like that the no move-ins makes the challenge harder in some small ways. What do you guys think?

Besides the money issue, move-ins help with the kids, really neat ones do the dishes, etc.
For example, all my sim's kids have the same father and he has started dropping by and autonomously helping out. If he lived-in full-time, it would be too much of an advantage as far as keeping the spirit of this challenge.

I don't know where I stand on limiting the objects that sims can have to things that make them seem poor. I feel like it's better to only restrict a few objects for that reason, and not worry about the rest of them. So aside from banning a few specific objects for flavor or reasons of gameplay, the sims can buy whatever they can afford. After all, they have to earn the money to get it, anyway.

Cool. I know I've seen plenty of people who seemed 'poor' who had big screen TVs, hottubs, and the like. Especially in the US, thrift stores and flea markets have computers and the like for little to nothing.

Someone suggested a rule to me in grah about only allowing one bedroom for the entire family (and no floor dividers). What do you all think?

That is just evil. I'm not sure, with babies (especially with the Seasons crying issue) the lack of sleep could conceivably kill the whole family.

I think the aesthetic squalor points should be raised,though. Mainly because, boy, do I have a lot of squalor.

[Zazazu]

Especially in the US, thrift stores and flea markets have computers and the like for little to nothing.

There often is a reason that they are so cheap, you know?

I'm starting this this weekend with Blythe, but in adult stage as intended. Both my oldest Free Love kids ended up being Fortune sims, but as Blythe is kind of the odd-girl out (her mom died during her second pregnancy due to "complications", and Blythe herself is the product of some rather awful gene splicing) it seemed more fitting that she'd split off from everyone else. I'll bomb her skill points and relationships with any non-family sims before setting her down.

As for the lot issue, my comments weren't meant to suggest that there's anything wrong with using CC or the itty lots. Quite the contrary. My download folder is back up to 2 gigs, and the mini lots are staples for me. I use the 1x1s frequently for community lots and mini parks, and the 1x2s for row houses. I just meant that some of the community (read: BBS) is still under the false impression that anything hacky will kill your game.

[pbox]

I've decided that servos are okay in this challenge, because they don't count as children, and they have to be able to afford the workbench anyway.

So what would happen, then, if your founder never has children? There wouldn't be any youngest kid transitioning to teen then .. how would you terminate the challenge?

I like that the no move-ins makes the challenge harder in some small ways. What do you guys think?

Absolutely agree -- also, it's making it harder in one pretty big way: if you can't move in anyone, there will be nobody there to cool down or unfreeze the founder (until her own kids are old enough, that is) .. I had real difficulties keeping mine alive during the first summer, so I'm very much in support of that rule 

As far as adoption goes, Zazazu is right about how it gives an advantage. And I agree that, if it's allowed, it should be limited to babies only. What I can't decide is whether it makes it too easy to grow the family, or if the additional children they can get through adoption is a strategy that is desirable and something I want to allow. After all, it will be a while before they are able to adopt anyway, since the game normally prevents adopting in poverty. It would also allow people to start with a male sim, although it would still be at a disadvantage.

Maybe there should be a limit on the number of adopted kids, though? Because otherwise, if you take it to the extreme and adopt a new kid every day, unlimited adoptions would give a huge advantage to people with fast computers (that still run fine with 20 sims on the lot, I mean). Also, any babies adopted in the last few days before the end of the callenge would be "free points" of sorts, if you award child points upon move in (not upon birth, and not when reaching teen) .. you could just adopt them and drop them in a corner, I mean, without having to worry about actually raising them, and still get the points .. so, I'm not really convinced that that adds a lot to the challenge.

But, related question: what's your opinion on cheesecake?

I don't know where I stand on limiting the objects that sims can have to things that make them seem poor. I feel like it's better to only restrict a few objects for that reason, and not worry about the rest of them. So aside from banning a few specific objects for flavor or reasons of gameplay, the sims can buy whatever they can afford. After all, they have to earn the money to get it, anyway.

Near the end of the challenge, I bought a few paintings and super expensive armchairs to make my fortune kids happy -- I must say those wants were a welcome change from always the same private school / sell masterpiece / earn money wants. I think it kinda supports your idea behind making them fortune in the first place, finally being able to buy expensive crap I mean, so I like the fact that this is possible =).

Additional question re. expensive crap: do you know whether or not expensive stuff in the sims' inventories (read date gifts) counts towards net family value? If it does I think it should be subtracted so as to not provide an unfair advantage to Nightlife users.

As far as aging goes, I could always require people to age their sims as soon as the option becomes available.

Don't understand .. why would you want to do that?    *lightbulb* Ah, because of the possible sleep-through-birthday exploit? I'd simply require aging when aging is due, in that case (18:00) .. because as far as I know the option becomes available earlier than that, but I've no idea when exactly, and it might be a bit tedious and distracting if we had to constantly check that for every sim on the lot.

I can also change it so that the child points are not awarded on reaching the teen stage, but subtracted if the kid moves out before then, as with the Poverty Challenge. The only reason for awarding them on reaching teen was to try and simplify that rule, but you guys are right that it causes problems with the grandkids.

I think the Poverty Challenge way is best. Or simply forbidding pre-teen moveouts .. that way, you wouldn't have to juggle points around?

Someone suggested a rule to me in grah about only allowing one bedroom for the entire family (and no floor dividers). What do you all think?

Um, not so fond of that. Feels like a rather arbitrary restriction on the achitectural options .. I think for the "authentic ghetto feel", someone sleeping on the livingroom couch and someone in the kitchen and someone in the veranda works better than one large "dorm room". That strikes me as rather unrealistic. Maybe this is different in other parts of the world, I just know that in my own family (eastern european countryside) the kitchen couch used to be the common thing for the kids (apart from stuffing them into the parents' bed, which we can't do in the game).

Oh, but ..

Someone suggested a rule to me in grah about only allowing one bedroom for the entire family (and no floor dividers). What do you all think?

That is just evil. I'm not sure, with babies (especially with the Seasons crying issue) the lack of sleep could conceivably kill the whole family.

Right -- bedroom might mean babies too .. oh boy .. then I'm afraid I'll have to support that rule 

Also, re. small lots --

I just meant that some of the community (read: BBS) is still under the false impression that anything hacky will kill your game.

Probably, but .. that's not really the target demographic for this kind of challenge is it? =)

[msalwaysright]

I'm nearing the end. Banoobies Brokeass II now has five spawns-one infant, one toddler, two children and a teen-in her little shack, and in two days, she will be an elder.

Squalorific pics:
Nearing the end of week one:                                                                                      Partially into week two:


Baby #2 (I only just noticed that those jammies don't have a pregnancy morph)           Nervous breakdown #1, which came shortly after baby #3


I hope I'm not spamming this thread with unwanted pics, but I haven't had time to organize and post them elsewhere yet.

[Zazazu]

Msalwaysright, have you tried this: http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=237740 ? Freaking fantastic fixes of all Maxis meshes to include the pregnancy morph. Those pjs look like they are based on the sloppy pjs, which one of my Free Lovers uses.

I'm working on this one. I may have taken things a little too literally from the rules as I gave her $100 only and the phone & table had to be purchased from that. Unfortunately I didn't get any jobs that started until Tuesday, which had me very very screwed. I kind of "cheated" by letting her eat out once. Story here: Ghetto Fabulous

She's currently pregnant with #1 and winter starts tomorrow. Only has the cheapest double bed, cheapest toilet, cheapest shower, and half-fridge (I got her a cell phone). She has a lot of fish in her inventory but no way to cook it yet. No walls yet.

[witch]

msalwaysight - I almost want to play this challenge just for the grunge look! Lovely pics. Zazazu's Blythe spirit? Heading straight for purgatory! 

[msalwaysright]

Zazazu, thanks for that link-just what I need. I think you're right about the jammies, I got them from Mermaid's Cove.

I'm working on this one. I may have taken things a little too literally from the rules as I gave her $100 only and the phone & table had to be purchased from that.

That's what I did. I think it left her with maybe $7. I love that you gave Blythe Spirit Taylor some backstory .

msalwaysight - I almost want to play this challenge just for the grunge look!

That's what made me want to try it. I have an entire grunge neighborhood, but I usually just use the motherlode cheat to get the lot way I want it.
This was a much more interesting way to play.

[skandelouslala]

I think you need to make a rule about selling gifts that are lefts on dates... I was playing this challenge last night and was brought a hot tub.  I decided to sell it and well....ended up bored out my mind b/c that totally took the challenge away.  And what about selling flowers left after dates?  Yes or no, must be stashed in inventory?

Also agree that some rule about CC needs to be added...like nothing cheaper than the cheapest Maxis made item when it comes to things like beds...couches ect.  I have some cheaper ones downloaded and it is too much of a cheat...that and some of them, if I tried to sell them back for cash or something they actually sold back for more than I paid for them...dunno what is up with that.

Or maybe there should be a rule that you can't sell anything back that you buy.  If you buy a toilet and run out of food...tough luck you can't sell your toilet to buy any more food.  I think that adds more realism to some extent. 

I'm going to try to play with some of this stuff in place and see if it makes it better for me.

[Zazazu]

Dunno about the date thing. It's definitely been helping mine, but then it depends on the guy you are dating. I've had townies who don't give anything...ever. Greg is the opposite. He's already dropped off a video game, a $4,000 vase, and the DJ booth. Needless to say, the house is plenty big now though I've been trying to spend a lot of the money on useless crappy looking decorative objects.

Time to start the constantly-pregnant dance. Blythe (it's Taylor, not Spirit) had twins for her first pregnancy.

[witch]

Probably because I called her a Blythe spirit in a previous post, very Anne of Green Gables.

[pbox]

I think you need to make a rule about selling gifts that are lefts on dates...

I would think this

14. [..] a sim may not receive an inheritance, or any money or gifts/inventory items, from off-lot sims

includes date gifts? Maybe it needs to be worded more clearly?

I may have taken things a little too literally from the rules as I gave her $100 only and the phone & table had to be purchased from that. Unfortunately I didn't get any jobs that started until Tuesday, which had me very very screwed.

I think that's how it's meant to be: 100§ to start with, not 100§ plus phone and stuff. Also, there is no job starting earlier than tuesday (not among the base game carreers at least) -- I've always assumed that that's intentional, so that your newly moved-in sim gets to meet the welcome wagon.


Oh and re. CC objects,

if I tried to sell them back for cash or something they actually sold back for more than I paid for them...dunno what is up with that.

that's because their price is messed up .. not all creators pay attention to that. Go by your own "no borrowing stuff" rule I'd say, then you don't need to care about it (plus it'll be more fun -- I've done the same thing and it does make the challenge a lot more realistic! Same goes for no selling date gifts, which I thought was a rule anyway).

ETA: I think I also remember seeing a tool somewhere that you can fix borken prices with, and also in-game ratings (comfortableness and such), and thinking "this looks so easy that even I could do it" .. I think it was the Categorizer on http://www.simwardrobe.com/ ? Never tried it myself, but it looks useful.


Something else I forgot (i KNOW I should stay off the internet before coffee #3  .. I'm just too fogheaded to remember that rule until after said coffee ), about the adoption / male founders thing:

Starting with a guy will *always* be a huge disadvantage, whatever you do about the adoptions -- by the time a male sim has scraped together the 3.000§ or whatever that he needs to adopt, a female can already have their 3rd kid in the oven -- plus she can have twins, but you can't adopt twins (or can you?). This is basically a challenge that can only be played with a female, straight sim. Or of course with the preg-for-all hack that eevilcat mentioned way upthreads (I wouldn't really see a need to rule out bi founders then -- there's no advantage in having kids with different partners or finding a particularly good mate or anything, is there? Finding someone, anyone, to carry off to the bedroom is really not that hard compared to the rest of the challenge ..)

[Zazazu]

I've never heard of twins being adopted, so I'm pretty sure that's out.

I got hit by the multiple-delivery bug, first time I've ever had it though I've heard of it quite a bit. Luckily it only repeated once. So she had twin toddlers already and then ended up having effectively twin babies. Four basically helpless kids at once is a bit much for one sim. Guess that's why they call them "challenges".

[skandelouslala]

Oh I somehow missed the no gifts from off lot sims or whatever even though I did read over the entire thread.

So what do you do with them?  I have simply left them there to keep my sims in poverty. 

[pbox]

So what do you do with them?  I have simply left them there to keep my sims in poverty.

I've kept them in their inventory .. I think that's what we were supposed to do in the Poverty Challenge as well.

[Ellatrue]

I actually thought I would allow selling date gifts for this challenge. I think it makes things more fun that way. Plus, from my experiments with the pregnant teen version, I'm not at all certain it's possible to not sell date rewards and still keep the baby.

In terms of banning gifts and inheritances, it's because I don't want people having their other controllable sims giving them a ton of stuff with the "give gift" interaction. A sim randomly dropping off a date reward is not something the player can control, so that's okay.

The reason dating rewards were banned for the Poverty Challenge is because I was trying to make the game fair for people without the nightlife expansion pack. However, for this challenge, I'm not even going to try anymore. There are too many EPs out by now, and it's not worth the trouble. If people want, they can just list their expansion packs and consider themselves to be competing in different categories.

Cheesecake is allowed.

As far as the hundred simoleans thing goes, yes, you DID read the rules correctly. After buying a table and a phone (or whatever), I think you should only have about 11 left.

I've decided I'm definitely doing the 2x1 lot thing. And I think you are right about banning adoption... I like the added element of craziness, but it could be unfair for people with slower computers. Besides, allowing cheesecake should help to increase the chaos.

I like the idea of the no borrowing stuff rules and the no cheap CC rules... on the other hand, I feel like if I start making rules about CC, and how people use stuff, things could get a little crazy.

What about a rule that you can't sell something back until it has depreciated at least once? That could discourage borrowing, but still allow players to have flexibility in how they manage their game.

[Zazazu]

What about a rule that you can't sell something back until it has depreciated at least once? That could discourage borrowing, but still allow players to have flexibility in how they manage their game.

That sounds fine. At the lower levels (when you would need to buy and sell back) that depreciation loss is tough. I had to manually direct a lot of handwashing just because I was $2 away from getting the cheapest shower and there was no way a mate was going to touch her while she was giving off stink.

As for date rewards, people who give a hoot about their relative scores should probably mention if they have Nightlife or not, since it potentially makes a big difference. Even once one guy is out of stuff, the sim can start dating another for rewards. But there's another thing about dates...they are a huge aspiration boost and randomly give clean points. A dream date can take even a non-pleasure sim from slightly in the red to platinum. So maybe one date a day limit? One date every two days?

If anyone cares, I'm keeping my story on the exchange updated as it plays through. I'm slow.

[kuronue]

What about one date per partner per day, or, better yet, per week? That way there's a benefit to having multiple partners - prostitution pays

[pbox]

I actually thought I would allow selling date gifts for this challenge.

Oh. Well, then .. one more reason to test/play this again =)

In terms of banning gifts and inheritances, it's because I don't want people having their other controllable sims giving them a ton of stuff with the "give gift" interaction.

Maybe you should expicitely write *playable* sims in that rule then (right now it says "off-lot sims"), to avoid misunderstandings -- perhaps throw it in with your other idea about ruling out extra cheap stores .. for example, "the challenge stays on the challenge lot: you can't have other playables give gifts to your sims (etc etc) or sell them stuff extra cheap", i believe then the point would be clearer.

If people want, they can just list their expansion packs and consider themselves to be competing in different categories

Sounds very reasonable; maybe you should also mention this in/below the rules (to avoid people complaining about the whole thing being unfair, I mean)

I like the idea of the no borrowing stuff rules and the no cheap CC rules... on the other hand, I feel like if I start making rules about CC, and how people use stuff, things could get a little crazy.

Perhaps, instead of yet another "forbidden" rule, give bonus points for not borrowing stuff? (This could work for other things too that are kind of optional, like adoption or dating) Too many or too strict or too easy rules may discourage people from playing -- a bonus would still point in the right direction, but is more flexible and open towards players with different levels of experience. You could also give bonus points for not selling the date gifts, or for getting the kids into private school, or for having every child with a different partner, or for reaching an LTW, or for having everyone sleep in one room, or for never going to a community lot ... that would also encourage trying different ways to play, without excluding people who think the rules are too hard or too easy or too difficult to remember.


ETA, as usual:

I've decided that servos are okay in this challenge

So does this mean we can use the benches and sell stuff? Or can we just *make* the servos?

[kuronue]

You pretty much have to sell stuff to badginate to get to making a servo, or you're paying far, far more than the simple cost of the servo in wasted practice materials