More realistic/difficult relationships?

[Farsight]

Lately I've been wondering if there's any way to make the social aspects of the Sims a bit more challenging, as well as make them have the slightest bit of realism to them. I mean, it seems odd that you can force anyone to love you just by constantly getting in their face and yammering at them. Or that nearly everyone is so darned friendly! So I guess I'm asking if anyone knows if any of the following are possible to mod in the game (or if a mod already exists)...

1) Making negative reactions in social interactions stronger / more likely. Currently the game's math is strongly skewed to make Sims move towards friendship even when they have little in common ("I hated you at first, but now that you've forced me to chat with you for hours, I love you!").

2) Making a pair of Sims' personality traits determine their min/max friendship levels. For example, if 2 Sims have nothing at all in common and have clashing personality traits, their maximum long-term relationship score might be 25 - even if they manage to have a conversation without hating each other, there's no basis for them to become lifelong pals/lovers. Finding someone who you hit it off with (best friend / lover) should be a big deal, even for a Sim!

3) Making crushes/love require higher relationship scores than friendship, to avoid the current situation that seems to be "Hey, we had a nice talk and you are the proper gender, so I love you!" Contrary to bad romantic comedies, men and women can be friends w/o wanting to jump each other.

4) Making a Sim's personality traits determine what relationship level is needed to Woohoo. Let's face it, some people are slutty. This could also expand to the other romantic options.

Basically, I'd just like socializing for my Sims to be a bit challenging, and to make finding them friends/romance more rewarding. Plus, they make my social skills look even worse than they are!

[Soylent Sim]

Challenging, no.  But Pes' romancemod and noinstantloves and TJ's ACR can allow you to fine-tune romantic interaction throughout your 'hood.  The former two cover for the fact that the romance engine in the game sucks as-is, and the latter is for those who like romance in the euphemistic sense rather than the hearts and flowers BS.

Sims who already have bad relationships are less likely to accept social interactions, although again as shipped the thresholds are rather low, and LTR already somewhat covers the case of "we had one great conversation and now we're bestest buds".  I'd be wary of a mod that capped LTR and/or STR on any personality criteria, however, as it would put someone else's perspective as to what gets along in a higher priority than my own storytelling urge.

[J. M. Pescado]

The factors determining whether sims left to themselves become friendly or not depends on a number of things, but nothing will really change your ability to force the issue by fiat if you're hellbent on doing it. One thing to note is that sim relationships invariably gravitate towards certain values: -100, 0, 100. There is basically no real way to avoid the fact that you will pretty much always move to one of those values. If you establish a positive or negative reaction and try to keep it, or let your sims do this, it will invariably move towards 100/100 or -100/-100. Otherwise, if you seperate them and don't let them interact, it will move to 0.

[Flamingo]

I don't know that this limit on relationships would be anymore lifelike. I've been friends with several people that I've had little to nothing in common with, and am still friends with one of them to this day.

Besides, think of the poor popularity Sims!

[Warge]

I like the suggestion as I'm a realism-freak. The thing is, people can be quite good neighbours even if they don't have anything in common. Let's take an example from life:

I just graduated from the career counseling education with a bachelor's degree which took three years. During this time, I was in a group with six other people which I had a lot of contact with, but not really anything in common with (a former artist, a former politician, a former house-wife, etc). I became 'friends' with them, but no amount of time would make me call them up now just to chat away some time with them, and I think the bonds are quickly dissolving as I type. My real friends however are friends even if we don't speak for months, simply because we have more in common. I can't see anything change from that. The mates from the education however, they seemed to have more in common and I think three of them are buddies from now on.

Taking it back to the sims, I would realy like to back the OP up on this. There should be a threshold on how good friends (or bad enemies) uo could be with others.

[Farsight]

I'd be wary of a mod that capped LTR and/or STR on any personality criteria, however, as it would put someone else's perspective as to what gets along in a higher priority than my own storytelling urge.

Well, that's when you would use the "off" option on such a mod...

The factors determining whether sims left to themselves become friendly or not depends on a number of things, but nothing will really change your ability to force the issue by fiat if you're hellbent on doing it. One thing to note is that sim relationships invariably gravitate towards certain values: -100, 0, 100. There is basically no real way to avoid the fact that you will pretty much always move to one of those values. If you establish a positive or negative reaction and try to keep it, or let your sims do this, it will invariably move towards 100/100 or -100/-100. Otherwise, if you seperate them and don't let them interact, it will move to 0.

The boring thing is how it's -extremely- likely that the numbers will go to 100. It would make the game infinitely more fun to actually -play- if some Sims just plain didn't like the Sim I was controlling.

Imagine you take your Sim to a night club... you have him check out the room, target a nice-looking lady, shimmy up to her, lay on the charm... and she spurns him. Currently, the normal reaction in the Sims is to just do it again... and again... because the numbers nearly always head to +100. I feel it would be far more interesting if that weren't the case, and that night at the club might be spent having the Sim try his luck with a handful of ladies before finally finding one that he connects with... or not, and wandering home alone.

(Did I just share too much about my Friday nights?)

Throw in the ability for initially positive relationships to max out well below true love, and you have short flings and failed relationships that don't require boinking the maid while your lover is asleep on the couch. If we can't just walk into a crowded room, pick someone at random to be our soulmate, then harass them until they acquiesce, why are those jerk Sims so lucky?

I'd love it if there were a version of the Sims that was actually fun and unteresting to -play- as a game (an RPG of sorts), rather than having my interaction with the world essentially feel like a cheat.

I've been friends with several people that I've had little to nothing in common with, and am still friends with one of them to this day.

I bet you didn't actually have -nothing- in common with them - I mean, you both dislike terrorists, right? Take a look at every skill stat, personality stat, aspiration and like/dislike in the Sims, and I'll bet you'd find something, even in that limited approximation of human personality.

Besides, think of the poor popularity Sims!

Part of the effect of changes like these would be making some aspects of the game harder... but currently most of those goals are so easy as to lack any challenge beyond your free time and attention span.

Taking it back to the sims, I would realy like to back the OP up on this. There should be a threshold on how good friends (or bad enemies) uo could be with others.

I just thought of how many of my childhood friends started out with a fight... but after that initial negative, we found we had a lot in common, and some of those guys are still my friends today. Conversely, I'm sure everyone has known people they had an instant connection with, only to find out as time went on that the initial positive didn't outweigh their differences.

The Sims is so heavily skewed towards a world where everyone is buddies that some of the most interesting social aspects are lost. Not to mention the loss of what could be challenging and rewarding gameplay. It also makes each Sim feel remarkably similar and interchangable. If my Sim is an out of shape and anti-social romance Sim, it doesn't really matter - he just needs to accost people an extra time or two before they fall madly in love with him. Even with an expert player controlling him, his life should be extremely hard. It would make him feel more like a unique little being, and would make helping him succeed feel like a true accomplishment.

[jolrei]

The romancemod is great for dealing with the stupid Maxian jealousy interactions.  I find it quite realistic that one or two of my romance Sim's lovers have become upset when he woohoos with a new lover, but others seem to take it in stride (provided that there is no formal relationship like steady/engaged/married).  I also find it interesting that these offended female sims take a lot more time to become friends again and will refuse interactions to improve the relationship in some cases, which is realistic.

I agree however, that normally any Sim my playables might meet are easily made friends and best friends with a little persistence.  What I have trouble with is negative reactions. 

For me, negative relationships are much harder to get than positive.  It seems that there are a limited number of negative interactions to do to other Sims (argue, annoy, prank).  It's difficult for me to make enemies in my game.  Perhaps I don't spend enough time arguing, or maybe my sims are not grouchy enough.  I don't think I have ever had more than one fight.  It would be more realistic to have sims who didn't all imediately like each other, or didn't want to be friends right after meeting another person.

I've seen the pop-up box that says "I just met this sim but I really want to get to know them better.  I think we could be friends." (or something like that).  Why not "I just met this sim and I think if I ever see him again I'll kick his ass."

[jsalemi]

I suggest also using JMP's 'enemiesaccumulate' mod -- that keeps negative relationships negative, instead of their natural progression towards buddies if your sim doesn't force the issue.

[Flamingo]

I bet you didn't actually have -nothing- in common with them - I mean, you both dislike terrorists, right? Take a look at every skill stat, personality stat, aspiration and like/dislike in the Sims, and I'll bet you'd find something, even in that limited approximation of human personality.

Part of the effect of changes like these would be making some aspects of the game harder... but currently most of those goals are so easy as to lack any challenge beyond your free time and attention span.

I suppose a harder game would be nicer, but I don't find popularity Sims to be having an easy time of making friends. Right now, they have to know basically everyone in the neighborhood to fulfill the twenty best friends want. Of course, my neighborhood is brand new anyway.

It would have to depend on what the terrorist was trying to do, but I get your point.

Similarities aren't the only thing to look at, though. People with similar personalities may hate each other. Similar interests are more liable to show you someone you'd get along with, and I would hope that the amount of skills a Sim has wouldn't affect their relationship that much.

[syberspunk]

I don't know that this limit on relationships would be anymore lifelike. I've been friends with several people that I've had little to nothing in common with, and am still friends with one of them to this day.

I've slept with several a few people that I've had little to nothing in common with.  Maybe even a couple that I've actually hated, or ended up hating. 


In general... I like the idea.  I just don't see it being feasible with the sims... unless someone (not me ) were willing to do something along the lines of the romancemod in size/scope that actually affected how general relationships worked.


Instead of having this friendship curve with min/max at -100,0, and +100, it would be neat if there were multiple potential min/max values dependent on multiple factors, such as personality, aspiration, mood, zodiac sign, gender pref, and interests - with maybe a bit randomness thrown in there since sometimes there are moments where a person can wear you down, or something happens that bumps you over that edge.


The problem would be, much like the rest of the game, is the is no real randomness and there is no real differences.  Everything is pretty much a bit to the sims.  An interaction is either On or Off, and there is no true 'artificial intellgience' as it were.  Sims are not intelligent because they cannot learn from past behaviour.  Sure they might remember an occurrence of something,  but those memories hardly ever influence any present or future behaviour.  Just because a sim remembered, obsessively mind you, that they burned pancakes the first time they tried to make it, it doesn't mean they won't burn pancakes again.  Just because they remember being shocked by trying to repair something, doesn't mean they won't sadorandomly choose that interaction yet again.

As Pescado has pointed out numerous times, the game just sadorandomly chooses the same interactions over and over, whatever happens to be the sim's latest obsession.  There really are no long lasting consequences that would significantly alter future behaviour.  This notion of "finding the best action" seems to be something that is hardcoded and isn't easily modifiable.  You might be able to improve things slightly with mods, such as romancemod, ACR, and dizzy's  process autonomy changes, but ultimately, you still end up with sadorandomly repetitive behaviour.  The thing about sims is... everything to them in game is an object.  Other sims are objects to them, and interactions are just things that they sadorandomly choose to attempt, just because the game tells them that interaction is available to them, and supposedly advertises to whatever motives they "think" it will satisfy (which, 9 times out of 10, it doesn't ).


Ste

[Flamingo]

I've slept with several a few people that I've had little to nothing in common with.  Maybe even a couple that I"ve actually hated, or ended up hating. 

I've had that happen before too. 

with maybe a bit randomness thrown in there since sometimes there are moments where a person can wear you down, or something happens that bumps you over that edge.

I have to say that people are typically pushed over the edge when things become a bit too much. I would think that it would relate more to aspiration, rather than just being completely random. There are some people that just rub you the wrong way for whatever reason, so I think that there should be some randomness, but just not when it has to do with rejection.

[syberspunk]

I've slept with several a few people that I've had little to nothing in common with.  Maybe even a couple that I"ve actually hated, or ended up hating. 

I've had that happen before too. 

You'll get no judgement from me. 

I just hate the fact that I either typed " or ' twice in there, so much that I had to go back and edit my post.

I have to say that people are typically pushed over the edge when things become a bit too much. I would think that it would relate more to aspiration, rather than just being completely random. There are some people that just rub you the wrong way for whatever reason, so I think that there should be some randomness, but just not when it has to do with rejection.

True.  I was thinking tho, for either way... as there are some people who tend to be pretty persistent, that you may not otherwise have considered in a certain way, but given the right circumstances, sometimes involving inebriation or intoxication by some other substance you might see someone in a whole different light.  Eh... heh.  Or you know, sometimes random things happen to fall into place, the stars and planets align, and you may end up doing something (or someone) that you otherwise might not have.  Sometimes it can be a good thing... sometimes it can be a bad thing. lol.


Ste

[J. M. Pescado]

It's interesting to note that the Life Stories games actually makes it HARDER to make friends, even without the artificial capping, because relationship change from time is disabled, meaning you can't simply "cook" LTR. Without relationship decay, the need to constantly call friends is absent, and there isn't the same pressure to drive relations straight to 100 or the ability to simply do nothing and gain 9 free LTR a day, making it MUCH MUCH HARDER to get it.

[elle.jae]

I agree that Sim relationships are too easy. My problem is more that you can get them maxed out really fast and then it just sits there - there's no change in STR/LTR unless you make one sim do something to upset another. I'd rather have more autonomous negative behavior, and make it continue even if two sims have a high relationship score.

Rather than type out the whole thing, I'll just post the link to the thread I started about it: http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php/topic,6633.0.html

[Farsight]

The problem would be, much like the rest of the game, is the is no real randomness and there is no real differences.

Actually, there is something quite close to true randomness, which is why there are no real differences.

A little less randomness and a little more reliance on the Sims' stats would provide real differences between Sims. The randomness not favoring everyone becoming buddies would add more differences.

A true learning AI will have to wait at least until The Sims3. But something that on the surface appears like a unique AI for each Sim would be a great improvement over the current extreme predictability.

It's interesting to note that the Life Stories games actually makes it HARDER to make friends, even without the artificial capping, because relationship change from time is disabled, meaning you can't simply "cook" LTR. Without relationship decay, the need to constantly call friends is absent, and there isn't the same pressure to drive relations straight to 100 or the ability to simply do nothing and gain 9 free LTR a day, making it MUCH MUCH HARDER to get it.

The Life Stories concept greatly appeals to me, as I like to play a single a single Sim as a roleplaying endeavor. I try to never play the other characters in my house, which does mean that my little Sim is a frequent widower, but what are ya gonna do?

The huge flaw in Life Stories is that the game are SO heavily scripted that the game is 99% on rails. A looser story with more choices and branches could retain the scripting aspect that makes the game different than The Sims, while giving the player some feeling of choice and control over the outcome of the story. But that's another topic...

I agree that Sim relationships are too easy. My problem is more that you can get them maxed out really fast and then it just sits there - there's no change in STR/LTR unless you make one sim do something to upset another. I'd rather have more autonomous negative behavior, and make it continue even if two sims have a high relationship score.

Rather than type out the whole thing, I'll just post the link to the thread I started about it: http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php/topic,6633.0.html

Yeah, there's a lot of overlap in our posts. With relationships that are more heavily affected by likes / traits / etc, you could easily have characters that are generally jerks, even occasionally to each other, but if they share a lot in common, would get to have lots of make-up-sex...

I'm a games programmer, but I haven't had time enough to delve into the Sims' modding abilities to know if the ideas are even feasable or not. Perhaps it's all just a pipe dream for the Sims3... then again, the Sims seems to not have much focus on having a 'game' as it does on letting (forcing?) you be the 'puppet master'. Sure, that's fun as well, but it would be great to occasionally not know if my little Sim is going to succeed or not, so maybe I'm waiting for another (mythical) game...

[Ennarys]

I agree that Sim relationships are too easy. My problem is more that you can get them maxed out really fast and then it just sits there - there's no change in STR/LTR unless you make one sim do something to upset another. I'd rather have more autonomous negative behavior, and make it continue even if two sims have a high relationship score.

Rather than type out the whole thing, I'll just post the link to the thread I started about it: http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php/topic,6633.0.html

I too would like for relationships to be more difficult to maintain. It is unrealistic to me that it takes more effort to damage a relationship that it does to maintain it. The romance of a marriage should fade if the couple doesn't make time in their busy lives to interact and work at keeping their love alive. Every marriage in my neighborhood is perfect by default, that just doesn't seem right. 

[J. M. Pescado]

I too would like for relationships to be more difficult to maintain. It is unrealistic to me that it takes more effort to damage a relationship that it does to maintain it. The romance of a marriage should fade if the couple doesn't make time in their busy lives to interact and work at keeping their love alive. Every marriage in my neighborhood is perfect by default, that just doesn't seem right.

The paradox of maintenance is that more maintenance will actually make it EASIER to keep. If there is no "maintenance", you're not obligated to do anything, so any state becomes a potentially stable state. More maintenance would simply force this tiresome chore on you. It's the same reason why in Life Stories, a relationship can be allowed to simply "slide" at 60, but in the Real Thing, everything goes to 100/100 because you're forced to maintain it. Maintenance turns things into all or nothing.

[Ennarys]

I too would like for relationships to be more difficult to maintain. It is unrealistic to me that it takes more effort to damage a relationship that it does to maintain it. The romance of a marriage should fade if the couple doesn't make time in their busy lives to interact and work at keeping their love alive. Every marriage in my neighborhood is perfect by default, that just doesn't seem right.

The paradox of maintenance is that more maintenance will actually make it EASIER to keep. If there is no "maintenance", you're not obligated to do anything, so any state becomes a potentially stable state. More maintenance would simply force this tiresome chore on you. It's the same reason why in Life Stories, a relationship can be allowed to simply "slide" at 60, but in the Real Thing, everything goes to 100/100 because you're forced to maintain it. Maintenance turns things into all or nothing.

O.k. i think I get it...no I don't, but I trust you.

[J. M. Pescado]

Basically, there are two outcomes to relationship decay:

1. Players do not maintain them, and all relationships thus collapse.
2. Players DO maintain them, and naturally, overcompensate in an attempt to reduce the amount of maintenance, or simply because maintaining at a very specific level is more work than simply letting it go to 100. Relationships now never collapse because of overcompensation in maintenance.

It is believed that "enemies accumulate" currently maintains a satisfactory balance between these two extremes.

[Farsight]

Basically, there are two outcomes to relationship decay:

1. Players do not maintain them, and all relationships thus collapse.
2. Players DO maintain them, and naturally, overcompensate in an attempt to reduce the amount of maintenance, or simply because maintaining at a very specific level is more work than simply letting it go to 100. Relationships now never collapse because of overcompensation in maintenance.

It is believed that "enemies accumulate" currently maintains a satisfactory balance between these two extremes.

But, if Sims' personalities affected their max LTR with other Sims, AND made interactions less positive / more volatile, the result would be that chemistry and compatiblity would be more important, making any relationship successful would be more rewarding, and making 'incompatible' Sims a successful couple (or friends even) would be an actual challenge.

In that situation, two Sims with similar interests and personalities would have a max LTR of 100, and would be more likely to have positive interactions, so could probably remain at or near 100 with nothing more than conversation over a meal now and then.

Conversely, somewhat compatible Sims might have a max LTR of 80, and would have a few more negative interactions, making it necesarry to set aside some "couples time" if you want them to stay on good terms.

Somewhat incompatible Sims might have a max LTR of 60, making their relationship a real struggle, and very volatile / prone to fights + making up, etc...

Very incompatible Sims might have a max LTR of 20, making it impossible for them to get along beyond the short-term, and making them very likely to become enemies at the drop of a hat.

Seeing that kind of wide array of personalities and interactions in the game would make it infinitely more engaging to me, and greatly reduce the feeling that beyond their appearance nothing about a Sim really matters. If a player chooses a friend/mate for their Sim that is incompatible, the increased maintenance required to keep the relationship going becomes a balancing factor (maintenance might be the wrong word as well, since their social interactions wouldn't reliably push their STR/LTR upwards any longer - them interacting could just lead to a fight) - you might even choose to have your Sim cheat on their spouse because another Sim is easier to get a long with... the social/relationship system in the game would have far more depth.

Out of curiosity, are the following possible to mod currently w/ what is known about BHAVs, etc?

1) Capping a Sims' LTR with another Sim (I know Life Stories does this for 'your' Sim)

2) Changing how a positive/negative social interaction is calculated (like if a Chat is successful or fails)

3) Changing the calculation for how many points a social interaction gives (like a positive Chat giving +5 STR)

[J. M. Pescado]

In theory, all of the above could be changed, but only very messily, and on a less than logically determinable basis. Also, sims don't know when to stop, so the nature of "best action" will either cause them to ALWAYS pick that action, or to NEVER pick that action, so if you make a relationship-destroying interaction available autonomously, it will either be chosen CONSTANTLY, or not at all, if sim are left to themselves.

[Magicmoon]

It is believed that "enemies accumulate" currently maintains a satisfactory balance between these two extremes.

The readme for enemies accumulate is a little confusing as it appears to talk more about the fight club than the status of enemies. I understood the part about the enemies stay enemies instead of 'wearing off' if you don't continue to interact with them, but I need to know if a former enemy is 'recoverable' with the mod in place.

I had a married couple where the wife caught the husband cheating more than once and they became enemies. I tried to get them to at least not hate each other for the children's sake. First I let the furiousness wear off, then I attempted to have them interact in non-threatening ways. But I never could get the enemy icon removed and they would soon be fighting again. Is that because of the enemies accumulate mod or because I just didn't know how to work on their relationship properly?

[J. M. Pescado]

You can stop being enemies if you try hard enough, but it won't automagically happen if you do nothing. In fact, until you've done so, things will likely get worse, especially if they are not nice sims, as mean sims hold grudges instead of forgiving.

[Farsight]

In theory, all of the above could be changed

Nice!

but only very messily

Not nice!

Also, sims don't know when to stop, so the nature of "best action" will either cause them to ALWAYS pick that action, or to NEVER pick that action, so if you make a relationship-destroying interaction available autonomously, it will either be chosen CONSTANTLY, or not at all, if sim are left to themselves.

I wasn't actually thinking of adding any interactions, or changing the logic that determines which action gets picked.

I was trying to keep things (relatively) simple, by limiting changes to the logic that determines the results of the action.

For example, a Sim would still decide when to try to Chat with another Sim in the same way. What would change is the logic that decides if the chat "succeeds" or not, and/or the +/- point changes on success/failure.

So the Sim wouldn't be doing anything smarter/dumber than they currently do, the result would just be less likely to push their relationship to 100, and take into greater account the two Sims' personalities.

Such a mod might make Decay work better as well... two incompatible Sims might forget they hate each other, but if their conflicting personalities make interactions have a 90% chance of failure, they'll remember soon enough.

If that were combined with their personalities also determining their min/max LTR, you would no longer see all relationships going to -100/-100 or 100/100, and each relationship would feel unique.

[J. M. Pescado]

For example, a Sim would still decide when to try to Chat with another Sim in the same way. What would change is the logic that decides if the chat "succeeds" or not, and/or the +/- point changes on success/failure.

The logic of whether or not a chat "succeeds" or "fails" is determined purely by the randomly chosen conversational topic, and relationship has no influence at all. Indeed, it is not certain the code even knows who the sim is talking to. Research into making topic selection more intelligent has been looked into for awhile. Personality has basically no influence on this. However, I *HAVE* had positive results with getting sims to sit in sullen silence instead of opening their yaps to any random stranger they see, when outside of the direct "chat" action, so they don't attempt to initiate forced-friendship at all.

So the Sim wouldn't be doing anything smarter/dumber than they currently do, the result would just be less likely to push their relationship to 100, and take into greater account the two Sims' personalities.

Once positive tone is established, chat tends to play little to no real role. Unless your sim is "Fingers in Ears" Lythdan, anyway. Lythdan manages to piss everyone off, because she picks the topic she hates least to initiate the conversation, then when the other sim responds with the same topic, thinking it to be a topic of conversation, Lythdan goes FINGERS IN EARS!

If that were combined with their personalities also determining their min/max LTR, you would no longer see all relationships going to -100/-100 or 100/100, and each relationship would feel unique.

And how exactly do you propose that be determined? How friendships work even in HUMANS is hardly a scientifically determinable phenomenon! Where would these caps be? How would they be determined? All of this is highly unanswerable.