Morality & The Sims

[sanmonroe]

Anyone find it ironic that in a rant about a possible racist post the ranter asks about Orientals?

We are asian. Things can be oriental, people cannot.

[simmiecal]

Maximus March is the oldest son, natural born therefore African American.  He's an adult now, quite successful in Science, and married to a beautiful CAS with one child of his own.  As a knowledge Sim, he'd never been about appearance...he wore polo shirts and pants, had close cropped hair and a very earnest expression. 

When he became so successful, I gave him a makeover.  He has nice cornrow hair, sharp sunglasses and a tan leather jacket outfit.  He looks like a successful black man, not a successful black man dressed like a typical white man, if you know what I mean.  The makeover matched his level of personal confidence, I thought.

If you're Black, and making the above comments, then you're forgiven for what I would otherwise consider one of the most condescending racist comments I've seen in a long time. Because if you're Black and that's what you consider the epitome of what a successful Black person should wear, more power to you.

When I first read the posting you quoted, I had a slight reaction similiar to yours. HOWEVER, in the rest of the post, Windy_Moon talked about this being a way to open a dialogue about race perceptions and how stereotypes are not always true. I think you did a disservice by focusing on only part of the post.

I am not a perfect person. While I strive to live my life in a color-blind, religious-blind, etc., tolerant way, I realize that there are times when I am racist and/or prejudicial without intending to be. What is important is that I strive to improve. I believe what is important in Windy_Moon's post is that he/she strives to pass along values of not judging people by their appearance....even if he/she sometimes falls short of that goal.

You can choose to attack someone or try to open a dialogue with them. I don't think people's beliefs and attitudes change when they are being attacked.

[windy_moon]

Oh Dear. Oh Dear. Oh Dear!
 

I was composing a response and then I see more responses and I'm afraid that I've made a big message board 101 mistake.  Never mention race.  You can mention anything but race.  I've been message boarding long enough to know this.  It's nearly impossible to either not be misunderstood OR to say something that truly is insensitive, even if you don't realize it when you are posting.

I don't know what I was thinking, touching on something so sensitive.  I would really love to edit my original post, but I don't want to make subsequent posts look like they are talking to air, either, that's not fair.  I guess I'll see what kind of turn the thread takes (which isn't looking good )

Anyway, here was my original response:

-----------------------

You don't know me from Adam, but I can promise you there was no ill intent behind my words.  I think my words were mostly just badly chosen and don't reflect who I am, how I think, or even how I play my Sims game.   

As much as I don't like controversy, I do appreciate your input.  There's a great deal of variety in my Sim neighborhood and not a single style of dress for anybody, certainly not according to skin color.  Romance Sims do get stuck in sluttier outfits than the rest of the ‘hood, but that's about it. 

----------------------

Apologies...and a bit of mortification.  I'm not the sort who stirs the pot!

[Jarsie]

Anyone find it ironic that in a rant about a possible racist post the ranter asks about Orientals?

We are asian. Things can be oriental, people cannot.

My bad sanmonroe. I stand corrected on that point. But I still stand by the rest of my rant. It's stereotypical to decide what a successful person of any race should look like based on what they're wearing.

[Jarsie]

When I first read the posting you quoted, I had a slight reaction similiar to yours. HOWEVER, in the rest of the post, Windy_Moon talked about this being a way to open a dialogue about race perceptions and how stereotypes are not always true. I think you did a disservice by focusing on only part of the post.

I am not a perfect person. While I strive to live my life in a color-blind, religious-blind, etc., tolerant way, I realize that there are times when I am racist and/or prejudicial without intending to be. What is important is that I strive to improve. I believe what is important in Windy_Moon's post is that he/she strives to pass along values of not judging people by their appearance....even if he/she sometimes falls short of that goal.

You can choose to attack someone or try to open a dialogue with them. I don't think people's beliefs and attitudes change when they are being attacked.

Yet, she chose to use a stereotype to illustrate what she thought a successful Black man should wear, which is why I jumped on that post. The rest of it doesn't negate the fact that the poster also operates in a stereotypical fashion.

[nothingbutsims]

Wendy, I read your post and didn't think anything of it.  What I was shocked by was the response you got by Momthing.  People post all kinds of stuff on this forum.  My personal opinion - if you don't like what you've just read, certainly don't attack the writer.  If they have offended you in some way, there's a 99% chance they didn't even realize they did it ... and what does it matter anyway?  This forum is about the Sims not about so-and-so posted something and it has offended me so I need to let them know how I feel.  You're just wasting JM's bandwith.

[simmiecal]

Yet, she chose to use a stereotype to illustrate what she thought a successful Black man should wear, which is why I jumped on that post. The rest of it doesn't negate the fact that the poster also operates in a stereotypical fashion.

And the point I was trying to make is that sometimes people don't realize their own prejudice. You can point out an inconsistency and make the person think about their own beliefs without jumping on them. I think people are more open to honest examination of their beliefs and attitudes when they are not being jumped on for being racist...especially if they didn't intend offense.

[Jarsie]

Wendy, I read your post and didn't think anything of it.  What I was shocked by was the response you got by Momthing.  People post all kinds of stuff on this forum.  My personal opinion - if you don't like what you've just read, certainly don't attack the writer.  If they have offended you in some way, there's a 99% chance they didn't even realize they did it ... and what does it matter anyway?  This forum is about the Sims not about so-and-so posted something and it has offended me so I need to let them know how I feel.  You're just wasting JM's bandwith.

So now, typing in an honest reaction to a point someone made is wasting JM's bandwidth?

Gee, pardon me, I didn't know I was on the politcally correct The Sims 2 BBS. Pardon me while I slink away with my tail tucked between my legs.

[Jarsie]

And the point I was trying to make is that sometimes people don't realize their own prejudice. You can point out an inconsistency and make the person think about their own beliefs without jumping on them. I think people are more open to honest examination of their beliefs and attitudes when they are not being jumped on for being racist...especially if they didn't intend offense.

Okay. I concede that I overreacted. Would it make all of you feel more comfortable if I said nothing instead and let it ride?

Granted, I could have expressed my opinion in a milder tone...but it's done now, and I stand by what I said.

[simmiecal]

And the point I was trying to make is that sometimes people don't realize their own prejudice. You can point out an inconsistency and make the person think about their own beliefs without jumping on them. I think people are more open to honest examination of their beliefs and attitudes when they are not being jumped on for being racist...especially if they didn't intend offense.

Okay. I concede that I overreacted. Would it make all of you feel more comfortable if I said nothing instead and let it ride?

Granted, I could have expressed my opinion in a milder tone...but it's done now, and I stand by what I said.

I think tone is everything - and is what is so easily misunderstood on a message board. I think there is value is honest discussion of these issues and I believe more problems result when people don't speak up. But what I think is important is to also look at intent. I think from reading the original post, there was no intent to offend. Offering another perspective as to why the post may be offensive is important, especially if one does strive to be color blind.

There have been many phrases and expressions that I have used in the past because they were things I heard around me. It was not until someone - in a non-threatening way - brought to my attention how what I was saying was being perceived by others. Even though I meant no offense, I was still mortified when I learned how my comments were being "heard" by others. Had the person speaking to me "jumped" on me for being racist, I'm sure I just would have been defensive instead of learning another point of view.

[windy_moon]

And the point I was trying to make is that sometimes people don't realize their own prejudice. You can point out an inconsistency and make the person think about their own beliefs without jumping on them. I think people are more open to honest examination of their beliefs and attitudes when they are not being jumped on for being racist...especially if they didn't intend offense.

Okay. I concede that I overreacted. Would it make all of you feel more comfortable if I said nothing instead and let it ride?

Granted, I could have expressed my opinion in a milder tone...but it's done now, and I stand by what I said.

Momthing, I'm of two minds here.  Part of me really wants to have this conversation because I did choose my words badly, and the urge to clarify my mindset is quite strong.  

On the other hand, I'm hesitant because I can see myself typing up a term paper length clarification which could unfairly dominate conversation on a board where people really just want to talk about the Sims.

I did not mean to offend and won't make the mistake of chattering idly about what could be sensitive subjects again.

[nothingbutsims]

Okay. I concede that I overreacted. Would it make all of you feel more comfortable if I said nothing instead and let it ride?

Absolutely.  This is not the place to be making your feelings known about racial discretion.  This is a Sims forum.  You want to air your differences with people about racism, I'm sure you can find a forum or chat room that specializes in that topic.  Call me a bitch if you want, I don't care in the least, but I had a crappy meeting with my therapist today so I'm not in a pleasant mood right now.  End of discussion.

[reggikko]

That's not the way my profs saw it. They saw it as beating the White man at his own game.

And that's not stereotyping, I suppose?

[Kristalrose]

I grew up in a small town in Southern OH.  Everyone looked like me.  There was no "cultural diversity".  So, I grew up thinking that I should respect everyone and treat everyone according to the way I was treated, no matter what race or culture they came from. 

It served me pretty well until I moved to NC.  I live in an area where African-Americans are the majority.  My ignorance from time to time gets me into trouble.  I mean no harm, have no bias behind it, but I open my mouth and insert foot.  Luckilly, I have made some pretty good friends of both races, and they are able to laugh at me and say, "Hey, hillbilly, it's not okay to say _____." 

Today two of my friends got into it.  We had visited an Elementary School to do a book distribution.  When we got in the car to leave, we were discussing how sweet the kids were, how cute the little girls looked in thier uniforms, etc.  My white friend piped up and said that it fascinates her how mothers get their African-American daughters to sit still long enough to do those intricate braids in their hair.  My African-American friend became angry, and said that it is because of racism and living in a white society that those little girls have to submit to that, because white people cannot deal with natural hair.  My white friend was then a little offended, because she had not meant the comment hatefully, she was complimenting the good behavior and beautiful hairstyles.  And ignorant my, I didn't know that was why the little girls wore their hair like that:  I just thought it was a cute hairstyle!  Needless to say, it was a quiet trip home.   

[sanmonroe]

Are the conversations anything like this

http://www.goyk.com/video.asp?path=1959

?

Its easy to mix up things from other cultures.

[nothingbutsims]

OMG!!  Sanmonroe, you've got more balls than my husband!

[Azkar]

http://www.goyk.com/video.asp?path=1959

[reggikko]

Are the conversations anything like this

http://www.goyk.com/video.asp?path=1959

Ok, I'm almost done laughing my ass off. Perfect.

[BeckerCheez]

At one time, Remington the maid had fallen in love with Don the maid, so they were joined.

Well, shoot, anyone can tell that Remington is gay.

 - Gus

Not the Remington in my game.  He's married to a woman and is having an affair with another.   

[Jarsie]

Well, folks, it's been real. Now I know why I stay away from these kinds of discussions.

I'm going back to RetardoLand.

Y'all have a nice day.

Oh, and NothingButSims...kiss my brown ass.