Is it Just Me, or is this Community Stingy About Sharing?

[jfade]

I was thinking about this a lot yesterday and have started thinking about it again today, and I'm wondering if this is just me thinking stupid thoughts or if this is true in general...

What I was pondering about was the seeming lack, or at least what I perceive as a lack, of tutorials and technical information that is freely shared and available in the community. Now I know there are some tutorials out there and there are some really great ones in various places, but there just seems to be a big lack of tutorials that go beyond the basics and into more detailed information and specific techniques.

For example, there are some basic modding (IE BHAV editing and the like), tutorials out there, but there don't seem to be any that go much deeper. In another example, I know there are some more advanced object creation tutorials out there, but some of these are very outdated or no longer correct/needed due to a new technique that was discovered.

But it's not like the techniques are simply not KNOWN, you can see certain creators using them all the time. Yet it just seems like no one wants to write tutorials explaining how these things work or at the very least write a brief thing that will lead people on the right track to get them to be able to use the same method. You may think "well can't you just open their file and see what they did?" That is partially true, but it may not always be apparent, and people, especially aspiring creators, shouldn't have to go digging around in other people's files to see what they did.

On top of that, there seems to also be a shortage of technical info. For example, the formats of the various resources sometimes change with new expansions, or have new things added, and ever since the original formats were figured out, it doesn't seem like the new formats have been explained anywhere. Of course, I could be wrong on that and may just be looking in the wrong places, but it seems like this is happening to me. However, I feel that if more programs and tools are going to be written, this info needs to be publicly available, not buried somewhere or hidden in a location that only certain people can get to.

Now I'm not saying there's a complete lack of info, but it seems to be so scattered and so sparse that it's difficult to track things down. This is not community friendly. If the community's creativity and ingenuity is to continue to grow, there needs to be a movement to make things happen from all creators. But what I want to know is this: Am I alone in feeling this way? Does anyone else think there needs to be a more open exchange of information? And if there is to be a more open exchange in a centrally located place, WHERE should it be done? At an existing site or at a totally new one? Or should we just try to repost everything in multiple places?

Of course, regardless of what you all say, I do intend to make an effort myself to make more tutorials and share what I know, but I want to know what you all think as far as how I (and I hope others) should go about it?

Thanks for any input you can give.

[Ambular]

You are absolutely not alone.  You should have seen what I had to go through to track down all the necessary information to make a working custom career, and that seems to be one of the more well-documented forms of mods.  (It struck me as terribly ironic that for a while, whenever someone reported a problem with their game, one of the first answers I'd see was usually "You've probably got a bad custom career, they tend to be buggy."  Well, duh.  Trying to follow two different outdated tutorials and guess at what's changed in SimPE since they were written will do that.)

But yeah, it's the same with a lot of things.  Figuring out the basics of Material Definitions has required me to track down several different MTS2 threads and some from here, and there are some truly useful bits of information--like the fact that you can cut down the file size of many CC items, in some cases dramatically, by compressing the contents--that are perhaps common knowledge in some modding circles, but nobody seems to have gone out of their way to call attention to them.  All too often I'll see someone post a query along the lines of "Where can I learn to do this or do that?" and someone else will post back, "Well, there's no single place you can go to learn that, you have to figure it out by trial and error or get advice from someone else who knows."

God knows how many talented people have been put off the idea of modding altogether because they couldn't figure out how to get started.  Heck, I've been mucking around with it for well over a year now, and there are a bunch of things I'd still like to learn about meshing and BHAV's and so on, but where do I find some real beginner's information?

Personally I'd love to see a centralized archive of some form, maybe in a wiki format. But I don't know how much cooperation you're going to see community-wide, between the drama queens who don't get along with anyone and the "I'm-too-busy-creating-incredible-stuff-to-answer-your-pitiful-questions" crowd...

[syberspunk]

I wouldn't necessarily say that we (not that I should even assume I can speak for teh community) are stingy per se... but rather I think we (just my assumption) are lazy.

I've found that, at least in my personal experience (or maybe I have just been very fortunate) that pretty much, everyone I asked for help has always been more than willing to share their knowledge and/or expertise with me. Including and especially, ye Olde Fat Obstreperous Jerkiness himself. Of course, you pretty much have to kinda sorta demonstrate some level of experience, and at least be as tall as his beefy arm, or what not. But even still, most everyone that I've encountered has been more than willing to share what they know.

You just gotta start off by reading up on the basics. It really isn't all that hard, and you don't even really have to be a "real programmer" to make mods for the sims (as far as I'm concerned ). I think most people are willing to help others who help themselves. Who actually demonstrate that they are making in the very least, some modicum of effort towards learning something for themselves, rather than just being a leech and bitching and complaining and wanting to have stuff handed to them easily and cleanly on a platter (*cough*cough* present company excluded i.e. me, 'natch hehe, I'm such a brat). For the most part, I've seem many peeps be extremely helpful, even more than they really should (in my not so humble opinion), answering even some of the basic questions that could have been easily read in a tutorial or what not.

It's kind of funny how "programmers" tend to be. I find that many of us tend to be more into the "doing" and somewhat into the "helping" but not very much into the documenting. Documenting tends to be for chumps. Who needs to document or use comments? If you wrote the code, you better damn well be able to know how to read it. And if you used very obscure, totally abstract, non descriptive function and variable names... well then, you only have yourself to blame.

Yeah... but seriously... documenting/commenting has to be the least fun (or at least in my case, least fun and/or least favorite activitiy) when it comes to coding. Wiki's are kind of neat tho, in that they allow you to be a tad more descriptive and creative when it comes to writing descriptions (that is, if the wikimaster isn't a wikinazi ).

Anyhew... I just thought I'd reply cuz. I dunno if I would actually contribute. I kinda, sorta would like to, but I'm not all that confident in my writing ability and/or sardonic wit to go with it. Just to demonstrate my laziness, I'll admit that I didn't even bother fully reading your entire post before I decided to launch off into my semi ranty, or at least super rambley, aimless tirade.

Ste

ETA: far too many stupid smilies, plus, i swear i will go back and read your post in its entirety... well... eventully... heh.

[J. M. Pescado]

But it's not like the techniques are simply not KNOWN, you can see certain creators using them all the time. Yet it just seems like no one wants to write tutorials explaining how these things work or at the very least write a brief thing that will lead people on the right track to get them to be able to use the same method. You may think "well can't you just open their file and see what they did?" That is partially true, but it may not always be apparent, and people, especially aspiring creators, shouldn't have to go digging around in other people's files to see what they did.

Part of the problem is the explosion of MTS2. In the beginning, MTS2 was more modding-centric and such techniques were discussed more frequently. When MTS2 became overrun by people who weren't pushing the frontiers of creation, most of the pioneers headed elsewhere. As MTS2 was no longer really a suitable environment to discuss technical issues without being swamped in clueless people trying to enter above their area of understanding, these discussions stopped happening.

On top of that, there seems to also be a shortage of technical info. For example, the formats of the various resources sometimes change with new expansions, or have new things added, and ever since the original formats were figured out, it doesn't seem like the new formats have been explained anywhere. Of course, I could be wrong on that and may just be looking in the wrong places, but it seems like this is happening to me. However, I feel that if more programs and tools are going to be written, this info needs to be publicly available, not buried somewhere or hidden in a location that only certain people can get to.

Well, for the most part, very few people take an interest in file formats. Those few remaining people have either scattered to the winds, or have some vested interest in keeping SimPE as a monopoly on editing. Nobody has seriously expressed an interest in breaking the back of that monopoly before now. The other part of the issue is that when some technical bit of info is discovered, it's not readily apparent if anyone actually cares. In the absence of any apparent desire to use this info, the people in question thus don't bother to write it down anywhere or tell anyone unless someone asks.

Now I'm not saying there's a complete lack of info, but it seems to be so scattered and so sparse that it's difficult to track things down. This is not community friendly. If the community's creativity and ingenuity is to continue to grow, there needs to be a movement to make things happen from all creators. But what I want to know is this: Am I alone in feeling this way? Does anyone else think there needs to be a more open exchange of information? And if there is to be a more open exchange in a centrally located place, WHERE should it be done? At an existing site or at a totally new one? Or should we just try to repost everything in multiple places?

There *SHOULD* be more exchange of information, but the problem is, there's no singular way to achieve this. Every attempt to do so tends to become enmired in politics, especially when the people who tend to start such efforts are not the people who actually have any real interest in the pursuing the matter. MTS2 is an example of this: Delphy doesn't do anything with the game itself, and it is unclear what his motives are in doing this at all.

It's kind of funny how "programmers" tend to be. I find that many of us tend to be more into the "doing" and somewhat into the "helping" but not very much into the documenting. Documenting tends to be for chumps. Who needs to document or use comments? If you wrote the code, you better damn well be able to know how to read it. And if you used very obscure, totally abstract, non descriptive function and variable names... well then, you only have yourself to blame.

Of course! A TRUE Klingon warrior does not comment his code! Also, programmers that stop to document things typically forget what they were doing. Half the time we don't even know what we're doing at all, and it's hard to write something when you're not sure it actually WORKS. By the time you finish, it's now a chunk of code where you can no longer remember how you got there in the first place, so you just use it by cutting and pasting.

Programmers also prefer answering directed questions over "How do I do some amazingly vague, general task" questions. Part of this is part of the programmer thought process: Programmers, accustomed to speaking to computers, think in small incremental steps. If you ask a programmer about some large, general task, you will get a blank stare. Ask a programmer how to plant a tree, not how to create a forest. Ask where the wrench is, not how to change the tire.

[Paperbladder]

Well we could try to make a MATY wiki again but have it tend to revolve around Modding than Retardo Land stuff.  However, I know Pescado's against this due to the fact that there are wikis out there for Sims that don't even.  The Sims 2 Wiki at Wikka barely has anything on it, thanks to the fact that no one can make new articles.

I'm certain there's some partnership with MTS2 and SimPE about not disclosing DBPF package info.  It's sort of suspicious that there's no data about it out there (Supposedly there's a Mac viewer for it) and any data that was given on making a tool like SimPE was destroyed by MTS2.  Speaking of formats, how is Lua related to Sims?  Is it the sourcecode for the package format or something?

Hell, there's problems even compiling SimPE with Visual C#.  Open my foot.  I think it's hilarious that Quaxi's making such a big deal of the code switching to .NET 2.0 and saying it's the next big thing when .NET 3.0 is the actual next version.

[J. M. Pescado]

Currently, I'd say Dizzy and Ingelogical are probably the resident experts on .package formatting. There may or may not be an intentional conspiracy to suppress the information (programmers are not known to be the most randomly forthcoming), but the apparent obfuscation surrounding every aspect of SimPE is difficult to crack. Even apparently *GETTING* the source is severely obfuscated.

[Paperbladder]

Isn't the localization package the source?  Anyway, the problem with the localization package/source is the fact that you need to use a Microsoftian product to compile it and it doesn't run unless you mess with it.  There's no way to get the old interface back easily anyway, for some reason Windows Forms likes to make everything huge.

[ChamiMinds]

You are absolutely not alone.  You should have seen what I had to go through to track down all the necessary information to make a working custom career, and that seems to be one of the more well-documented forms of mods. 

Now since I haven't looked since Petz came out but when I last looked on how to do a career all I got were "this tut is no longer helpful due to the new SimPE & it's not going to be updated" ect ect. Maybe you'd be willing to help me out cause I still want to do it! hehe.

But on the whole, yes I agree it is hard to track down the needed information. It seems to be to scattered, it wasn't until recently that I fully figured out how to do the simple simple (I only say simple now cause I finally got it) re-coloring of objects. Damn that was hell to follow old tuts that didn't match the new SimPE. But I did it and I was damn happy to figure it out finally. Following two or three old tuts. I also managed not to ask any questions along the way! I'd now be willing to write a tut for it that goes along with the new SimPE. But where would I put it? I like the idea of a wiki thing, or maybe there could be a new forum only for tuts and such.

The thing about all of this is like others have stated some want it handed to them without having to read it fully. Or as Pescado said to many people come into topics they don't even know the basics about and clog up the post with questions not really related making the discussions dwindle to nothing. I personally love reading those discussions about programming or coding, even though I am usually lost the whole time, because I occasionally pick up a tid bit here and there but never add in anything. Although I am one of those who would rather try to figure it out myself given a real starting point, or at least a decent recent tut that actually explains the version of programs I have to use. Where as a lot of people are not like that and just ask and ask instead of trying to re-read or whatever!

Once I figure something out I am more than willing to try and write it out for others to try to learn from so I would actually be interested in helping the cause. However I fear that with new EP's and new versions of SimPE coming out people might lose interest in keeping up to date. And I also fear that since I do not understand SimPE that well I might not be able to update with it but I'd certainly try!

Oh and Pescado I have read on your "SimPE must be destroyed" thread and LOVE the idea of seperate programs(?) for seperate aspects of it. Such as a gameplay altercation, a re-coloring one, ect ect. Because there is a lot in there I will never want to touch or even look at so I'd like it if I could focus on just one section kind of like Bodyshop in a way.

[miros]

<snip>I'm certain there's some partnership with MTS2 and SimPE about not disclosing DBPF package info.  It's sort of suspicious that there's no data about it out there (Supposedly there's a Mac viewer for it) and any data that was given on making a tool like SimPE was destroyed by MTS2.  Speaking of formats, how is Lua related to Sims?  Is it the sourcecode for the package format or something?

Mac viewer: http://homepage.mac.com/petergould/DBPF/index.html

By format info, do you mean a) how to split a package file into resources or b) what each resource does?  I know I've found the information for a) in the past, including how to decompress compressed resources.

I think what JMP meant by "fits on a floppy" is that the end users should be able to download a program that "weighs" less than 1.44 meg and just runs.  You shouldn't have to download a ton of other stuff to get it to work.  The size of the compiler is the developer's problem. 

BTW, there's a lot of stuff on the MTS2 wiki.  Don't know what you were looking at but here is stuff that I found useful:
DBPF format in general: http://216.32.95.40/wiki/DBPF
String tables: http://216.32.95.40/wiki/STR
Packages (including compression): http://216.32.95.40/wiki/Packages
File format codes: http://216.32.95.40/wiki/InternalFormats

[Ambular]

Now since I haven't looked since Petz came out but when I last looked on how to do a career all I got were "this tut is no longer helpful due to the new SimPE & it's not going to be updated" ect ect. Maybe you'd be willing to help me out cause I still want to do it! hehe.

I haven't tried to work on careers in a while, so that may very well be.  Wonder why it's not to be updated.   Was that the tutorial using Bidou's Career Editor or the one for doing it the hard way?

Anyway, I agree with pretty much everything you said...nothing's more annoying than tearing your hair out trying to figure out a basic procedure that you know should be simplicity itself, and then realize that it is, once you know what you're doing, but you couldn't have acquired that information any way except trial and error.  It's wonderful that many of the people in the know are willing to help out--several of them have been very kind to me, and I'm certainly grateful--but who wants to have to tug at a more experienced modder's sleeve every single time they need to figure something out?  Especially when there are some (not the majority, but some) who clearly can't abide being pestered, and as often as not the guy whose signature contains a list of ways not to try to contact him is the acknowledged expert on what you're trying to do... *Sighs*

Anyway, whinging aside, it'd help if people would at least remove hopelessly outdated tutorials to cut down on confusion.  Or if some of the less arcane functions of SimPE (heh, and the more arcane ones, which would make Pes happy) were spun off into standalone programs that wouldn't change their interface every time they updated.  I can't imagine there's any overriding technical reason why some of the spiffy plugin functions couldn't be made to work separately if their creators wanted to go that route.  I know some people are already considering or working on such projects, and God bless and best of luck to 'em.

[rohina]

Speaking as a writer rather than a programmer - I understand the programmer reluctance to document, and I think it is at the heart of the problem. I mean, I don't know if I was any help at all with the ACR documentation.

[J. M. Pescado]

Anyway, I agree with pretty much everything you said...nothing's more annoying than tearing your hair out trying to figure out a basic procedure that you know should be simplicity itself, and then realize that it is, once you know what you're doing, but you couldn't have acquired that information any way except trial and error.  It's wonderful that many of the people in the know are willing to help out--several of them have been very kind to me, and I'm certainly grateful--but who wants to have to tug at a more experienced modder's sleeve every single time they need to figure something out?  Especially when there are some (not the majority, but some) who clearly can't abide being pestered, and as often as not the guy whose signature contains a list of ways not to try to contact him is the acknowledged expert on what you're trying to do... *Sighs*

Programmers are not the most sociable people. It's an inherent nature of the alien thought process required to be a programmer: It distances you from the peasantry.

Anyway, whinging aside, it'd help if people would at least remove hopelessly outdated tutorials to cut down on confusion.  Or if some of the less arcane functions of SimPE (heh, and the more arcane ones, which would make Pes happy) were spun off into standalone programs that wouldn't change their interface every time they updated.  I can't imagine there's any overriding technical reason why some of the spiffy plugin functions couldn't be made to work separately if their creators wanted to go that route.  I know some people are already considering or working on such projects, and God bless and best of luck to 'em.

SimPE is very fond of arbitrary interface changes. It's one of the things that absolutely pisses me off about it...particularly when those interface changes actually REMOVE information and functionality!

[Ambular]

Programmers are not the most sociable people. It's an inherent nature of the alien thought process required to be a programmer: It distances you from the peasantry.

Granted, but oddly enough, Pes, you strike me as one of the more accessible ones.  At least to those of us who don't mind being kicked, stomped, beaten, harpooned, exploded, neck-wrung, creatively insulted, and otherwise burninated on a regular basis...

SimPE is very fond of arbitrary interface changes. It's one of the things that absolutely pisses me off about it...particularly when those interface changes actually REMOVE information and functionality!

Yeah, no kidding.  Or effectively hide it, even.  I think it struck me that something wasn't quite kosher a few iterations back when I suddenly couldn't find where to change a GUID or Group ID.  :p

[notveryawesome]

I've had the same problems that others are complaining about here. I'm not a complete idiot - I taught myself Flash for christ's sake, but SimPE has proven to be damn near impossible to learn, because the tutorials are outdated and each new version of the programme is completely different from the last. I admire Quaxi, and appreciate that he is willing to offer these amazing tools to the community for free, but really some consistency is in order. I can't even figure out how to register a unique GUID with this latest version of SimPE, and that *used* to be one of the simpler tasks!

[Inge]

Oh... I thought I was getting deja vu as I have just come from this same thread over at N99

I can't see the slightest benefit in starting a 2nd Wiki.  I don't think I need to explain why do I?   Anyone can contribute to the existing one it's not like there is any censorship on it.

[dizzy]

The lack of decent info is intentional. There has always been a deliberate effort by Maxis and EA to prevent modding. They no longer actively pursue modders, but they don't encourage modders either. There are several reasons, but the main ones are:

1) Internals for Sims are horrible, arbitrary and unsightly. They don't want people to know what bad code designers they are.
2) Freedom to modify your game scares people in high places (i.e. people who don't realize that Jack Thompson is an idiot who lies for a living).
3) Modders sometimes make better original objects than EA hackers, thus reducing the value of their product.

[Ambular]

The lack of decent info is intentional. There has always been a deliberate effort by Maxis and EA to prevent modding. They no longer actively pursue modders, but they don't encourage modders either. There are several reasons, but the main ones are:

1) Internals for Sims are horrible, arbitrary and unsightly. They don't want people to know what bad code designers they are.
2) Freedom to modify your game scares people in high places (i.e. people who don't realize that Jack Thompson is an idiot who lies for a living).
3) Modders sometimes make better original objects than EA hackers, thus reducing the value of their product.

Not to contradict, Dizzy, as I have no personal experience with trying to pry information out of Maxis/EA, but I know I have heard people say that Maxoids have been very helpful in figuring out some of the code.  Is that a left-hand/right-hand thing, do you think?  Or something that no longer applies now that Maxis is out of the picture?

Also, to borrow a page from the ongoing paysite/free site debate, I'm not sure it's to EA's advantage to discourage modders from making great content...it keeps interest in the game alive between expansions and adds to the overall value of the game (and I'd be very surprised if it hasn't given EA programmers some pretty spiffy ideas they wouldn't have had otherwise.)  It's even been suggested they've hidden certain content specifically so modders could find it, though I know a lot of people don't buy that claim.  Maybe they're trying to have it both ways...

[J. M. Pescado]

Not to contradict, Dizzy, as I have no personal experience with trying to pry information out of Maxis/EA, but I know I have heard people say that Maxoids have been very helpful in figuring out some of the code.  Is that a left-hand/right-hand thing, do you think?  Or something that no longer applies now that Maxis is out of the picture?

Could very well be a lefthand/righthand thing. On one hand, they SEEM to share information, but then promptly attempt to have noteworthy modders murdered, like the noteworthy attempt on Dizzy.

[wes_h]

Oh... I thought I was getting deja vu as I have just come from this same thread over at N99

I can't see the slightest benefit in starting a 2nd Wiki.  I don't think I need to explain why do I?   Anyone can contribute to the existing one it's not like there is any censorship on it.

For what it's worth, the wiki at MTS2 has been the exchange that got things where they are. People long absent deciphered the file format and divined the basic purpose for the various parts, based at least in part to the work that was done on SimCity4. Those that have done additional research since, myself included, stand on the shoulders of giants (my apologies to Sir Isaac Newton).

There is plenty of room for the critics to contribute themselves to the effort. There are plenty of known facts that have been disclosed in threads here (like dizzy's discoveries) and at MTS2 which are not in the wiki because NO ONE HAS WRITTEN IT UP. If you're waiting for someone else to do it for you, then you're a part of the problem.

The only in-depth thing I have done at the wiki is the GMDC reference. I didn't start it, and I didn't discover everything in it, but I have made my contribution and I keep it updated. I have some additional recent work that will be added when I get the last research finished.

<* Wes *>

(b.t.w Where/what is N99??)

[J. M. Pescado]

There is plenty of room for the critics to contribute themselves to the effort. There are plenty of known facts that have been disclosed in threads here (like dizzy's discoveries) and at MTS2 which are not in the wiki because NO ONE HAS WRITTEN IT UP. If you're waiting for someone else to do it for you, then you're a part of the problem.

Well, some of us don't write anything up either because it would be quickly nuked, or because we don't actually have access to do so in the first place.

[dizzy]

This is all just reverse-engineering. EA permits custom skins, walls and floors. The rest are all hacks.

If EA was interested in overall value, they would have released the source code to their game engine. Have they ever released source for anything? Have they ever allowed anyone other than EA/Maxis to use Edith?

Clearly, the decision makers are focused on short-term profits.

[wes_h]

Could very well be a lefthand/righthand thing. On one hand, they SEEM to share information, but then promptly attempt to have noteworthy modders murdered, like the noteworthy attempt on Dizzy.

Inside information sharing events have become a lot further apart since MaxoidTom disappeared.

[J. M. Pescado]

If EA was interested in overall value, they would have released the source code to their game engine. Have they ever released source for anything? Have they ever allowed anyone other than EA/Maxis to use Edith?

There are claims that they've allowed some people to use it, but I dismiss these claims as nothing more than lies and propaganda created by the Liberal-controlled media.

Inside information sharing events have become a lot further apart since MaxoidTom disappeared.

There are rumors that MaxoidTom was either forced to resign and/or disappeared under mysterious circumstances, perhaps due to accidentally blurting out the wrong thing.

[Inge]

(b.t.w Where/what is N99??)

Neighborhood 99 at http://p218.ezboard.com/bstarlightsims

[wes_h]

If EA was interested in overall value, they would have released the source code to their game engine.

So it would look as good as Blender?