Pinstar's new Apocalypse challenge

[Kyna]

Unawesome little me has been trying this challenge.  I should have made my founder a female.

My founder (knowledge sim, LTW max all skills) was permaplat before he left uni.  He reached the top of career to lift hopelessness, so he could marry.  At that point, if female, the founder could have given up their job to have kids.  As it was, I had to wait until the wife had 2 days off in a row before I could get her pregnant.  By then it was quite late in her life, with no time for a second child.  The founder quit his job to stay home and raise the kid, since I couldn't have a nanny.

The founder died two days before the child turned teen.  The wife was at level 9 in the medical career, working until 6pm.  So I failed the challenge as without a hack (that I forgot to remove) the nanny would have taken their only child away.   A female founder could have quit her job upon marriage as they'd already unlocked their career restriction anyway before marrying, and had more than one child well before they died of old age or at least had a teen by then.

I'm still playing this family though, as a practice run before I try again.

I have some questions if anyone can answer them (not all are about the rules of the challenge):
1. The child was born with 6 outgoing.  I encouraged that to 7, so he could use the sink for a sponge bath, except he wouldn't.  Kids can't autonomously sponge bathe?  His other stats were around the same as his parents (except that he was nicer) and they were able to use the sink.
2. How the heck do you keep a toddler's hygiene level up without a change table or tub?  They're too old to be bathed in the sink.  The red hygiene meant he wouldn't play with his toys to skill.
3. The heir is now a teen, knowledge, ltw max all skills.  He has maxed all skills except creativity (he can't write novels yet, so can't do creativity).  His parents are both dead.  The founder unlocked military, so he can go to college.  If I send him off to college, there's nobody in the house.  Will I have to buy him another lot when he returns from college, or is he not allowed to go to college as the house will be empty?
4. Founder was in the military career, to unlock college and the body reward.  The reward takes 9 squares lengthwise to place.  8 for the object itself, plus one more square at the end.  I was going to place it on an upper floor - but it's too big.  I take it this means that politics needs to be unlocked before the military reward can be placed on the lot?  I couldn't even put it in someone's inv to save for future generations as it's too big before the athletic reward is unlocked.

[J. M. Pescado]

The founder died two days before the child turned teen.  The wife was at level 9 in the medical career, working until 6pm.  So I failed the challenge as without a hack (that I forgot to remove) the nanny would have taken their only child away.   A female founder could have quit her job upon marriage as they'd already unlocked their career restriction anyway before marrying, and had more than one child well before they died of old age or at least had a teen by then.

Pssh, like there are supposed to be any social services after Armageddon anyway. Since this sounds like Awesomeware, you should be fine. Or I'll declare Pinstar to be sucky.

[Kyna]

Well, of course it was Awesomeware.  I know I suck ... so I choose hacks that are more awesome than me.

[Avalikia]

The problem with the founder being female is that you need to get rid of the hopelessness restrictions before they're too old to have kids, which could be difficult depending on how awesome you are.

[rohina]

The size of the military reward was discussed elsewhere. Pinstar suggested putting it on the ground - then you can still use it because the additional running-around square is there, even if it is technically outside the area. However, that means making your house foundation a lot smaller.

[Jelenedra]

Nothing wrong with that, there is always rooms for basements and you can always make the second floor hang over the course, so you're not really losing any space.

[Sketch Elder]

In light of the potential abuse of the time-freeze of a Uni business, I'm going to rule that you may not own an off-lot business in Uni. Not because you couldn't for story purposes, but because the idea of the Apocalypse is that it happens at a specific point of time. Specifically: Graduation. The idea of Uni is that you are racing against a ticking clock, one that you cannot stop.

What potential abuse? Businesses are standard gameplay for anyone who owns Open For Business. How can standard gameplay be considered abuse? I'm sorry if the advantages of OFB didn't occur to you but it's rather unsporting to change the rules in midgame just because somebody else is cleverer than you were, especially when the rule-change goes against the primary premise.

The rules already cover this quite clearly. "None of the restrictions applies to the founder in college, as the disaster has not occured yet." That means the Business restrictions on starting businesses and purchasing community lots don't apply to the founder in college. It also means that the Military restriction on traveling to community lots doesn't apply to the founder in college. There's no reason for these restrictions to apply since the disaster hasn't occured yet.

The Business restrictions (which don't apply while the founder is in college) say, "Your Sims may not start their own business or purchase community lots." The Business restrictions don't say your Sims can't own businesses, only that they can't start or purchase them. This is reasonable, because they might inherit a Business when a friend dies, so they could own one without starting or purchasing it. It's also reasonable because they might have started or purchased a business while the founder was at college, before the restrictions went into effect. Similar wording is found in all the other restrictions on purchasing things. None of them forbid ownership since you might come into ownership without a purchase or by bringing things home from college. In fact, the rules make it quite clear that you CAN bring things home from college that you will not be allowed to buy once you get there.

The game itself prevents on-lot businesses (home businesses) at Uni, so you are effectively saying that the founder in college can't have any businesses at all, and for the most part isn't allowed to use OFB at all. Under this new ruling, the founder in college, BEFORE the restrictions take effect, is even more restricted than the founder in the main neighborhood AFTER the restrictions take effect. That's entirely unreasonable.

[Jelenedra]

Not entirely.

In any case. Say you can own a business during Uni. It should be destoryed in the blast. You can keep all the money and perks you made but it seems unreasonable to think that you can still own and manage the building from home after the blast. Don't you think your customers and employees would kind of... feel the need NOT to go to work/go shopping after the Apocalypse?

Seriously.

It states in several of the restrictions the reasons why things are gone. Hopelessness, zombies, mafia, etc. etc.... Why should you happy shiny place your founder built in college be an exception?

Besides all that, the University/College Neighborhood wasn't protected in the blast. It was destoryed along with everything else while the neighborhood screen was loading after your sim graduated.

[J. M. Pescado]

Why would a kid in college who didnt know the world was ending be so focused on a buisness anyway? We all know college is for wohoo, parties, and bee.. erm.. fruit punch.

You obviously weren't alive when I was. In those days, we thought the nuclear flaming doom was right around the corner. Remember Cuba? Now that was staring armageddon in the face right there. All it would have taken is someone with an itchy trigger finger, and Pinstarland would have been real life. I was slightly disappointed it didn't quite work out. But eh, nuclear armageddon's kind of a bad thing, even if it is shiny.

[Ivy]

...cleverer (is that even a word?)

Why, yes, indeed it is:

linky here

If that doesn't help, we may need Elfie to reverse translate that...

And Uni+Ofb business wasn't something that I dreamed up overnight because of this challenge, heck it wasn't something I even dreamed up.  Maxis designed the game that way.  I merely laid it out on the table here as one possible way to play Uni to it's full advantage as Pinstar hinted at when the challenge was first talked about when he said to make to make the time at Uni count.  There's no better way to make the time at Uni count than to effectively stop time while you're there.  If not by business lot then a regular community lot will do just as well, and take advantage of your friends earning you money while you happily go do whatever else you want on that lot...again as designed.  In essence, since your founder is under no restrictions while at Uni, you are making money either way you look at it, you've still stopped time, are making the most out of it, and still haven't broken any rules.  Fortune simmies by design want to make lots and lots of money.  That alone is a solid basis for going with either strategy.

By no means am I saying anyone has to play this way.  And by no means am I saying any rules should be changed merely because we are discussing issues that weren't thought about when the challenge was designed; in fact I am completely against any rule changes after they've been published.  For some of us, the challenge is in "what's the fastest way to beat this challenge?" and in that is finding whatever loopholes have been left open.  In this challenge, why be miserable for one second longer than you have to? Isn't the entire point to lift the restrictions as fast as possible once your family is forced to live under those conditions? 

Every simmer sims differently.  Every challenge is perceived differently by every simmer.  What is hard to one simmer is a cakewalk to the next.  It all depends on your skill and what you perceive to be difficult. 

And the good thing about MATY: is everyone is entitled to have their own opinion...yay   Feel free to think it was rude for SketchElder to say what he/she did.  I happen to think it was spot on.  There are many things in this challenge that are left open to interpretation, and we won't all agree on them.  (Somehow I think we need a kitten picture... clicky here )  It's all good discussion nonetheless and makes you read and re-read what the rules are as stated to see if what you're reading is what it says it is and not what you think it says they are. 


Ivy

[Sagana]

I find it amusing that MATYians are more inclined to playtest the rules set than the actual challenge.

I don't mind that the rules get changed - wasn't planning on playing them that way anyway, and by the time Pes (et. al.) is done, Pinstar can rewrite them to eliminate a lot of questions, problems, and potential abuse.

ETA:

take advantage of your friends earning you money while you happily go do whatever else you want on that lot...again as designed.

In the standard Maxian game, there's no advantage to earning money at Uni, yes? When you leave, you lose it and pick up the 20k handout... unless I've forgotten something (I avoid Uni generally).

[gjam]

I'm sorry if the advantages of OFB didn't occur to you but it's rather unsporting to change the rules in midgame just because somebody else is cleverer than you were, especially when the rule-change goes against the primary premise.

It's fine-tuning, beta-testing if you like.  No one is perfect, to find every possible loophole, especially in a challenge this detailed.  Having some extra eyes go over the rules just makes it more interesting.  Most people are going to choose to play this specifically because they want something to make the game more difficult after getting bored with how easy "standard gameplay" is.

Yeah, maybe it would have been nice if Pinstar had said something like "This is a preliminary version--gimme feedback and after X amount of time I will update it to the final version."  But so what.  At least he is listening to the feedback and following up.  Most of the really good challenges evolve a little before they stabilize.   

Anyway, no one is looking over your shoulder, checking to see whether you are really following the rules.  Plenty of people play modified challenges to suit their own notion of what works.  It's not like anyone is judging the outcome.  Sure, if you are going to talk about your results, it's only honest to mention you used modified rules, but who knows, maybe some people will like your version better.

ETA:

In the standard Maxian game, there's no advantage to earning money at Uni, yes? When you leave, you lose it and pick up the 20k handout... unless I've forgotten something (I avoid Uni generally).

Don't they get whichever is greater--20K or their accumulated wealth?

(It's been a while since I played pure Uni--now I just stuff their inventory with high-value loot so I can divide up shares the way I want.)

[rhodaloo]

The one thing that is irritating to me is that one is almost forced to use a male founder.  I started off with a female founder and quickly realized that there was no way she was going to rise to the top of her career before the biological clock stopped ticking.  Let's face it, the first generation female will need to be a breeding machine.  I suppose I could have her boyfriend come visit and make her pregnant, but who knows how many genereations it would take before one could lift any restrictions? 

On a side note, like Pescado, I grew up during the time we thought that nuclear winter was around the corner.  Most of the strategies I plan to use in this challenge are what we were taught to do to hopefully survive after a nuclear blast.

[ElfPuddle]

I grew up believing the earth was doomed to nuclear winter....and that was much later than the Ancient Whaler. I had the "fortune" to grow up near a military base and nuclear silo.

<Edited? Certainly you're hallucinating!>

[rhodaloo]

I grew up surrounded by military bases etc.  Cheyenne Mountain was west of us, Omaha (home of the B52's ) to the NE plus all the missle silos were scattered all over the Great Plains.  We were sure to die a slow, painful death.  Now days I live near a major defense plant and a nuclear power plant so I figure I'll die fairly quickly.

[Jelenedra]

The whole point of challenges is to find new ways to get you addicted to the game. I for one, am thrilled as ... punch or whatever about this challenge and I can't wait to get my computer working again so I can make a Mad Maxian type of neighborhood.

Leather armor! Here I come!

Now if only I can find some trashy looking, post-apocalyptic cars....

[rohina]

The rules say you may not marry or move someone in before you unlock the hopelessness restriction. You may invite over people you are in love with, and best friends if you have a car. Female founder can definitely have kids. In fact, if you don't care about unlocking the second restriction in gen 1, there is no reason for a female founder to get married.

[Jelenedra]

Technically, your female founder could have 7 kids with random walkbys and then get a job. 

[rohina]

Well, precisely. Not sure that is a SMART strategy, but it is a strategy. Or perhaps more of a strategery.

[Rascal]

The one thing that is irritating to me is that one is almost forced to use a male founder.  I started off with a female founder and quickly realized that there was no way she was going to rise to the top of her career before the biological clock stopped ticking.  Let's face it, the first generation female will need to be a breeding machine.  I suppose I could have her boyfriend come visit and make her pregnant, but who knows how many genereations it would take before one could lift any restrictions? 

What if one of the items you brought back was the elixer?  You could get your sim to the top of her career - then drink the whole bottle, get married, quit job and start popping out kids.

[rohina]

As far as I can see, this is just one more argument in favour of Natural Science as the career of choice.

[Jelenedra]

Mayhaps even TWO Elixiars, as that is something that is not replaceable, and as such, cannot be taxed by the mob. (Which is a mean restriction, btw, so Criminal Mastermind spouse FTW!)

[Sagana]

Don't they get whichever is greater--20K or their accumulated wealth?

Probably - that sounds like something I read sometime, but somehow sort of thought it didn't work in practice, but I dunno. As I said I tend to avoid Uni and don't think I've played without no 20k handouts since... well probably since about the time I got Uni

The whole point of challenges is to find new ways to get you addicted to the game. I for one, am thrilled as ... punch or whatever about this challenge and I can't wait to get my computer working again so I can make a Mad Maxian type of neighborhood.

Yeah, that's how I feel too. The challenge is so much fun, I'm enjoying just the talk about it. All of it. I love reading about the different strategies.

[Pinstar]

In regards to the social worker... I admit there would be no 'social services' in an apocalyptic world. However, leaving young children by themselves is also a BAD idea, in a post apocalyptic world. There are much nastier things than little Timmy getting a bump on his head...like little Timmy wandering out and getting eaten by zombies or little Timmy trying to build a snowman out of the toxic ash.

Keep the social worker for this challenge... and pretend a parent needs to stay home just to keep the infant/toddler/children alive.
Maybe someone could make a mod where the grim reaper replaces the social worker when the kids get taken away.

In regards to the mid-game rules change. I don't like to do this, and for little tricks and work-arounds I chalk that up to player creativity.
However, spending effectively unlimited time in Uni kind of defeats the purpose. Several restrictions fall by the wayside if the founder comes home from college with an ungodly amount of money and powerful business perks under their belt. Don't expect me to make any more major rules shifts like that again. Just little tweaks and clarifications.

Next time I come up with a challenge, I'll be using you guys as my play testers. This board has a sharp wit for spotting loopholes.

[Avalikia]

Pescando has trained us well.  I'm still trying to find more of the intentional loopholes in his rules for the Ethiopian challenge.  I just know I'm missing something...  Finding unintentional loopholes is much easier.