Sim Chemistry= Stupid coding?

[cwykes]

This is one thing I haven't figured out about this system.  As mentioned in an earlier example, Family sims are attracted to Knowledge sims, but Knowledge sims are neutral towards family sims.  So, do they get a lightning bolt or not? What does a neutral/good combo get you in the game? What about bad/neutral compatibility?

It doesn't makes sense to me that the zodiac and aspiration compatibilities are not equal, but yet both sides of the couple have the same number of bolts.  I mean, I do understand that the bolts are the overall chemistry rather than the individual attraction, but I don't understand the purpose of this.  What is the point of attractions not being equal, if it has no effect on game play? Or does it have an effect that's measured in some way other than lightning bolts?

The bolts are the same for both sims, because the game averages out the stats on both sides and gives is an average answer for the relationship in bolts.  So in a family knowledge combination you probably won't get a 3 bolter because there is no boost coming from a + attraction on the knowledge sim side.  They'll still be attracted if their personalities match because there is a positive from the family sim side.  Bolts are supposed to help you pair up sims I suppose. I guess they let you get a romance started faster.  They "guarantee" a positive response to early romance moves by your sim.  He can still push too hard too soon of course even with 3 bolts.  If seeing 3 bolts on your sim might mean 0 on the other sim, you'd be no better off.

Zodiac signs are just a set of personality profiles in the Sims2.  They work as a shortcut provided your Sim personality hasn't been modified.  If you use encourage to make a lazy sim kid more active, their personality changes but the zodiac sign doesn't.  So zodiac sign is useless for them.  If you want to use zodiac signs you'd need to fix them in SimPE.

Thanks for pointing me to the original source of the table - I'll note it and give credit in future. 

[J. M. Pescado]

Actually, as of NL, the Zodiac sign carries a attraction effect independently of personality affinity. There's a personality affinity factor *AND* a Zodiacal attraction. Pre-NL, Both Personality and Zodiac sign were meaningless and had no effect, and it was based entirely on interest coincidence.

The TS2 system as of NL is essentially based on the idea that sims want someone exactly like them, and the closer a sim is to being exactly like them, the better.

The most outrageous attraction factor, therefore, will be between two cheese sims that are otherwise identical in personality, zodiac, and interests. And have matching turn-ons.

[cwykes]

Thanks for the update - I'll have to eat humble pie and explain to a whole set of board friends I gave them old info.
I don't have NL, but I have OFB.  that means I have the new version of attraction right?

Am I right about zodiac not changing when you encourage a kid?  So for a CAS sim personality and zodiac sign are pretty much the same thing, but for a highly encouraged sim they are quite different?

[J. M. Pescado]

I don't have NL, but I have OFB.  that means I have the new version of attraction right?

The attraction engine is incorporated into OFB even if you lack NL. Certain tools for manipulating it may not be available if you lack NL.

Am I right about zodiac not changing when you encourage a kid?  So for a CAS sim personality and zodiac sign are pretty much the same thing, but for a highly encouraged sim they are quite different?

Zodiac cannot change by any normal in-game action. Zodiac can be altered if you use the debug cheat to alter a sim's personality by dragging the bars, editing it in SimPE, or frobbing it with the lob debugger. Personality and Zodiac are normally directly correlated: Each astrology has an archetype personality, and a sim's natural astrology (if created in CAS or dragged in debug) will be the archetype with the shortest 5D distance from the sim's personality. However, a sim's personality can be changed in-game independently of the Zodiac, which never changes.

[cwykes]

Thank you for that wonderfully clear explanation.  I'll pass the info on like always.

[Kokopelli]

Try this then:

Compatability Chart

* Hits thanks button*
Off to destroy sim lives...oops  I mean play my game

[Ancient Sim]

The TS2 system as of NL is essentially based on the idea that sims want someone exactly like them, and the closer a sim is to being exactly like them, the better.

This, of course, is where the system falls short.  Certainly sexually-speaking, the most magnetic attractions are between opposites, and there's no allowance for this in the game.  Before the bolt system, I had a lot of opposite couples, but very few now unless I alter their personalities without altering their signs, which I prefer not to do.  I do have a lot of Knowledge/Family couples though and they always have 3 bolts, they're very strongly attracted to each other, at least in my game.  I've never really understood why, though.  I can't see what the attraction of loads of kids would be to someone whose main enjoyment in life was studying.  I'd have thought kids would have been something they'd want to avoid - all those sticky fingers on their books, all those ripped-out pages ... no, they got somethng wrong there.  Then again, they got something wrong in a lot of places!

[J. M. Pescado]

I've never understood why Knowledge and Family have positive affinity at all, either. Every single person here who would be classified as being Knowledge-sim like tends to recoil in horror at the behaviors of family sims. And it's known fact that people of higher education reproduce less. I would think that Knowledge sims would have a great affinity to Fortune sims rather than Family sims. Also, what's the deal with Family/Romance couples? Maxis supplies us with tons of them, but they hate each other.

Although I honestly don't think I could possibly stand somebody not at all like me. That entire opposite-attracts thing is obviously not entirely true. The opposite of me would annoy the crap out of me with constant whining, incessant laziness, and slovenly disregard for discipline and order. If opposites attract, they also annihilate explosively on contact.

[Hegelian]

Being family-oriented doesn't need to mean wanting a boatload of children. A sustainable argument can be made that a proliferation of children will most likely degrade the family experience, reducing it to an exercise in crisis management. A quality family experience can be had with a family size of just three or four members. That knowledge-oriented people choose to limit their contribution to overpopulation doesn't make them "anti-family." 

Historically, family size has been related to economic class rather than education per se; but of course there is a strong correlation between income level and educational level so you can't really separate them (a concept which is difficult, I know, for many Americans to grasp, given our collective aversion to complexity and multiple, interrelateded causes). There are both pragmatic and "other" reasons for this:  Prior to widespread "industrialization" (in actuality, the important element of the process wasn't the mechanization of production, which came later, but rather the reorganization of production and labor into capitalist forms), there were economic benefits for laboring couples to have several children, since once they were past toddler age they could contribute to the household economy (particularly in rural areas); whereas for members of the landed gentry, the emerging professional class, and the nascent owner class (the servant-keeping classes), children were an economic liability and could also raise issues of inheritance and support (in the UK, by law all property and titles went to the eldest son (primogeniture) and estates could not be divided up at will (entail)), leading to the situation you see in so many 19th-Century English novels of younger sons of the privileged classes going into either the church or the military as the only suitable occupations for those of their class (see Trollope, for example).

The advent of the "factory" organization of labor (centralization) and then mechanization (with the associated move from the countryside to factory towns) meant that for the laboring classes, almost all income (meagre as it was) derived from work performed outside the home, so that from the late 19th century on, the economic advantages of having many children drained away, until reproducing irreponsibly became as much or more of an economic liablity for them as it was for the privileged classes.

Of course, Adam Smith and other capitalist ideologues notwithstanding, most people do not always (if ever) make their choices or otherwise behave on the basis of a rational assessment of their best interests (and when they do, they are often mistaken in where their best interests lie), and so there remain millions of folks reproducing at rates that exceed their financial resources and which are, ultimately, selfish and irresponsible. There is nothing we do that has a greater impact on the world around us than introduce a new person into the world—especially when we don't have the resources to properly care for and educate the child ourselves; and since virtually all our social and environmental problems can be traced to overpopulation, having more children than the number of adults they replace is irresponsible IMO.   

As far as the game goes, it is not an original observation on my part to remark that that the behavior of the various aspiration types often seems at odds with their nominal aspiration:  Romance sim wants are much more what I would consider appropriate for Pleasure sims, Pleasure sims seem like Fortune sims, and some Fortune sims seem like they should be Romance sims. But the game is a cartoon, so it's no surprise that the behaviors are excessive and cartoon-like (see: jealousy).

Edited for usage.   

[Kokopelli]

In my humble opinion. Family sims love Knowledge sims because they are smarter than family sims. Romance will love anybody, Fortune loves anyone willing to work and spend, Popularity (see romance), Pleasure and grilled cheese who the fuck cares about them.

[daephene]

Knowledge sims with the right personality tend to want to teach their children as much as family sims do... teaching toddler skills and encouraging them in the child stage and so on.  So I can see the connection.  It may not make sense for real world equivalents, but it can make sense by sim logic.

[Jelenedra]

My couples are usually Fortune and Family. They have no problem getting along.

[J. M. Pescado]

Being family-oriented doesn't need to mean wanting a boatload of children. A sustainable argument can be made that a proliferation of children will most likely degrade the family experience, reducing it to an exercise in crisis management. A quality family experience can be had with a family size of just three or four members. That knowledge-oriented people choose to limit their contribution to overpopulation doesn't make them "anti-family." 

Of course, the typical family sim's wants are all oriented towards "boatloads of children". This tendency naturally makes us knowledge-types recoil in horror. The typical family sim's interest in their children also seems largely limited to pestering and harassment.

Of course, Adam Smith and other capitalist ideologues notwithstanding, most people do not always (if ever) make their choices or otherwise behave on the basis of a rational assessment of their best interests (and when they do, they are often mistaken in where their best interests lie), and so there remain millions of folks reproducing at rates that exceed their financial resources and which are, ultimately, selfish and irresponsible. There is nothing we do that has a greater affect on the world around us than introduce a new person into the world—especially when we don't have the resources to properly care for and educate the child ourselves; and since virtually all our social and environmental problems can be traced to overpopulation, having more children than the number of adults they replace is irresponsible IMO.   

The unfortunate problem with most nice, neat theories is that they ignore the fact that most people don't behave on the basis of a rational assessment of their best interests, because most people are stupid. If you've ever tried pointing out the logical solution to someone only to have them reply with inane nonsense, you'll know what I mean.

As far as the game goes, it is not an original observation on my part to remark that that the behavior of the various aspiration types often seems at odds with their nominal aspiration:  Romance sim wants are much more what I would consider appropriate for Pleasure sims, Pleasure sims seem like Fortune sims, and some Fortune sims seem like they should be Romance sims. But the game is a cartoon, so it's no surprise that the behaviors are excessive and cartoon-like (see: jealousy).

Well, me, I try to read into a sim's aspirational type based on his wants, independent of the "description", which is largely propaganda: Knowledge sims like gaining skillpoints and seeing and experiencing strange stuff. Some of them can be quite evil in their wants. Popularity Sims are obsessed with making more and more friends, with a largely superficial focus on any of them. Romance sims want sex. They're ultimately not too picky about who it's with. Family sims want, well, boatloads of children. Fortune sims want to both earn lots of money and then blow it on useless expensive junk. Pleasure sims seem to be entirely run by random silly whims. And Cheese sims want to eat cheese. They're pretty much monomaniacal about their interest. Of the lot, of course, Cheese Sims are by far the most consistent and logical in their desires.

[sudaki]

The opposite of me would annoy the crap out of me with constant whining, incessant laziness, and slovenly disregard for discipline and order.

Also, I bet he (she?) would want to hug all the time.

[cwykes]

Although I honestly don't think I could possibly stand somebody not at all like me. That entire opposite-attracts thing is obviously not entirely true. The opposite of me would annoy the crap out of me with constant whining, incessant laziness, and slovenly disregard for discipline and order. If opposites attract, they also annihilate explosively on contact.

Choosing a mate ought to be a long-term decision not a moment of impulse.  3 bolt attraction to someone just like you or to your exact opposite doesn't mean it's a good long term match.  Anyone who's done recruitment or teamwork will have had it drummed into them that you get better results if you don't look for people just like you.  You'll be more comfortable in a group of "you" types, but the outcome won't be as good.  If you marry someone who complements your personality, you'll do better as a team in the long term.  The grass is going to look greener elsewhere occasionally, but unless you're stupid you pick the long term best answer and stick with it.  Now that marriage isn't for life, seems to me that people tend not to think too far ahead, make more stupid decisions and give up too easily.   

I've only had attraction in my game since I got OFB, so I'm still looking at my couples with that in mind.  I've been using it to help sims choose, but maybe I'll stop.  You can get any two sims to become best friends, then fall in love, get married and live happily ever after.  Romance sims are the only ones who regularly throw wants about romance with other sims.  Keeping Romance sims from flirting with anyone in sight is a problem whether or not they have a 3 bolt attraction to their spouse.  In fact it looks to me like attraction is only really useful for romance sims in a hurry to get laid and probably helps popularity sims make friends a bit faster.

[J. M. Pescado]

Choosing a mate ought to be a long-term decision not a moment of impulse.

I've been saying that for years. It should involve a rigorous battery of testing and examinations.

3 bolt attraction to someone just like you or to your exact opposite doesn't mean it's a good long term match.

Does in the Simworld, since it means you get a huge +boost to STR, LTR, and mood for everything you attempt to do.

Choosing a mate ought to be a long-term decision not a moment of impulse.  3 bolt attraction to someone just like you or to your exact opposite doesn't mean it's a good long term match.  Anyone who's done recruitment or teamwork will have had it drummed into them that you get better results if you don't look for people just like you.  You'll be more comfortable in a group of "you" types, but the outcome won't be as good.  If you marry someone who complements your personality, you'll do better as a team in the long term.  The grass is going to look greener elsewhere occasionally, but unless you're stupid you pick the long term best answer and stick with it.  Now that marriage isn't for life, seems to me that people tend not to think too far ahead, make more stupid decisions and give up too easily.

That depends on what you mean by "complements". In my case, it's definitely not "the opposite of me", which is doomed to endless bickering, fighting, and outright bloodshed. Well, okay, not endless. It'll actually end in only a few minutes. Besides, the entire point of marriages are to have someone that you won't be compelled to murder eventually. Whereas teamwork is at best temporary and conditional: You team up, you do your work, you part ways until the next time the team must be assembled. The same cannot be said for a marriage! Besides, "complementation" can actually be quite a bad breeding program, since it is quite likely that your spawn will thus merely come out average, which is inferior. Better to specialize and focus on your strengths. If you breed a large dog and a small dog, you're going to likely get a medium-sized dog, which fulfills neither the advantages of a large nor small dog. Optimal TEAMWORK occurs when you pair strengths with weaknesses, because the strengths of one can cover the weaknesses of the other, but optimal BREEDING occurs when you pair strengths with strengths.

I've only had attraction in my game since I got OFB, so I'm still looking at my couples with that in mind.  I've been using it to help sims choose, but maybe I'll stop.  You can get any two sims to become best friends, then fall in love, get married and live happily ever after.  Romance sims are the only ones who regularly throw wants about romance with other sims.  Keeping Romance sims from flirting with anyone in sight is a problem whether or not they have a 3 bolt attraction to their spouse.  In fact it looks to me like attraction is only really useful for romance sims in a hurry to get laid and probably helps popularity sims make friends a bit faster.

Keep in mind that the +mood boost is very handy in making sure actions are not rejected, even with relations at 100/100. Of course, ultimately, sims have no real minds of their own and work with anyone you put them with, so go figure.

[cwykes]

Keep in mind that the +mood boost is very handy in making sure actions are not rejected, even with relations at 100/100. Of course, ultimately, sims have no real minds of their own and work with anyone you put them with, so go figure.

Exactly - the relationship works no matter who you pair them off with.  Most married sims are at or close to 100/100 so they can handle the odd rejection.


Re the rest - breeding two romance sims to get a super-romance sim is a horrific idea!  Better to match them up by looks!

[rohina]

Okay, I was messing around with this in a perverse bachelor challenge, where I made all the guys have negative attraction for the woman. She did eventually fall in love with one of them, but it took way longer than it would have if they had had any bolts at all.

The main thing I noticed was that the sims were very unlikely to do any spontaneous interaction with the one they thought was gross, and so she ended up spending a lot of time alone. If the pathetic following each other around of attracted couples bugs you, this is clearly the way to go.

Of course, several of the guys fell in love with each other.

[J. M. Pescado]

Re the rest - breeding two romance sims to get a super-romance sim is a horrific idea!  Better to match them up by looks!

I dunno, that seems like the ideal traits if you want to play pure r-strategy. Aspiration is not inheritive, however.

[ElfPuddle]

Besides, the entire point of marriages are to have someone that you won't be compelled to murder eventually.

I thought the whole point was to have yet one more person who couldn't be compelled to testify against you? 

[neriana]

Besides, the entire point of marriages are to have someone that you won't be compelled to murder eventually.

I thought the whole point was to have yet one more person who couldn't be compelled to testify against you? 

I thought spouses were the only people who couldn't be compelled to testify against you. There are more?

Rohina: I assume you will have a new story posted soon, yes?

[ElfPuddle]

Well, you can't be compelled to testify against yourself, either.

[liegenschonheit]

Also your priest, your lawyer and your doctor. They can't tell what you said in confidence either.

As for your spouse, he/she can't say what you told them, but they can testify as to your actions.


I watch the Law and Order. >.>

[neriana]

Also your priest, your lawyer and your doctor. They can't tell what you said in confidence either.

As for your spouse, he/she can't say what you told them, but they can testify as to your actions.


I watch the Law and Order. >.>

I do too, but I forgot about the professions. So it's a good idea to keep on good terms with your spouse, because though s/he can testify as to your actions, s/he can't be forced to.

[J. M. Pescado]

I thought the whole point was to have yet one more person who couldn't be compelled to testify against you? 

Wouldn't it work better not to have somebody around to witness what you're doing instead? Then they STILL can't be compelled to testify against you, because they don't know anything. And then there's the old saying, "Two can keep a secret, if one of them is dead."