Hurricane Katrina

[Judecat]

If anyone has seen the movie or the Musical Hairspray -- the characters are a parody of the working class women in Baltimore who call everyone Hon.   We even celebrate that parody every year in a "Hon fest."  And have pagent for the Best "Hon" of the year.       But basically,  hon is the expected polite address to ones friends and customers. 

I liked how in Germany prostitution was not only legal,  but they had medical benefits.  When I was preganant and crancky I told my 1st husband I'd rather give him 50 marks to go downtown than have him cheat on me with another WAC.  I personally think they provide a useful service -- if they are doing it voluntarily.

  I see the statistics about the in equality in pay all the time,  but I have never actually seen it in practice.  Statistics aside,  have you ever made less,  or been denied promotion to a higher paying position solely because of your gender. 
   I have never been turned down for a job because of gender,  and I have never gotten a lower starting pay,  or less frequent promotions because of my gender.  The last 3 people who beat me out for promotion had BA degrees and all I have is an AA.   2 of them were men.  The promotions   was listed as BA degree or 4 years experience.   I had 10 years experience -- both men had BA degrees and at least 10 years experience. One of the promotions I lost was to a woman who I had trained at the job,  but she had gotten a masters degree in her spare time,  so her masters trumped my experience.  Heck this past summer I've been temping for the building company where my husband is contractor,  as a laborer,  and I get payed the same as any other laborer.  Yeah the carpenters make more-  but I'm not qualified to be a carpenter.

 

[witch]

Again, as Veilchen says, how lucky you are Judecat that you have never experienced pay inequality. In New Zealand male dominated careers - eg the police force - are paid higher rates than female dominated professions such as nursing, this is inequitable from the beginning. I don't know the statistics off by heart, but I do know there are far more women who are earning under the average wage than there are men. There are far more men earning over the average wage than there are women. So job by job, there may be an equality of an hourly rate - for instance in the toilet cleaning profession, but overall 'mens' work' pays better than 'womens' work'.

There are also the intangibles to consider, when women take time out from careers to raise children, of course they slip back in the experience, confidence and promotion stakes. The old boys network is alive and well, various estimates are touted but no-one really knows how many of the top jobs are passed around amongst the boys, the only agreement is that 'who you know' can still have a big impact on what sorts of jobs are available to any individual.

As a woman working in the tertiary education industry I am almost making the average wage of nine years ago and I have an IT degree. So pay inequity is alive and well in this part of the world and I suspect it is not so different anywhere else.

[Danni]

Something interesting I discovered yesterday (my first day of college). On the course I'm on (National Diploma for IT Practicioners - ICT Systems Support) of the 28 students, I was the only female. Even all the tutors are male. In this age of equality, I wonder why more women don't want to do computer networking? Is it just because I'm a geek?

I know that agency workers are normally paid a lot less than full time workers in jobs such as cleaning (even though they do exactly the same work) and women are more likely to be agency workers than men. Also, women are more likely to work part time (due to family commitments and such), therefore tend to be lower paid. I feel the agency workers should have comparible pay to the full time workers doing the same job, as that is causing inequality. In the higher paid jobs, you see less inequality, though you also see a lot more men working in them.

What witch said is true for the UK too. There are more women living on the minimum wage than men, and there are a lot more men earning the top wages.

[J. M. Pescado]

Something interesting I discovered yesterday (my first day of college). On the course I'm on (National Diploma for IT Practicioners - ICT Systems Support) of the 28 students, I was the only female. Even all the tutors are male. In this age of equality, I wonder why more women don't want to do computer networking? Is it just because I'm a geek?

Probably because most normal women avoid having anything to do with computers. Relating to computers on that kind of level tends to be mechanistic and mathematical, and not at all social, which tends to run counter to the way female brains are supposedly wired.

So basically, you're a freak.

[SciBirg]

Something interesting I discovered yesterday (my first day of college). On the course I'm on (National Diploma for IT Practicioners - ICT Systems Support) of the 28 students, I was the only female. Even all the tutors are male. In this age of equality, I wonder why more women don't want to do computer networking? Is it just because I'm a geek?

Well, if you're a geek then I am too. I got my BA in computer science and then promptly got stuck doing helpdesk because everyone else have Master's degrees. 
At least I get to do some Unix support too, not just regular WinXP. We are about 50% women here though, but I am the only one so far on Unix.

[witch]

Something interesting I discovered yesterday (my first day of college). On the course I'm on (National Diploma for IT Practicioners - ICT Systems Support) of the 28 students, I was the only female. Even all the tutors are male. In this age of equality, I wonder why more women don't want to do computer networking? Is it just because I'm a geek?

I found similar gender balances all through my IT study, though probably 6-7 of 20 were usually female. We had maybe 3-4 female tutors out of 20. (Rough guesstimates over 10 years. Things did improve slightly balance wise over that time - more female students too, though still concentrated on the helpdesk side rather than the programming, and that's still dominated by high voiced pimply boys. If I ever get around to doing my research for masters, I want to measure the geek factor. Compare students from several top popular study areas, discover the gender balances over several years, survey the hapless students, then see if a geek factor in IT can be measured.

...Also, women are more likely to work part time (due to family commitments and such), therefore tend to be lower paid.

Ah yes, the part-time work, low pay, no perks, unions pretty toothless, no sick or domestic or annual leave  - or pitiful variants thereof - yes, more barriers.

Edit: Hey Danni - 27 guys to yourself? - great place to meet men, and many females don't seem to have tumbled to it! Good place to meet intelligent men too. My current partner is the best mate of a guy I did tech with 14 years ago. 

[witch]

Probably because most normal women avoid having anything to do with computers. Relating to computers on that kind of level tends to be mechanistic and mathematical, and not at all social, which tends to run counter to the way female brains are supposedly wired.

So basically, you're a freak.

  Mmm Yup! I'll own up too.

I think brains, like many other things, operate on a spectrum. I believe you can be somewhere in between two extremes, the supposed female / male dichotomy, I use computers creatively as well as mechanistically.

[Judecat]

In Maryland USA,  there are more young woman working than young men,  and most start theire work experience in Minimum wage jobs.  It's not a matter of the boys get higher paying jobs,  it's that the boys are refusing to work for miniume wage.   

Also wonder if they are including high payed jocks in the statistics.   I think if you leave out teen aged McD workers on one end and high payed jocks on the other -- I think the figures would even out a bit more.

[laeshanin]

Pay equality is a myth. Women are still, in many situations, in the worst paid jobs, and I will agree with Judecat that it is because it is known that men will not lower themselves to accept that level of pay. So they're left to people who will, usually women who have no qualifications and/or young children that need them at home. They may even be single parents, and trying to get away from that berated welfare system. You have only to look at statistics to realise just how little the gender gap has decreased and that there is a glass ceiling for women. There are still more men at the top of their league than women, and until our primary role of "caregiver" is challenged I do not see that changing in the near future. Who here, as a working single mother, has had to fight to take some time from work for her child if said child was ill? Or if time was needed to go to an important event? Things like this are seen as disruptive to companies (public or otherwise) and show a severe lack of commitment by the parent to their employer. After all, isn't that where your first loyalty should be? This is one of the reasons we are still at the bottom the pile; our ability to reproduce. That and industry and society dislike change, no matter how slow it is.

[ZephyrZodiac]

It isn't just single mothers who have to take time of work if their child is sick!  In most families, the wife is still expected to do this, mainly because her earnings are lower and therefore the family budget suffers less, but also I think it's still because it's seen as their role!  And employers tend to be more understanding if a woman takes time off for a sick child than if a man does!

Interesting arguments about payscales and glass ceilings, though!  Which sex on the whole leave school better qualified?  In the UK teenage girls still do better at school than boys, and mostly I would suspect, are more willing to start work or go on to college than boys, yet the minute they take time out to have a baby they're penalized!  As if it's women's fault that they are the sex that gets pregnant!  (In an ideal world, couples would be able to take pregnancy in turns,
but unfortunately it isn't an ideal world!)

[Judecat]

But what I see on the street with the guys who won't lower themselves to accept minimum wage aren't working at all,  and it's not just teenagers.

State of Maryland has a program called Temporary Ememergenycy Housing and Parmacy program.  There is also a straight standard   They give you $100 a monthand  a pharmacy card to get your prescriptions for$  3  dollars each,  and free clinic.   
  Ask some of the 40 and 50 year old males  why they don't get a job, " well all I can get is minimum wage and that's an insult,  I ain't to N word"   (And then after I get their benefits typed into the computer they wanna know what I'm doing Tonight.)
  Now the straight pharmacy card you can make over 10,000 a year and still keep the card and the clinic visits -- just costs $5 instead of three.   So rather than work at a job they feel is demeaning they end of living in a substandard boarding house and pan handling cigiarettes on the street.  Or living home with their retired on a pension momma's.

Girls get out of school and get low paying jobs,  guys get out of school and refuse to work unless they are getting enough to satisfy their ego.

[ZephyrZodiac]

In this country that's what doing away with apprenticeships back in the 70's, and raising the School Leaving Age to 16 at the same time, caused!  16 year olds would even expect to work on a building site labouring and get the same pay as a strong, fit 30-year-old with a skill like bricklaying!  And a 16 year old may have loads of energy when he gets to work in the morning (if he hasn't been up half the night clubbing) but whereas the 30 year old will still be going strong at 3 in the afternoon, the 16 year old is totally knackered by lunchtime!

And those who won't work, they either, as you say, live off an elderly parent, (and I don't include those decent sons who give up a future to look after one) or they find a woman who is fool enough to support them!  (The low pay of the unqualified may be demeaning for them, but obviously they aren't demeaned by living off a woman who can scarcely afford to support herself and her kids!)

Until he day that women in that situation, supporting a bone idle sponger, all turn around en masse and throw them all out into the street, this situation will continue!

[witch]

Until he day that women in that situation, supporting a bone idle sponger, all turn around en masse and throw them all out into the street, this situation will continue!

Well said! And that is part of our responsibilities as women. My part is in education, like working with partners of men doing the 'living without violence' course (albeit years ago), volunteer work at womens' refuge and so on. I'm not an official volunteer at the moment but I get a lot of 'woman sharing' at my workplace and with the students.

The students. It lifts my heart to see the young women who have a sense of themselves so clearly, assume they are equal to men, naturally assume the right to make decisions about their lives and are making sensible choices about study and lifestyle. Of course not all are like this, but even the students with baggage learn something of community and caring and options. Watching someone become a responsible adult over a couple of years is a powerful thing to see.

[laeshanin]

It isn't just single mothers who have to take time of work if their child is sick!  In most families, the wife is still expected to do this, mainly because her earnings are lower and therefore the family budget suffers less, but also I think it's still because it's seen as their role!  And employers tend to be more understanding if a woman takes time off for a sick child than if a man does!

Interesting arguments about payscales and glass ceilings, though!  Which sex on the whole leave school better qualified?  In the UK teenage girls still do better at school than boys, and mostly I would suspect, are more willing to start work or go on to college than boys, yet the minute they take time out to have a baby they're penalized!  As if it's women's fault that they are the sex that gets pregnant!  (In an ideal world, couples would be able to take pregnancy in turns,
but unfortunately it isn't an ideal world!)

Not sure that I agree with that first part, but only because men taking time out to go to a school event are looked upon as heros whereas it's just a necessary part of the daily grind for a woman. Possibly a tad cynical, but hey... I think that either gender are frowned on if you take time off for any reason, but especially if a child is sick. Family Friendly Policy? Please, do me a favour  I work in Social Services and the HR people know it exists (so do the union) but no-one has ever seen the bloody thing. I believe it to be a work of fiction.

And I've seen the frilly lipped look in action for pregnancy. Women are considered to be a liability. Still!

Yes, girls perform better across the board. It's called the XY Divide and is a known phenomena. You look at any school, or learning disabilities home and you'll see that far more males are intellectually challenged. They also have a higher rate of attrition from birth as well as higher levels of physical disability. Don't it make ya glad you got the double 'X' (unless you got two defective and are colourblind etc)?

[witch]

There's concern in New Zealand about boys not performing as well as girls in education. In fact, boys' achievements haven't changed, circumstances, customs and educational practices have changed, allowing girls to reach more of their potential.

I wonder if that's what the patriarchy were really always scared of. 

PS> The 'frilly lipped look' love it to pieces Laeshanin!
PPS: And the older the person, the frillier it gets. 

[laeshanin]

Yeah, because if a female does well it has to be because "she's had more help and the system favours girls".  I would try banging my head or chewing on the table but it's a pointless exercise. Males are, sadly, evolutionarily designed to have shorter attention spans, less communication capability (and they do, still, go "uug"), and be driven to shag the youngest most fecund female. Plus there's the whole peacock tail feather thing as soon as you get them mixed with girls. And I like men, I really do.

My, didn't you know you can't get pregnant if you are over the age of thirty? For a start, who's gonna want to have sex with a wrinkly?

Gotta ask, though, completely off topic, what's happening to the thread as it's gone very quiet? Are people playing the new EP? And is it any good, and should I waste my hard earned or am I going to have a struggle to get the damn thing to work?

[witch]

Well, guess people are tackling the EP, don't know about playing it yet!

I'm not buying till October 'cos I made a pledge not to buy in this financial quarter. Mind you, I've just about reached 2nd generation on my new custom everything n'hood. There's no way I'm risking that till I know it's safe to go downtown at night.

[Zeljka]

Anyone heard from Reggiko lately?
Wonder how she's doing, hope she found things more or less how they ought to be and can get things sorted out quickly...

p.s. though I haven't been to this thread lately,  I loved the squirrel.
I watch CNN and saw at least one of their reporters (Anderson Cooper) doing their job as well as taking part in rescue efforts. 

[witch]

No, she said she wouldn't have Internet access for a while, I guess we're just hanging around chatting till she gets back.

[J. M. Pescado]

Yes, girls perform better across the board. It's called the XY Divide and is a known phenomena. You look at any school, or learning disabilities home and you'll see that far more males are intellectually challenged. They also have a higher rate of attrition from birth as well as higher levels of physical disability. Don't it make ya glad you got the double 'X' (unless you got two defective and are colourblind etc)?

It's also worth noting that males generally form the outliers in most categories. This is because males are more expendable and thus used nature's test dummies. Some tests work our great, others....not so great. Females tend to run closer to the average. Just as when you test something out, you tend to choose something expendable to try it on, nature does the same thing, and males are expendable. Expendability is hardwired into being a male, and as such, we tend to be the ones who do the crazy crap that will get us killed. Because we're expendable, you don't really need that many of us.

[Danni]

I guess I have a male brain, since my best subjects are maths and IT. If that makes me a freak then I guess I shouldn't post the pic of me in my glasses, sitting in computer class taken 3 years ago...

[witch]

It's also worth noting that males generally form the outliers in most categories.

So there are more men spread to the ends of a bell curve, with females more concentrated in the centre?

[laeshanin]

That would seem to be the case, though I hadn't really thought about evolution as a bell curve even though it is a statistically proven thingy.

J.M.'s right. In the great plan (life), males are expendable because you just don't need that many to fertilise females. All the energy in procreation goes into rearing young, and the general rule of thumb is that females do that. There are some exceptions (aren't there always?), but the hairy ones tend to get away scot free when it comes to the kiddies. We are also symmetrical, genetically speaking (XX) and men aren't. Check nature out carefully; she do love the old symmetry. 

[witch]

sorry, all the way through this topic, I keep remembering the old feminist bumper sticker, 'they sent one man to the moon, why not send them all?'.

 

[laeshanin]

My current favourite is "So many men... So many reasons to sleep alone."