Hurricane Katrina

[Judecat]

I blame the mother of the 8 kids too.  Over half my co workers where young, black,  single mother,  with baby's daddy nowhere to be found.  But they had one child,  or maybe 2,  they had gone to school or were still going to night school,  working as case work assistants,  or offcie clerks or data entry clerks,  in order to actually provide for the children they had.   And the men in the office who had children,  they may have not still been with the momma's,  but they were taking care of the kids.  Yeah a lot of the women had been on assistance,  but they managed -- which is why I wanna sma kmiss 8 kids and can't get child support cos daddy's 1 and 2 are in jail,  Daddies 3 and 4 are on drugs,  and no body knows where 5-8 went to.
The only reason I never needed assistance is cos I never had kids,  so when my husband left me I could was free as the breeze, not because I think I'm better than anyone. (Except maybe my ex sister in law with the 4 kids,  4 different exes who never worked a day in her life.)

[veilchen]

Well JM, unfortunately, the thread of starvation might spawn worse happenstances, such as crime, exploitation, neglect, substance abuse, prostitution, etc. What needs to be happening is to allow those women to access higher paid jobs with possibility of advancement. That means education, counseling, the works. It would also help if women would actually be paid comparable wages for comparable work, not .75 cents for every $ 1.00 a man makes for comparable work.

Apathy sets in when people feel hopeless and helpless; it is the number one killer of any motivation.

Go witch! Great accomplishments, you are one of the people who beat the odds, and beat them soundly. It would be wonderful if others could be motivated by your feats, seeing that it can, indeed, be done, and realizing that good and visible results are never instantaneous.

[Judecat]

     I don't where were they are getting the statistic of woman make 75 cents for ever dollar of a man in the same job,  because I have never had a job where the men with the same job and the same seniority have made more than me.  Since I got out of the Army I have never worked anywhere that my sex disqualified me for a certain job,  or interfered with a promotion.   I think they need to update the study,  or if it is a worldwide study break it down by country --because I really don't beleive those statistics are universal at this time.

   I think there is more appathy now than ever in the history of America.  I think that welfare is killing everybody's motivation to work.  Think I feel like getting a job and working 40 hours a week,  when at the end of the month my welfare queen  ex sister in law has just as much if not more money in her pocket as I do.   
   I also actually agree with JM,  because I think the crime rate was actually lower before people got used to the sense of entitlement.  My grandfather at the the turn of the 19th century was worse off than a lot of these people -- his father was dead,  his mother was sick and didn't speak english,  he never got a chance to go to past 3rd grade,  because as the oldest he had to take care of the family.  Did he steal Diamnons and Victola's -- no he ran errands for pennies,  picked up coal dropped from the trains to heat the house,  worked at the canning factory.  9 kids in that family -- not one of them a prostitute, junkie or criminal.   
 And prostitution has always been with us and always will,  welfare state or no.  poverty or no.  My birth mother was from a middle class white collar family,  and made her living as a call girl until she got too old to command the hight prices.   She also gave up all her children for adoption into middle class homes.

 

[SimsHost]

...Benefit system in US sounds similar - more you earnt, more penalties in loss of benefits. Financially better to stay home and vegetate than work or study...

That's one of my pet peeves about the public assistance system.  People are punished for trying to earn money on their own, so it turns into a trap.  It's the same for disability benefits.  It almost feels like somebody designed the whole thing to make sure that the needy stay needy.  Not good.

Even worse, the Department of Health and Human Services has to spend fantastic amounts of money administering this complex system, to the point that only 10% of the funds the department spends actually end up in the hands of the needy, and a minuscule bit goes into actually distributing the money.

I would guess (without really knowing) that graft and corruption consumes only a tiny portion of the other 90% of the department's budget.  The rest goes to pay for all the folks and facilities that are required to make sure somebody isn't trying to cheat the taxpayers.

I have my notions about how to fix it.  Basically, we could pay a minimum living stipend to everybody whether they need it or not, and raise taxes to balance it out; but that silly idea would never get past the legislature in any country that has popular elections.  It would offend conservatives because of the idea of Big Welfare and even higher taxes; it would offend liberals because it cuts them off from the opportunities for demogoguery that get them elected; and it would offend everybody because the idea of paying welfare benefits to rich folks really goes against the grain.

Nevertheless, I like the idea.  It puts needy folks on the same ground as Donald Trump and Bill Gates; no stigma associated with public assistance.  It eliminates the vast majority of the costs of administering the welfare system, so the increase in taxes might actually turn out to be a decrease after all the dust settles.  It provides a solid foundation for all us working stiffs who are one paycheck away from disaster.  Tying it to citizenship would eliminate problems with illegal immigration; it provides a very strong incentive to become a legal immigrant.  And it makes sure that the truly needy are taken care of.

[witch]

Well JM, unfortunately, the thread of starvation might spawn worse happenstances, such as crime, exploitation, neglect, substance abuse, prostitution, etc. What needs to be happening is to allow those women to access higher paid jobs with possibility of advancement. That means education, counseling, the works. It would also help if women would actually be paid comparable wages for comparable work, not .75 cents for every $ 1.00 a man makes for comparable work.

Apathy sets in when people feel hopeless and helpless; it is the number one killer of any motivation.

Thank you, I was working out ways to say some of this but nothing sounds as concise and clear as you make it here. In my volunteer years with Womens' Refuge and Rape Crisis, this is exactly what I saw and experienced. Powerlessness. No resources. Apathy - a kind of stasis.

The adult women students who attend out pathway and preparation courses often acquire life skills out of all proportion to expectation, in addition to their course content. You can visibly see them growing as individuals. Fascinating.

Go witch! Great accomplishments, you are one of the people who beat the odds, and beat them soundly. It would be wonderful if others could be motivated by your feats, seeing that it can, indeed, be done, and realizing that good and visible results are never instantaneous.

Thank you again. It was about finally taking responsibility for myself, no-one was ever going to come and save me, no white knights, no nothing. I lost 20 years to drink & drugs but I'm just grateful I have some brain left and can still learn. I'm 48 next birthday and have just started learning Java programming as I feel I might like a career change at some point. Ain't life grand?

[witch]

I have my notions about how to fix it.  Basically, we could pay a minimum living stipend to everybody whether they need it or not, and raise taxes to balance it out; but that silly idea would never get past the legislature in any country that has popular elections.  It would offend conservatives because of the idea of Big Welfare and even higher taxes; it would offend liberals because it cuts them off from the opportunities for demogoguery that get them elected; and it would offend everybody because the idea of paying welfare benefits to rich folks really goes against the grain.

I like the idea immediately because of course it would mean women at home looking after children, where they are not on a benefit, will be paid for the work they do. They (you know, they, the grey people) talked here a while back of having a universal benefit rate, for sickness, disability, solo parents, old age etc. Then individuals could appply for additional benefits as required eg medical or accomodation or children or whatever. The universal rate was supposed to be big enough to live on by itself. I thought that wasn't a bad idea but I never thought of applying it to everyone. I'll have to give this some consideration.

[Judecat]

"They"  are going to give everyone a stipend worth at least the cost of living?   Where are "They" gonna get the money to do this.   If "They" are gonna support me they why should I even get a job?. 

"Give everybody a living stipend whether they need it or not, then take any money they earned that they don't need?   I'll leave out the very rich here.  I'll use my mother in law,  my self and the last two posters to this thread and JM.

So if Dr Furth,  who makes $125 dollars an hour is gonna get a government stipend of the same amount as Jude,  and JM and witch and veilchen,  but then they are gonna take away most of her money so they can afford the others,  then why doesn't Dr Furth just retire.  After all the government is giving her enough to live on.  She can even sell her house and office and move to an apartment so she won't have taxes to pay next year.  Oh geeze mom,  you can't do that,  Me and the the others was counting on your taxes to pay our stipend next year.  Too bad,  guess "they" just have to cut the payments down a little.   Geeze looks like JM's gotta get a job to pay for more barbed wire.  OOPs.  JM we gotta take you your earnings to support Jude,  witch,  Veilchen and Dr Furth.  etc etc and so one and so one,  until everyone figures they don't wanna work to support everyone else,  there is no money in the budget for anybody.    Sounds to me like the last years of the Soviet Union to me.         I know very few people who are busting there butt for the sole reason of personal satisfaction.     So maybe it would work with another(alien)  race,  but I don't see socialism or communism working for human beings.

[ZephyrZodiac]

I'm sorry, but you have, to my mind, an odd idea of what communism or socialism is about.  It isn't about nobody working, but initially it was about everybody working, and everybody's job, from the dustman to the doctor, being of equal importance to society!  And they didn't have many stay-at-home mums in the Soviet Union, but they did have universal daycare!

In the last days of the Soviet Union, no doubt these ideals began to fall apart as the crooks took over, but that tends to be what happens when empires disintegrate!

[Judecat]

Any system that tries to equalize the wealth and to say that everyone is exactly equal is a dis- instentive to work.   Soviet Union collapsed in on itself,  and China is enforcing communism at gun point.  Under communism it isn't that everyone shares equally,  it's that everything is owned by the state.  So no matter what you do in life you will get no more than the government chooses to give you.

And I do think that every attempt to equalize wealth in this country has only succeeded in driving up prices and killing the middle class. (You raise my taxes for welfare and social security,  then I have less money to buy that cool car, and all the workers in the refrigerator factory feel the same way,  so we go on strike for higher wages,  which raises the price of refrigerators,  so then the iron works go on strike because now they need more money to buy a new refridgerator.   End result,  my husband can barely support a wife  person,  on 6 x's the income my father supported a family of 6.  Or the same house my mother bought for 8,000 dollars sold last year for $102,000)

I honestly can't say anything about Socialism,  because you are right I don't understand.   I'm not trying to be rude by this question,  I really want to know -- what exactly is the difference between socialism and welfare.
 (Not talking about socialized medicine,  I understand that -- but if the insurance industry hadn't driven up prices I don't think socialized medicine would be necessary-  only cost $30 dollars for a 4 day stay and a tonsilectomy when I was 4. Without insurance.  If you worked in some big factories you'd be able to buy insurance and then you only had to pay 5 for the hospital bill.  But the insurance company would only pay $15 more to keep costs down.  Of course this drove up the price of hospital stays.)

And I gotta say,  I much prefer discussing and debating with you all than in a lot of other groups online.  No one is calling anyone else a moron or nothing.  Exept JM that is.  I'd run and hide if he stopped insulting everyone.

[laeshanin]

Judecat, you're quite right in saying that Communism or Marxism doesn't work - just read George Orwell and you'll see why...people are greedy, and they always want more - whether that be power, goods, land or money. Those political systems are an ideology but ones that many very good ideas can be taken. Can the same thing be said of the extreme right, however? I personally have doubts if there is anything good about the extreme right, unless, of course, someone is an out and out bigot that feeds on prejudice.

Socialism is a system where by we get to make certain that the people at the bottom end of the social ladder are assisted, and that is the operative word - assistance. When I was destitute and homeless, there was never any occasion that I wanted to be nannied or taken care of. What choices I make are my own and I am the person that likes to make them about my life. I don't need some jumped up little beaurocrat to tell me how to live my life or what I have to do to improve it. I will, though, willingly pay in a small amount of money if it means that someone gets a better chance at life. Isn't that what some of my taxes are for (I'm a Brit, so things are slightly different)? Welfare and socialism are not synonymus. Welfare is a socialist idea, but it is not one that decides you shouldn't work, or help yourself.

Z.Z. says, quite rightly, that in Socialism all jobs are seen as equal. And they are, with the possible exception of those who act for a living, or sports people on phenomenal and obscene salaries. Without a dustman, society would be up shit ( ) creek good and proper. Just because the job is less glamorous than those mentioned previously does not make it less important. Some jobs are undervalued in the society we live in, and it is that which gives me a pain in the butt.

She has a point, too, that when the Soviet Union fell apart the people who leapt in to take over were the crooks, those super capitalists who want to screw everybody... even you comrade. And that is what I hate about modern capitalist societies.

[ZephyrZodiac]

And unfortunately, ever since Her Ladyship the great Maggie T said that "There is no such thing as society", we've been going down that same road where "I'm all right, Jack and the Devil take the hindmost" is the order of the day!  And anyone who tries to tell you that the Blair Government is any different, didn't live back when even the Tories cared about the Health Service!

[Judecat]

   Thank you for explaining.    I think that the basic idea behind welfare is also assistance,  but there seem to be many people who are content to have their hand out in this country.   That's why I'm a supporter of the welfare to work idea.    I think being in a capitalist country I missed the line where it stops being welfare and starts being assistance.

    One of the young men who refused to be evacuated from Katrina said he didn't want to go to a shelter cos there he would have to follow someone's rules and he didn't want to follow no rules.  I guess looking and stealing and living off your girlfriends welfare suited him better.  Because if you work you gotta follow rules,  and if you collect benefits there are supposed to be rules too.
   
   
  To those who think that communism is a good idea that only failed in the soviet union because of capitalist greed,  may I suggest you look at Viet nam today,  and you will see the reason that I think that communism is rotten to the core.   After 30 years of communism there is still no educational,  medical,food distribution   or sanitation infastructure.  Childreach (formerly know as the foster parent plan) is operating in Hanoi just like they are in other 3rd world countries.  What good does it do for all the workers to be equal when all off you are living in the dirt.  The workers are no better off than they were 30 years ago.  Hell back then even the Hanoi Hilton (POW camp) had plumbing.
   

[DuckSpeak]

Though definitly not saying that communism is a good thing, it has it's positives. East Asian countries have been and still are awfully negative about women's rights. In Imperial China this was to the degree where baby girls would be sold as slaves or abandoned to die. Even though Chairman Mao of communist China was a degenerate money worshipping bastard he had to stand up for his party to a certain extent and that included the doctrine that all people are equal. Now that China has gone back to capitalization the old trends are coming back, though obviously in a supressed manner. (Since you can only have one child, there's more sexism in baby gender preferance. Idiots, now China has TONS of bachelors.  )

The same goes with capitalism. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn who got written by the book First Circle gets pointed out by the fact that the trend in 1950's Russia is to call capitalism "big moneyism". (Haha, bad joke, obviously not as awesome as Pescado's original.  For in Soviet Russia book writes YOU, and fact points out YOU!) Capitalism is in essence "big moneyism", but that makes it sound so much worse. Just because a society "communizes" doesn't mean everyone gets 100% the same allowances.

Vietnam would probably have been no better off with Ngo Dinh Diem if it was subject to the same conditions as the Communists. After all, Diem was a ruthless religious fanatic as well as a corrupt bastard, while Ho Chi Minh was quite the more moderate of the communists:
Situation Reversed:
1) USA; a communist nation declares war on South Vietnam.
2) South Vietnam rallies on the anti-colonial spirit to defeat the Northern communists and the USA Army.
3) United Capitalistic/Oligarchial Vietnam starts killing all communists and continues to persecute Buddhists.
(This is the real problem, after a war the people are bound to be swept by hatred.)

(Just an interesting, albeit useless fact: North Korea has the purest language system on earth, as it is untainted by "foreign" influences and apart from using a alphabet, it is phonetic language which means you cannot spell it wrong unless you are a SHEEP! Not that it matters, sheep that TyPe lYk d1S are destroyed. Plus, it has one of the highest literacy rates in the world.)

Welfare is a gimped idea in that some people work out of nothing to build fortunes while others continue their repulsive journey down poverty. The full solution involves heavy mental tampering to blast into the heads of the people recieving welfare as well as their children that they MUST live a life of significance and conscience!  Putting all the political issues about it aside, did not Israel grow into a prosperous economy out of virtually nothing? Is not the kibbutz in essence a communistic/socialisitc organization? With the proper background socialism has worked and in FAR more awesome ways than the good ole USA with far more unfortunate geographies and histories. The Scandinavian countries are a shining example of that.

Canada is regarded as a moderate/democratic socialist country, as my teachers often attest.

[SJActress]

Someone may have posted this already, but I thought it would cheer some people up.  Well, at least MOST of us!

Cheers,
SJ

[DuckSpeak]

LOL, nice one. Though apparantly true... 

[Judecat]

This has nothing to really do with this discussion,  except greed is not limited to the poor.   And it is really pissing me off.

There are several people who have gathered in online community's to make what are called siggie tags -- like the one in my icon next to the post.   And a brand new version of one the most popular graphics programs used to make the things was just released.   Retail price for the upgrade $59 dollars.   Now remember the program hasn't even been released in Europe yet it's so new.

So last night a link sweeps through the siggie tag world -- Corell is offering a FREE full download of PSP X.  Thousands of housewives,  and others who do siggie tags as a hobbie downloaded this free download.  And then when it was pointed out that someone had bought a copy and passed around that link,  that Corel would not give away a brand new version and that they all left their finger prints in the cookie jar -- they are all now crying that it's not fair -- they can't afford the update.
Now obviously 99 percent of these people are not living in poverty.  They all have computers,  they all have the previous version of the program,  many of them are paying for licences for the right to use copyright art for their siggie tags,  and they are crying cos they didn't get a free program to make pretty pictures.  Crying because "everybody" has cracked programs so why can't they.    
These are not children.  And the program will do nothing to feed and clothe there family,  it's a hobby thing.
That's a picture of greed.

[kim]

Welfare is a gimped idea in that some people work out of nothing to build fortunes while others continue their repulsive journey down poverty. The full solution involves heavy mental tampering to blast into the heads of the people recieving welfare as well as their children that they MUST live a life of significance and conscience!

i could quote the whole thing but that's a lotta space, eh?  nice post.

simshost said something a few days ago about the flawed software in human brains.  we do need to debug the software, and a good beginning would be refining the definitions.

work is not an ethic, work is a basic human need.  everybody works, but some people work at draining the system, instead of building it.  not all the drainers are on the bottom.  i'd try to flesh that out better but i have to get rested now so i can rise early and go fight my personal, indirect, battle against some of the drainers.
oh, and work is supposed to be fun.  it's a perception thing.

and what judecat just said.

[DuckSpeak]

Human software used to be ok, that is until they used boolprop. Or was that woolprop, or poolbrop?

Sometimes, with my totally sadistic, deranged mind I want to see some of the caning that is done in Singapore to those who dare question the righteousness of the central government. (Well, in those quite obviously areas only, we don't want a dictatorship obviously.  ) Caning as in literally beating with a cane. When I see a beautiful park utterly massacred with litter, my blood boils. 

[Judecat]

I think you are right hon -- The human race got woolpropped.

(Hon is a non gender specific friendly address from middle aged Baltimore to everyone younger than senior citizen -- no insult or disrespect intended.  I got flamed for calling someone Hon this afternoon.)

[witch]

(Since you can only have one child, there's more sexism in baby gender preferance. Idiots, now China has TONS of bachelors.  )

Oddly enough, I've been thinking this about India as well, especially since pre-birth ultrasound - many female babies have been aborted in India. What happens next generation? So many males, so few females. Hopefully that would give females more power, though I read science fiction story which proposed the opposite - that women were guarded, precious and traded as a marketable commodity instead. Oh well, no change there then.

[DrBeast]

Hey there folks
I'm finally back from my prolonged, boring vacations, and since I finally have Internet access again I promptly checked to see if anyone at the forums I visit was struck by Katrina. I hope Reg is doing OK now, she did escape with her most valuable possession after all: her life.
Being a greek and living in Greece, I'm baffled at the least by what happened over there. The (supposedly) super-power of this planet failed to respond to a natural disaster that struck its home plains? The irony of it is overwhelming, but damn it, it's not ironic at all to the thousands that are suffering right now (the dead are devoid of emotions after all, it's the living that carry the burden of their loss). Just a few months ago, the greeks responded in a way that awed many to the tsunami disaster: the fund raising by us, the common citizens, was unparalleled in our history. Will we do the same now? I honestly don't know. Yes, there are people suffering again, but...in the USA?!? The "superpower"?! I'll be honest with you: we greeks don't harvest the warmest feelings about Bush and the U.S. government, but we still have hearts and feelings. I'm sure we'll do our part in helping a fellow human out. I just hope and pray your president has suffered a big enough blow to his ego that he'll sharpen up from now on and stop playing the Universal Cop.

[ZephyrZodiac]

(Since you can only have one child, there's more sexism in baby gender preferance. Idiots, now China has TONS of bachelors.  )

Oddly enough, I've been thinking this about India as well, especially since pre-birth ultrasound - many female babies have been aborted in India. What happens next generation? So many males, so few females. Hopefully that would give females more power, though I read science fiction story which proposed the opposite - that women were guarded, precious and traded as a marketable commodity instead. Oh well, no change there then.

It also possibly explains the numbers of young men being shipped out of their home countries illegally!   If their families can afford the thousands they pay to the people smugglers, it can't purely be for economic reasons that they do this, but if there aren't enough young women in their village to go round then too many young men are likely to get into trouble fighting over them!  Seems like these countries need to stamp down hard on any kind of gender selection, just as we do in the west - not just because it's sexist and immoral, but because it's also dangerous to stability! And maybe the law should be changed, so parents are allowed one son with no financial help, or two daughters with financial assistance for the second! (Just until the balance of the sexes has been normalised, anyway!)

[veilchen]

Wow, what a lot I had to read .

Judecat, unfortunately the income disparity is still very real. Just by 'googleing' it, you can come up with numerous articles about it, not to mention the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Let me state this so my intentions are entirely clear: I don't want better treatment for women, I want equal treatment. I am glad that you did not have to experience that, but sadly, the lower the income ladder, the more unbalanced the income.

Prostitution is legal where I come from, down to a Union and a Pension Plan, although pimping is not. A very sensible attitude, it decriminalizes the women and gives them the power to deal with those who wish to exploit them. If the profession (after all, the worlds oldest) is freely chosen, fine, it is after all a demand driven profession. If it is chosen because of dire circumstances, threats, intimidation, or to pay for substances the prostitute is addicted to, that is completely different. Whatever you do in your life should at least give you some personal satisfaction, it should be something you want to do, not something you have to do. Many are in this unenviable position, with almost no way out.

I know all about Baltimore and 'Hon". I almost laughed myself silly when I was driving down the parkway (Gladys Spencer Highway?) and saw the sign: "Welcome to Baltimore, Hon." That can't be beat.

The sad thing is that women are more than capable of holding their own intellectually, if only they were empowered to do so. If you read the statistics (here I go again with the statistics), the more educated the women of a country are, the lower the birth-rate, female poverty, and many other ills plagueing the human race. Note: I am not a man-hating 'fem-nazi'; I like men, I go out with men, I value everyones friendship, regardless of gender. All I want is equal treatment, I don't want anything taken away from the male population, I want women to catch up.

[ZephyrZodiac]

The interessting thing is, the human race is in a position now where it could virtually do without men, apart from keeping a few super-studs and those with high quality genes!  It hasn't yet reached the stage where it could do without women!

[DuckSpeak]

(Since you can only have one child, there's more sexism in baby gender preferance. Idiots, now China has TONS of bachelors.  )

Oddly enough, I've been thinking this about India as well, especially since pre-birth ultrasound - many female babies have been aborted in India. What happens next generation? So many males, so few females. Hopefully that would give females more power, though I read science fiction story which proposed the opposite - that women were guarded, precious and traded as a marketable commodity instead. Oh well, no change there then.

That reminds me, there are actually countries in which 50% of marriages result from abductions/kidnappings - I believe this was Kirghystan. Absolutely disgusting.

ZZ I definitly have to agree with you there, affirmative action is a good thing to have.  The illegal "shipping" happens the other way too, rich Chinese, etc can "import" women from the poorer South-Asian countries.

Canadians don't use "Hon" very much but flaming for it is just silly, just look at the tone of the word. Actually where I used to live long time ago there was a word quite similar so I can relate - though in that case it wouldn't make sense in "Welcome to Baltimore, Hon." I would have thought it was a joke.