Hurricane Katrina

[ZephyrZodiac]

Well, obviously, if help had arrived sooner, then they'd have been got out by now, and maybe they wouldn't have lost all their family too.  I must admit, I think this is a case where the troops going in to sort things out should be using rubber bullets if they have to shoot at all!

[veilchen]

Well Stormy, as far as I can discern from the history lessons I received from Reg, at the time New Orleans was build, it was nowhere near this close to water as it is now. The sea has been coming closer and closer due to erosions of the coast-lines; it's almost the same as the cities in the Netherlands that are build below sea-level. The disappearance of the wetlands/marshes contribute to the encroachment of the sea, they are natural water-absorbers.

The Southers sea-ports are a major hub for commerce, that's another reason the hurricane had such a devastating effect. Even to the rest of the US and its spilling over into Europe as well, mainly with the price of raw/crude oil. Reg, if I understood you wrong, feel free to correct me. I swear I was paying attention to you, don't I always?

[ZephyrZodiac]

Veilchen, I'm sure you were.  It's exactly the same problem that Venice is suffering, since when it was built the sea-level was lower, but the Mediterranean generally doesn't get such extremes of weather as the Caribbean, so although Venetians get flooding every winter, it's usually within their ability to cope.

The cities in the Netherlands, of course, have very good defences, but with the rise in levels in the North Sea, I don't know how long that will last!

[J. M. Pescado]

It's never too late to start constructing those pressure domes, for when things eventually sink into the sea. Remember: The average elevation of the Earth is below sea level. Erosion will inevitably sink everything into the sea. If this is at risk for happening near your lifetime, start building a pressure dome.

[ZephyrZodiac]

Or do what the Dutch did and reclaim the land!  If it worked once, there's no reason why it shouldn't work again.  Of course, it means someone else gets the water you should have had!

[Bane~Child]

There is an approach that the heads of the major families that run all the businesses in Japan use:
Rather than say, 'Who can we blame?'...Ask, 'What can we do to fix this problem?', and then they do it.  In their thinking, ultimely everyone is resposible in some way, if not equally.  Each worker from the janitor up takes responsibility very seriouosly and it is the very fabric of corporate life in Japan.  This is so much more civilized and so simple an approach, I can't help but admire the wisdom and wish more would follow this type of example.

[ZephyrZodiac]

And let's face it, the Japanese have been living with disasters for a very long time!  And far less people died living in traditional Japanese paper houses than have died in recent years in concrete tower blocks!

[Jarsie]

I have no sympathy for the looters, and those of us who live on the Gulf Coast and are somewhat familiar with New Orleans shouldn't really be surprised. New Orleans has long been known as a corrupt city from all levels of government, and at one time was known as the murder capital of the world. It specializes in black-on-black crime. And it doesn't help any when the local government initially ignored the looters because it had other priorities and was short handed due to the fact that a large number of its police force left the city and many resigned outright.

As for the blame game, it's very easy to blame the federal government, and ignore the fact that the feds have to respect state rights; they just can't go marching into a state and take over. The governor of the state has to *ask* for federal intervention. President Bush declared the gulf coast states a national disaster area even before the hurricane made landfall...federal aid was ready to go as soon as the Governor of Louisiana requested it...which she didn't do until days after Katrina made landfall. Blame the POTUS all you want; the fact of the matter is he was within the law not to send federal troops rushing into Louisiana until he was asked to do so by the State.

What took so long? Governor Blanco, not picking up the phone and giving permission for the Federal government to step in and take over before the hurricane hit. And Mayor Nagin not putting in place the evacuation plan that had been agreed upon years before. What did you people expect, a major air lift? Get real.

Yes, it's counterproductive to point fingers and assign blame. Unfortunately, there are some extremist elements of the party I was once proud to call my own who have no compunction about using this opportunity of human suffering for political gain, and all because they're under the illusion that this will get them back into the White House in 2008. I have a feeling that when the smoke clears, and the lawsuits start coming at the state and local level, there will be quite a few revelations.

By the way, I live in Houston, TX and we have had our share of hurricanes, so I speak from experience. We were ready for the evacuees from Louisianna long before the storm hit. Churches and private organizations, as well as the city of Houston were mobilized early on. If the city of New Orleans had done likewise, the loss of life might have been less. If the Governor of Louisiana had asked for federal intervention in a timely fashion...who knows how many lives would have been saved?

I am happy that Regikko is safe and that her home is relatively speaking, okay. I pray for those victims of the hurricane, and I grieve with the bereaved. I hope that when all the dust is settled and all is said and done, New Orleans will be better prepared for the next major hurricane that comes its way.

After all...here in the Gulf Coast region, it's still hurricane season until November...and if Katrina had been just 5 degrees west...Houston might very well have gotten it instead of New Orleans.

But then again...we Houstonians are pretty experienced with major hurricanes.

[J. M. Pescado]

And let's face it, the Japanese have been living with disasters for a very long time!  And far less people died living in traditional Japanese paper houses than have died in recent years in concrete tower blocks!

There's something to be said for cheapness and expendability, too. If a paper house collapses on somebody, it won't kill them. The problem here is when people try to find some kind of middle ground, which, as we all know, tends to produce a solution that satisfies neither condition. If you live in a cardboard box, you won't have much to worry about from most disasters, either.

[ZephyrZodiac]

Keep an old tin bath in the outhouse, and you've something to keep you afloat till the water levels drop!

On a more serious note, it seems odd that the US Federal government could go into Afghanistan and Iraq without permission from their Governments (ostensibly to sort out life-threatening situations) but couldn't override a state government in the US itself!  Surely, to prevent this kind of thing ever happening again, there needs to be a rider added to the constitution to allow a takeover by the state if a local government is not handling a situation?  What, in fact, would have been the case had the state government actually been wiped out by the disaster, and there was no government to make the decision to ask for assistance?

[laeshanin]

I have pondered on the wisdom of building great blocks of concrete, glass and metal in any area that's known for natural disasters, as it seems to me to be a little counterproductive and a tad blinkered. San Fransisco built on a major fault which WILL blow, it's just a matter of when, for example. You have a house in the middle of hurricane country and you've got to be aware of the hazards. Surely? It's like building on flood plain...Don't!

Oh, and who says there no evidence for global warming?

[ZephyrZodiac]

The wonderful president who has refused to sign up to a worldwide treaty!

[laeshanin]

Ah, Mr. "I-have-no-relevant-thoughts-of-my-own" Bush, mayhap? *Ducks in readiness for flaming*

[ZephyrZodiac]

Well, he's the only president you've got at the moment, I believe!  Comes of voting in a son of an already discredited father!  Like father, like son I say, and if father is a twit, then is it likely the son won't be?

[Renatus]

You have a house in the middle of hurricane country and you've got to be aware of the hazards. Surely? It's like building on flood plain...Don't!

There's a problem with the whole "Don't build in an area that can have natural disasters" line of thought - it pretty much excludes most of the planet.

Taking the USA alone - in the Pacific Northwest there is more than one active volcano - St. Helens is obviously active, Rainier is due to blow, as is Hood... the coastline of the area is also at risk for tsunamis. Hawaii pretty much is volcanos. There's also a caldera sitting just a bit to the side of the midwest due to go 'splody. We all know that California is rife with fault lines, but don't think you're safe if you're on the other side of the country - the New Madrid fault is due for a nasty quake. Tornadoes go all through the middle of the country, go north and you get blizzards, the east coast - well, if the ice caps go, there it goes -

I could go on, but instead, have a map. Of course we're all screwed if a meteor hits, as one does every so often (more often than we'd like to think, really). Even pressure domes won't save you if the ground blows up underneath you, and it's unknown if our technology level is good enough to make a pressure dome that could resist an ice age. Build under the sea - more volcanoes and fault lines.

Doesn't geology just fill you with hope? It does me!

[Jarsie]

Now I know why I'll never vote Democrat again.

The finger pointing could have waited until after everything was over...not during it.

It's funny....some people are swift to say that the present United States government is a dictatorship...and then get angry because it doesn't act like it.

Now, I can't help but wonder if the press would be so likely to give the Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans a pass if both had been Republican instead of Democrat?

Oh well....I won't get into this argument with you folks, but really...the politicizing by both the press and the extremist Democrats could have waited until long after the fact.

Oh, and lest we forget...about going into Afghanistan and Iraq...that didn't happen over night. That took months and months of planning. And ignoring how long it took the Feds to get aid to the victims of Hurricane Andrew (what was it, something like 4-6 days?) and other hurricanes doesn't change the fact that even when the State government is responsible, it's still going to take the Feds time to set up shop. And I do believe that little brother Bush was governor of Florida then.

But then, I suppose it's easier to ignore the facts when Uncle Sugar is run by the Great Satan Bush instead of John "French Poodle" Kerry. One wonders how President Kerry would have fared in such a situation. Would he have ignored the Constitution and federal and state laws and gone in willy nilly to save the day? We'll never know. But I'm sure that whatever he did...in the eyes of the media and the rest of the world...it would have been golden.

Oh, and by the way...where is the UN in all of this? Isn't this natural disaster of sufficient magnitude for them to rush to our aid? Oh, but then I forgot...they haven't got any money to spare. They can only give us their sympathy.

[kim]

On a more serious note, it seems odd that the US Federal government could go into Afghanistan and Iraq without permission from their Governments (ostensibly to sort out life-threatening situations) but couldn't override a state government in the US itself! 

and thanks zz for answering the query about global warning denial. 
state of emergency declaration by gov blanco was august 26.  request from governor for federal  state of emergency was august 28.  even without that request, federal intervention was pretty much a mandate immediate post-event, per the national response plan of december 2004.  anyone cares can find it on the dept of  homeland ssecurity site at dhs.gov. 
beyond that, and the negligence on levee maintenance (and other corps of engineers responsibilities, nationwide), the flooding probability should have had a specific response plan.  not the same as but similar to the plan for responding to a terrorist attack on the levees.  oh, right. we don't have one of those either.   maybe if we had competent leadership in the department?   above the department?

[reggikko]

I'll be heading home today, folks. I may be incommunicado until my cable internet is up and running. So, for those who would wonder, don't worry if you don't hear from me for a while.

[ZephyrZodiac]

Good luck, Reg!  Hope things aren't too much of a problem to sort out!

[rhodaloo]

We're begining to get displaced families in our little N. TX town.  Today one of the kids enrolled at the school I was working.  She said her family decided to leave two days before the hurricane hit.  They were planning on riding out the storm until the police told the father, "If you don't leave now, I'm afraid you'll be carrrying out those kids in body bags."  She said they think their house is under 12-20 feet of water (east of New Orleans).

[ZephyrZodiac]

Well, it's good to hear they got out safely and the kids are going to school - one little bit of normality for them.

[Bane~Child]

That reminds me, I need a dungeon.

I found a methane powered boiler for your dungeon and a rusty old grate for a breathin' hole.


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[Diala]

Now, I can't help but wonder if the press would be so likely to give the Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans a pass if both had been Republican instead of Democrat?

...

But then, I suppose it's easier to ignore the facts when Uncle Sugar is run by the Great Satan Bush instead of John "French Poodle" Kerry. One wonders how President Kerry would have fared in such a situation. Would he have ignored the Constitution and federal and state laws and gone in willy nilly to save the day? We'll never know. But I'm sure that whatever he did...in the eyes of the media and the rest of the world...it would have been golden.

Ha ha ha. You people crack me up, both Democrat and Republican. You both act like victims if your side gets attacked.

I am sure John Kerry (nice French attack there, BTW. Very predictable.) would have been in just as much fire as Bush was. I am sure Republicans would've been more than happy to attack Kerry and use it to honor the Bushes, Reagan, and others. "If BUSH was in this position, blah blah blah would've happened, because Bush isn't lazy, unlike you slobbering Democrats!" Judging by your comments, I am sure you'll be amongst the blamers.

Political stubbornness is what is wrong with this country. Liberals vs. conservatives, Democrats vs. Republicans... and both of you are unwilling to make compromises, or at least let the other side speak. And the fact that this disgusting behavior is brought in during a time of crisis is heartbreaking.

I don't like the fact that the Democrats are accusing Bush altomatically. I think this all needs to be examined by non-partisan people before we start yelling and blaming. I think both sides are going to be seen as guilty, though. However, this is no time to start acting like victims or to start pointing fingers. We should help people, then poltical bitch later. After all, whining about Bush is not going to help the people of New Orleans one damn bit.

[Bane~Child]

We're begining to get displaced families in our little N. TX town.  Today one of the kids enrolled at the school I was working.

Yes, I live in the Metroplex and we are expecting another 1,000 tonight.  My husband is on call and working for both our Presbytery's local response team and for FEMA through the City's EOC.  What is very much needed for the displaced families in shelters everywhere are Kits for Personal Hygiene and Activity for the children.  Our church's General Assembly in Louisville, Kentucky has given a list and instructions on what to include.  They can be sent to the receiving warehouse in Houston (address given), taken to the shelters themselves or given to the Red Cross.

Here is a link for what to package in the Kits:  http://www.pcusa.org/pda/tools/shelterhealthkit.htm

It was also suggested that if you wish to do so, you may include a letter or card to help brighten their outlook; even drawings from your children are welcome.  These are small things and though they do not seem like much, every item is desperately needed and very much appreciated by both the displaced families and the volunteers.

[Bane~Child]

Keep an old tin bath in the outhouse, and you've something to keep you afloat till the water levels drop!

My mother is English and she and my sister lived on the northeast shore near Heacham 1953 when 'The Great Flood' came through the Wash from Holland.  They retreated to the second of their home and my mother opened the window to take some pictures.  A wave hit the window and her and she said among the seaweed and other debris there were fish flopping around on the floor.  A large boat winch had been pushrd from it's moorings by the wall of water and had wedged itself in the stone wall at the front corner their living room.  She said it took three more winches just to dislodge the huge metal mass from the wall.   In the pub, the guys were playing darts while sitting in row boats.  They celebrated the 50th anniversary of the flood and the completion of their shoreline construction for the flood prevention program.