New machine, Video Card question

[Millikat]

I am in the midst of having a new machine built. Our IT guy from work is building it for me and based on the info I have given him, has suggessted the NVIDIA GeForce 6600GT. He has also suggested an alternative, the GeForce 7800.
I checked out the system specs for OFB and it lists the 6600 as compatible, but none of the GeForce 7 series is listed at all.
Does anyone have either of these cards or have any suggestions for me?

Thanks!

[Ness]

I have the 6600 and love it to death!

There is a couple of threads around where it was discussed when I was getting this new computer, I'll see if I can dig them up...

Found it!

[Millikat]

Thanks Ness, I'll check it out!

[DrBeast]

I was about to state my opinion in this thread, but after reading the thread Ness links you to, I decided not to. I said it all there! Damn, I was THIS close to convincing you to get an ATi, mrs. ness! Oh well, another person...
(hides the bribe money from ATi)

[Ness]

If the ATI was cheaper, we'd have gone that way.  I've got no quibbles at all with the 6600 - works perfectly, high settings the whole way.

I think there was another thread - I just didn't manage to find it.

[DrBeast]

There was quite a number of threads about the issue, I had posted links to some in the thread you're refering to.

[Millikat]

I just checked out your thread Ness, as well as some others that were linked in that thread.

Aside from your comments on the 6600 (which were promising), everyone else seems to have had nothing but problems with NVIDIA cards and now I dont know what to do!

I currently have an ATI Radeon 9000 in my current machine (it's pretty old now), and I have never had any issues whatsoever with The Sims 2 or any of the expansions.(Having said that though I had trouble playing Morrowind, random crashes and so forth).

I have never had a NVIDIA card before and asked my IT guy what he reccommended and why and his repsonse was:

"Would definately go with NVidia. Dual cards are called SLI cards, you
can put two of them together and bingo double the bang for your games. ATI
needs a mastercard to do the same thing. Master cards are very expensive. You
could buy two Nvidia cards for the price of one and get a better and faster
setup. You are looking at around $500 for a decent SLI card minimum if you want
to run big games."

I wanted my machine to be as upgradable as possible for the future and therefore the system specs so far are:

CPU:    AMD X2 939 64
MB:      Gigabyte K8N Pro SLI
RAM:    1024MB Kingston DDR PC3200
HD:       200GB Seagate SATA II
VGA:    128MB Gigabyte 6600GT TD PCI E

Ness, what are your other system specs? And what drivers are you using with your 6600? Have you had to change your drivers at all?

Also, anyone else out there with a GeForce Series 7 card? As that was another option I was looking at.

[Ness]

pentium 4, 3G processor, 1G dual channel DDR 400 RAM, 120G SATA hard drive, Asus P5GD1 Pro motherboard.

we're using the Nvidia factory drivers - the ones that shipped with the card. Dxdiag shows the version number to be 6.14.0010.7772.

I've had no issues at all - everything worked first time straight out of the box.  Hook is also using the 6600 card, almost identical machine to mine - when we first loaded the game we both sat and boggled at the details and textures we'd not noticed before.

I've got to admit that I was extremely nervous about getting the 6600, but Mr Ness insisted - he's got a slightlier beefier computer than mine but with the exact same graphics card and he's had no issues with his games (pretty much all FPS).  I'd heard such awful things about Nvidia, I really wanted to stick with ATI, but the ATI card that was recommended to us was much more expensive.  Now that I've got the card up and running, I don't regret it for a second - I had jaggies in the early days with my old ATI card (back in the days of uni when it could still run at the highest settings), and have had nothing at all to complain about with thise one.

[Millikat]

Thanks Ness, I'm going to email my IT guy back with this info and my concerns and see what he says.

[DrBeast]

First of all, the "ATi mastercards are very expensive" is bull, 100% raw, unrefined BULL! All the other stuff he said about SLi is mostly correct, but still, the guy seems hell-bent on getting you an nVidia card. It seems problems are beginning to fade with OFB in the picture (with regards to nVidia cards that is), and, well, though I prefer ATis over nVidias I'd still say go for it. The 7xxx series is new, that's probably why it wasn't in the game specs. They're obviously better than 6xxx series cards, but I don't know about compatibility issues with The Sims.

[Giggy]

No no nope no way should you ever get Nvidia GeForce 6600GT. Trust me I have it and it sucks like hell! makes my game lock up and reboot itself. I cant update the drivers as I would get triangle holes all around the game and triangles sticking out of sims and objects.
if there is a fix for this please post me

[DrBeast]

Follow the link provided by ness in her first post and then the links provided by me in that thread.

[JenW]

I have the 6600 non-GT card and have been happy with it (the GT version is a step up, so even better than what I have). In addition to punching up the graphics I noticed I could move around the lot much faster after installing it. My previous card was also Nvidea (5200 I think?) and caused me no problems either. My husband prefers NVidea over ATI, though at the moment I can't remember why. Not being familiar with that sort of thing, I went with his recommendations and have been pleased. I have nice graphics and run everything on high with no problems.

[KellyQ]

I have the nVidea 5200 on my computer at home and the nVidea 6800 on my computer at work, I think they both work really well. The only difference I notice is that the work computer is slightly faster w/crisper graphics when playing TS2 then the home computer (yes, I get to play at work; shameful, isn't it?). The work computer also has a 3.0 processor as oppossed to the one at home which only has a 2.1, so I would imagine that helps out some of the "lag" I experience playing larger lots on my home computer. Obviously I am not a "tech" type of person but I thought I'd throw my own personal experience out there.

[Hegelian]

I posted some thoughts in the other thread:
http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php?topic=3850.msg118068#msg118068

The nVidia SLI is a new incarnation of 3dfx's old SLI (scan line interweave) with a new name ("Scalable Link Interface") to make it look like new technology, but except for general advances in video technology, the only real difference is that the nVidia boards use an internal connector, while the 3dfx cards used an external connector and VGA "pass-through" (the VGA signal passed through the 3dfx stand-alone boards when you weren't playing a Glide game). SLI on 3dfx products became obsolete once 3dfx started producing full-featured video cards instead of dedicated 3D boards. For increased performance, 3dfx began mounting multiple GPUs on a single video board and doing the SLI "on board."

"Bingo—double the bang for your games." Well, first of all, the performance increase is not 100%, more like 40-60% depending on the boards and the particular game. For example, in a recent test of nVidia boards by Tom's Hardware, a Gigabyte GeForce 6600 GT Silentpipe II gave a framerate in Quake 4 of 28.4 fps in single mode, and 48.5 fps in SLI mode (+58%); while an Asus GeForce 7800 GT Extreme gave framerates of 66.9 fps in single mode and 102.1 fps in SLI mode (+65%). The Quake games are OpenGL games; the Direct 3D game F.E.A.R., the Asus 7800 GT gave framerates of 33 fps in single mode and 47 fps in SLI mode (70%).

Secondly, "You are looking at around $500 for a decent SLI card minimum if you want to run big games"—that's 500 USD for one card! And he neglected to mention the motherboard needed to run SLI. He also neglected to mention the additional noise from the second GPU fan and the additional heat running a second video card would generate. So in addition to a new motherboard, you might also need a new case with better ventilation and more fans. Sorry to say, but this guy sounds like an nVidia "fanboy" from the days when the 3dfx vs. nVidia wars raged on Usenet.

The cost of SLI used to be prohibitive, since it was only available on the top-of-the-line cards, but you can now get in with a budget card, the GeForce 6600LE (~75 USD). On the other hand, you need an SLI-enabled motherboard with two PCI-E 16 slots, RAM modules that will work on the motherboard, and a power supply that will run the motherboard, both video cards, and the rest of the PC—450W minimum, and that's real watts, not the nominal output of cheap power supplies; expect to pay at least $100 for a decent power supply. If you're running an Intel CPU, you may need a new AMD CPU as well, since so far most if not all SLI motherboards use nVidia's Athlon-based GeForce chipsets.

The question becomes, are two 100 USD video cards strapped together a better deal than a single, higher-performance 200 USD card (or a $400-500 card if you need to replace the motherboard, RAM, and power supply in order to run SLI)? For most people whose hobby is not building/tweaking high-end gaming PCs, the answer is probably "no."

On the ATi side, since ver. 5.11, the Catalyst drivers have eliminated the need for a Crossfire "Master" card. The Radeon X1300 is Crossfire-compatible, at about 75 USD for the 256 MB version, or 100 USD for the 512 MB version, although according to Tom's Hardware, "this generation of card supports Pixel Shader 3 and HDR rendering with simultaneous anti-aliasing. Nonetheless, GPU and memory are too slow for today's complex 3D games. Thanks to its passive cooling solution, the card is ideally suited for a DVR or an office PC."

Currently, the sweet spot for AGP cards for folks on a budget appears to be the ATi Radeon X800 GTO w/256 MB of DDR3 video RAM; the Sapphire version is about 175 USD from Newegg.

References:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/09/seven_of_nvidia/
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/05/08/2006_graphics_card_buyers_guide_part1/

[Stitches]

I ran TS2 on a 7800 for several weeks before I had the money to buy a second card. Now that the 7800s are in SLi config, I don't notice much difference for TS2. The game wasn't written to take advantage of it. I get major boosts in games like Oblivion and Doom 3, which were written with dual cards in mind.

I prefer nVidia to SLi based on personal experience. My ATi cards always overheated, no matter what cooling configuration we rigged up. It was frustrating to play for an hour and then crash. I'd put a similar power nVidia card in the same rig and it wouldn't reach the same high temps and wouldn't crash. Yay. However, it's undeniable that nVidia has certain flaws. They don't render 3-D as well as ATi, and the drivers are sometimes a bit buggy. That can usually be repaired by rolling back to a stable one.

[Millikat]

Thanks everyone! I have emailed my IT Guy and am waiting on his reply.

Also, just for the record I'm in Australia so it's $500 Australian that he was quoting in reference to the SLI Card.

I'll see what he gets back to me with. It's so confusing trying to decide between ATI and NVIDIA. With my current machine (with the ATI Radeon 9000), I had no choice as to what card I got as it was built for me well before I had any idea whatsoever about decent cards or machine specs. Somehow it was much easier then!

[Hegelian]

Also, just for the record I'm in Australia so it's $500 Australian that he was quoting in reference to the SLI Card.

At the current exchange rate, that's 385 USD, still a big chunk of change. In the U.S., that will get you an ATi Radeon X1800XT with 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 RAM; 400 USD will buy an eVGA Geforce 7900GT Signature Series board with 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 RAM. (Note the difference in the quantity of memory. At least at Newegg, there is only one GeForce board with 512 MB video RAM in the 300-400 USD range, compared to several Radeon boards from several different vendors.)

I'll see what he gets back to me with. It's so confusing trying to decide between ATI and NVIDIA. With my current machine (with the ATI Radeon 9000), I had no choice as to what card I got as it was built for me well before I had any idea whatsoever about decent cards or machine specs. Somehow it was much easier then!

A few years back ATi went through a period of focusing on the budget and OEM markets, and "2D" image quality (that is, Windows) was terrible. But with the Radeon line they recommitted to the high end, and the two Radeon boards I have used both have 2D quality that rivals the best (i.e., Matrox). Since most of my computer use is not for gaming, "regular" 2D image quality is essential and I'm pretty picky in that regard. I've been completely satisfied with the two Radeon boards I have (9800 Pro and X800 GT) despite the stupid "Radeon" name.   

[Millikat]

Ok, my IT guy got back to me with some ATI Radeon options as follows:

256mb X1600XT card  OR
X800 card

Anyone out there with either of these cards? I think I'm leaning towards ATI

[Simlover]

I have the GEForce 6200 and it hasn't given me an ounce of trouble.  I still use the 78.1 drivers and I bought it roughly around 6 months ago and paid under $100 Australian, delivered to my door.

[astraled]

I'm using a 7900GT and I love it  .  My 6600GT worked great until OFB and then it locked up and died (while I was playing Civ IV in a thunder storm, I must mention in all fairness ). I'd bump up to at least the new 7600.

I seem to remember reading that the sims2 can't take advantage of the dual cards but I don't remember where . Something about it being more CPU driven than GPU.

[Hegelian]

Ok, my IT guy got back to me with some ATI Radeon options as follows:

256mb X1600XT card  OR X800 card

Anyone out there with either of these cards? I think I'm leaning towards ATI

There are several varieties of X800 board, ranging from  8-pipeline versions with 128 MB RAM to 12-pipeline versions with 512MB, plus an All-In-Wonder version; prices range from around 100 USD for the low-end models to 290 USD for the All-In-Wonder version. I have a 256 MB X800GT from Sapphire which was about 170 USD when I bought it, but these 8-pipeline models are down around 110 USD now. The new board at the 170 USD mark is the X800 GTO, which while nominally a 12-pipeline model, is reportedly shipping with all 16 pipelines enabled (the ATi Tools utility is reportedly showing current units from Sapphire using the R480 core rather than the specified R430 core). The X800 GTO comes in versions with one analog and one digital output, or two digital outputs. OTOH, the Sapphire Radeon X850 XT is around the same price these days, and sits higher up the ATi performance chain. One recent customer at Newegg claims it is "More powerful than anything NVIDIA has for under 300" USD.

I've been running an X800 GT as as replacement for a Radeon 9800 Pro, and there is a noticeable improvement. I think at this point, the lag I experience in my game sometimes is due to the CPU. The "2D" Windows image is excellent and TS2 looks great. The X800 GTO should be a better performer with the extra pipelines, whether it be 12 or 16, but the X850 XT would probably be a better choice at the same price point.

Versions of the X1600 XT that I'm finding in the 150-USD range have only a 128-bit memory interface, which is not ideal. Although I haven't done exhaustive research, either of the two X800 cards discussed above would probably perform a little better for a few dollars more than the X1600 XT.

[Millikat]

After much indecisiveness, I have finally made a decision. Completely out of left field and defying all previous logic, I am going with the 7900GT.  Whilst I will no doubt find a million reasons as to why I shouldnt have gone with the 7900GT (or perhaps nVidia all together), I decided if I do have problems, I'll deal with it then.

Thanks to everyone for your help and suggestions, particularly Hegalian. Despite the fact that I have actually gone against your advice Hegalian, I appreciate your info anyway.

[Hegelian]

As long as you find a driver version that doesn't cause you problems, you'll probably be quite happy with your choice. Report back with your impressions of the image quality in "2D"—the mainstream hardware reviewers don't ever mention this anymore, focusing solely on 3D performance and appearance.   

[Millikat]

Will do.
I take delivery of the new machine on the 25th May so I'll be sure to keep you posted.