Squinge found something interesting...

[Ellatrue]

You really really need to evaluate your feelings on this issue and find out where its coming from. Because seeing this kind of mysogyny and ignorance on this forum is "gross."

No. Feeding a baby is fine, breastfeeding is fine, breastfeeding in public without at least a blanket or something is RUDE. It has nothing to do with being "mysogynistic" or whatever (wouldn't that make me hate myself?), or supporting offensive ads or all those other things you threw at me that are completely beside the point. Thinking that breastfeeding is important does not excuse the rudeness.

[Jelenedra]

Yeah, breast feeding is important, but mother's that flash their nipples at an entire room to do so, aren't doing it for the benefit of their child, they're doing it because they're into exhibitionism. I know *I* wouldn't be comfortable stripping to feed my baby in public. That's what pumps are for. You pump at home and then you can feed your baby breast milk in public without exposing yourself to the world.

[Larxene]

 It's definitely disturbing to think a parent has to hide to feed her child, isn't it?

No. It's polite. Quite frankly, it looks gross, and no one should have to see it in public. It really irritates me, anyway. I mean, being discreetly covered is one thing, but some women just let it all hang out... YUCK
[/quote]

Common sense at last. Thank you.

[pearlbh]

No. Feeding a baby is fine, breastfeeding is fine, breastfeeding in public without at least a blanket or something is RUDE.

That's your opinion, and it's not shared by everyone.  I see nothing rude about feeding a child in public, in fact I'd far rather sit in a restaurant near a woman breastfeeding a baby than some toddler in a high chair with food smeared all over their face.  THAT is disgusting, and a majority of parents will just let it be that way and not bother to wipe their face, in fact some adults encourage this sort of sloppy child eat because they think it's cute or something.  But a woman with a baby latched onto one nipple and maybe the other nipple (gasp!) exposed too, gosh that's just GROSS.

And as for pumps and feeding breastmilk in bottles, oh if ONLY it was that simple.  Pumps don't necessarily work right, or at all.  You know, maybe it isn't fair to say this, but I think that only women who've had a child and been through the breastmilk vs. formula decision have any right to even HAVE an opinion on this topic.  You just don't know unless you've been there, and I've been on both sides (which my Sims kids will too.  They will be breastfed when it's covenient for mom but when it's not dad and others will  feed them formula from a bottle, and they will still get A+ grades and always age transition platinum and have fabulous lives, just like my son.  So there!)   

[Larxene]

No. It's polite. Quite frankly, it looks gross, and no one should have to see it in public. It really irritates me, anyway. I mean, being discreetly covered is one thing, but some women just let it all hang out... YUCK

Does this mean that next time I see an adult letting all their food hang out of their mouth in a restaurant, I can tell them to put a blanket over their head or take it to the bathroom? 

Does it gross you out? Make you uncomfortable? Do you find it rude? Do you think the person is inconsiderate to not show any manners or respect for other human beings? Would you be bothered enough to not want to sit next to them or have them near your food?

When I'm in my own house I eat with my fingers, belch and fart all I want and do other natural human body things that others may find gross but to be polite in public, I don't do any of them or if I must, I go somewhere where others don't have to watch  =p

And before it gets said again.. I DO SUPPORT BREASTFEEDING, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BREASTFEEDING, IF YOU FEEL YOUR CHILD WOULD BENEFIT THEN BREASTFEED..

But for Christ's sake, have consideration for the rest of the world. I have been in places where women just flopped their boobs out in public, once right next to a salad bar where the food could have easily been contaminated by milk or projectile baby milk puke and in full view of about 6 or 7 tables and anyone who went to the salad bar. I've seen women ignore lovely breastfeeding lounges provided just for that function so they can feed right in the middle of the food court or the shoe department like they want people to pay attention to a very private mother/child bonding moment and stroke their egos. My mother is VERY pro-breastfeeding and even she agrees this "anytime, anywhere" stuff is silly. She has told me that it's quite easy to arrange a quick trip out before the baby needs to feed again and she herself worked a four hour shift daily without needing to ever subject her co-workers to seeing her breast feeding or pumping.

Now stop putting down people who are only asking for politeness and get back to the Sims 2, alright? Geez.. no wonder Maxis hid this feature.

[Larxene]

No. Feeding a baby is fine, breastfeeding is fine, breastfeeding in public without at least a blanket or something is RUDE.

That's your opinion, and it's not shared by everyone.  I see nothing rude about feeding a child in public, in fact I'd far rather sit in a restaurant near a woman breastfeeding a baby than some toddler in a high chair with food smeared all over their face.  THAT is disgusting, and a majority of parents will just let it be that way and not bother to wipe their face, in fact some adults encourage this sort of sloppy child eat because they think it's cute or something.  But a woman with a baby latched onto one nipple and maybe the other nipple (gasp!) exposed too, gosh that's just GROSS.

And as for pumps and feeding breastmilk in bottles, oh if ONLY it was that simple.  Pumps don't necessarily work right, or at all.  You know, maybe it isn't fair to say this, but I think that only women who've had a child and been through the breastmilk vs. formula decision have any right to even HAVE an opinion on this topic.  You just don't know unless you've been there, and I've been on both sides (which my Sims kids will too.  They will be breastfed when it's covenient for mom but when it's not dad and others will  feed them formula from a bottle, and they will still get A+ grades and always age transition platinum and have fabulous lives, just like my son.  So there!)   

I find both gross FYI and would encourage neither 

[Jelenedra]

Well saying that someone who doesn't have kids cannot have an opinion in the matter is ridiculous. That's like saying that someone who isn't gay can't support or disagree with their lifestyle. Or saying that if you're not a man, you can't have an opinion about their behavior.

That's just stupid.

Everyone can have an opinion about this, because one way or another, they've been exposed to it. Either they were once breast feed (or not) themselves or they had siblings, cousins, nephews, or the like that were. So, just because I think it's rude to flash your breasts at everyone doens't mean you can discount my opinion because "I've never had a child." You don't know my situation. Did you ever think that maybe, I can't have kids? Or that it will be hard for me to have them? That kinda makes you an ass for saying that my opinion is worthless.

[Larxene]

Well saying that someone who doesn't have kids cannot have an opinion in the matter is ridiculous. That's like saying that someone who isn't gay can't support or disagree with their lifestyle. Or saying that if you're not a man, you can't have an opinion about their behavior.

That's just stupid.

Everyone can have an opinion about this, because one way or another, they've been exposed to it. Either they were once breast feed (or not) themselves or they had siblings, cousins, nephews, or the like that were. So, just because I think it's rude to flash your breasts at everyone doens't mean you can discount my opinion because "I've never had a child." You don't know my situation. Did you ever think that maybe, I can't have kids? Or that it will be hard for me to have them? That kinda makes you an ass for saying that my opinion is worthless.

I never thought the people here were this kind of ignorant. I'm childfree, I will never have kids but I have a sister who breastfed. I have read articles on it. I have asked my mother what it was like and I have asked my sister what she remembers out of my own curiousity. Just because I will never experience it firsthand, this makes my opinion worthless? Does this mean the opinions of all those male doctors who say breastfeeding is good are also worthless? 

Breastfeeding isn't like being gay. Being gay is a sexual orientation.. and everyone seems to agree breastfeeding has nothing to do with sex so why compare it to that? Breastfeeding is like pissing, farting, puking, belching, eating, drinking, pooping, sleeping and any other number of natural functions. The ones that involve nakedness or in general looking like an ass aren't seen as "nice" to do in public. Expecting others to look at your naked breasts in public whether it be to tantalize men or feed a child is rather.. tasteless. I don't see why it's "anti-woman" to be polite to others. I wouldn't run around topless in public and if I did have a child (and Hell froze over)? I would not want to be in public doing that! No thanks, that's too much exposure!

[pearlbh]

>You don't know my situation. Did you ever think that maybe, I can't have kids? Or that it will be hard for me to have them? That >kinda makes you an ass for saying that my opinion is worthless.

Let's see, I said, admitting it might be unfair to say this, that I think people who don't have children shouldn't even have an opinion on this.  You then responded by calling me stupid and an ass.  Let's just let that speak for itself.

And all I was saying is that unless you've had a child and BREASTFED you don't really know how breastfeeding works so there may be a lot of things you're not aware of about those women you THINK are just exhibitionists or whatever.  If you can't have children or are having trouble having them, I'm sorry but that still doesn't change this fact.  And if you think "Oh when I have a child I'll breastfeed but I'll pump and always keep covered up... "  you MIGHT find that things don't go quite like you planned.  It's just one of those things that you don't know about until you get there.  And basically if anybody thinks it's gross to see a woman breastfeeding in public, then THEY can get up and leave, it's their not problem, not the mother's and not the baby's.

And you know I REALLY resent being called stupid and an ass so blatantly.  As you go through this thread it's pretty easy to tell the nice people from the not so nice ones.  Geez even Pescado has been civil!  (And I'm wondering how long it will be until he closes this thread.)

[syberspunk]

Now back to our regularly scheduled program:
This is definitely interesting, but has the minor drawback that Squinge has overridden the global pie menu. Kind of a no-no. Maybe I should make a more awesome version.

I was actually looking at this the other day and thinking about 'fixing' it myself. But if you're gonna do it, I'm sure it will be better.

Somethings of note, I think Squinge's version is a tad buggy. One of the lines in 'Continue Feeding?':

[prim 0x0002] Expression (My motive 0x0007 (Hunger) < Literal 0x005A)

Seems to check if the active sim's hunger is < 90 and then returns true? Don't know why they did that. That means the feeding would presumably continue while the active/breastfeeding sim's hunger is < 90. I would think it would make more sense that breastfeeding should stop if the breastfeeder becomes very hungry. I mean, if your own motives start to drop, you probably want to stop doing whatever it is you're doing so that you can attend to your needs as well.

The line originally was:

[prim 0x0002] Expression (My motive 0x0007 (Hunger) < Literal 0xFFCE)

which seems to make more sense.

Also. I'd prefer that breastfeeding be limited to female sims, since that seems more realistic to me. And... I was thinking it should also be limited to the actual parent or possibly close relatives of the baby... I was thinking more realistically limited to the mother, whether that be birth mother or adopted mother. I mean, I don't know anyone who was breastfed by random strangers or other relatives, no matter how close your family was.


Ste

SPOILERS for any Desperate Housewives fans...

PS. It's kind of interesting... and I don't personally care so much either way, so I kinda just skimmed over the 'debate' about this. But... Desperate Housewives just had an episode about breastfeeding this past Sunday. It was pretty hilarious. The mom in question was still breastfeeding her son, even though he was fairly big, like I think 5ish or 6? I forget exactly. She made an argument about how it's been theorized (sp?) that breastfeeding actually increases IQ or whatever. She pointed out how her son seemed a lot more mature, calm, and well-behaved in comparison to Lynette's rowdy band of miscreants. Anyways, Lynette pulled a scheme that worked, and the kid ended up telling the mom that he didn't want to be breastfed anymore. The funny thing was, the mom was more upset because breastfeeding was keeping her in shape and now she'd be forced to join a gym. lol.

[cwieberdink]

Yeah, breast feeding is important, but mother's that flash their nipples at an entire room to do so, aren't doing it for the benefit of their child, they're doing it because they're into exhibitionism. I know *I* wouldn't be comfortable stripping to feed my baby in public. That's what pumps are for. You pump at home and then you can feed your baby breast milk in public without exposing yourself to the world.

Would you still be comfy with a bottle like this:
http://www.babysupermall.com/main/products/adi/adi42443.html?aff=frog

A bottle is only a substitute breast.  Breasts are for feeding babies.  That's just it.  They just are.  Some people think it's gross when a homosexual couple holds hands in public or give each other a little kiss, but don't think it's gross if hetero couples do. And if those people were to make their feelings known, well they would be homophobic ignorant <insert whatever STE would say here>

Gabrielle Palmer, in her book The Politics of Breastfeeding says "There is a fundamental racism in attitudes to public breastfeeding.  Intrusive cameras turn the zoom lens on hungry women, who, during some disaster, are keeping their babies alive with this precious fluid.  As long as she is black and devastated, the audience is happy to watch, but in the filmin of a TV consumer programme on a baby food issue, some of the film had to be reshot because the baby wanted to suckle his well-dressed white mother and the producer considered that this would be too controversial for the viewers." 

You want to see photographic evidence of the difference between breast and bottle, especially where water supply is unsafe, look at this picture:
http://www.whale.to/w/baby_milk2.html

Sure, we have safe water here, for the most part, but did you know formula is recalled often, sometimes for fatal problems?  In 2003 1.5 million cans of formula sold under many different brand labels were recalled for contamination with Enterobacter sakazakii.  Some have been recalled for being contaminated with salmonella (1993), ground glass (1993), or metal shavings (February 2006).  This is in America.  Not the third world.   (93 was a bad year for formula!)

And as for pumps, not everyone can afford a good one, bad ones can damage your breasts, pumping is a learned art, and unless the mother is going to be separated from her baby they are NOT NECESSARY.

Women don't necessarily flash their nipples for exhibitionism (although some maybe do).  They oftentimes do so inadvertantly as they are trying to latch the baby on, or the baby suddenly turns away to look at something.  I truly don't know (and have never seen) any women who remove their shirts, unbutton their shirt from the top, or take both breasts out to feed one baby.  When I nurse my babies in public, no one even knows.  You know why?  I lift my shirt discretely and the baby looks like s/he is sleeping in my arms.  If I threw a blanket over me, not only would I die from heat exhaustion here in Augusta, GA, but EVERYONE would know IMMEDIATELY what I was doing.  It is more discrete to not use a blanket.  Practice in a mirror at home.  And if I saw a woman's nipples while she nursed, well, so be it.


C

[Jelenedra]

I wasn't comparing it to breast feeding. I was comparing that "you don't know what you're talking about" to it. If you're not gay, then by that logic, you should have no opinion about it. Good or bad.

[Jelenedra]

Yeah, well I get kind of steamed at the "if you don't have kids, you don't know what you're talking about" attitude.

Makes it sound like I'm some sort of a second rate woman because I haven't popped a kid out. Which is actually HARD for me to do, what with the chain of cysts circling my ovaries and choking my reproductive system.

So excuse me if I get emotional about it.

[cwieberdink]

Also. I'd prefer that breastfeeding be limited to female sims, since that seems more realistic to me. And... I was thinking it should also be limited to the actual parent or possibly close relatives of the baby... I was thinking more realistically limited to the mother, whether that be birth mother or adopted mother. I mean, I don't know anyone who was breastfed by random strangers or other relatives, no matter how close your family was.

I have known several families where one sister nursed the niece or nephew because the mom was sick or unable, or whatever.  I have known sisters who traded off childcare and wet-nursing so they could both work in alternating shifts.  Many traditional cultures around the world share the task of breastfeeding their children in their close knit clans or tribes.  These children are then "milk-siblings" and it is taboo to marry.  And I have heard of lesbian couples also that shared breastfeeding of a child.  I have known women who were friends who took care of another woman's baby, including nursing, when she was in a coma for a week after birth.  So, it's not talked about, because people think it's "gross"    But it happens.  More than people think.

C

[syberspunk]

Well... I figured that it does happen. I just never knew of it. But I did say, in the very least, limit it to family or at least close to the family. I suppose friends would be ok, if the sims actually qualified as friends.

Perhaps limiting it to mothers first, and then other family members who have to build up a relationship with the baby first. Like, if they are not a mother, then check if they are friends with the baby or has at least 25+ STR with the baby or something like that. And if the sim is not a family member, then make sure they are friends with the mother of the baby, and then if they are friends with the baby or has at least 25+ STR with the baby.

I think that would be reasonable enough. No? It's not that I necessarily find the topic disturbing or anything. I just think it would be more reaslistic, rather than having the option available to total, random strangers.

As it stands, Squinge's mod makes the option availble to any adult of any sex. I think it also disallows autonomous use of it, so I guess it's not a big deal. But I would like to see it be autonomous in some situations. I kinda like that sims do things on their own since I prefer to play with Free Will on. If a baby is very hungry, and the mom has a very good relationship with it, or if they're a family sim, or if the fridge is relatively far away, then it'd be neat to have mothers (or relatives or close friends) breastfeed the baby.

Ste

[maxon]

PS- I'll support public breastfeeding when I can take my top off at the beach!

Come and live in Europe

[Ashleigh]

Does it gross you out? Make you uncomfortable? Do you find it rude? Do you think the person is inconsiderate to not show any manners or respect for other human beings? Would you be bothered enough to not want to sit next to them or have them near your food?

Yes.

You know, maybe it isn't fair to say this, but I think that only women who've had a child and been through the breastmilk vs. formula decision have any right to even HAVE an opinion on this topic.

Ouch! My girlfriend and I don't have children yet because I have PCOS, I'll be the birth mother and she's not ready to breed yet - but that doesn't stop me from being pro-boob and protesting against formula. I think anyone who is educated about the facts should have an opinion and be determined to breastfeed before the child comes into the world.

[Ambular]

Just wanted to add to the request for an awesome version of this.  Great idea!

[Jelenedra]

Ouch! My girlfriend and I don't have children yet because I have PCOS, I'll be the birth mother and she's not ready to breed yet - but that doesn't stop me from being pro-boob and protesting against formula. I think anyone who is educated about the facts should have an opinion and be determined to breastfeed before the child comes into the world.

Would that be polycystic ovarian syndrome/disease? If so, that's what I have too, and the doctor told me, that I have a silm to low chance of conceiving without medication, and a high chance of miscarriage if I do happen to get pregnant without drugs. My mother had it undiagnosed before me, she had three kids with no problems, but she also had three miscarriages...

[Chezzie]

Women don't necessarily flash their nipples for exhibitionism (although some maybe do).  They oftentimes do so inadvertantly as they are trying to latch the baby on, or the baby suddenly turns away to look at something.  I truly don't know (and have never seen) any women who remove their shirts, unbutton their shirt from the top, or take both breasts out to feed one baby.  When I nurse my babies in public, no one even knows.  You know why?  I lift my shirt discretely and the baby looks like s/he is sleeping in my arms.  If I threw a blanket over me, not only would I die from heat exhaustion here in Augusta, GA, but EVERYONE would know IMMEDIATELY what I was doing.  It is more discrete to not use a blanket.  Practice in a mirror at home.  And if I saw a woman's nipples while she nursed, well, so be it.


C

First I'd like to say I have NO problem with women breastfeeding in public. My friend did it all the time, I have however seen women take out both breasts to feed one baby (and it tends to make people uncomfortable ) I even saw one woman still uncovered while she changed her kids diaper. whatever floats her boat I guess.  I personally don't think women should have to cover up(and most women i've seen  breastfeed do it in a way that they don't need to yet noone gets an eyefull)but some women do take it a little too far i.e the diaper lady!

anyway i just had to share that.

 i'd just like to add that everyone is entitled to their own opinion if you don't mind breastfeeding in public great if you do that's fine too.   most people can't just flip a switch and suddenly they are fine with everything, and no amount of arguing or educating is going to change their mind.  they are entitled to feel uncomfortable just like others are entitled to whip out a tit in public

now i'd like to add my request for an awsome hack please

 

[idtaminger]

Formula stinks terribly. I don't know how babies take it. I would never put that stuff in my mouth. Ewww.

[Stitches]

PS- I'll support public breastfeeding when I can take my top off at the beach!

Come and live in Europe

I've been considering it.

I'm a little tired of America's strange dislike of the human body. I understand people that don't want to see breastfeeding because many, many people have been raised to believe that their bodies are disgusting things that should be covered up. If it's any better at all in Europe, I'd like to know.

[Jelenedra]

Well, if they don't know any better....

And just to clarify I don't think breast feeding in public is GROSS. I just think there is a difference between a woman respectfully feeding her child and one that lets it all hang out.

I like in Oklahoma, I've seen some very gross public displays of breastfeeding. Women with no bras, wearing tube tops WHILE pregnant, that basically just pulled her tit out and let it lay on her stomach while her other baby fed. That's gross. Tube tops in general are gross, but that was especially gross.

[Renatus]

I've been considering it.

I'm a little tired of America's strange dislike of the human body. I understand people that don't want to see breastfeeding because many, many people have been raised to believe that their bodies are disgusting things that should be covered up. If it's any better at all in Europe, I'd like to know.

Well, I know people are probably tired of me going "This is how it's like in Finland" but hey, this is where I've lived for the past year and where I'll probably live for the rest of my life, so it's what you get -

In Finland, and I am getting the impression in Scandinavia in general, the view of the body is a little more relaxed. It's still not perfect, but I don't feel the obsessively fearful edge about it I felt when I was in the States. One of the first ads that caught my eye was the profile of a nude woman for something rpegnancy related (not sure, I couldn't read Finnish at the time). As far as I can tell it is perfectly normal for women to breastfeed in public, and I have yet to see a single one who was 'letting it all hang out', even though it seemed 75% of the women I saw last year were pregnant and now an equal proprtion are wheeling around infants in prams.  They simply do it because that is what one does when one's baby is hungry.

[cabelle]

Does it gross you out? Make you uncomfortable? Do you find it rude? Do you think the person is inconsiderate to not show any manners or respect for other human beings? Would you be bothered enough to not want to sit next to them or have them near your food?

Yes.

You know, maybe it isn't fair to say this, but I think that only women who've had a child and been through the breastmilk vs. formula decision have any right to even HAVE an opinion on this topic.

Ouch! My girlfriend and I don't have children yet because I have PCOS, I'll be the birth mother and she's not ready to breed yet - but that doesn't stop me from being pro-boob and protesting against formula. I think anyone who is educated about the facts should have an opinion and be determined to breastfeed before the child comes into the world.

The unfair reality is that if you haven't had a child you have no idea what it's like to be a breastfeeding mom. Just like those who haven't experienced the heartbreak of infertility do not fully comprehend your pain. Wouldn't you be offended if someone judged the decisions you make with your infertility situation? My heart goes out to you guys, I had secondary infertility (I have ovulatory problems that the doctors never found a cause for) and had to take fertility drugs to get pregnant with my second daughter. I had rude, insentitive people tell me, "You already have one child, shouldn't you just be happy with her?" or "Why don't you just adopt?" That hurt, I felt like people who didn't understand my situation were passing judgement on me. They didn't know what it's like to be on that awful emotional roller coaster and I just wanted them to shut their mouths. It became even more uncomfortable when my problem temporarily corrected itself and I surprisingly became pregnant with my third daughter. Then I was on the receiving end of remarks like, "See I told you all you needed to do was just relax."

So I hope you understand I'm not trying to take a pot shot at your painful situation but hoping that you will try to understand how we feel. Being a nursing mom isn't a cakewalk in this country.You haven't yet been in this situation yourself so you don't know what it's like. To be "banished" to another room to feed your child. To try to cover yourself with a blanket when you feed your child in public. To be treated like some second class circus freak for wanting to care for your child as you see best. And believe me, like Faemidwife said people seem to notice when you use the blanket. I'm glad that I had these cool nursing tops, it was rare that anyone noticed my baby was eating. I didn't "flash" or act like some self-centered exhibitionist (I practiced in the mirror too), I just wanted to feed my child in a normal fashion while being able to care for my other kids. I didn't want to have to schedule my daily responsibilities around having to hide in another room while my youngest received nourishment.


It's interesting how it all seems to be a matter of "mental conditioning." My children and many of their agemates couldn't care less. Makes me really wonder about the mindset of some adults when their response is, "Eww, can't she go in another room or something?" when the children who see the same nursing mom don't notice her or even care. I'm not talking just preschoolers and such, I've seen preteens and teens with a, "Who cares, she's feeding her baby" attitude. Maybe hopefully in 10-20 years this will no longer be an issue in this bassakwards country and nursing moms will finally stop being harrassed. But there will probably be no agreement today or in the near future.