Totally off-topic question about Euros.

[Sagana]

I was looking at a summer program in the Netherlands, trying to figure out how much it costs. It says:

We charge students a tuition fee of € 70,- for the whole Summer School period. Those who are not regular University students will be charged € 120,-. Next to tuition fee, a registration fee of € 30,- has to be paid by everyone at the moment of registration.

I know that's in Euros and that a Euro is not quite $2 (I'm an American idjit, in case you can't tell but I'm having a hard time believing the entire fee for summer registration, + extra for not being a Uni student is150 Euros or some less than $300 (I could look up the exact exchange, don't mean that) soooo, am I reading that correctly? I'm not missing a decimal or something? I suppose it couuld mean 70,000 Euros, but that sounds rather high for a couple of weeks course. Is University tuition just that much less in some (or all) parts of Europe?

[Li'l Brudder]

okay, it's 220 Euros.  So it's $266.02.  Get ready to pay the 2 cents!  I think that doesn't include the plane tickets, so add about $500-$600 on, and that's probably your price.

[BlueSoup]

According to a currency calculator I found, 70 euros equals 84.6440 USD.  It makes sense that if it's a program tied to a University education, that it would be cheaper.  Often, they are subsidized government programs for University students.

[jrd]

Would this be the University of Leiden? In that case the prices are likely correct. These courses are heavily subsidized.

Tuition fee in general is a factor 10-20 higher for us unfortunates who live here.

Housing is extremely expensive though. At least €200 and likely much more.

[Sagana]

Where'd you get 220? I could 120 for a non-uni person +30 registration.

Yep University of Leiden. and I see. If I paid for this course at home, it would cost much much more than that for tuition. They're offering dorm housing for 200 euros which is way cheap compared to American hotel prices or something. They're also offering food in the Faculty of Arts cafeteria (all 3 meals, all 11 days). This thing is a steal. Now I just need to hop a freighter or something... want some company? ;)

[angelyne]

University is heavily subsidized in some parts of Europe as many have said. I know for example that it's free in Denmark.  But they give more than 50% of their pay check to the governement.  So it's free, but somebody pays .......

[Gwill]

Netherlands isn't America.
Schools are for teaching and learning, not for making money.
You'll see a lot of that in Europe.

[Ellatrue]

When I was in Stuttgart, there were these massive student protests because they were going to raise tuition from 50 to 500 euro. It irritated me- I think they have no idea of the actual cost to educate a student in a university. I get a pretty good deal for mine, and I only pay half of what it costs the out of state students- and it still comes to $4,000 (not counting room and board). I was paying so much for the priveledge to study, and they were getting a free ride. Of course, I came to feel that their university kind of sucked, too, so maybe you get what you pay for: we only had class once a week, and no textbooks. Cheap, but much more difficult to learn anything- maybe that's why so many of them took 6 years to graduate with their first degree. I mean, even the cost of educating someone in grade school is usually at least 500 dollars per student!
I believe one Euro is about 1.28 dollars.

[Gwill]

Universities in europe is mostly paid for by taxes.
People who go to univerity get good jobs.
People with good jobs earn good money.
People who earn good money pay lots of taxes.

It works!  Trust me, for us; it works.

It all means that you don't have to have rich parents to get an education.

[J. M. Pescado]

Universities in europe is mostly paid for by taxes.
People who go to univerity get good jobs.
People with good jobs earn good money.
People who earn good money pay lots of taxes.

It works!  Trust me, for us; it works.

It all means that you don't have to have rich parents to get an education.

This logic certainly has merit, but there's one flaw with it: If everyone can go to Uni, and get a good job, who's going to do all the crappy jobs?

[Gwill]

This logic certainly has merit, but there's one flaw with it: If everyone can go to Uni, and get a good job, who's going to do all the crappy jobs?

Everyone can afford to go to university.
There are still plenty of people who are two dumb to go to university.

[jrd]

Intentional typo?

[Ellatrue]

Yeah, except because of the way their lower education system is inherently discriminatory against the poor, all of them had rich parents anyway. They just liked the idea of not having to take out a loan or get a job. I felt like they were protesting the wrong thing- why not protest the system that denies students who fail a single test in the 4th grade the chance to go to university, EVER. A surprisingly high number of minority children, oddly enough. I think that is the real injustice- not the 500 euro fee that even the poorest could manage to pay (student loans, remember?).

I guess this is a sore subject for me- and Gwill, your comment about "it's not about making money" irritates me- it isn't about that HERE either, we just finance things differently. My room mate's family is so poor, they get food stamps from the government, and she is still able to pay for college (granted, there is financial aid, so not everyone really pays the same).

There is something to be said for such a cheap education, but think about it more before you make such insulting statements.

[IgnorantBliss]

I didn't really pay anything for my university education as tuitions. What I paid for was a small yearly some of money for the student organization, which then equipped me with a student card (to get discounts on things like train tickets) and nearly free health care. I did pay for my books, but we could also use the library and most of the books we didn't really need to buy ourselves if we didn't want to. And I paid for private housing.

Now it's been over 4 years since my graduation, I'm making decent money, paying my taxes, not minding a bit that a part of my income goes to pay for other kids' education. And the income tax really isn't any higher than the average American one (I'm aware that it varies state by state). Granted, we get taxed more for things like gasoline.

Everyone who's got decent grades and puts the effort into university entrance exams, has a chance of going to university here in Finland. Kids from well-off families, most likely, do get more support from their parents, but even the poorest student can struggle through university without massive loans if they are willing to cut down their expenses to the essentials. I can't believe the amount of money I survived on monthly only five years ago, but I did, without putting my previously in debt parents or myself in more debt.

Edited to add: Even when it's financially possible, not everyone wants to go to university. I know many who don't, including my sister and brother. A large number of people are not willing to go through many years of university education to get a job that doesn't always pay much more than something you can have with a lower level of education. And many people simply aren't interested in the areas that you can study in a university. They will rather go for something more "practical".

[angelyne]

I think what Gwill was trying to say is that not everyone has the necessary aptitude and mindset to go to university.  Without knowing about the system in Europe, I am pretty sure that while everyone can afford to go, not everyone gets in and not everyone graduates, even if they get in.  But at least it's not solely based on your (parent's) ability to pay.  So there are plenty of people left to do the crappy jobs, as JM says.

Money does not parallel intelligence.  By basing your university system on ability-to-pay you don't just commit an injustice, society looses as well.  Who knows how many untold people are out there who could have contributed to society but never got a chance.

So it's a vicious cycle. Poor people have little means and little hope of digging themselves out of their hole, and they have children who grow up to be the same. 

[qvcatullus]

I guess the thread can't go off-topic if it was to begin with. So I'll chime in.
Another problem with the above thinking is that even though rich people pay more taxes, they are also much better able to afford high taxes. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but do folks who make less money (around minimum wage, through say my private school salary at just above $30k in an expensive metro area?) pay a higher tax rate than they do in America, or is the entire increased tax load shifted upwards? Because then it becomes remarkably unfair that people who didn't go to college, perhaps never intended to go to college, end up paying for someone else to go to college. Someone who makes 200,000 and pays 50% taxes has 100,000 to live on, which is annoying, but quite liveable. Someone who makes 20,000 and pays 20% taxes is stuck at a very difficult 16,000.
Even if the more socialized economic system offers more support programs (National Health or what have you) in the higher-tax economy, you're still cutting the legs out from under economic freedom.

[Ellatrue]

Yeah, my boyfriend lives in Finland, and I think he is only able to pay for his education because of this- although he still needed some sort of student aid to get through school without starving, I think. In Virginia we do try to keep tuition as low as possible, and offer a lot of financial aid, but there is never enough money for the schools such that college could be free, for everyone. I would like to see something like they have in Finland too, of course, but I don't think it would be possible without limiting the quality of the education or dramatically increasing taxes in a way that would harm a lot of people.

From what I learned about your country from him, your taxes are indeed significantly higher. I can't imagine anyone here paying 50% of their income, or getting taxed extra for taking a second job (anyone working two jobs clearly needs the money). As far as digging yourself out of poverty, I really feel it is easier here, in spite of the craziness with getting a higher education. There are not so may barriers in terms of getting a job, or a home, or being allowed on the college track in the first place- lots of people struggle in high school and still lead productive lives (so long as they graduate).

Of course, even the rich students here live on only a small amount of money per month. I would kill if it meant I could pay a mere 500 per semester. New shoes for everyone!

[IgnorantBliss]

I guess the thread can't go off-topic if it was to begin with. So I'll chime in.
Another problem with the above thinking is that even though rich people pay more taxes, they are also much better able to afford high taxes. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but do folks who make less money (around minimum wage, through say my private school salary at just above $30k in an expensive metro area?) pay a higher tax rate than they do in America, or is the entire increased tax load shifted upwards? Because then it becomes remarkably unfair that people who didn't go to college, perhaps never intended to go to college, end up paying for someone else to go to college. Someone who makes 200,000 and pays 50% taxes has 100,000 to live on, which is annoying, but quite liveable. Someone who makes 20,000 and pays 20% taxes is stuck at a very difficult 16,000.
Even if the more socialized economic system offers more support programs (National Health or what have you) in the higher-tax economy, you're still cutting the legs out from under economic freedom.

The tax % depends on your income. People with a high income pay a signifigantly higher % than people with a low income. Someone who makes 20,000€ (Euros, not dollars), pays about 20% in taxes. People with extra expenses like kids get child support.

People who never went to college may end up paying for someone's college education, but also college graduates who never had kids end up paying for other people's kids' grade school or child support. That's the idea of the system, to distribute the expenses more evenly. Social system or not, expenses can never be distributed completely fairly. Someone who gets sick with leukemia did not plan it and did not deserve it, and doesn't deserve to go to personal bankrupcy to have it treated. In cases like that, the socialized system is clearly more fair, in the way that I personally understand "fair". Someone else might disagree.

[Sagana]

Well an off-topic thread certainly can't go off-topic :) I didn't intend to start a political debate tho - not that I mind, it's interesting... - I just don't intend to get deeply into discussing the systems, but now I can't resist one comment.

A lot of people seem to feel if they don't have kids, they shouldn't input anything into the educational system (whatever that system might be) as it's "not fair" they have to pay for other peoples' childrens' schooling.... well, imo they're failing to realize that society in general benefits from a higher educational level.  mean, just one way general example, if your poor neighbor's son manages to go to school on your tax dollars and becomes a chemist who invents... oh say, a pill that cures the common cold... you'd want to live in a society that has a cure, yes? Or his increased taxes after graduation help pay for the roads in your community, so you have better roads because you helped educate him. Like that.

Sorry, sorry - pet peeve.

[Ellatrue]

Well an off-topic thread certainly can't go off-topic I didn't intend to start a political debate tho - not that I mind, it's interesting... - I just don't intend to get deeply into discussing the systems, but now I can't resist one comment.

A lot of people seem to feel if they don't have kids, they shouldn't input anything into the educational system (whatever that system might be) as it's "not fair" they have to pay for other peoples' childrens' schooling.... well, imo they're failing to realize that society in general benefits from a higher educational level. 

Yeah, that really irritates me, too. I feel like it should be really obvious.