Family Allowance/Child Benefit for sim parents?

[Emma]

I was lying in bed last night*, and it occured to me that the sims have no financial gain for having children, and I was wondering if it would be possible to have a hack to pay sims say-§10-§15 per day, per child for example. It would make having sim little'uns around much easier, and also help to pay for childcare! I don't know if this could be done though. It would really help with family sims who want tons of kids. Maybe the payments will stop when the kid reaches teen years (they can get a job then!)

*Yeah, I have fun in bed...if I am not playing on the sims, I am thinking about them! Obsessed? Me?

[J. M. Pescado]

No. I consider the very idea to be abominable. Mention this again and I'll marry you to Goopy.

[Emma]

*giggles*

[ZephyrZodiac]

Emma, do you live in the UK?  Or France?  No point mentioning Family allowance to Americans, they just wouldn't understand!

[Renatus]

Keep in mind why it is we wouldn't understand. Sure, some of us are "lone wolf, only the strong survive!" people like Pescado, but others of us don't understand because the gubbermint isn't much interested in us once we're out of the womb until we're old enough to work and pay taxes. It then becomes a weird thing to try to wrap the mind around -  "Wait, the goverment actually CARES about me having enough money to feed and clothe my kid, and send it to a decent school and such? No way! Goverments don't do that..."

(I love my country, even though I don't live there anymore... but the policies of the goverment make me want to cry sometimes.)

[Emma]

Yeah, I live in the UK Zeph We get child benefit for our kids-why do you think I keep popping them out? *giggles*

[ZephyrZodiac]

Oh, I realise why the US government isn't interested - and since any child allowance comes out of other people's taxes, a lot of non-parents would agree!

In the UK it started when the birth rate dropped after the war, and the same in France - there it's much higher than ours in the UK, because the birth rate dropped very drastically.  Trouble is, of course, it makes no difference to the child-rearing plans of well-paid professionals, so eventually even if you raise the birth-rate slightly, you tend to get a drop in average IQ!  So maybe the US have it right!

And Emma, I don't put you in the category of those who lower the average IQ - you wouldn't be playing the sims if you were!  (Probably wouldn't even be able to read the instruction booklet!)

However, it would be nice if CAS created elders could have just a small state pension since they haven't had the opportunity to be like Mortimer and reach the top of any career!

[Renatus]

I dunno, ZZ. I grew up very poor, and a little bit of a benefit would have helped alleviate a lot of problems, and I'm sure it would for many even poorer children. But then, I'm no economist or any such thing, so I can't say with any sort of authority or knowledge of what will or will not work... :\

[jrd]

I use a simple custom career, wellfare. It only makes them go to "work" for one hour per week, to cash their cheque. I have not implemented chance cards or promotions (at least not yet).

I usually give this one to the non-working parent (via the newspaper testing cheats), as it ensures an income and prevents them from spinning the job wants.

[Emma]

Where did you get this Jordi? It sounds awesome...*sticks tongue out at Pescado*

And Emma, I don't put you in the category of those who lower the average IQ - you wouldn't be playing the sims if you were!  (Probably wouldn't even be able to read the instruction booklet!)

Instruction booklet? Duh...wassat? 

[sabra]

We do so have "child benefits."  They're called tax deductions.  For every dependent child, you can take a certain amount off of the bottom line that's used to calculate how much income tax you pay.  Of course you have to make a decent living to make this economically worthwhile.  Definitely not sufficient incentive all by itself to have children. For that, you have to be deluded. *

*I love my children.  But they NEVER WASH UP AFTER THEMSELVES.

[Renatus]

Tax deductions... *slaps forehead* Forgot entirely about them. I don't have children, so it's not something I've had to deal with personally. Not sure they did much for my mother, because as I said, poor. It also works rather differently (afaik) than child benefit systems like here in Finland.

[IgnorantBliss]

I would love the idea of a child benefit hack. Plus, in the sim world, it's not your neighbors who pay for it  .

I do not have children and neither am I ever planning on having any, but I do like the idea of the child support system we have here in Finland. I don't mind some of my tax money going for that. I do mind co-workers who assume they have the right to take important holidays off because they have small children, and make the child-free ones work instead, because we supposedly have no life. But that's a whole another issue.

[virgali]

  lol Many of you made so many funny comments.

Although I don't agree with that IQ thing. Poor people don't necessarly have low IQ and for one childcare could help those who cannot afford proper education to get one so that would have a good impact on the average "intelligence" of the country.
Not that IQ means much. People who have IQ but no interest at all to put it to good use won't come far not as far even then someone with a lower IQ who is determind to study hard and gain as much knowledge as possible.

To stay a little bit on topic... That is an awesome idea for that hack, although I think that the game is already easy enough so we wouldn't really need that hack. It would be great for storytelling tho.

Greets to all,
virgali

[cwykes]

I live in Belgium so I get a lot more child benefit than you people in the UK.  I look at it as getting back all the money I paid out in contributions when I was working.  But looking at it another way...  If nobody has kids, where is our future?and... Do you want children living in poverty?  The UK gave up on tax credit for children about 20/30 years ago because the money wasn't getting to the women who needed it.  I remember two arguments. One was that tax credits are a perk for the rich and the poor who need them most, don't get any benefit.  The second was that the tax credit went to the husband and the wife never saw it.  The labour government wanted to put cash in the mother's hand.

Why not call it unemployment money?

[Emma]

Why not call it compensation for all the dirty nappies and sleepness nights?

[Renatus]

IQ thing? I take it that you're talking about an outside argument, virgali? I don't agree that being poor = low IQ either, since, well, I was poor but I tested pretty darn high, but extra money is nice when one has to, say, take their kid to the doctor and get proper treatment for things. I was born with hip dysplasia, but I guess since my mom was poor they didn't think it was a big deal not to put me in a brace to correct it. As a result I have a good few problems from it that only get worse as I get older, even though I'm under 30 - and I'm far past the age where it could have been corrected.

Er, not seeking sympathy, there, just giving an example. I'm bitter but I've dealt with it.

As for an in-game way to do this - well, it's a somewhat awkward solution, but you could set up a sim that is a bank or govermental agency unto themselves and motherlode them a bunch of money. Every so often in gameplay, you could go to their lot and have them send money to lots with kids via JM's money order mod. Save and exit and load up a lot with kids, and the payment is sitting in their account!

[edit: Apparently a decent IQ doesn't mean one doesn't make silly grammar mistakes when one is hungry. ]

[ZephyrZodiac]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the majority of ordinary people having familes will have low IQ children.  What I meant to say was that people with high IQ's and a good education who are in top careers are unlikely to be influenced by child benefit etc. as to whether or not they have a family, or how large it will be.  And if those people (who often started life poor, don't forget) have fewer children, the national gene-pool is diminished.

As to Income Tax relief for children, it was, to my mind, a far better system than child benefit.  Child benefit is the same whether your child is 3 months or 15.  Tax Relief used to continue until your child was independent or over 21.  So a child at University was still regarded (in those days when the State recognised that graduates were something necessary to the state and thus grants were paid to poorer students) as a dependent, and the parents got tax relief on the money they paid for the child's upkeep at Uni.

As cwykes points out, though, the problem with tax relief was that mostly it went to the father, not the mother, and therefore the children frequently did not benefit - it just added a bit more drinking money to father's wallet (and believe you me there were plenty of men like that around when I was growing up, who didn't believe in marriage being an equal partnership and therefore gave their wives a pitiful amount in housekeeping!)

We have a system now of tax credits for poorer people with children but no government can ever ensure that the money is used as intended, there will always be people who claim the money and still keep their kids short of essentials while they fund their drink/drug habit.

[ZiggyDoodle]

there will always be people who claim the money and still keep their kids short of essentials while they fund their drink/drug habit.

Yup, and having worked in the legal field for a good number of years, I often muse about our requirement that people must obtain licenses to get married and to drive (as well as take classes regarding those issue), but not to have children.

[nectere]

We also have "child benefits" here through welfare, which is an abomination in my opinion. I say if you can't afford them without my help then don't have them! I am sure there are people out there that actually need welfare temporarily, but there are too many uneducated women popping out babies by several different men so they sit on their fat ass and collect welfare for each of their kids, who meanwhile are maniacal little heathens...

I simply hate this sense of entitlement so many people seem to have in this day and age. You are "entitled" to NOTHING.


very sore topic...

[IgnorantBliss]

Low education doesn't always correlate with low IQ, and a low IQ or low education doesn't necessarily make a person a bad member of the society. I hate high how "highly educated" is often implied to mean the same thing as "good person", and "less educated" implies that you're a part of some mass of undefined stupidity. I know so many smart people who, for one reason or another, have very little formal education. I also come from a family and a small town where traditionally practical skills were valued (and needed), and getting high education a few decades ago was both difficult and unnecessary. My parents never even graduated high school. I still don't consider my parents to be some stereotypical low class people breeding stupid offspring. Rather, they have worked hard to provide sufficient income for the family and made us understand that there are other things more important in life than a fancy education or loads of money, which have nothing to do with being a good person. That I then decided to get a higher education (made possible by the free university education in Finland) was fine, too, but it has, again, nothing to do with how good a person I am. I have so many collagues whose behaviour doesn't match their outer, prestigious status, and I know many less educated people who have a lot more integrity. People seem to keep living under this false impression about the doctors and lawyers with their smart and well-behaved children and perfect lives. But anybody who treats me differently after they find out about my profession is not going to get my respect. If you don't like me or care to serve me as I am, then don't pretend to just because of my title. If it's not genuine, I don't want it.

[Kyna]

Over the past few budgets the Australian Govt has been setting aside more money and new incentives to encourage more people to have children.

There are two main reasons for this.  One reason is to try to counter the recent trend of educated couples to have only one child or no children.  But I don't think this will work, as educated couples know they are much better off financially by not having children both because of the cost of children and because of the impact on the parents' careers.  Financial incentives aren't going to induce them to change their minds.

The second social trend that causes the government a great deal of concern is the aging population.  The baby boomer generation is reaching retirement age - and there's not only a rising pressure regarding retirement payments, there's also going to be an evergrowing need for age related services - from hearing aids and medicines to retirement villages and nursing homes.  The government have two options, and they'll eventually resort to both no doubt - either to cut funding for aged services and pensions (which will become increasingly electorally dangerous as time passes and the population ages) or to try to encourage an increasing population now, to provide future staff for those services and future taxpayers to foot the bill.  I think it's a case of too little assistance that is coming too late - but at least the government has flagged that they now see a need to increase the birth rate.

Australia isn't the only nation facing this kind of problem.  It may be less of an issue in countries where social welfare is not given a high priority, but it's still an issue to some degree for every country that has a baby boomer generation.

Some people who have chosen not to have children may think it's unfair that services and money are provided to parents.  They have a right to their opinion, I won't dispute that.  But I wonder whose taxes they think will fund the hospitals they'll increasingly need, not to mention the pensions and the govenrnment subsidies that senior citizens receive, and who do they think will staff the pharmacies, the hearing aid clinics, the nursing homes, etc - it will be the responsibility of the children of those who were 'selfish' enough to become parents.

Back on topic: As for the game - personally I think money is too easy to come by in the game as it is, even without the three Maxis-provided money cheats.  First generations can be tough, but after that it's a piece of cake - 2nd generation and onwards have the double advantage of a degree and being highly skilled so computers can get them high paying jobs immediately, the house is furnished comfortably, and once the elders die of old age there's a nice inheritance.  This is probably why I like playing first generation sims - the game is more interesting for me when the money pressure is added.

[angelyne]

Emma, do you live in the UK?  Or France?  No point mentioning Family allowance to Americans, they just wouldn't understand!

And what is Canada?  chopped liver?

No don't answer that ....

[ZephyrZodiac]

Low education doesn't always correlate with low IQ, and a low IQ or low education doesn't necessarily make a person a bad member of the society. I hate high how "highly educated" is often implied to mean the same thing as "good person", and "less educated" implies that you're a part of some mass of undefined stupidity. I know so many smart people who, for one reason or another, have very little formal education. I also come from a family and a small town where traditionally practical skills were valued (and needed), and getting high education a few decades ago was both difficult and unnecessary. My parents never even graduated high school. I still don't consider my parents to be some stereotypical low class people breeding stupid offspring. Rather, they have worked hard to provide sufficient income for the family and made us understand that there are other things more important in life than a fancy education or loads of money, which have nothing to do with being a good person. That I then decided to get a higher education (made possible by the free university education in Finland) was fine, too, but it has, again, nothing to do with how good a person I am. I have so many collagues whose behaviour doesn't match their outer, prestigious status, and I know many less educated people who have a lot more integrity. People seem to keep living under this false impression about the doctors and lawyers with their smart and well-behaved children and perfect lives. But anybody who treats me differently after they find out about my profession is not going to get my respect. If you don't like me or care to serve me as I am, then don't pretend to just because of my title. If it's not genuine, I don't want it.

I never meant to imply that hard-working parents were the problem - they are the majority and provide the basis of our society.  Where would we be with a generation of lawyers and no building tradesmen/women?  But on each end of the social scale you have (a) the affluent, highly educated, who have no need of financial inducements to have children, and will only ever have the number they want and (b) the hangers on, who don't contribute anything, but have far more kids than they are able or willing to look after, and will therefore lower the average IQ.  Maybe for these people we need to adopt the chinese approach and pay them NOT to have children!  Or penalise them if they do.  Having said that, many of their children will genetically have the potential to reach average or plus average IQ, but if their early years are spent watching endless TV, they only learn to speak one word demands, are still in diapers when they start school at 5, they start life with a big handicap and often they don't ever catch up.  IQ is not fixed unti puberty, so it can drop as well as rise, maybe only a few points, but those few points at the lower end of the scale make more difference than a few points at the top.

[Kristalrose]

When I first started reading this thread, I thought Emma meant the tax deductable, also.

The poor also get something called "Earned Income Credit" here in the States.  Which means, pretty much, that if they work but do not make enough to get above the poverty level, the government rewards them with this credit that they can claim either on their paycheck as an advance or when they file their income tax returns.  These are the people that these tax preparation "chains" like H&R Block are courting with their "Cash Return Loans".  You've seen the comercials?  "Come in to H&R Block with your last paycheck stub for the year, let us do your taxes, and walk out with a check."  What the comercial doesn't tell you is that a large portion of your tax refund will go to their fees.  But, if you're getting two or three thousand dollars, what's a couple hundred to get it back quicker, I guess.   

It is because of the Earned Income Credit that our Congress (Or at least, certian conservative members of it) decided it was okay to raise the child deduction for everyone but the poor.  I believe that the low-income families get $600 per child, while the middle class and wealthy get $800 per child. 

Something that UK, France, and other countries do that I wish terribly that the US would do is provide free high quality child care to EVERYONE.  Here where I live, there is a major shortage of child care providers.  If you have an infant and do not have a relative or trusted friend to watch the baby, you are practically out of luck when it comes to child care.  Most providers do not accept children until the age of 2, because the state has such strict standards for the teacher:child ratio.  The teachers are paid just above minimum wage and no benifits.  They are still required by the state to get their Early Childhood Credentials, so they are supposed to be educated.  But, babies are usually kept with an in-home provider who is not required to have an Education.  Last Week in Raleigh, a 21 year old woman killed a toddler in her care, the daughter of her best friend.  I have seen mother after mother in my area choose to stay on welfare, or choose a life of crime and poverty and squallor, rather than entrust their infant to poor child care and pay $90 a week for it!