Apartment Base Squatting: Viable?

[rufio]

Something occurred to me while moving sims in and out of apartments recently; you can move a sim into an apartment lot from the neighborhood, and save and exit without actually choosing an apartment.  If the common area of the apartment has proper accommodations, it should in theory be possible to persist indefinitely on the apartment base lot with no bills, no rent, and no having to pay any money except for food.  I tried to actually play this out, but due to unrelated errors (apparently there are corrupted urnstone tokens in my test hood) I wound up quitting and didn't get around to finishing the experiment.

Things I noticed:
- Unlike on community lots, the presence of a grill does not mean that you can use it to make free food.  If there is a fridge in the common area, you can use the Make/Make Many options from OBF to generate food (which cost money, TS1-style).  If you have a cell phone (or, probably, a phone in the community area) you can apparently still order pizza and Chinese food.
- You can get a job, assuming that there are computers on the lot.  Obviously, there's no newspaper.  Presumably the carpool still comes, though even if it doesn't you can probably still walk to work.
- You can't go to community lots, or at least you can't call a taxi.  You might be able to use a car placed in the common area, or walk, though - I stopped using walk to community lot long ago, since it seems not to play well with one of TJ's hacks.  There is an option on the cell phone for asking someone out on a date - presumably, you could ask them out to a community lot, end the date, and then do whatever you wanted to do on the community lot.
- No neighbors, since the neighbors don't show up to claim apartments until you claim one yourself.  Presumably, if you move other playable sims into apartments, they will show up and can be interacted with.  (I was actually in the middle of trying this when an error popped up during the move-in video and the game had to be killed from the task manager.  Sigh.)
- No reward objects, since you can't place anything.
- There is a slightly annoying message that comes up occasionally telling you to pick an apartment, but it could probably be killed easily with a mod.
- The landlord never goes home, acting as a perpetual live-in maid/gardener/repairman.  Nice.

So, what I'm wondering here, is whether there are obvious problems with this?  Are there places in the code that don't check for this situation (i.e. sim is living on an apartment base lot, not a sublot)?  Are there horrible errors/corruption that could occur because of this?

The possible use I was thinking for this is that if it works, it would be possible to start a sim from absolute rock bottom - you would still need some money for food though, at least initially, until you started getting some money from a job.  Also, if you moved in a sim and discovered that they were still a small amount short of what they needed to rent their apartment, you could have them squat for a while to get the money they needed.  This would also be a way to sort of approximate the the homeless vagrant thing you can do in TS3.  Not being able to go to community lots kind of sucks, but if there's no real important reason why that was disabled (is there one?), it probably wouldn't be too hard to change that.

[J. M. Pescado]

I don't really recommend this, due to the aforementioned inability to go anywhere. There is also the fact that TS2 is not a twitch game, and therefore, anything possible is easy, if boring. A sim that has a limited environment, cannot leave, and cannot alter its environment will either die, if you are bad at this, or be very boring as you settle into a repetitive grind.

[rufio]

Well, I imagine that most of the drawbacks could be modded out - I guess I'm really asking whether doing so would be a terrible idea likely to cause BFBVFS, or if there's a very good reason to not have a sim living on an apartment base lot.  In any case, the point of this obviously isn't to be a long-term situation, but a way to start a sim off with nearly nothing before getting them settled into a better place.  I'm sure you could make a macro to play the game for you in the optimal way, but as I'm sure you can appreciate, TS2 isn't really a game that you strive to be optimal at, at least not if you want to have fun with it.  Also, something I really liked about the idea of apartments was that they made having families with very little money more viable, but not in a way that made it too easy - before then, if you had less than a certain amount of money it was next to impossible to even set up, and once you had enough to set up a lot properly, there was no challenge, and (more importantly, IMO) no real feeling of having accomplished anything.  This is just taking that a step further, really.  It may well not turn out to be terribly interesting, but I want to know that doing this isn't going to break stuff before I go and mess with it more seriously.

[Zazazu]

Honestly, you'd be better off just designing a slum apartment for your sim so that they would have full mobility. In a building I had on my old install, I had a studio that was about 7x4 with a 2x2 bath attached. It rented for just over $100/week. I can't recall the downpayment, but it couldn't have been that much. In order for the sims to level up (reproduce), they had to get a new place. I just barely made it, finding a third spouse for the Free Love seed when they had two cribs squeezed in that tiny spot. In addition to having no space, the lack of spots for skilling equipment adds to the challenge.

Always apply the magic wand to your apartment buildings. It makes a huge difference.

[rufio]

Honestly, you'd be better off just designing a slum apartment for your sim so that they would have full mobility.

Yes - I thought about simply making 1x1 "apartments" in order to accomplish the same effect, but that seemed rather inelegant, and the fact that you could save the lot without moving the sim in made it seem like there might be another way to do it.  The downpayment is most of the issue I have with the apartments, actually - I can appreciate why it's necessary, but I was kind of hoping that the basic fixtures would be more or less immobile, like they are in real apartments.  Forcing sims to be content with fixtures that are not actually part of the apartment (that they therefore cannot sell) approximates this.

In order for the sims to level up (reproduce), they had to get a new place. I just barely made it, finding a third spouse for the Free Love seed when they had two cribs squeezed in that tiny spot. In addition to having no space, the lack of spots for skilling equipment adds to the challenge.

Well, my play style is very different than yours - my sims don't generally reproduce very often, or very early in their lives.  The few that are currently getting pregnant every other minute are actually the ones who live in huge houses with more money than they could ever need, for some reason.  Every once in a while someone has an unwanted baby that can't be easily supported, but then it just gets sold to the child labor camp after it levels up and can take care of itself, after a fashion.  Unwanted spawn are hard to deal with, but after the first couple unwanted spawn challenges it just wasn't that interesting to me anymore, and playing the game as an endless series of child-rearing episodes isn't really what I want.

Always apply the magic wand to your apartment buildings. It makes a huge difference.

Ahh, I always forget to use the magic wand - I'll have to remember to do that.  I didn't realize it would have that much of an effect on apartments, either.

[J. M. Pescado]

THe furniture cost obviously has to be present if you are trying any kind of poverty challenge. If I changed it back so that the game didn't charge for the furniture, the entire point of having apartments for the poor sims would be undermined because they'd receive that same chunk of money as free cash, and wouldn't be POOR anymore.

[rufio]

As I said, I understand why you added that.  If you're limited to using furniture in the common area, though, you don't get charged for it, and you also can't sell it, so you're not getting anything for free.  If things like toilets and showers and fridges that are actually in the apartment at move-in time worked the same way (you could use them, and maybe even move them, but not sell them, or at least not sell them for money) than you wouldn't have to be charged for them either.

[Liz]

If you're limited to using furniture in the common area, though, you don't get charged for it, and you also can't sell it, so you're not getting anything for free.

Sure, you are. You're getting free use of furniture for which you didn't pay.

[rufio]

If you're limited to using furniture in the common area, though, you don't get charged for it, and you also can't sell it, so you're not getting anything for free.

Sure, you are. You're getting free use of furniture for which you didn't pay.

Yes, but you would be getting it even if you did have furniture in the apartment.  In any case, since it's more or less public property, you have to share it with other people, can't replace it if some stray comes by and destroys it, etc.  IMO, if you can't (legally) sell something, you don't really own it.  Pes is worried about free money, and if you can't sell the things you "get" for free, there's no free money involved.

[Zazazu]

Free use of an object that would cost money is free money. Either way, you can't get away from the fact that the squatter would have the use of a $200 couch that he didn't pay for. So what if he can't sell it? My sims don't typically redecorate, they move. We may have different playstyles as far as reproduction goes, but I get the impression that we both try to be restrictive assholes to our sims. Free use of objects in a safe environment for no cost isn't mean.

[rufio]

Well, any sim can go to a community lot and make free use of the amenities there, and I don't consider that excessive.  Of course, I don't download (or create) community lots with (say) harvestable produce or rewards objects on them, or the absolute best of whatever my sims need and can't afford - there actually has to be a reason for the stuff to be there.  (With the rise and spread of owned businesses, most casual/hangout community lots are no longer free to visit, but I still don't think it's cheating to have some free (=publicly owned) community lots as well.) Similarly, an apartment that tolerates squatters might have enough stuff in the common area for the squatters to survive, but it wouldn't be the best quality stuff, and I wouldn't have it any other way in my game, either.  The computer might be considered too much, but there's not really a lot of benefits you get from a computer that you don't get from a phone, except for job searching.  I have a hack that limits available jobs for non-uni sims, and any sim that can afford to pay for uni won't be squatting anyway.  The computer actually wouldn't be necessary if there were a way to get a newspaper, or another way for sims to apply for jobs.  Hmmm - I seem to remember a job board on MTS2 that could probably be hacked into something more interesting and less cheaty.

[Mootilda]

Somehow, this conversation has gotten away from "will it work?" to "should someone play like this?".  I'm interested in the answer to the first question.  The second question seems irrelevant; different people have different ways of playing.

I've moved sims onto an apartment lot without rentng an apartment before, but only temporarily (until I can get enough families onto the lot to fill up the available apartments; thus avoiding needless spawning of townies).  I'd like to know whether it's safe to leave them on the lot without renting an apartment.  If not, what kind of problems occur and when?

The job board on MTS isn't really cheaty.  Your sims can't get any job that they couldn't get in-game without cheating.

[rufio]

I've moved sims onto an apartment lot without rentng an apartment before, but only temporarily (until I can get enough families onto the lot to fill up the available apartments; thus avoiding needless spawning of townies).  I'd like to know whether it's safe to leave them on the lot without renting an apartment.  If not, what kind of problems occur and when?

Well, saving the game with them on the lot (but not renting) seems to work, and doesn't seem to produce anything unexpected, though something bad could theoretically be happening behind the scenes.  Even if you don't save the lot, the sim stays there.  I've often moved sims onto an apartment lot and then off again immediately, for the purpose of seeing what the rent and down payment was going to be, or because I discovered that they needed more money.

The job board on MTS isn't really cheaty.  Your sims can't get any job that they couldn't get in-game without cheating.

It does let you choose from any job track, though (if I understand it right).  Also, since the purpose of the job board (in my hood) would probably be to find jobs for squatters who don't get the newspaper, or for sims who have had their first couple newspapers stolen due to unpopularity or general hostility and can't afford a computer, I'd want it to be less useful than the newspaper.  Maybe, instead of insta-hiring, they "put in an application" and then have to wait a few days to be approved.  I've also been wanting to make something to allow business-owning sims to "post" available jobs on community lots, so that visiting sims can accept them rather than just getting (sado)randomly rolled by the hiring phone menu.  I know you can just have your sim run around to different community lots and get a different set of hirables every time, but that seems kind of silly to me.

[J. M. Pescado]

Free use of an object that would cost money is free money.

No, free use of an object that would cost money is smart business sense! People do this all the time in real life. That's the entire point, really.

Free use of an object that would cost money is free money. Either way, you can't get away from the fact that the squatter would have the use of a $200 couch that he didn't pay for.

This would happen if he visited, say, a community lot, too.

So what if he can't sell it? My sims don't typically redecorate, they move. We may have different playstyles as far as reproduction goes, but I get the impression that we both try to be restrictive assholes to our sims. Free use of objects in a safe environment for no cost isn't mean.

There's no such thing as an UNSAFE environment in the Sims, really. Except if it's outside and raining, and you have Seasons. That's the only dangerous thing in the game, and it's a pretty isolated phenomenon. Everything else is almost mind-numbingly safe. Clearly, the goal here is cheapskatery rather than "trying to be mean", which is sort of a meaningless concept.

[Marvin Kosh]

I've also been wanting to make something to allow business-owning sims to "post" available jobs on community lots, so that visiting sims can accept them rather than just getting (sado)randomly rolled by the hiring phone menu.  I know you can just have your sim run around to different community lots and get a different set of hirables every time, but that seems kind of silly to me.

It's a lot easier to have the hiring Sim call the prospective employee to the place of work and hire them on the spot.  This has the advantage that you can do a whole bunch of hires in one go and never look at the ones on the menu.  The disadvantage is that the hiring Sim has to actually know the employee(s) well enough to invite them, or have some kind of teleporter.

[rufio]

It's a lot easier to have the hiring Sim call the prospective employee to the place of work and hire them on the spot.  This has the advantage that you can do a whole bunch of hires in one go and never look at the ones on the menu.  The disadvantage is that the hiring Sim has to actually know the employee(s) well enough to invite them, or have some kind of teleporter.

Actually, even with a teleporter, the hirer still has to know the hiree pretty well in order to successfully perform the "Hire" social.  It's extremely annoying.