The Legacy Challenge for TS3

[Grumblesnort]

I'm trying not to panic because my founder Ruby is 1 day away from turning to Adulthood and still doesn't have a partner. She/we wasted time on cultivating Beau Andrews only to find out that he is involved.

Break them up!

I agree. With the slim pickin's in the male population of Sunset Valley, I say it's every woman for herself!

...
Roofs? I just had a bed, one wall for the toilet, the toilet & shower for the longest time.

I'd actually originally had just the bed, but I wanted more a tent-like feel to it. The best I could do was a few columns and a roof that kept disappearing every few days when "auto-roof" would magically re-enable itself.

[Zazazu]

Did you completely gloss over more than my first sentence? I specifically stated that my first born had both traits chosen for her by the game due to a low-score pregnancy, and that one of the traits assigned was Friendly. I also stated a past child with one trait assigned due to mediocre pregnancy, with that trait being Genius.

From the way I understood it, bad pregnancy = two completely random traits, average pregnancy = one randomly selected good trait, good pregnancy = no random traits. Again, I could be wrong, I'm just explaining why I didn't think your experience negated what I believed.

Yes, and as I'm saying, the game selected the traits, because it was a bad pregnancy. I had no opportunity to roll.

[jaccirocker]

So you don't have to marry the partner? I hope not because errrm there's really not anyone that I want to marry in SV. I did start cultivating a relationship with a mail carrier at the latest cook out.

[rohina]

I have to say, I am surprised at the return to the micromanage-y, over-ruley ruleset as exemplified by Legacy Challenge Rules version 1. As soon as there as even one expansion, this is going to be utter chaos.

[MasterDinadan]

The only thing even remotely micro-managey is the bit about illegally obtained objects.  Just don't make a klepto.

[Budgie]

The only thing even remotely micro-managey is the bit about illegally obtained objects.  Just don't make a klepto.

Or if you do, make sure you know what they steal. That rule is only in place to prevent the One Fambly from getting too much money in the early parts of the game.

[rohina]

The only thing even remotely micro-managey is the bit about illegally obtained objects.  Just don't make a klepto.

Oh, right, Pinstar is a god, and it doesn't matter if his challenge became utterly unwieldy and he responded to comments by making spazztacular rules that were so complicated and contradictory people just ended up ignoring him. I was making a comment about the fact that the design of Legacy 2 was a lot better thought out, and this is disappointing.

[Budgie]

I was making a comment about the fact that the design of Legacy 2 was a lot better thought out, and this is disappointing.

Then what would you change? You never said specifically what you considered "micromanage-y".

[rohina]

It's the list of really specific rules like the "rich" and the "klepto". Those are where it is going to balloon with every single EP, you can tell from the design. At the moment, it is minor annoyance, but unless the framework is right at the start, it's a recipe for the same kind of disaster there was with Apocalypse.

Also, I have to say, given the way TS3 enforces legacy-style play, how necessary is it to articulate these nit picky rules?

[Pinstar]

It's the list of really specific rules like the "rich" and the "klepto". Those are where it is going to balloon with every single EP, you can tell from the design. At the moment, it is minor annoyance, but unless the framework is right at the start, it's a recipe for the same kind of disaster there was with Apocalypse.

Also, I have to say, given the way TS3 enforces legacy-style play, how necessary is it to articulate these nit picky rules?

I've learned my lesson when it comes to EPs bogging down my challenge. I can promise you that as the EPs come out, the Legacy Challenge will not evolve into some rules-laden monstrosity. Depending on the nature of the EPs, there will most likely be very few changes, if any, to the base challenge as we see it now. That being said, the Legacy Challenge is still evolving and any changes will be made with the maintenance of simplicity and flow in mind.

The Apocalypse Challenge, on the other hand, I make no apologies for. While the Legacy Challenge, at its heart, is supposed to be simple, easy to follow and score, the Apocalypse Challenge is supposed to be monstrously complex. The layers upon layers of specific, nit pickey rules in that challenge are needed to maintain its higher difficulty level (compared to the Legacy Challenge).

[rohina]

Well, that's a nice rewrite of history. Because it only got horrifically complex after you posted it here and people pwnt you.

[Budgie]

It didn't really help that new EPs came out and people ended up creating and improvising rules to fit new features until it became almost too complicated.

[Zazazu]

It's the list of really specific rules like the "rich" and the "klepto". Those are where it is going to balloon with every single EP, you can tell from the design. At the moment, it is minor annoyance, but unless the framework is right at the start, it's a recipe for the same kind of disaster there was with Apocalypse.

Also, I have to say, given the way TS3 enforces legacy-style play, how necessary is it to articulate these nit picky rules?

Personally, I'm not a fan of either rule. Like I said before, at gen four of an established neighborhood, everyone was considered rich. I'm already nearly to that level in my legacy 'hood, which was wiped before I began, and the eldest girl of the second generation is just a teen. As for the klepto rule, I can see what he was thinking, but in the end it's not going to make that much of a difference. The huge money-makers in the game come from one of three things: collecting, farming, and raises (both from promotions and from keeping at a top level job). At this point, my house value is at $70,831 and they have over $10k on hand. This is without doing any exploitive tricks I've learned so far.

This set of rules is unclear, but I don't think it's too restrictive overall. I just don't think he's spent enough time exploring the game to have made intelligent rules. He'll realize it. People will ask questions that point out easy exploits. He'll rewrite the rules, instead of saying "Yay, you, you've figured out an exploit". It's releasing the guidelines before having enough test time that makes things end up a confusing mess. As is, what he intends can be summed up quite simply:

1. Make sim to your own specifications.
2. Place them on a lot and make sure they only have $1300 on hand.
3. Hit random button for all traits of kids born in game.
4. Spawn children. Play game until your family has reached its 10th generation.
5. Don't sell stuff you steal for money (bad rule, see other exploits being just as valid and less time consuming).
6. Don't marry a sim your family has identified as rich (bad rule, see exploding house worth and fail computation of game).
7. Score as such:
    a. One point per generation
    b. One point per LTW fulfilled (no dupes)
    c. One point per sim with portrait painted & displayed
    d. One point per $100k in furnished home value (dumb, encourages hoarding money and adding a bunch of shit at the last minute. Use furnished + cash, maybe increase the $/point, or don't, since there's no cap)
    e. One point per 100k aspiration points earned by any single sim
8. No using modifications that make the game easier, and no extending life through cheat or in-game means.
9. Once you're dead, you're dead. No resurrecting sims, you tree-hugging hippy.
10. Only sims who are part of the family tree kept by the game and reside in the house are eligible to contribute points.
11. You can do optional challenges, but they don't count for points, so why the hell do you care?

Yeah, it's not that much different than gameplay as designed. There's just these points. That don't matter. That don't have a cap. That have no real meaning.

[rufio]

Actually, I can see how selling stolen stuff might be an exploit during the first generation - I had a CAS sim who was Evil and Ambitious, and to whom I gave the multi-tasker perk.  She shot right up through the Criminal-Evil career track and brought home some kind of $12,000 statue at a point when the family funds were not much more than $1,000.  This would have even more effect for a sim who started with a big empty lot and only $1300, assuming they didn't marry rich.  That's another rule that I think it would probably make sense to confine to the first one or two generations.  Personally, I plan to disregard both as soon as my family gets to the point where they have money coming out their ears.

[rohina]

This reaction is exactly why articulating the rules is stupid. How many people actually keep score in Legacy challenges anyway? The reason I made the Beancounters beancounters was because none of the Legacies I read paid attention to the points once they got all complicated.

[J. M. Pescado]

See, this is why I have challenges that are purely about avoiding negative points. You don't then need to worry about trying to whore your score to win, because you can't. Like in real life, the only thing you can manage is not to fail.

[moxyc]

I think to make this more of a challenge, the klepto rule should be extended to all collectibles.  No selling of anything you find.  Also, I'm surprised that there aren't points for collecting one of every kind of butterfly, gem, bug, etc.  That being said, I appreciate the work that went into creating this challenge, so thank you

[rufio]

Also, I'm surprised that there aren't points for collecting one of every kind of butterfly, gem, bug, etc.

I am really glad that is not the case, actually.  Collecting is a fucking rut.

[taiki_exe]

Pinstar,
Excuse for my bad English, but why rules so short and little bit boring? I expected charge of points for achievements in skills, a collecting, dialogue and work... It seems to Me, not so difficultly to play if corrected such unlimited. And in fact when a little complex - it is not enough and interesting. In fact for each skill there are categories of achievements, you did not think to charge points and on it?

[jaccirocker]

Erm, this question may seem silly, but I wanted to know if it is cheating to change lifetime wants or traits of Founder with lifetime happiness points. I'm pretty sure that even thought it isn't stated clearly changing the traits is verboten, but I decided it wouldn't hurt to ask.


Also, if anyone is interested my founder seems to be a late bloomer. She had twins girls and is pregnant again, still not married but we're ok with that.

ETA: Zazazu, I like the way you've done your family tree, did you use a template or just do it all free hand?

[Roflganger]

Erm, this question may seem silly, but I wanted to know if it is cheating to change lifetime wants or traits of Founder with lifetime happiness points. I'm pretty sure that even thought it isn't stated clearly changing the traits is verboten, but I decided it wouldn't hurt to ask.

As said before, if you don't like how your rolls turned out, you can purchase the "Mid Life Crisis" perk to get a shot at re-rolling your traits.

I'd say it's fair game.

[hanri]

I really enjoyed the Legacy Challenge for TS2, even though it did get awfully convoluted and silly. But the new version is really... boring. I know the goal was to simplify the challenge, but... really, where is the fun supposed to be? I think for myself I'm going to adapt the TS2 scoring system, because for TS3 there's nothing that really differs between the 'challenge' gameplay and normal gameplay, other than painting a ridiculous number of portraits.

[Zazazu]

ETA: Zazazu, I like the way you've done your family tree, did you use a template or just do it all free hand?

I use the in-game ones as a template, but have to do heavy tweaking to get all the in-laws in, and of course add names and breeding relationship symbols.

The 1st gen spouse got his LTW, to be Emperor of Evil. Immediately after he got home, all three girls rolled the want to be Leader of the Free World. I had him quit before the harmony was further destroyed.

[caterpillar]

It's the list of really specific rules like the "rich" and the "klepto". Those are where it is going to balloon with every single EP, you can tell from the design. At the moment, it is minor annoyance, but unless the framework is right at the start, it's a recipe for the same kind of disaster there was with Apocalypse.

Also, I have to say, given the way TS3 enforces legacy-style play, how necessary is it to articulate these nit picky rules?

Personally, I'm not a fan of either rule. Like I said before, at gen four of an established neighborhood, everyone was considered rich. I'm already nearly to that level in my legacy 'hood, which was wiped before I began, and the eldest girl of the second generation is just a teen.

This issue is what has stopped me from loading my legacy neighborhood since I started it. I started it in Riverview with all the regulars there. Every single person my Sim met she immediately identified as rich. I've thought about starting over in a wiped neighborhood, but just haven't bothered with it. As you say, even in a clean neighborhood, everyone is rich by generation 4, or earlier. Stupid rule is stupid.

ETA: The reason I think the no marrying rich Sims rule is stupid is not because it's hard to find one that isn't rich, it's that just because your Sim identifies another Sim as being rich doesn't mean that Sim will bring in oodles of money when married in. I've married in tons of 'rich' Sims that brought in only 1-2k. It's a pointless rule.

[Grumblesnort]

...
ETA: The reason I think the no marrying rich Sims rule is stupid is not because it's hard to find one that isn't rich, it's that just because your Sim identifies another Sim as being rich doesn't mean that Sim will bring in oodles of money when married in. I've married in tons of 'rich' Sims that brought in only 1-2k. It's a pointless rule.

I partially ignored that rule myself. I started in Sunset Valley, where the Roomies household is. Every one of them is "rich", but I managed to have my sim woo and marry Cycl0n3 Sword (with a subsequent number-to-letter name change) without ever finding out that he was rich. That wasn't easy. He brought in only a little over $2k with around $1k in tax breaks and benefits. Hardly a pot of gold. It's silly that a house full of people who aren't related by any means and actually call their household "Roomies" would be considered rich just because they have enough bedrooms to fit everyone.