Important notice from the GRAMMAR POLICE. Plz read. This means you.

[rufio]

No one was MAKING this person take English. They were encouraging her, merely because she had expressed an interest in it, and in spite of a bunch of issues that made it pretty much contra-indicated.

Ah, see, you mentioned grade 12, so I thought this was high school.  Maybe you should be a little more clear.  If it's college, though, I can actually understand it - she's paying them money to take certain classes, and I can see them getting worried about lawsuits and crap if they tell her, "You don't have the mental ability to major in English" or something to that effect.  Idiotic?  Sure, but I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about it.  Passing people randomly because they want to be writers is not something I have ever heard of before, though.  Unless this is something totally different and you have once again failed to communicate what you mean. 

What the hell is your argument, now? That my experience is nothing but anecdotal?

I think you need some help with reading comprehension.  My point was that I see you whining about this all the time and wanted to know what, specifically you were whining about, and since asking you simple questions doesn't seem to work, this is my only option to get you to tell me something real.

I asked you another question too, which I'm actually interested in hearing the answer to, but once again you have completely ignored it in favor of venting your spleen.  I guess I will have to attack you on your abilities to analyze and identify language disorders among your students in order to get an answer to that one.

[jolrei]

I think you need some help with reading comprehension.  My point was that I see you whining about this all the time and wanted to know what, specifically you were whining about, and since asking you simple questions doesn't seem to work, this is my only option to get you to tell me something real.

Not sure I understand this.  See, she did actually tell the story of her office mate, who had a student with a learning disability who wanted to be an English major, but couldn't write a sentence, and yet was being passed along, likely to her detriment...

Seems slightly more than merely anecdotal to me.

I asked you another question too, which I'm actually interested in hearing the answer to, but once again you have completely ignored it in favor of venting your spleen. 

Yes, perhaps, but you invite people to vent spleens.  In fact, if this was a desirable skill, you could become rich running spleen venting therapy sessions.

[Jelenedra]

No one was MAKING this person take English. They were encouraging her, merely because she had expressed an interest in it, and in spite of a bunch of issues that made it pretty much contra-indicated.

Ah, see, you mentioned grade 12, so I thought this was high school. 

Do you even READ what people write? It was directed at YOU for fuck's sake.

I meant exactly what I said. It's not a conspiracy, it's a misguided educational approach. I don't think there's any mystery about it, however wrongheaded I think it is. Students with learning disabilities are being encouraged to think that they can do whatever they want, to the point where my office mate got a student in his class who seriously could not write a sentence, but who wanted to be an English major so she could be a writer. Her language and cognitive disabilities were so severe that she was never going to be able to pass a Grade 12 equivalent English class, but teaching aide after teaching aide had passed her along, giving her the idea that not being able to write a simple sentence (and we are talking "the cat sat on the mat") was not going to hold her back.

If you are not going to READ, then stop fucking arguing. No one else had a problem understanding what rohina meant there. Reading comprehension failure.

So... rake in face, or are you the new fingers-in-ears?

[rohina]

I said "Grade 12 equivalent" and "my office mate" who, oddly enough, also teaches in the same department at the same post-secondary institution. rufio, as usual, embodies that saying about assuming stuff. Do everyone a favour and go back and read the words in all my posts on this subject, in order, rather than your usual method of reading one word in 3 and then guessing the rest according to your rubric "rohina sucks and makes stuff up and I don't like her talking about things I haven't personally experienced because everything she says is supposed to be about me".

Look, rufio, I wasn't "whining" about anything. I was offering a comment on my experiences with students with Learning Disabilities. I don't know why you have a bug up your butt about my doing that, but apparently you do. I made it clear that I am speaking from personal and reported experiences, and what the scope of those experiences is. I offered an example of one of my students, and one of a colleague's. What is it, exactly that you have the problem with? Because it seems like your problem is "rohina expressed an opinion". The solution to this problem is for you to GTFO.

And to answer your question about what the student's specific disorder was, my response is "AH HA HA HA HA, you poor naive little rabbit." At this level, students are protected by FOIP and don't have to SAY what their disabilities are. At least, not to lowly beings like profs. We just have to accomodate the disability, not know what it is.

[Jelenedra]

I think it's fairly safe to say that rufio doesn't read other's people posts. She scans them for something she can nitpick and argue semantics on, and harps on it for ages to show off her intellimagence. Failing to see that, by not taking the time to properly read, she just makes herself look like a head peen waggling idiot.

[HomeschooledByTards]

My father was a 7th-8th grade teacher for fifteen years. He had a lot of LD students in his classes and he was required to adjust his classes accordingly. He had 30-40 students in each class, he had to challenge the bright kids, make it easy on the LD/Tards, keep the average kids happy, teach toward everyones individual learning style, and couldn't fail anyone. He had to do all of that without modifying his curriculum in any way (easier homework for the LD/Tards, harder work for the bright kids, etc). I honestly don't know how he did it. There is a lot of pressure on teachers to individualize their classes, while treating every child the same.

My brother and I were both diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder while we were in college. Instead of encouraging us to learn appropriate coping skills, my parents immediately petitioned my college to "help" my brother.  He has always had trouble with standardized tests that required bubbling in the answer on a separate sheet. He would frequently bubble two answers on one line, skip lines, etc. They wanted him to be allowed to have extra time on the exams and have someone to bubble in his answers for him, and possibly take notes for him.  They wanted me to be allowed to have extra time on exams as well, but I told them that I didn't need extra time (I was always the first or second student to finish).

The school refused, they claimed that they didn't have any sort of program set up to deal with learning disabilities and they were not going to set one up. My parents were pissed and threatened to sue. I think the only thing that stopped them was lack of money.

Both my brother and I ended up dropping out of school not too long after that. When I went back to school my parents suggested that I go to the Disability Support Services department at my school and get help. I refused, because I don't need help. It's a struggle to stay on task but I have learned how to cope, without medication, and how to be successful in spite of my "disability". My brother, if he does ever go back to school, will probably ask for help because he believes that he needs it.

[psikfreak]

Further, today's children are 'horrible' because their parents are to self-absorbed and incompetent to raise a child. Society makes excuses for those children, e.g. they come from underprivileged homes, etc. And finally because people like you wash their hands of them. It's so much easier than tackling a problem that you haven't created but could remedy.

Look again.


* Going back to lurk mode*

Why thank you Captain Obvious for proving the point I made in the very same post. Which, had you read it for the novel concept of 'content' you would have *hopefully* comprehended that part.

I can't speak for other areas of the world, however it has been my experience in our wonderful public education system here in the USA that it is now 'politically incorrect' and 'offensive' to call individuals with mental deficits 'retarded' or 'mentally retarded'. As a result of the pansy-ass hand-holding, heaven-forbid-we-'offend'-anyone-by-stating-the-truth attitude children who are retarded/mentally retarded are referred to as having 'learning delays/disabilities'.

Which is asinine, but may explain a bit of the confusion.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but every child grows up to be an adult who is expected to function to the best of their ability in the society which they live. Ignorance, stupidity, and deciding to not remedy either or learn on a conscious/subconscious level not being a sufficient reason for failing to function to the best of their ability. Then isn't taking children with actual learning delays/disabilities out of mainstream learning situations doing them a gross disservice? After they've somehow matriculated into adulthood how are they going to, for instance, gain employment? Take Rohina's padded room and flashing light scenario. What *average* employer is going to create a speshul room for an employee in an average position so that they can learn/function on the job?

Yay for public edumacation. It managed to identify the child's speshulness and adapt to it thereby hindering the child's ability to function in society as an adult!

It's like how Communism/Socialized Medicine/Dirty Mexicans/Neoconservative Jews are somehow taking over America, except that rohina isn't American, so the madness has clearly invaded Australia as well.

Oh, no. We're still totally a society of capitalistic democracy over here. Our current president just happens to believe in a federally organized and maintained compulsory health care system. That the top 10% should have to pay more in taxes because they have the temerity to earn more that the herd of shepul who pass for your average American these days. Let's not forget part of that process is the federal government determining whom is in said 10%, how much more they should have to pay, and taking it from them to fund 'social programs' to benefit the shepul. No, no, that does not sound at all like 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'.

If memory serves, and please correct me here if I'm wrong Rohina, Australia runs on the same schooling system as England. Therefore, when she said 'grade 12 equivalent' she meant first year of university there/fourth year of secondary school in the US.

[dramamine]

I can't speak for other areas of the world, however it has been my experience in our wonderful public education system here in the USA that it is now 'politically incorrect' and 'offensive' to call individuals with mental deficits 'retarded' or 'mentally retarded'. As a result of the pansy-ass hand-holding, heaven-forbid-we-'offend'-anyone-by-stating-the-truth attitude children who are retarded/mentally retarded are referred to as having 'learning delays/disabilities'.

When I read this, I was reminded about some commercial I saw about an awareness program to stop calling retarded people retarded. It had some goofy acronym for it. If I can find it or remember what it was called, I'll edit this post. It was just amazing when you watched it. It was so politically correct, you wanted to vomit.

[rohina]

I don't know why you all assume I am in Australia. I have said several times where I am.

[Jelenedra]

I don't know why you all assume I am in Australia. I have said several times where I am.

N00b making an assumption based on what RUFIO wrote. Big surprise there. rufio read that you USED to live in Australia, but only read the "live in Australia" part of the sentence and FAILED to notice the "used to."

Are we surprised?

[Lorelei]

When I read this, I was reminded about some commercial I saw about an awareness program to stop calling retarded people retarded.

We have discussed this awareness program here at MATY already. The consensus seemed to be that our Tards are altogether worse and well deserving of their Trashcans, scorn, Tard status and special titles, unlike those mentally retarded people / small-L 'tards out there who had the misfortune to be born that way but who can be pleasant to be around even if dim; and, also, This Is MATY, We Are Not Politically Correct, Take Your Butthurt Elsewhere.

If you have an interest in that sort of thing, the Search box will help you find the original discussion about this.

[dramamine]

We have discussed this awareness program here at MATY already. The consensus seemed to be that our Tards are altogether worse and well deserving of their Trashcans, scorn, Tard status and special titles, unlike those mentally retarded people / small-L 'tards out there who had the misfortune to be born that way but who can be pleasant to be around even if dim; and, also, This Is MATY, We Are Not Politically Correct, Take Your Butthurt Elsewhere.

If you have an interest in that sort of thing, the Search box will help you find the original discussion about this.

Ah, I apologize. I hadn't considered that this particular commercial would have been brought up here and discussed in length. I had picked up on that the Tard titles and such weren't being used in a fashion to bash those who are actually mentally retarded. Also, I enjoy the fact MATY isn't politically correct and encourages people to think. I appreciate the guidance, Lorelei, and thank you.

[TheQuietOne]

It's interesting to see that opinion on special treatment of children with different levels of ability is so inconsistent. Accommodating needs of children with LD is seen as society pampering them, at the same time catering to the needs of advanced students is seen as a duty of educational system.

Everyone deserves a fulfilled and dignified life. That is all. If we can provide help, than by all means let's do it. And if by trying to help people lead a better life we reshape the society a bit, than all the better. A norm is a norm till it's not.
 
There is, after all, a thing called solidarity, n'est pas?

[socurious]

It's interesting to see that opinion on special treatment of children with different levels of ability is so inconsistent. Accommodating needs of children with LD is seen as society pampering them, at the same time catering to the needs of advanced students is seen as a duty of educational system.

I believe the point is that the "accommodations" that are being used to help "level the playing field" are inconsistent, impractical, and ineffective.  What is actually being observed is that the LD students are being passed along without being able to perform the tasks required to advance to the next level.  These "accommodations" are consuming time, effort, space, and financial resources that could otherwise be used to benefit those who are capable of learning and performing at the determined successful levels.  I don't believe anyone, especially an educator, would want another to go without education.  The argument is  having realistic goals as opposed to encouraging someone with no spatial ability that they can successfully walk a tight-rope.

What is this "caterng to the needs of advanced students" to which you refer?  I have never experienced any "catering" to an individual who works hard or has an innate ability to learn; the benefits they derive is completely earned.  In my experience, the needs of those who are advanced are neglected and ignored in order to accommodate those who need more help. 

Everyone deserves a fulfilled and dignified life. That is all. If we can provide help, than by all means let's do it. And if by trying to help people lead a better life we reshape the society a bit, than all the better. A norm is a norm till it's not.
 
There is, after all, a thing called solidarity, n'est pas?

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.  No one "deserves" anything unless he or she has earned it.  I will give my all of my efforts to help someone who is working hard to achieve his goals.  I will not, however, do the same for someone who thinks she is entitled to what I have earned, just because she breathes.

[rufio]

Not sure I understand this.  See, she did actually tell the story of her office mate, who had a student with a learning disability who wanted to be an English major, but couldn't write a sentence, and yet was being passed along, likely to her detriment...

Yes, after I harassed her about it.

I offered an example of one of my students, and one of a colleague's.

Thank you.

And to answer your question about what the student's specific disorder was, my response is "AH HA HA HA HA, you poor naive little rabbit." At this level, students are protected by FOIP and don't have to SAY what their disabilities are. At least, not to lowly beings like profs. We just have to accomodate the disability, not know what it is.

Surely you can be more specific than "unable to write a simple sentence."

Taking my sister out to dinner, BRB.  I'll get to the rest later.

[rohina]

It's interesting to see that opinion on special treatment of children with different levels of ability is so inconsistent. Accommodating needs of children with LD is seen as society pampering them, at the same time catering to the needs of advanced students is seen as a duty of educational system.

The issue here is that the playing field is not level, and that the needs of the advanced students are ignored in favour of those who are struggling. The most common example of this occurring is that brighter students are often required to mentor or tutor slower ones; this is seen as a solution to the problem of disparate abilities in the classroom, but effectively it only benefits the child being tutored, while the tutor is as bored and unchallenged by the material as he/she was previously.

@stupio, I gave an example well before you started charging around with your headpeen, actually. I gave the second one in response to a series of comments from other people, so don't act like you are somehow the saviour of debate.

With regard to the student who was not my student; no I can't be more specific. I saw one piece of her written work, which was basically a mess of unrelated words. The rest of the situation I knew about because my colleague discussed it with me. We have, oddly enough, a collegial atmosphere, where faculty discuss students and pedagogy with one another. No doubt you have some huge objection to this that you will drag out in your next response.

[MuertoElBarto]

With regard to the student who was not my student; no I can't be more specific. I saw one piece of her written work, which was basically a mess of unrelated words. The rest of the situation I knew about because my colleague discussed it with me. We have, oddly enough, a collegial atmosphere, where faculty discuss students and pedagogy with one another. No doubt you have some huge objection to this that you will drag out in your next response.

I suspect you were meant to answer with something more specific, so that your qualifications to make such a diagnosis could then be questioned.

I wish I had thought to insist on special treatment during my stellar four  5 1/2 years as an undergrad, as I am ambition-impaired, and my professors did nothing to accomodate my condition.

Edit: strikethrough doesn't play well with the number 4.

[rohina]

I wish I had thought to insist on special treatment during my stellar 4  5 1/2 years as an undergrad, as I am ambition-impaired, and my professors did nothing to accomodate my condition.

Yeah, you totally missed a chance there. My best student ever was the one this semester who went totally off on me for not accommodating her disability, even though she hadn't actually gotten around to requesting accommodations at that point.

[DrNerd]

Eh, even when you accommodate, they still whine that you didn't bend over quite far enough.  I had a girl who got mono halfway through the semester, extended the deadline for the third paper until the night before grades were due, and she gave me a paragraph and asked if she could have more time.  Uh, NO, grades are due at noon.  It took you three weeks to write this paragraph, so I won't hold my breath for a miracle.  Or you sit down and go through the paper with them line-by-line because they actually showed up during your office hours, which at least shows some initiative, and when they get the final paper back, they accuse you of hating them and wanting them to fail because you didn't rubber-stamp it with an A, and dislike the reply of, "I told you what to fix and how to do it; I have no control over whether or not you actually did it, and did it right."

And then there was this guy.  I'm not sure how he survived long enough to get into my class.  In the past, he probably would have been left for the wolves or sacrificed to the thunder god or something.
The assignment was to describe a meal in objective terms.  It was supposed to be 1-2 pages.  This is what he turned in:
"It is Thursday night or what my friends like to call "poker night" at their apartment.  It is midnight and after four hours of drinking beer and playing cards one of my friends mentions ordering food.  Even though the idea of food had not crossed my mind because of the focus on cards as soon as it is mentioned I immediately start to crave wings.  Me and a few of my friends call an order and minutes later the doorbell rings and the wings are here.  I smell the very framiliar and comforting smell of honey barbecue sauce which I have grown accustomed too after a few years at UMASS and many late nights out such as this one.  It smells similar to a sweetened form of ketchup.  My Friends and I open them and all conversations and focus from anything else end as we are all fixated by the food.  The strong smell of the sauce fills the room with the slight smell of the few pieces of celery from the box.  With the smell of beer and alcohohol still dwindling among us all smelling of wheat and yeast."

Oh yes.  It really is that bad.

[Jack Rudd]

Oh, no. We're still totally a society of capitalistic democracy over here. Our current president just happens to believe in a federally organized and maintained compulsory health care system. That the top 10% should have to pay more in taxes because they have the temerity to earn more that the herd of shepul who pass for your average American these days. Let's not forget part of that process is the federal government determining whom is in said 10%, how much more they should have to pay, and taking it from them to fund 'social programs' to benefit the shepul. No, no, that does not sound at all like 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'.

It sounds like the National Health Service in the United Kingdom. In the recent local and European elections, the party that dominated the United Kingdom was the Conservative party, a mostly socially-conservative, economically right-wing, establishment-supporting party. Despite its right-wing credentials, the Conservative party wouldn't dream of trying to abolish the NHS; that would be seen as electoral suicide over here. Socialism? You guys aren't even close.

(As a side note, I am told that the UK government actually pays less per person on health care than the US government does. Make of that what you will.)

[rufio]

To clarify my earlier assumptions that it was a high school - I made that assumption because I didn't realize there was any fucking way that something like this could happen in an actual college.  If it's true, I am as appalled as you are.  My best guess (given what you've told me) is that they simply want her tuition money, and they don't get it if they let her fail.  So they sell her a diploma that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  Capitalism at its best. 

N00b making an assumption based on what RUFIO wrote. Big surprise there. rufio read that you USED to live in Australia, but only read the "live in Australia" part of the sentence and FAILED to notice the "used to."

I haven't read this entire thread, but rohina has told me in the past that she did live in Australia, and that was what I was going by.  I don't recall her stating where she lived in this discussion so far.  If she did, then yes, I must have missed it.  Right now I don't have the leisure to spend a lot of time reading internet forums.  My apologies.

With regard to the student who was not my student; no I can't be more specific. I saw one piece of her written work, which was basically a mess of unrelated words. The rest of the situation I knew about because my colleague discussed it with me.

Ahh, so you never personally heard her speak, or anything like that?  Sounds like a syntax issue though.  My asking wasn't anything to do with you, by the way - I was just curious, since I am actually interested in this stuff, unlike you (apparently).  I don't know much about language-related LDs, so I certainly wasn't going to question whatever you came up with, but I learned about some stroke-induced language disabilities a few semesters ago and found it pretty fascinating.  New wrinkles in the brain, and all that.

[rohina]

To clarify my earlier assumptions that it was a high school - I made that assumption because I didn't realize there was any fucking way that something like this could happen in an actual college.  If it's true, I am as appalled as you are.  My best guess (given what you've told me) is that they simply want her tuition money, and they don't get it if they let her fail.  So they sell her a diploma that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  Capitalism at its best. 

So you admit that you don't really read what I post, but just make up stuff in your head about my motives and the truthfulness of my statements? Awesome.

[rufio]

If you make a blanket statement that contains no actual information that looks just like a mindless rant about Communism/whatever the fad is now, yes, I am going to be skeptical until you actually back it up with something that looks genuine.

[Assmitten]

Communism WOT? What are you even talking about, rufio?

[rohina]

If you make a blanket statement that contains no actual information that looks just like a mindless rant about Communism/whatever the fad is now, yes, I am going to be skeptical until you actually back it up with something that looks genuine.

CITATION NEEDED. Where is this "mindless statement"?