Any Decent Custom Hair?

[Ness]

the alienware computer is most definitely completely useless in uni.

[Motoki]

The tile guideline as far as I know was more to give a higher limit to larger stuff than anything technical to do with the number of tiles use. It's a decent guideline but you also need to take other things into account like the relative size and complexity of an object too. I would be more lenient to say a large complex one tiled statue than I would be with a tiny flower. Also relatively simple boxey or squarish objects shouldn't need to be high poly at all no matter how many tiles they take up. A large plain 3 tiled flat square poster does not need 800 vertices per tile and shouldn't be anywhere near that count.

As for objects not causing a problem if not used on lots, for the most part I believe that to be the case, particularly with slowness. However I have had at least one instance of an object causing a lot to not load when the object didn't even exist on the lot. I have no idea if that was related to the polygon count at all or just something messed up about that object but if I recall correctly that was a high count object. I'm not saying that high poly objects will necessarily cause problems loading or anything like that, but the game definitely preloads at startup so it seems like it might be a possibility. At very least it won't help your load times, but that's a necessary evil anyway when you deal with a lot of downloads.

Maxis frequently does not follow their own guidelines as you guys found out. I don't use the Punta because the count is just so much higher compared to the other cars, even the sports car, and I don't really see where it looks all that more complex. Someone said it might be due to the logo and I suppose that could well be the case.

I do use the alienware even though it is a bit highish, and I use the hacked one from MTS2 with the college stuff. I pretty much have one per house at most though and I definitely wouldn't make an internet cafe full of them. :O

[ZephyrZodiac]

Well, you understand all this polygon stuff better than me, Motoki!  I mean I know just about what they are, and why too many of them is a no-no, but I have to admit I've also downloaded one or two things claiming low poly and found they were also low in visual attractiveness!  I must admit, I'm more worried about high poly hair meshes and dining chairs than I am about high poly beds.  (Mainly because the chairs tend to be used in larger numbers, and the hair goes everywhere the sim goes!)

As to the alienware - I rarely use it these days.  Since it isn't any use in Uni, I avoid it, and mainly use the laptop from 4ESF2 for my students as it seems to go wrong less often than the cheap one, but if yours is much lower poly, I might consider that too.

[Motoki]

Oh yeah, with me blabbing about the counts it would help if I posted them on my own stuff huh? 

Anyhow, it's really low, it's basically two rectangles and a mouse heh. The face count is 366 and the vertex count is 256 so I suppose if someone's concerned about counts and really wants something with the Alienware brand name that has the university functions they could go for that.

And I agree with you on the beds. I'm far less strict on what I let slide for beds and sofas and such since they aren't likely to be used many times on a lot. That's not to say I will use one with 50k polygons or anything but I'm much more careful about stuff like kitchen chairs, lights, flowers, windows, fences etc since those will likely be used many times over on a lot and even one of those objects that's moderate in the count can add up real fast multipled many times over.

Hairs are kind of like that too but you have some more control over that. Although, I've heard hairs set up with the Maxis genetic colors will show up on townies, but very few people set their hair up that way anyhow. Oh and my fro's pretty low too, but then again I didn't add or remove any polys from the Maxis male fro' I just changed the shape. It's 1092 faces and 599 vertices.

[ZephyrZodiac]

Unlike those beautiful dreadlocks!  (I've installed them and created a family who all have them!  Haven't played them yet, so I'll have to do so and report back if they cause probs.)

[Motoki]

I had his short dreads a while back on one sim and didn't seem to have any noticable problems. That hair I believe was in the 6k face range. But it was also on a very small lot (Numenor's 2x2 A frame special) and only one other sim was living there and she had regular Maxis hair. I think having that one somewhat high poly hair on that tiny lot still wasn't as big as having a big assed lot filled with junk on it heh so a lot of it depends on how you are playing too.

[ZephyrZodiac]

So when he gets rich and moves to a big house and marries a Fortune sim wife, then he'll have to go for one of Hairfish's short crops instead!

[speedreader]

Okay, help me out here.  How do I find the poly count on a hair?  I opened one in SimPE and poked around but without knowing what I am looking for I'm kind of lost.  Thanks for explaining.

[MokeyHokey]

It works the same as checking on an object.  You have to open the mesh, not a texture.  I think it's the first option--Geometric Data Container, then click on the line in the righthand box, and the poly/vertex count shows up beneath.  If it's really big, it might take a bit. 

[speedreader]

Okay, here is what I find for one of the meshes in my download file.  I am assuming I am interested in the "Models" numbers, not the one's below?  There are check boxes in front of all the "hair" lines and the top one is checked.  Thanks again for explaining to me.  My given name is Denise and I learned a long time ago that if I wrote my name too fast it sometimes came out Dense!!!

Models (Faces=832, Vertices=530):
hair (Face Count=30, Vertex=24)
hair_alpha9 (Face Count=30, Vertex=24)
hair_alpha5 (Face Count=30, Vertex=24)
hair_alpha7 (Face Count=176, Vertex=111)
hair_alpha3 (Face Count=176, Vertex=111)

[Motoki]

The ones below are basically separate pieces of the mesh and when added together should equal the numbers listed after Models, but yes you really want to look at the Models numbers because that's the total.

Don't feel bad, we weren't born knowing any of this stuff, we all have to start somewhere.

[speedreader]

So, if I understand this correctly, my 832 Faces = less than 1k and is okay to use? 

  I hate feeling dumb.

[Motoki]

Yes that's fine, that's a quite low count.

[nectere]

Motoki,

I still havent gotten around to messing with hair but I do have a exnem mesh that sorely needs fixing and its my favorite hairstyle. (Its an updo thing but with good anims and usually find its way on all the nannies) Of course however it has a big gap at the back of the neck, am I supposed to just stretch the mesh down to cover the gap or am I add on to the mesh to cover it? Someone said the gaps were a transparency issue which led me to believe they were speaking of the alpha and textures etc but I cant figure out how editing that will make a difference. So could you go back to the part about fixing gaps and drop a few hints? I'd be really greatful!

[Motoki]

I'd be afraid adding something to it might screw up the animations but you could try it. If you added it as a separate piece it may not but I definitely wouldn't add more polys straight onto that piece.

Stretching it would work, but also stretches the texture unless you update the UVmap (which is basically a blueprint that tells the game how the texture is to be laid out on the mesh). I've seen a lot of people just stretch hair or clothes or whatever but I'm picky about that sort of thing and most times it ends up looking terrible.

Oh and I forgot to mention if you add a new piece you'll have to assign a UV map and texture to it, though you can reuse one of the existing textures.

If it truly is just a transparency issue then messing with the alpha channels may fix it. You should be able to just export the alpha in SIMPE and then mess around with it and reimport your changed one over the original (save a backup first of course). If that's truly what the problem is then that's probably the easiest way to go, but messing with alphas can be a pain because you'll have to keep running back to the bodyshop and see if how the changes actually look.

[baratron]

OK, Motoki - a question. I've downloaded a hairstyle here that is available for multiple ages. So in SimPE, there are 3 different meshes that get used: cm, tm & am.

When you talk about it being "bad" for a hairstyle to have, say, over 2000 polygons - does that apply only to the age group that is currently selected, or to the entire thing? I don't know whether the game only loads the mesh for the age group in question, or if it loads all of them together.

The cm mesh has 238 polygons, the tm mesh has 550, and the am mesh has 546. So 546 polygons for an adult hair would fit firmly in the "low poly" camp, whereas 546+550+238 = 1334 polygons is getting a bit clunkier. Which number should I use as my guideline?

Thanks!

Edit: Gratuitous swearwords! I downloaded a statue of Bender from Futurama from MTS2, and noticed that one of the comments said "This was just ripped from Poser". Opened it in SimPE: 11282 polygons! You are so not going in my game!

Further edit: 1662 polygons for an earring? (not even earrings, it's just one). On a sim that also has custom hair & custom clothing meshes? I'm thinking potential for badness? Or shall I just accept this sim as a one-off? (he's one of my real-person pop star sims)

[Motoki]

  And you know, most of that Poser stuff has license agreements on it too. Some of it is also pay content and not supposed to be distributed. At very least even those most lenient Poser creators I've come across want acknowlegement as the original creator. But no one in the sims community seems to do that. I've seen people post Poser meshes and not even mention that it was Poser at all and then have multiple people tell them how great and talented they are and of course they neglected to mention they didn't make the mesh. The ironic thing is, if anyone did that to them my god all hell would break loose! And it has before in the past too. For a community that's so fiercely protective of its work, this community doesn't seem to give a hot damn about ripping stuff off of other communities. Apparently, as long as it's not a mesh someone else made for TS2, it's fair game.

The other thing is that people aren't getting that Poser is a still render program. It renders the scene in 3D once so polygons aren't such an issue. The Sims 2 is constantly rendering its stuff on screen at 30 plus frames per second and it's computing other stuff too like various code. It's a totally different environment and has a whole lot more going on than just taking a single snapshot.

/soapbox

Okay, regarding the ages, the count the matters is pretty much whatever the current age is. The game is only going to render the hair for a specific age, it won't render all the ages hairs at once. So if you have a hair that you like in the child version with a decent count but then say the teen has a high count, you can always change the hair when the turn into a teen or just before and it shouldn't be a problem.

Oh and regarding that rock star sim, I'd check every damned custom mesh that was on him, but that's just me heh.

[baratron]

It transpires that he's actually ok - the earring mesh I looked at was the wrong one. His earring has ~480 polygons, and his hair has 806.

However, some of my objects are terrifying. I have some lovely stackable objects that look like wardrobes from An.onymous.SimSite - ~1300 polys each, and you can stack them up to 3 high per square, making a total of 3900 polygons.

A one-square cupboard with a glass front and pots from A.Well-known.SimSite - 6500 polygons! I trusted that creator to know what they were doing, as they've been using a 3D modelling program to make their objects since Sims 1 - but nothing seems to be optimised at all. I'm having to seriously rethink some of my decorating, because the particular set that the cupboard came from is lovely, but all the objects in it except the actual tables & counters are way way over 800 polygons per square. I have a high-end computer - now - but by the time I have 5 or 6 Sims 2 EPs on it, it won't be anymore. And if I have those objects in houses with sims with custom hair & clothing...

Various (piano) keyboards from various places - all around ~3300 polygons. At least keyboards tend to be 2-4 square items, so it gets averaged out.

More creators really should post their polygon counts online, and the information that it's important should be propagated more widely, and not just in English :-/.

[Motoki]

Heh, well the only other language I can speak even a little bit is Japanese, and I haven't really used it for several years and am pretty crappy at that even, but everyone else is free to preach on.

[Hairfish]

I've seen people post Poser meshes and not even mention that it was Poser at all and then have multiple people tell them how great and talented they are and of course they neglected to mention they didn't make the mesh.

I felt really bad when I found out that kind of thing was going on. I went to several Poser sites, and was floored by how many of those meshes I recognized...and I've never used Poser myself! I immediately went through my downloads and deleted entire sites' collections, feeling downright sick the whole time. My scruples felt very bruised.

Since then, I've become more careful about what I download, and where it comes from.

[Bangelnuts]

I've seen people post Poser meshes and not even mention that it was Poser at all and then have multiple people tell them how great and talented they are and of course they neglected to mention they didn't make the mesh.

I felt really bad when I found out that kind of thing was going on. I went to several Poser sites, and was floored by how many of those meshes I recognized...and I've never used Poser myself! I immediately went through my downloads and deleted entire sites' collections, feeling downright sick the whole time. My scruples felt very bruised.

Since then, I've become more careful about what I download, and where it comes from.

I download from all over the place but if a mesh is needed for and item I wont download the item unless the mesh maker is given proper credit if it isnt the creation of the person who did the recolor or hair . I down loaded a toddler hairstyle  and the mesh was Natrobo's  and kudos to the recolorer the credited and linked to Natrobo's mesh. I hate it when I get a mesh etc  where proper credits arent given. and I will ddelete items when I discover that to be the case.

[Motoki]

Yes well I hate to say it, but if that's your policy then I suspect you'd have to delete most of your files as most of us would. It's not easy to model hair and most that I've seen has been 'borrowed' or borrowed and modified. Trouble is, if we don't browse Poser sites and 3Dcafe, TurboSquid, Renderosity etc etc. then we'll probably never even know if a mesh was borrowed from there because most of the 'creators' sure aren't talking.

It's the dirty little secret of the Sims 2 community that no one wants to talk about.

[Bangelnuts]

Yes well I hate to say it, but if that's your policy then I suspect you'd have to delete most of your files as most of us would. It's not easy to model hair and most that I've seen has been 'borrowed' or borrowed and modified. Trouble is, if we don't browse Poser sites and 3Dcafe, TurboSquid, Renderosity etc etc. then we'll probably never even know if a mesh was borrowed from there because most of the 'creators' sure aren't talking.

It's the dirty little secret of the Sims 2 community that no one wants to talk about.

Im aware that most meshes are borrowed from elsewhere in the community.but when i speak of creator .Im not talking about the original designer. most creators have altered the borrowed mesh considerably after borrowing it  that being the case if you download the altered mesh and have problems with it  its easier to contact the alterer if proper credits are given.thats why I tend not to keep a file without credits given to the creator of the hair or dress or whatever item it is. the original maker of the mesh isnt the one that modified it.....

[Motoki]

I've seen meshes literally taken exactly as they are in many cases from other sites and simply convertered. Even if a mesh is altered considerably, it's common courtesy to at least mention the original creator. If someone took a mesh someone else made in the Sims 2 community and altered it considerably they'd have a fit! How many times how you seen 'Do not clone, recolor, alter, upload to the Exchange...bla bla bla' notices when you've downloaded something? Because I see it all the time. Also, a lot of those original meshes have user agreements that explicity state they are not to be modified and redistributed.

With all due respect Bagelnuts, I think that's a pretty crappy attitude. It seems to be 'As long as the person is in the Sims 2 community, they must be credited, otherwise it doesn't matter' and I just don't agree with that. If we as a community and if the creators in the community want respect then we must respect ALL creators and their content no matter what the source. Otherwise we are all hyppocrites.

[IgnorantBliss]

Various (piano) keyboards from various places - all around ~3300 polygons. At least keyboards tend to be 2-4 square items, so it gets averaged out.

More creators really should post their polygon counts online, and the information that it's important should be propagated more widely, and not just in English :-/.

3300 polygons for a 4-tile object is not bad at all, in my opinion. The original Maxis piano has over 3000 polygons, as well. But, yes, I agree in general it is important to keep an eye on the polygon/vertex counts.

When I started up my site, I considered posting update information in more than one language, but since I only speak two languages fluently, I would have needed someone to translate full sentences for me every time I update my site. And then which languages should you include besides English? German, French, Spanish, Portuguese? That amount of text will clutter up your site pretty fast, and will still not cover all the languages that your visitors speak, since at least my site gets visitors from all over the world. There are translating sites that'll translate a whole site for you, and I see people using those on my website on a regular basis. With the way my site is built, it seems to work pretty well, too. I think that's a much better solution than having all the information on your site posted in 5+ languages. And "1500 polygons" should be pretty self-explanatory in any language if the polygon count is what people are looking for.

Which ever language is used, I would like to see more creators to post the polygon or vertex counts for their objects, or alternatively state that the objects are within the recommended limits