Invisible Attackers?

[raptureswild]

I was playing creature stage earlier and got attacked by invisible monsters.  Seeing that I'm a vegetarian pacifist candyass, it scared the crap out of me and I runned away.

Is it possible that they were using a stealth/sneak ability (does that stay activated when they attack?  I didn't think it would, that seems fundamentally unfair)?  I ran over by the nest later on and lo and behold, there they were.

Has this happened to anyone else with any degree of regularity?  Or has it happened as a fluke-kind of thing?

Apologies if this has been covered in another thread; I don't have time to read them all and none have any specific references to this in the titles.

[Milhouse Trixibelle Saltfucker III]

It may have been a stealth attack, but it is also possible that the creatures had not been "loaded" by the game yet - I have noticed that it, at least on my outdated rig, often takes a few moments for things around you to completely appear. This especially sucks in Space, when, say, you might only have a little bit of time left to eliminate five diseased creatures and you can't actually see them, or your planet is being invaded and you can't see the ships yet, but they can shoot at you just fine. So far, in both my Creature games, that sort of effect has occurred with every single creature I met, the first time I met them - they were all invisible at first, then became completely black, then filled in with texture.

[Zazazu]

Was actual HP damage done? If not, most likely a creature just outside of your view threw a stick at you. Some creatures with arms will do that if you walk over their nest.

[jsalemi]

Is it possible that they were using a stealth/sneak ability (does that stay activated when they attack?  I didn't think it would, that seems fundamentally unfair)?  I ran over by the nest later on and lo and behold, there they were.

Yes, they were using the stealth ability, and yes, they can attack while it's active. I usually try to give my creature that ability, because it's handy for sneak attacks.

[raptureswild]

They killed one of my pack members (most because I was sitting there yelling WHAT THE F*CK) and were spitting purple poison at them.

So just to clarify - again, because I haven't used it - you can attack while sneaking, without actually becoming visible once the first attack is done?  I can understand sneaking UP on them, but then being able to attack without the possibility of victim defending itself is not cool.  Even the Romulans have to come out of being cloaked before they can attack you (yes, Trekkie alert).

It wasn't a loading issue.  This was the only time it happened, and my computer doesn't have any lag issues loading the game (I'm a lucky bastard with a gaming laptop).

It was just weird.  And frustrating.  And uncool.

But thank you all for the clarification.  If it happens again I will say something.

[jsalemi]

Yea, the sneak ability lasts for x amount of time, regardless of what the creature is doing, so continuous sneak attacks are possible.  Not a bad way to bring down an epic, actually -- spit and run while sneaking, and your pack can do a lot of damage to it before it even knows where you are.

Sneak also carries over to tribal, though you don't have control over it.  Your tribe will automatically cloak when they start their attack, regardless of the weapons they have.  It's kinda cool when used with spear carriers, since the tribe you're attacking don't know where the attack is coming from for a little bit.  Get them running every which way and then send in the stone axe gang to mop them up.

[J. M. Pescado]

Wrong: Sneak will decloak when you launch your first attacks. It will otherwise last indefinitely until you are spotted or perform an action that forces you to decloak. However, you allegedly receive bonus damage for the first few attacks performed while decloaking.

So just to clarify - again, because I haven't used it - you can attack while sneaking, without actually becoming visible once the first attack is done?  I can understand sneaking UP on them, but then being able to attack without the possibility of victim defending itself is not cool.  Even the Romulans have to come out of being cloaked before they can attack you (yes, Trekkie alert).

There is some debate over whether this is actually REALLY true or not, but for the most part, empirical experiments performed in which it was allowed to fire on people while still cloaked revealed that, even when such an act is possible, it is supremely unwise, because you are simply flying around with no shields while your position is obvious since that is where all the SHOOTING is coming from. Therefore, if you do this, you would quickly DIE. Many noobs would do it anyway, which is why we called it the "croaking device" instead: All it did was get them killed as they would cloak at inappropriate times without doing anything to actually obscure their real position, resulting in being slammed by a full barrage straight into their squishy unprotected hulls and killed instantly.

This effect has been seen to occur in all games, Trek-related or not, where any attempt to fire on a player while invisible essentially renders invisibility a pointless drain on your power resources while doing absolutely nothing to obscure you from any decent player. In short, you look really stupid and ineffective and fool no one. This is pretty much why the idea never really resurfaced again after STVI: Since it seems unlikely based on how we know research and development WORKS (where once something is known to be possible, it is quickly independently rediscovered), it is most likely the case that the idea was quickly discarded as a bad one as people figured out how to trivially counter by simply shooting at where all the shooting comes from...something any snot-nosed 12-year-old can figure out.

[jsalemi]

Wrong: Sneak will decloak when you launch your first attacks. It will otherwise last indefinitely until you are spotted or perform an action that forces you to decloak. However, you allegedly receive bonus damage for the first few attacks performed while decloaking.

Hmm, I don't know about that -- I'll have to try it next time I get new creatures.  I seem to think I had a pretty intensive attack going under sneak, and then my pack was still sneaking and ran away without a counterattack.

[Fat D]

This is pretty much why the idea never really resurfaced again after STVI

Can you see in the dark, Picard?

[J. M. Pescado]

Units which do not attack, perhaps because you viciously killed the victim too quickly, will not decloak.

[raptureswild]

This effect has been seen to occur in all games, Trek-related or not, where any attempt to fire on a player while invisible essentially renders invisibility a pointless drain on your power resources while doing absolutely nothing to obscure you from any decent player. In short, you look really stupid and ineffective and fool no one. This is pretty much why the idea never really resurfaced again after STVI: Since it seems unlikely based on how we know research and development WORKS (where once something is known to be possible, it is quickly independently rediscovered), it is most likely the case that the idea was quickly discarded as a bad one as people figured out how to trivially counter by simply shooting at where all the shooting comes from...something any snot-nosed 12-year-old can figure out.

Extremely good point; however, if one were to use the jsalemi tactic and run around screaming your head off while using ranged attacks, this significantly decreases the target's chances of having successful aim at attacker.

Anyways.  Problem continued, except pretty much every creature this time was invisible.  It's not a stealth attack, it's my piece of crap computer.  Yes, I was incredibly wrong, and yes, I almost threw it across the room (never again will I buy a $2800 gaming laptop - it's a $2800 PAPERWEIGHT).

[J. M. Pescado]

Extremely good point; however, if one were to use the jsalemi tactic and run around screaming your head off while using ranged attacks, this significantly decreases the target's chances of having successful aim at attacker.

This works best if you have a weapon that has a low rate of fire but very high damage, as frequent shooting will continually reveal your position. Conversely, it fails against enemies that have a high rate of fire, as they can continuously hit you, revealing your position by you being hit. This is quite apparent in Netrek, where once I find you by FIRIN' MAH LAZOR, you are DEAD!

[Dopp]

Shields in Trek negate most of the benefits of a first strike. If, like a submarine torpedoing a battleship, a stealth bomber dropping a nuke, or a sniper picking off a target, most targets die in one or two hits, stealth of the Trek variety becomes more useful. However in Trek, even the smallest shuttlecraft can survive a few direct hits from a battleship, especially if main characters are on board. Being able to move unseen is still a pretty big military advantage though. I suppose stealth is also useful for dropping mines (must be cloaked themselves, of course), running away (blockade runners), suicide attacks with really big bombs (preferably the type that make suns go nova), ramming, shooting and scooting with weapons that don't give away your position as easily (like a carrier launching fighters from long range, or some sort of time delay missile), or, if you are facing an enemy who outranges you, getting in close before decloaking and fighting on more equal terms (aka 'grabbing the enemy by the belt', see Korean War).

I use stealth in creature stage to avoid fights not in my favor. Useful for ambushing unwary Alphas taking a leak alone in the woods.

[J. M. Pescado]

Shields in Trek negate most of the benefits of a first strike. If, like a submarine torpedoing a battleship, a stealth bomber dropping a nuke, or a sniper picking off a target, most targets die in one or two hits, stealth of the Trek variety becomes more useful.

Oh, first strikes in Trek definitely exist, and stealth is definitely useful: A sufficiently stealthy alpha-strike can easily flatten your opponent before he can even put up defenses, but they are NOT, however, very useful in a running tactical engagement that has already started. Incidentally, other players really, really hate it when I cheapshot them like that, a feat they can never reproduce due to my raging paranoia. But it's not paranoia when they really are out to get you!

And yes, stealth in creature stage is useful for avoiding fights not in your favor, such as the invariably annoying early-game "nest migration" when the your creature's nest is suddenly forcibly moved to godknowswhere with absolutely no clear path for GETTING there. Use of stealth as a fight-avoidance technique has limited value with a large pack, though, as SOMEONE always manages to wander too close to something. It also stops being useful again once you start adding other creatures (generally Rogues) to your pack, as you pretty much never encounter fights not in your favor when your party is 2 or 3 rogues.

[Faizah]

Even if the migration path is clearly marked and devoid of mountains and things that want to eat you, that's no guarantee that it'll be at all useful.

I had one with a very clear path on the mini-map... leading directly out to sea. I couldn't even see the nest from the shore, the 'migrate this-a-way' line just kept going, way past the chomp point.

[J. M. Pescado]

Migrating is much easier when you can fly. The threat of aerial attack is nearly nonexistent. Incidentally, it's also possible to solo very mean creatures without being hurt by DEATH FROM ABOVE. Fly, then charge your target while flying, fire off your bite and strike, and then take off back into the sky before he recovers, and charge again!