Does this make sense?

[Sagana]

I don't "do" art (professionally) - I'm a digital production manager, and you can critique all you want, but it's useless if you can't get it out the door.

You could - but you won't. It's too much work and you don't have the interest. That's fine and understandable and all. The things you do have interest in and make are cool too and I appreciate that. I don't make much of anything and nothing that I share - work is enough for me without doing it at home too - I appreciate everything people share with me.

Someone that will, did and they're useful and fun. I appreciate that a lot - I use them, and however much they could be made better, it helps me not at all, because they aren't available. Discouraging someone from doing them at all won't make the game more fun for me. If you could convince her (or someone else) to make them better, that would be - maybe they'd get made and be better - but I don't see how this is accomplishing that, nor likely to be.

What's going too far is to decide that everything nice someone did is worthless because noone likes them personally anymore.

[veilchen]

I remember that Motoki. You started warning people about the polygon count way back when at MTS2. Many jumped on you for that, denying that it was true, someone even said you made that up to impress people. I believed you though, because what you said made sense, it was a highly logical thought process. I went into my downloads and took much of the stuff out that you said had the potential of being high poly, and guess what? My game ran far smoother, almost instantly.

Now everyone (except a few) include a face count into their creation description, and for that I am grateful.



Baratron, I know what you mean, but it is absolutely useless to force someone to get help, no matter what the problem is. If the person does not acknowledge that a problem exists, no one can help. I know that denial is very often a part of the symptoms, but just as you can't force a person with a substance abuse disorder to get clean, you can't force a person with mind disturbance to seek help.

I've seen it time and time again where a person is forced by court order, or family pressure, to undergo treatment, such as anger-management for instance, and the person does not feel that there is anything wrong with them. They go through the motions, and often the symptoms get worse. Even friends and family usually fail to convince the ill person that it is imparative that they seek aid, most of the time that only results in the person digging in their heels so to speak, and accuse everyone of conspiracy. It is a very sad fact, and I applaud everyone who has the resolve to acknowledge that they need help and then go and seek it. But unless it is done completely voluntary, it will be useless to even try and convince the person who is ill.

Illness, no matter of what origin is not an excuse to treat others as if they were practically worthless though. Treading on eggshells is just as useless as trying to convince someone in denial that they have a mental disturbance.

[Motoki]

Discouraging someone from doing them at all won't make the game more fun for me. If you could convince her (or someone else) to make them better, that would be - maybe they'd get made and be better -

First off, I didn't tell her not to make anything. As if she would listen to me if I did!

Second, I actually DID make an attempt to make everyone aware of this issue. I think it worked to some degree because I stirred up enough noise about it that the counts got added in SimPE and major sites like TSR are posting their counts now.

What Rennie did on the other hand was to counter the awareness I was trying to raise with FALSE information that the polygon counts did not matter at all. As per her usual style, she made what more or less equated to a decree that this was so. Yet anyone who knows a damn about 3D modeling including Maxis says otherwise. But what do they know, they only made the game. 

As I think this thread illustrates quite well, reasoning with Rennie is somewhat of a lost cause.

but I don't see how this is accomplishing that, nor likely to be.

Well you're opinion that my expressing my opinion is accomplishing nothing is duly noted. And thrown the fuck out because I don't really give a shit and can say what the fuck I want.

What's going too far is to decide that everything nice someone did is worthless because noone likes them personally anymore.

Nice and worthless are in the eye of the beholder. I never said it was worthless. I said I thought it could have been done better. Even if I did say it was worthless, guess what? It's a fucking opinion. It's just what *I* think. DUH! It's not going too far to express an opinion, unless of course you are trying to do it at Variousimmers.

[Sagana]

Motoki, I didn't quote you, nor address you, in the original post because I wasn't referring to you alone, but about the general tone of the posts above - though I can certainly see how you might have thought I meant you specifically, as I referred to wishing someone would make some more if it's that easy (referred to your post). Sorry for being confusing - I still didn't mean just you.

I know you attempted to make everyone aware of the polygon issue. I saw the original post. I deleted a bunch of high poly stuff myself (even beds - no sense having them, even just one, if I can't place them without blowing my game up. The mobiles don't blow my game up. Neither does the pirate ship - if you discount every adult playing on it all the time.) My game ran better for your help - still runs better. Thanks. I believe you improved meshing and the game in general.

I also saw the silly argument over the polygon stuff. I don't have an account at VS - never have, so I didn't have one to delete. I've downloaded something from there now and then. I read a thread or two about something I downloaded (to see if it's updated or if I have problems with it), but I've never socialized there. I saw a number of the original ...debates (at MTS2 - I've been hanging out there quite awhile) including Rennie's dramatic exit (twice) and well... held my distance...

Of course you can have and express any opinion you want. So I can I What I'm posting is *my* opinion and I've the same right to have it, and to post it (thus far, anyways - I haven't been stuck in RL or whatever yet).

I think we aren't communicating very well. I've said my piece and have no wish to argue. I'm trying to think of a way to say I'll let it go without it sounding like I'm telling you not to respond, which isn't what I mean... just that unless I've something differenter or better way of saying it to add, I'll try and hush and not beat a dead horse.

[Motoki]

Well you're right, I did take it as being aimed at me and if it was more general then I can accept that. I just felt singled out.

To be honest, I don't even know why I got so pissed off about it, I just did. Male PMS maybe (for the 100th time I'm not an old lady y'all )

Anyhow sorry to have bitten your head off.  Yes we are free to have an opinion that the other person's opinion is a waste of time.   

Bleh, I hate getting all nice and sappy after I get all riled up. LOL

[veilchen]

While we are on the polygon subject... Motoki, is there a way for us amateurs (as in a nice, easy, and risk free way) to see how many polygons an objects has that we want to download? I've seen some nice stuff out there, but since it has potentially poly-high designs, I usually chicken out from downloading.

Any thoughts, hints, tips?

[Motoki]

While we are on the polygon subject... Motoki, is there a way for us amateurs (as in a nice, easy, and risk free way) to see how many polygons an objects has that we want to download? I've seen some nice stuff out there, but since it has potentially poly-high designs, I usually chicken out from downloading.

Any thoughts, hints, tips?

You can see it in SimPE. If you open the package, then select the GMDC (Geometric Data Container) on left hand side, select one of the entries in the upper right window, then down in the lower part of the screen there should be a tab called "3D Mesh". Select that and look for the Faces= and Vertices= and those are the counts.

Some objects have more than one GMDC, but usually it's just a shadow or bubbles for the bathtub or something like that and those counts are negligible and not worth worrying about. You can also preview the mesh in the 3D Mesh tab too. There's a preview button down below where the the counts are.

[Sagana]

Bleh, I hate getting all nice and sappy after I get all riled up.

rofl.

ok, say something less nice and sappy. I can take it. I'm still waiting for Pescado to stick me in that newsbox (I'll probably make it someday - it'll be a point of honor.)

ya know, I really do have a hard time remembering you're not female I wonder how much assumption of gender influences what we read here (yeah, I know, there are lots of boring studies about gender roles on the net already, but I still wonder.)

Veilchen, you can check the polycount in simpe (will let Motoki explain now, I'm generally clueless). But also, just as an extra note - if you place something and there's a slowdown on that lot (during day to night changes is when I notice most) *or* if you get those funky lines coming off some piece - it's way way way too high I have a nothing video card (and get no options on startup) but my lots load reasonably quickly and play smoothly even with 8 sims on them as long as I don't start adding a bunch of plants and beds and other such really cool but don't work well things.

[veilchen]

Thanks Motoki, I will do that. I didn't know that poly-count depends on the creator, I thought it was a design issue. Like round, waves, knobs, etc = bad. I just looked at the (sometimes very appealing) stuff, sighed deeply, and moved on.

Edit: Beat me to posting Sagana ;D. Lines, what lines? Please people, do remember, I panik easily. A psychological left over from the jump bug in the original TS2, no doubt.

[Motoki]

I'm still waiting for Pescado to stick me in that newsbox (I'll probably make it someday - it'll be a point of honor.)

Well I only got "How be Motokiness?" No kick, didn't even get called stupid or a round mound of grey fatness. Heh, I must be the only person Pescado ever said anything that could be remotely construed as nice or friendly in the newsbox.

I'm insulted that I wasn't insulted!  

[Motoki]

Lines, what lines?

It's hard to explain, I'll have to see if I can find a picture. It's like these really long sharp spikey points that stick a mile out from the object. 

[veilchen]

It's hard to explain, I'll have to see if I can find a picture. It's like these really long sharp spikey points that stick a mile out from the object. 

So I would definitely know it when I saw it right? I still would like to see a picture though, because it sounds intriguing, plus I'm nosy.

[Sagana]

I'm insulted that I wasn't insulted!

Well, maybe it's because he can't figure out if you're really an old lady or not. Very few people want to clean up after an angry nanny.

otoh, Pescado is very few people, isn't he?

Like round, waves, knobs, etc = bad. I just looked at the (sometimes very appealing) stuff, sighed deeply, and moved on.

You can't really assume that just because it's round (or whatever), it's high poly. As Motoki was saying earlier, there's ways to make something look about as good without adding extra - one way is to, more or less, "paint" on the roundness using textures and alpha channels. A good artist can do amazing things.

I hope Motoki can find a picture as it's really hard to explain, but yeah you'd realize something was weird if you saw it. One of my favorite kitchens has a stove that does that in my game <sigh> I should go see if maybe the creator updated it and got the polycount down...

[Motoki]

Well I'ved looked and looked and can't find a picture of it. I'm not sure what words to use to bring it up either. Searching for "spike" on sims sites brings up James Marsters sims and Dragonball Z hair.

If it happens to me again I will have to snap a picture.

*edit: Okay I finally found one. Had to go to TSR.

I'm not even sure where it's coming from in this picture though, looks like it's coming from the floor. 

[attachment deleted by admin]

[vecki]

Ooh I get that happening a lot!  I call it 'bleeding' because I couldn't think of another word for it.

It happens to random objects, Maxis or custom, it makes no difference.

[Motoki]

Yes, to be honest I never really though it had anything to do with the polygon count other than that maybe indirectly contributes to the game and the lot just getting overloaded. *shrug* Not sure if it's a video card/driver issue or just the game's way of telling you you're pushing it too far.

I do know certain custom items were known to cause this to happen frequently for some people. In particular some of the earlier created beds did this.

[Sagana]

I've never seen a Maxis item do it. I've got an emachine with a built-in video card (yes I know it's awful) - an extreme graphics something or another (the pc is being used by someone else or I'd be hogging it) and it only happens to me on CC with poly counts that bother the poor card. I'll take a pic of the stove tomorrow when I can get to the computer... it's obviously coming from that in my game (admittedly I had that house packed with stuff as well - maybe that was just the item that drove it over the edge). When I get that, I delete it (and usually prune too) and my game runs better.

[vecki]

The most obvious example I can think of a Maxis object doing it was the expensive telescope.  It was a solid bar of grey the height of the telescope stretching out into the distance.

[MokeyHokey]

You can see it in SimPE. If you open the package, then select the GMDC (Geometric Data Container) on left hand side, select one of the entries in the upper right window, then down in the lower part of the screen there should be a tab called "3D Mesh". Select that and look for the Faces= and Vertices= and those are the counts.

Motoki, which one matters more, vertex or face?  Does anyone even agree on this?  I ask because I've occasionally downloaded something that seems to have an adequate face count, but Pe tells me it can't count the vertexes (verteces?) as there are too many.  Or maybe it's the other way round.  I've not been using these things since I figure if Pe can't count it, I don't want to.

I do appreciate the effort you made way back in the day. I even had that thread bookmarked for a while and kept going back to it to see if anything new had been added.

[fff]

So that's what those weird lines are! I see them fairly often, and just assumed they were a result of my craptacular video card. So let me get this right, any custom object that spawns these lines is bad news, and should be given the arse ASAP?

[RainbowTigress]

I had this happen one time that I remember, only I didn't have any idea what it was at the time!  It was with a Uni student who was wearing that side ponytail hairstyle that came with Uni.  I thought it was a fluke because I never saw it before or since, and I think I would have noticed something like that.  She had been playing pool before she left for class, and I thought it was the pool cue sticking out of the side of her head!  I got some good pics of it.  I thought maybe when she came back from class it would be fixed, but it didn't.  I had her go to the mirror and change appearance without actually changing anything, and that fixed it.

[Motoki]

Motoki, which one matters more, vertex or face?  Does anyone even agree on this?  I ask because I've occasionally downloaded something that seems to have an adequate face count, but Pe tells me it can't count the vertexes (verteces?) as there are too many.  Or maybe it's the other way round.  I've not been using these things since I figure if Pe can't count it, I don't want to.

They're both connected. The vertices are the dots and faces are the shapes made by connecting the dots. If I recall correctly (and it's been a while since I checked into all this) the game will allow multiple vertices to share space while only having to render one. So I suppose that would make the face count more important. If it says "too many faces" in the box, it will still give the total face count above it. The too many faces is just sort of SimPE's way of red flagging a file as a potential high poly file.

The folder scanner tool on your downloads is also helpful for locating high potential high poly meshes. Just have it do the Health Scanner then when it's done click on Health to sort by the 'health' of the files and look for the ones it's reporting as too many faces, that's a good start to work with if you're trying to look for high poly meshes among your download.

Of course it will also catch some Maxis objects too heh so you'll want to look at the object, see what it is and decide based on that. Like if it's a bed or a car 6k might be okay, but if it's a tiny flower then it probably isn't etc.

[aussieone]

Sort of reminds me of that saying....walk softly and carry a big stick!! 

[MokeyHokey]

Ok that makes sense.  Thanks Motoki! 

[veilchen]

I know that I can't automatically assume that just because of the design, something has a high polycount, but I tried to keep away from potential threats ever since Motoki first started warning people. Back then, SimPe was but a gleam in Quaxi's eyes, and there was no easy way to find out the vertex count :D.

I didn't know that SimPe could do it, and even if I did, I wouldn't know how to find the tool that counts them. I use SimPe in the easy way, I am not very technically inclined. I know I could easily learn, but I have too much on my plate as it is.

Sorry about your stove Sagana, I know the feeling ;D

That is some of the weirdest looking stuff I've ever seen, Motoki and Rainbow. I definitely never seen anything like that in my game, my caution paid off then, no? Thanks for taking the time to dig them up, maybe it will solve some mysteries for other people as well.