The Evil Twin Challenge

[cenoura]

I did the toddler stage without the nanny. She just gets in the way and takes the toddlers to the crib / gets them out / bathes them / makes dinner when you don't want her to - and that's just in a usual household. As I knew I'd have at least one toddler in a rubbish mood most of the time, hiring the nanny just wasn't an option. So instead I moved the household to the smallest lot I can comfortably play in (2x2 rather than 1x3) - coupled with growing food (which adds lots of green to the parent's fun bar, and once she was a gold badge she could get her social up by talking to the plants - so she was in a pretty good mood most of the time) I had plenty of cash to spend without having to get the parent a job until the twins were half way through child stage.

The mother, by the way, didn't eat gelatin all the time - one sparkly meal of pork chops a day kept her going fine, and she could make it when the twins were asleep. Getting both toddlers all three skills was tough, especially when avoiding triggering the wants, but that's why this is called a challenge! And, besides, playing the toddler stage in Autumn helped a lot.

[Gus Smedstad]

"bathing" is a moot point because that only NEEDS to be done once or twice in an entire toddlerhood, if you keep them out of the toilet.

I found bathing to be a major time suck.  I couldn't just ignore bad hygiene because then the toddlers refuse to learn anything when dirty.  The changing table is a lot faster, but you can only use it with a full diaper, and you generally can't let the toddlers do that because you need the full bladders for potty training.

Therefore it's harder for ME to have sets of kids

Oh, definitely because you have to split your attention more ways.  Which is generally far more fun.  But the kids don't impose any theoretical limitations on the adults other than "learn to study," which you could postpone if you're having a toddler crisis.  So by "harder" in this case I mean the kids don't really don't factor at all into whether it's possible, just how often you have to pause the game.

Unlike most people around here (who are probably smarter for it), I don't use the macrotastics hacks or the baby controller.

Neither do I.  I don't like either one, because I'm handing off decisions - albeit very simple ones - to an AI player.  I'd rather play the game myself rather than let a hack do it for me.

I don't lobotomize my nannies because I very very rarely use them.

I generally only avoid them as well.  It was some reluctance that I hired them for this challenge because I was having trouble finding enough adult Sim-hours.

 - Gus

[Gus Smedstad]

The mother, by the way, didn't eat gelatin all the time - one sparkly meal of pork chops a day kept her going fine, and she could make it when the twins were asleep.

There's something screwy here.  By the time you've raised your first crop of fresh food, the toddlers should be children.  A CAS Adult can't plant anything but Tomatoes, and it takes ~5 days from planting to harvest.

Did you start the twins as infants?  The challenge specifies that they start as toddlers.

 - Gus

[talysman]

The mother, by the way, didn't eat gelatin all the time - one sparkly meal of pork chops a day kept her going fine, and she could make it when the twins were asleep.

There's something screwy here.  By the time you've raised your first crop of fresh food, the toddlers should be children.  A CAS Adult can't plant anything but Tomatoes, and it takes ~5 days from planting to harvest.

Did you start the twins as infants?  The challenge specifies that they start as toddlers.

Also, it should be a CAS family. How on earth did a CAS sim have time to learn how to cook pork chops, skill two toddlers, and grow a crop of food? I'm also leery of the reference to using talk to plants to keep social up. Why on earth would you be worried about the parent's Social needs? Bladder, Energy and Hunger are the only ones I worry about, because if you're trying to make the good twin grow up platinum, you're probably doing some tickles and snuggles, anyways, so there's no need to worry about Social, and Comfort gets filled with Energy. If Fun isn't being filled enough by tickling the kid, it only takes a moment at a painting, or kicking a flamingo a couple times, to get that back up. Hygiene can almost be ignored (one, maybe two showers in four days) and Environment *can* be ignored.

I'm interested in Quinctia's streamlining and, for that matter, normal style of play. What, exactly, did you do?

Also, I'm beginning to wonder if toddler stage was lengthened or something. I get four days, although there's a trick to get a little extra time on the last day (put the kid to sleep at 5:30pm, wake 'em after 6pm, you get a couple more hours.)

My twins rolled up strange wants, so I'm wondering how to finangle the one twin not getting any asp.  Ironically, the "evil" twin had toddler skill wants way before the "good" twin did. XD

So, how did you avoid the aspiration bonus? Did you use Gus's "sprint for the last mile" technique? Did the toddler roll all social wants on the last day?

It's still not as bad as having a couple of twin kids who need to be kept on their homework and off the podiums while I've got triplet toddlers to train up, even if I had two parents then.  I mean come on, I just fed mommy gelatin, no one needs to cook here.

Why are you keeping kids off the podiums? Assuming I'm playing normally and not avoiding career rewards for the challenge, I would have them skilling on the podiums. Homework is easy, as long as you keep their mood positive.

Children aren't a problem. They can do practically everything themselves, except learn to study. Sure, they can't cook, except with the toy oven, but why would they need to? They can eat snacks or order pizza. Increasing the number of sims doesn't really raise the difficulty, just the time it takes to play and the amount of planning. You've got a pause key, so you can queue up actions or study options. I played one household once where the adult had a death wish LTW for ten kids going to college, or something like that, and had her churning out babies while also trying to make it to the top of the law enforcement career, so there was always at least four, sometimes five or six, sims in the house. It was a major time suck, but not hard, especially since most of the kids turned out as neatniks. One of the main reasons I let sims have kids is because, even if the toddler stage can be rough, the child stage is like having little slaves at your beck and call.

Incidentally, I found out I have to redo the challenge. Even though I'm certain I set the evil twin's personality properly according to the rules, I noticed that when the Dopple twins woke up, they both autonomously decided to make their beds and cheered about it. I thought "why would a kid with zero Neat enjoy making his bed?" Turns out, he somehow got 8 Neat. Technically, that shouldn't have affected the toddler stage difficulty, but it ruins the rest of the challenge.

[Gus Smedstad]

if you're trying to make the good twin grow up platinum, you're probably doing some tickles and snuggles, anyways

Eh, they're not needed.  Get any of the skills done on good twin just before they grow up and that's automatic platinum.

 - Gus

[Zazazu]

Why on earth would you be worried about the parent's Social needs?

No idea. Plus, I find having the parent "Play With..." while a toddler is on a skilling toy a much better way to fill social in a single-parent house. Fills parent's social and fun, fills toddler's social and fun (without fulfilling any social wants) and builds skill.

It's still not as bad as having a couple of twin kids who need to be kept on their homework and off the podiums while I've got triplet toddlers to train up, even if I had two parents then.  I mean come on, I just fed mommy gelatin, no one needs to cook here.

Why are you keeping kids off the podiums? Assuming I'm playing normally and not avoiding career rewards for the challenge, I would have them skilling on the podiums. Homework is easy, as long as you keep their mood positive.

Kid + podium = major annoyance. They grate on my nerves. I just don't allow podiums in my sim homes. Of course, I almost never use career rewards or aspiration objects at all.

I played one household once where the adult had a death wish LTW for ten kids going to college, or something like that, and had her churning out babies while also trying to make it to the top of the law enforcement career, so there was always at least four, sometimes five or six, sims in the house. It was a major time suck, but not hard, especially since most of the kids turned out as neatniks. One of the main reasons I let sims have kids is because, even if the toddler stage can be rough, the child stage is like having little slaves at your beck and call.

The only real challenge with having a bunch of children in a house is with jumping on the bed. Such an annoying energy drain and temperature raiser. I have a no-autonomy hack for that, as I'd finally had enough about a month ago.

Anyways, the LTW you are thinking of is "graduate three kids from college". Not hard, I just hate Uni. If I roll that and roll to have the LTW fulfilled, I usually will kind of cheat my odds on trips & quads or make a cheesecake to get more than one through at a time. And seriously...6 sims is difficult for you? Try 22. Free Love cult leader, Queen's Cove. Three of 'em were babies, two toddlers, and I can't remember the other ten kids' lifestages.

[talysman]

I played one household once where the adult had a death wish LTW for ten kids going to college, or something like that, and had her churning out babies while also trying to make it to the top of the law enforcement career, so there was always at least four, sometimes five or six, sims in the house. It was a major time suck, but not hard, especially since most of the kids turned out as neatniks. One of the main reasons I let sims have kids is because, even if the toddler stage can be rough, the child stage is like having little slaves at your beck and call.

The only real challenge with having a bunch of children in a house is with jumping on the bed. Such an annoying energy drain and temperature raiser. I have a no-autonomy hack for that, as I'd finally had enough about a month ago.

Anyways, the LTW you are thinking of is "graduate three kids from college". Not hard, I just hate Uni. If I roll that and roll to have the LTW fulfilled, I usually will kind of cheat my odds on trips & quads or make a cheesecake to get more than one through at a time. And seriously...6 sims is difficult for you? Try 22. Free Love cult leader, Queen's Cove. Three of 'em were babies, two toddlers, and I can't remember the other ten kids' lifestages.

Nah, I think I just thought it had something to do with college. Whatever it was, it definitely involved lots of kids. She started as an unwed mother of three, and she sent five or six k of her kids to college before I got bored with that neighborhood, so I know it wasn't just "send three kids to college".

(Note: while composing this, I noticed I somehow got an extra "k" in that paragraph. But it's now unintentionally amusing, so I'm leaving it in.)

Are six sims difficult? I never said that. I said it took a lot of time, but was NOT hard. I hate delays, hate the grind. That's why I refuse to play legacy-style challenges. I generally don't mind making a game *harder*, but I sure as hell don't want to make it *longer*. However, if the challenge is a hard one, it had better result in some interesting events. This is why I never play with free will off, and I avoid "no autonomy" hacks. Hacks to prevent autonomous queue-stomping are OK, though.

I should note that, for this challenge, "no autonomy" or anything like that is forbidden, because it changes game play. Even "don't wave at me" is kind of borderline, because it gives you a few extra seconds of control, but since I haven't taken it out for my own play, I guess I'm OK with that. The reason Macrotastics is allowed is because you can do anything Macrotastics does manually. Same with BUY.

Since I don't have Seasons and don't care if kids drain their energy, as long as all their work for the day is done, I don't worry about bed-jumping. In fact, it's a good way for the evil twin to keep Fun up.

[Quinctia]

I found bathing to be a major time suck.  I couldn't just ignore bad hygiene because then the toddlers refuse to learn anything when dirty

Assuming you're on your toes about keeping the kids out of the toilet, evil twin has no neat points and will probably need two baths.  (And inevitably manage to get into the toilet a bit.)  Nice twin has ten neat points and will probably need one bath.  Buy the most expensive tub you can (it should have the highest hygeine score).  Plus it ups everyone's social bar without fulfilling asp.  This all assumes you manage to get them on the toilet on time everytime before they can do it themselves.

There's something screwy here.  By the time you've raised your first crop of fresh food, the toddlers should be children.  A CAS Adult can't plant anything but Tomatoes, and it takes ~5 days from planting to harvest.

We do sort of have two simultaneous discussions going on.  Gus was saying that simply getting the toddler skills taught in the first place was nearly impossible, and a few of us were saying it wasn't really that hard.  So I'm not 100% that's not what was being referred to.  But yes, someone cooking porkchops with fresh food is not going to happen at that stage of your challenge unless parent hired a nanny, went to a business lot to buy produce, and nanny cooked the food.

I'm interested in Quinctia's streamlining and, for that matter, normal style of play. What, exactly, did you do?

Well, first I built the house.  2x2 lot, flattened.  One room for the parent with the single bed with the highest energy count.  Though next time, I probably would ignore my feelings of silliness and cave and buy the vampire coffin, which has higher energy.  Bathroom with the cheap bath/shower.  I'd probably buy the expensive one next time.  I had one bedroom for the toddlers (2 cribs, 1 changing table, two potties)...mistake.  Next time, I'd follow Awesomespec and have the cribs in their own little cubicles so the kids don't wake each other.  One room for the fridge, table and chairs, and toddler toys (all three).  I bought a mid-high range priced counter and the best stove, but I wouldn't do that the next time--I'd just get something to put the gelatin on.  I bought the cheap dishwasher.  And next time, I'd use the compactor instead of a garbage can.  I'd also forego the smoke detector.  Midrange chair, cheap card table.  If I was actually playing the challenge, I'd get three cheaper chairs.

I also bought the cheapest television and the cheapest bookcase.  Next time, I'd add in a video game system.  My biggest annoyance, after kids waking each other up, was the entertainment score on the parent.

My normal style of play includes feeding smart milk exclusively (because I can a) keep the dispenser in the nursery and b) pull out a few bottles and leave them out without spoiling) and I like toddler blankets.  I have a no-empty potty hack, but I used non-Maxis potties that aren't affected by the hack to do this little trial run.

A few little "tricks" that help.  If you cancel the potty train action just as you set one kid down, the kid will train and you can have the parent do something else--put the other kid on the pot, empty the other pot, do something else entirely.  I do the same sort of thing to pull out bottles faster.

Also, I'm beginning to wonder if toddler stage was lengthened or something. I get four days, although there's a trick to get a little extra time on the last day (put the kid to sleep at 5:30pm, wake 'em after 6pm, you get a couple more hours.)

I got four days, but in a normal game I age them up as soon as they hit 6pm on the third day.

So, how did you avoid the aspiration bonus? Did you use Gus's "sprint for the last mile" technique? Did the toddler roll all social wants on the last day?

Frankly, I didn't.  I just wanted some visceral evidence that raising toddlers wasn't that difficult--I wasn't planning to run through the whole challenge, though I did make give them the "right personalities" so the evil twin was a pain in the ass when her motives got low.  The difficulty of actually raising them really depends on how you do the house.  It would probably be impossible to train two toddlers with one parent/no help if they started with 20,000 on a 5x5.

Why are you keeping kids off the podiums? Assuming I'm playing normally and not avoiding career rewards for the challenge, I would have them skilling on the podiums. Homework is easy, as long as you keep their mood positive.

Podiums are high advertising for kids to "play" on.  Which I wouldn't have a problem with, if play didn't consist entirely of belching.  Which all other sims want to stop and react to.  The putt-putt reward is much better.  Teaching the kids to study is an annoyance when you want your adults paying attention to toddlers is all I meant.

Children aren't a problem. They can do practically everything themselves, except learn to study. Sure, they can't cook, except with the toy oven, but why would they need to? They can eat snacks or order pizza. Increasing the number of sims doesn't really raise the difficulty, just the time it takes to play and the amount of planning. You've got a pause key, so you can queue up actions or study options. I played one household once where the adult had a death wish LTW for ten kids going to college, or something like that, and had her churning out babies while also trying to make it to the top of the law enforcement career, so there was always at least four, sometimes five or six, sims in the house. It was a major time suck, but not hard, especially since most of the kids turned out as neatniks. One of the main reasons I let sims have kids is because, even if the toddler stage can be rough, the child stage is like having little slaves at your beck and call.

Once you have a toddler potty trained, as long as you've deposited plenty of smart milk bottles around, the toddlers are nearly self-sufficient!  The main difficulty is keeping them from doing things like skilling themselves half to death on objects.  You think six sims is hard?  try fourteen.  Still not hard, it just made playing take a lot longer.

I like legacies, but I don't see them as a challenge.  I see it as some nice guidelines to get a family and a storyline going, and a good excuse to experiment with GENETICS, my favorite part of the game.  I don't really like "challenges," actually.  Though I'd like to do an asylum at some point.

[talysman]

We do sort of have two simultaneous discussions going on.  Gus was saying that simply getting the toddler skills taught in the first place was nearly impossible, and a few of us were saying it wasn't really that hard.  So I'm not 100% that's not what was being referred to.  But yes, someone cooking porkchops with fresh food is not going to happen at that stage of your challenge unless parent hired a nanny, went to a business lot to buy produce, and nanny cooked the food.

Well, he does mean "in the challenge". Or just in the mini-challenge. Gus originally thought skilling the toddlers would be easy, because it's easy under normal circumstances. Then he realized that, when you start with the conditions specified for the challenge, skilling the toddlers was doable, but not exactly easy. Also, since leaving the lot is forbidden under the challenge and the parent starts with no skills/aspiration points, there's basically not going to happen at the toddler stage. If the parent starts gardening in the child stage, it eventually becomes possible.

I'm interested in Quinctia's streamlining and, for that matter, normal style of play. What, exactly, did you do?

Well, first I built the house.  2x2 lot, flattened.  One room for the parent with the single bed with the highest energy count.  Though next time, I probably would ignore my feelings of silliness and cave and buy the vampire coffin, which has higher energy.  Bathroom with the cheap bath/shower.  I'd probably buy the expensive one next time.  I had one bedroom for the toddlers (2 cribs, 1 changing table, two potties)...mistake.  Next time, I'd follow Awesomespec and have the cribs in their own little cubicles so the kids don't wake each other.  One room for the fridge, table and chairs, and toddler toys (all three).  I bought a mid-high range priced counter and the best stove, but I wouldn't do that the next time--I'd just get something to put the gelatin on.  I bought the cheap dishwasher.  And next time, I'd use the compactor instead of a garbage can.  I'd also forego the smoke detector.  Midrange chair, cheap card table.  If I was actually playing the challenge, I'd get three cheaper chairs.

I also bought the cheapest television and the cheapest bookcase.  Next time, I'd add in a video game system.  My biggest annoyance, after kids waking each other up, was the entertainment score on the parent.

For my fourth attempt, I did buy a high-end single bed. Previously, I only bought the cheap bed; that's because I'm using a bigger lot, mainly because I pre-laid a lot of empty lots with street names to identify what I would be using them for (the twins live on Evil Street.) I've been using 2x3, 2x4, 3x3 and 3x4 lots for most of my residential spaces, so the house usually winds up costing $12,000 to $14,000 before buying furniture and appliances. Otherwise, for that attempt, I had a similar strategy, except cheap counters, no stove, no table/chairs (make 'em stand until the toddlers grow up) and only two toys, both rabbit heads, because charisma isn't trainable again until the teen years. There's a small room for one crib and a larger room for the bed and second crib. I *wanted* the kid to wake the parent up.

I did have more rooms than you, because I was thinking ahead. 3x3 Entry way, for the phone, with high-value floor and wall coverings, plus a ceiling lamp, to act as the first room for headmaster tours. Living room/skilling room, which was mostly empty on attempt four, but lots of ceiling lamps and again good-value walls and floors. Kitchen/dining area, where toddler potties are located, and doors to the nursery, bedroom, bathroom, and pantry. The pantry was an aftert thought for future testing purposes.

I went with dishwasher and trash can, but I should have skipped the washer and went with a trash compactor instead. If there's no sink or dish washer, they will throw away plates. No TV, no couch. Bookcase, but didn't even let the sim use that yet; all Fun was through the use of one cheap kid's painting.

My normal style of play includes feeding smart milk exclusively (because I can a) keep the dispenser in the nursery and b) pull out a few bottles and leave them out without spoiling) and I like toddler blankets.  I have a no-empty potty hack, but I used non-Maxis potties that aren't affected by the hack to do this little trial run.

See, Gus and I skipped the smart milk, because of the hefty score penalty: -1 for every use under the influence. So, if you smart milk one toddler, once, and manage to train all three skills, that's a -3. If the toddler is still glowing and gains a Charisma point from the wabbit head, that's another -1. Besides, it's hard to get the smart milk that early, since the parent has to build up aspiration points to buy it.

A few little "tricks" that help.  If you cancel the potty train action just as you set one kid down, the kid will train and you can have the parent do something else--put the other kid on the pot, empty the other pot, do something else entirely.  I do the same sort of thing to pull out bottles faster.

I've done that with bottles, but it seems like toddlers will autonomously cancel potty training over the slightest provocation, so I don't do that with potty training. Maybe something changed post-NL.

So, how did you avoid the aspiration bonus? Did you use Gus's "sprint for the last mile" technique? Did the toddler roll all social wants on the last day?

Frankly, I didn't.  I just wanted some visceral evidence that raising toddlers wasn't that difficult--I wasn't planning to run through the whole challenge, though I did make give them the "right personalities" so the evil twin was a pain in the ass when her motives got low.  The difficulty of actually raising them really depends on how you do the house.  It would probably be impossible to train two toddlers with one parent/no help if they started with 20,000 on a 5x5.

No, not impossible, not even if you don't smart milk. But it's not easy.

[Kyna]

My normal style of play includes feeding smart milk exclusively (because I can a) keep the dispenser in the nursery and b) pull out a few bottles and leave them out without spoiling) and I like toddler blankets.  I have a no-empty potty hack, but I used non-Maxis potties that aren't affected by the hack to do this little trial run.

See, Gus and I skipped the smart milk, because of the hefty score penalty: -1 for every use under the influence. So, if you smart milk one toddler, once, and manage to train all three skills, that's a -3. If the toddler is still glowing and gains a Charisma point from the wabbit head, that's another -1. Besides, it's hard to get the smart milk that early, since the parent has to build up aspiration points to buy it.

Can you clarify the smart milk rule for me.  If I were to give the toddlers smart milk somehow, how is the penalty calculated?  Does the penalty wear off when the glow wears off, or does it apply as long as the child has a higher IQ (i.e. for the rest of the challenge, since smart milk always sticks in my game)?

It's not unusual for even a CAS parent to have teach walk/talk/potty train wants, and satisfying those would give enough aspiration to buy smart milk.  Then it would be possible to smart milk the evil toddler before they age up to child.

It seems the secret of this challenge (apart from the toddler stage) is to make the evil twin work harder.  Make sure they have more skills, in case the good twin gains a skill point from school or a chance card on the last day of the challenge.  Make sure they have more friends, in case the good twin brings a sim home from school/work on the last day (since good twin has to befriend everyone they meet).  Smart milking the evil toddler just before aging him/her up to child would certainly reduce the time needed to keep their skill points ahead of the good twin.

I should note that, for this challenge, "no autonomy" or anything like that is forbidden, because it changes game play. Even "don't wave at me" is kind of borderline, because it gives you a few extra seconds of control, but since I haven't taken it out for my own play, I guess I'm OK with that. The reason Macrotastics is allowed is because you can do anything Macrotastics does manually. Same with BUY.

Last time I looked turning free will off was possible in a hackfree game, so it is part of non-hacked game play.

[Gus Smedstad]

My normal style of play includes feeding smart milk exclusively (because I can a) keep the dispenser in the nursery and b) pull out a few bottles and leave them out without spoiling) and I like toddler blankets. 

Well, I did say with no aspiration rewards, didn't I?  Of course cutting the training time in half with Smart Milk makes it not terrible difficult.

 - Gus

[talysman]

Can you clarify the smart milk rule for me.  If I were to give the toddlers smart milk somehow, how is the penalty calculated?  Does the penalty wear off when the glow wears off, or does it apply as long as the child has a higher IQ (i.e. for the rest of the challenge, since smart milk always sticks in my game)?

Aspiration rewards have a -1 penalty per use. Because things like smart milk, the skill helmet, the cool shades, and the love tub (not that you'll need it) have a duration instead of a cut-and-dried "one action produces one change" effect, they have a -1 for each action performed under the influence of the reward. For smart milk, the duration ends when you hear the tone that indicates the effect is over. I forget if the glow goes away before you hear the tone or not. The sticky IQ bit is not reproducible at will, without cheating, so if you luck out and get it, that's great.

It seems the secret of this challenge (apart from the toddler stage) is to make the evil twin work harder.  Make sure they have more skills, in case the good twin gains a skill point from school or a chance card on the last day of the challenge.  Make sure they have more friends, in case the good twin brings a sim home from school/work on the last day (since good twin has to befriend everyone they meet).  Smart milking the evil toddler just before aging him/her up to child would certainly reduce the time needed to keep their skill points ahead of the good twin.

More or less, that's part of the idea. The evil twin has to be just as successful as the good twin. Smart milking the toddler would put you at a penalty on the scoring, unless you didn't have the toddler skill or otherwise improve during the duration of the effect, AND you just happened to luck out and get the permanent IQ boost.

I should note that, for this challenge, "no autonomy" or anything like that is forbidden, because it changes game play. Even "don't wave at me" is kind of borderline, because it gives you a few extra seconds of control, but since I haven't taken it out for my own play, I guess I'm OK with that. The reason Macrotastics is allowed is because you can do anything Macrotastics does manually. Same with BUY.

Last time I looked turning free will off was possible in a hackfree game, so it is part of non-hacked game play.

This quote is about a hack that disables autonomous jumping on the bed, or similar one-or-two-behavior hacks. Turning off free will turns off lots of behaviors; these hacks only turn off specific behaviors, which is not achievable under normal game play.

Turning off free will, period, is also against the challenge. I just added that recently, because Pescado said the challenge was too easy. I'm now considering outlawing all reward objects, period, to eliminate the question of how to calculate the smart milk penalty, and to close off that loophole you just found (smart milking, not skilling/training, and hoping for a permanent IQ boost.)

[kuronue]

Well, it's been ages since I raised toddlers, but I didn't have much trouble. I was only nominally keeping to the challenge rules - I realized partway through that letting the little buggers sleep on the ground probably counts as passing out, and they wet themselves a good deal because i usually don't care if they do or not, so I failed the challenge part miserably scoring-wise, but the one twin grew up well and the other grew up badly; furthermore, i used one adult, no nanny, no baby controller, and no aspiration rewards and it was perfectly fine.

my strategy is: focus on the bad twin first. It may seem counter-productive, but with free will on the good twin can look after herself just fine. My bad twin rolled social wants exclusively the first day or so, so it was cake to get her walking and talking. The only want she satisfied was buying a toy the first day, and that wore off by the time she was ready to grow up. The only adult motive I had trouble with was comfort, because i bought cheap things with low comfort scores; a lawn gnome took care of fun, macro->eat had her full, and I bought a coffin to sleep in. I eventually had her lounging between child feedings to take care of that.

[Quinctia]

I did have more rooms than you, because I was thinking ahead. 3x3 Entry way, for the phone, with high-value floor and wall coverings, plus a ceiling lamp, to act as the first room for headmaster tours. Living room/skilling room, which was mostly empty on attempt four, but lots of ceiling lamps and again good-value walls and floors. Kitchen/dining area, where toddler potties are located, and doors to the nursery, bedroom, bathroom, and pantry. The pantry was an aftert thought for future testing purposes.

I went with dishwasher and trash can, but I should have skipped the washer and went with a trash compactor instead. If there's no sink or dish washer, they will throw away plates. No TV, no couch. Bookcase, but didn't even let the sim use that yet; all Fun was through the use of one cheap kid's painting.

I forgot about the compactor thing.  If you were going to attempt gardening, it'd be even better to get a composter.  2x2 is more than big enough for the needs of three sims, and I had over 3000 in the kitty when the kids aged up--plus, that was where I would have the adult get a job in something like the Education career, so I could use all of the money, have some left for bills, and still not have to pay a nanny.  Long term, I would've been fine, but the house build was a quickie.  I had to work this morning, so I wanted to hurry up and do all that and go to bed.

See, Gus and I skipped the smart milk, because of the hefty score penalty: -1 for every use under the influence. So, if you smart milk one toddler, once, and manage to train all three skills, that's a -3. If the toddler is still glowing and gains a Charisma point from the wabbit head, that's another -1. Besides, it's hard to get the smart milk that early, since the parent has to build up aspiration points to buy it.

I think you misunderstood me.  I didn't use the smart milk here, either.  But I normally do because it's there and doesn't spoil, not for making them smart.  I don't bother to see if their smartness becomes "fixed"...if it does, I don't bother to put it back if something resets them.  It's more fun in regular play to let them run amok instead of micromanaging their every last skills.

I've done that with bottles, but it seems like toddlers will autonomously cancel potty training over the slightest provocation, so I don't do that with potty training. Maybe something changed post-NL.

I had one potty training "battle" with the evil twin.  I upped her social with interactions that weren't in her want panel (since that was mainly the need she was lacking), fed her a bottle, and put her back on the pot.

[Sagana]

I've done Toddlermania (and another similar challenge) several times. Since you get points for each skill trained, and obviously the idea of any challenge is to max points, training all 7 toddlers in all 3 skills is a big deal, and although I didn't quite make it, I did respectably (2 with all 3, and the others with 2) and have seen people do it. Learning to talk is *much* faster than potty training and even walking, btw. The point is specifically to grow them up platinum, rather than make sure one isn't, so that part would take some consideration for this challenge. BTW, you can change diapers a good number of times and still have time to potty train them - every time I've played, all the toddlers were potty trained and I lost a number of points for diapers.

Neither version I've played disallows aspiration rewards but they all require starting with a CAS sim and 7 toddlers (not infants) so getting enough points for smart milk (much less an energizer) is difficult. Most don't get there until the last day (and actually a Family sim is not a good start if you want early aspiration rewards - some of the others are easier. My family got points for buying toilet, fridge, and shower, then rolled 2 wants to potty train (got to finish doing that before you get points for them), a want to fall in love and a want to marry - and since he didn't sleep, they didn't ever roll.) The best (hardest) version also takes away points for every diaper change needed, any time the kid falls asleep on the floor, and any social worker *warning* which includes the one for low social. It's really a difficult challenge.

Nannies are useless - don't bother with one. If you really feel a need to hire someone, hire a maid and let her pick up the bottles, wasth the dishes, pick up dirty diapers if there are any (or if you've run out of time and dumped the potty chair on the floor) etc. She's useful, a nanny isn't. Your parent/caretaker sim should never sleep. Don't bother to buy a bed at all. Instead buy a bunch of caffination stations and serve espresso and leave it there for whenever it's needed. Don't let the sim get all the way down in energy, if energy starts to go yellow, drink caffeine. It comes up faster if you don't let it go into the red.

A toddler won't play in the community lot bathroom stalls, so use those. You can also put the bathroom up on a stage/half platform so the kid can't get to it, but then they'll complain they can't. They won't complain about the stall.

I didn't see, on a quick second run through, anything disallowing the parent from opening a business. If you open a home business, the shoppers will help take care of the kids and pay you for the pleasure. They'll get them in and out of bed, play with them (you'd need to watch the evil twin that one of the visitors didn't solve a social want), and even bathe them.

I played this prior to season's so there was no fall reward.  I made my caretaker group meals and kept them in inventory - that involves the hand and wouldn't be allowed in this challenge, I guess, but group meals of gelatin laying around would work fine. Room dividers keep toddler sims from waking each other up, so you don't need walls. Put the toddler on the potty and just as the sim turns around to walk away, click on cancel on the caretaker and you can use let the parent do something else. If you click at the wrong time (or happen to have the toddler selected) you'll cancel the action and have to empty the potty before you can start again (a pain). Also cancel the potty emptying action and it'll turn into trash. That's faster to clean up. And if you cancel the fed bottle after you get the bottle out, they'll put bottles on the floor and the kids can get them themselves. Since Seasons (or FT maybe) bottles spoil faster though, so you can't leave as many around for extras.

If you need a little extra time, make sure the kid is asleep at the hour marker, and then get the training started. The 'help grow up' thing won't interrupt a skill session.

[talysman]

I've done the toddler mania challenge a couple times. Those rules allow unlimited wealth cheats and a hacked energy maximizer object, so "don't ever sleep", "buy lots of caffeine objects", "put toilet or bathroom on a pedestal" and stuff like that makes sense.

In this challenge, you have $20,000 and no hacks. Very different conditions, even without the restrictions on growing up well.

On another note: bother kuronue and Quinctia mention the vampire coffin, an option that didn't occur to me since non-vampires can't buy or use that in NL. I forget which expansion pack made it usable by all. I should probably outlaw that, then, to make the challenge more equal between different expansions.

[sloppyhousewife]

I've done the toddler mania challenge a couple times. Those rules allow unlimited wealth cheats and a hacked energy maximizer object, so "don't ever sleep", "buy lots of caffeine objects", "put toilet or bathroom on a pedestal" and stuff like that makes sense.

In this challenge, you have $20,000 and no hacks. Very different conditions, even without the restrictions on growing up well.

Those very different conditions have no influence on what Sagana said. You don't need to sleep if you caffeinate (which fills the energy bar way faster than sleeping anyway), so you don't need to buy a bed or build a bedroom. For a house just big enough for one adult and two toddlers, one caffeinating station should be enough. Also, stages aren't expensive (nor are toilet stalls). You really don't need hacks or extended funds for that.

[Sagana]

I've done the toddler mania challenge a couple times. Those rules allow unlimited wealth cheats and a hacked energy maximizer object, so "don't ever sleep", "buy lots of caffeine objects", "put toilet or bathroom on a pedestal" and stuff like that makes sense.

In this challenge, you have $20,000 and no hacks. Very different conditions, even without the restrictions on growing up well.

Well you're not very good at it, are you? You lose points for using a hack and why bother when you can caffeinate? And you don't need unlimited funds to buy that stuff - it's cheaper than an expensive coffin by far. 7 Todders (the other Toddler one I've personally played) doesn't allow either of those things anyway. There's plenty of money, especially when you use room dividers instead of walls. And the home business brings in money if you need more.

The same strategies work just fine. Pescado seems to have been trying to tell you, you're not doing it right.

[Gus Smedstad]

BTW, you can change diapers a good number of times and still have time to potty train them - every time I've played, all the toddlers were potty trained and I lost a number of points for diapers.

Are you sure about that?  I had the impression the limit was 2, maybe 3 tops before you lost too much potty time.  If you're dealing with 7 toddlers, that can translate to 14-21 diapers, which is a "good number of times" without being a lot for each toddler.

Neither version I've played disallows aspiration rewards but they all require starting with a CAS sim and 7 toddlers (not infants) so getting enough points for smart milk (much less an energizer) is difficult.

I didn't even think about that.  I wasn't looking at the rewards area at all, so I wasn't checking how many points were available.  Normally by the time my Sims have a kid, they have more points than they can ever spend.

Someone needs to make a hack that multiplies the cost of those rewards by 50 or so.

Instead buy a bunch of caffination stations and serve espresso and leave it there for whenever it's needed.

Crap, I used a bed because the regular coffee machine doesn't give enough energy.  I didn't think to try espresso.  Since the major bottleneck is the adult's energy, that makes a big difference in the difficulty.

If you open a home business, the shoppers will help take care of the kids and pay you for the pleasure.

That's a cute idea.  I wonder if you can get the same effects by inviting random strangers in?  The first time I let the welcome wagon in, but they didn't really help so I didn't bother again.

I made my caretaker group meals and kept them in inventory - that involves the hand and wouldn't be allowed in this challenge, I guess, but group meals of gelatin laying around would work fine.

The Leftovers introduced with Seasons will give you nearly the same effect.

Put the toddler on the potty and just as the sim turns around to walk away, click on cancel on the caretaker and you can use let the parent do something else.

That feels pretty cheaty, though I can understand why you'd need it for 7 toddlers.  Waiting for potty is a major timesuck, and it's fairly clear that it's intended that the adult must spend the time on it, but there's a loophole that allows you to get the benefit without paying the time cost.

 - Gus

[Zazazu]

I've done the toddler mania challenge a couple times. Those rules allow unlimited wealth cheats and a hacked energy maximizer object, so "don't ever sleep", "buy lots of caffeine objects", "put toilet or bathroom on a pedestal" and stuff like that makes sense.

1. It's not a hacked energy maximizer. It's the game's aspiration reward. Big important difference.
2. "don't sleep", "buy lots of caffeine objects", etc. don't only apply because you have 7 toddlers in a house with a single sim. They are challenge strategies.

Challenges teach you how to look at the game differently, in a way where efficiency trumps story. You don't seem to be able to deal with this. Perhaps challenges shouldn't be your thing, and you should keep to story-driven play (speaking as someone who generally finds challenges boring as hell).

If you open a home business, the shoppers will help take care of the kids and pay you for the pleasure.

That's a cute idea.  I wonder if you can get the same effects by inviting random strangers in?  The first time I let the welcome wagon in, but they didn't really help so I didn't bother again.

Yes, but they of course wouldn't pay you. Inviting passers-by off the street has long been something I've done in single-sim homes. I'm tempted to start a toddler petting zoo now.

[jolrei]

Challenges teach you how to look at the game differently, in a way where efficiency trumps story. You don't seem to be able to deal with this. Perhaps challenges shouldn't be your thing, and you should keep to story-driven play (speaking as someone who generally finds challenges boring as hell).

And if you are almost completely story driven, like me, your sims end up doing all kinds of interesting things without ever gaining skills, badges, enthusiasm, or anything else that a challenge might give points for.  This is why Jelenedra continues to be the french-fry girl of Matysdoorp.

[Sagana]

BTW, you can change diapers a good number of times and still have time to potty train them - every time I've played, all the toddlers were potty trained and I lost a number of points for diapers.

Are you sure about that?  I had the impression the limit was 2, maybe 3 tops before you lost too much potty time.  If you're dealing with 7 toddlers, that can translate to 14-21 diapers, which is a "good number of times" without being a lot for each toddler.

It might be just 2 or 3 tops per kid, but that should be all you need to get hygiene high enough to let them potty train again. You usually only need to bathe toddlers once or twice during the time period - at least if their space is fairly clean. I haven't done real testing, but just from playing I'm convinced their hygiene scores go down faster if there's a lot of trash around (like you empty the potties on the floor). Changing their diaper maxes hygiene back out (or somewhere close to max), so it's a great strategy if there's an issue and no time for a bath.

I didn't even think about that.  I wasn't looking at the rewards area at all, so I wasn't checking how many points were available.  Normally by the time my Sims have a kid, they have more points than they can ever spend.

Someone needs to make a hack that multiplies the cost of those rewards by 50 or so.

Mine too so I was pretty surprised to discover it can be difficult A family sim truely is harder than some of the others. I did use smart milk and the energizer, but not until the very end of the challenge any of the times I played. The hack would be nice, though honestly I don't use aspiration rewards at all in regular game play.

If you open a home business, the shoppers will help take care of the kids and pay you for the pleasure.

That's a cute idea.  I wonder if you can get the same effects by inviting random strangers in?  The first time I let the welcome wagon in, but they didn't really help so I didn't bother again.

I dunno about visitors - it takes time to go and greet them (you have more time in this challenge of course) and there are a lot less - with 3+ on the lot all the time a couple of them are bound to be handy even if the rest are just useless (just tell them to leave). An acquaintance happen to have servos in the hood she played the challenge in and they came as shoppers and basically just took care of the kids for her. That felt a bit too cheaty to me, especially as I didn't already have any servos and would have had to make them specifically for that, so I didn't try it.

I made my caretaker group meals and kept them in inventory - that involves the hand and wouldn't be allowed in this challenge, I guess, but group meals of gelatin laying around would work fine.

The Leftovers introduced with Seasons will give you nearly the same effect.

Yep, is that allowed in this one? I'm not clear on the higher EP rules for it.

Put the toddler on the potty and just as the sim turns around to walk away, click on cancel on the caretaker and you can use let the parent do something else.

That feels pretty cheaty, though I can understand why you'd need it for 7 toddlers.  Waiting for potty is a major timesuck, and it's fairly clear that it's intended that the adult must spend the time on it, but there's a loophole that allows you to get the benefit without paying the time cost.

I dunno, if you're trying to simulate life, seems to me like you could put both kids on a potty one after another without standing around whistling inbetween. How about, cancelling only to put the 2nd one on as well and then waiting for it for both? Anyway, it's an in-game strategy - the kind of loophole JM uses without thinking, so if you're competing on scores... you need it for 7 toddlers, probably don't for just 2, but in that case it wouldn't change your score either.

[Sagana]

I've done the toddler mania challenge a couple times. Those rules allow unlimited wealth cheats and a hacked energy maximizer object, so "don't ever sleep", "buy lots of caffeine objects", "put toilet or bathroom on a pedestal" and stuff like that makes sense.

1. It's not a hacked energy maximizer. It's the game's aspiration reward. Big important difference.
2. "don't sleep", "buy lots of caffeine objects", etc. don't only apply because you have 7 toddlers in a house with a single sim. They are challenge strategies.

Actually Toddlermania does allow an energy hack, but you lose points for using it... *shrug*. 7 Toddlers doesn't. People on a list I was on claimed 7 Toddlers is harder for that reason - it's not. Toddlermania's scoring (especially the advanced scoring rules) make it a lot harder. And, of course, if I'm going to do a challenge, I do play to win as well. Losing points does not == winning.

I don't usually play challenges either. My hoods are very story-driven... but I like toddlers and enjoyed the toddler ones. They're short so I can go right back to my story after.

[Gus Smedstad]

[And if you are almost completely story driven, like me, your sims end up doing all kinds of interesting things without ever gaining skills, badges, enthusiasm, or anything else that a challenge might give points for.

Skilling, badges, and enthusiasm are pretty boring in themselves.

I'm not creative enough to come up with stories that I'd enjoy.  Rather, I tend to let things evolve, and if I happen to come up with a story-type idea I want to pursue I'll do so.  But most of the time I don't have any ideas, so I'll just run around filling Wants until something presents itself.

 - Gus

[Zazazu]

I don't usually play challenges either. My hoods are very story-driven... but I like toddlers and enjoyed the toddler ones. They're short so I can go right back to my story after.

I did 7 Toddlers ages ago, just for a distraction. I was doing a psuedo-alphabet legacy mixed with regular legacy and apocalypse. No rules strictly adhered to and plenty of restrictions changed to make more sense to me. Ended up working the 7 toddlers in (in my head if not on paper) as I decided that they were the orphans of all those zombified Romance sims the Oversoul released its wrath on. The Oversoul doesn't kill kids, and Romance sims are such skanks they would of course have a bunch of ankle-biters on the sly. Risky woohoo, and all that.

Skilling, badges, and enthusiasm are pretty boring in themselves.

I'm not creative enough to come up with stories that I'd enjoy.  Rather, I tend to let things evolve, and if I happen to come up with a story-type idea I want to pursue I'll do so.  But most of the time I don't have any ideas, so I'll just run around filling Wants until something presents itself.

Half the time, anymore, I don't even pay attention to wants until I notice that they are starting to worry about their aspiration level. My sims have roles to fulfill (Teardrop Isle) or I'm just letting them run amok and amuse me (Prospect Beach) so that I can later make sense of their antics. How else do you get a gramma who moves in, later loses her mind and wanders about the 'hood, practically burning down the house and risking the youngest child being taken by the social worker?*  Heck, even Teardrop Isle (which is kind of scripted) only got that way after I noticed that two of the brothers wanted to make the moves on the same girl, and how fugly the custom child outfit from the sewing machine was.


*Tombstone of L&D move-ins are now borked. Noticed with FreeTime. If you use it, immediately save, moveobjects on, and delete new sim, then leave lot and return. Otherwise they wander off until the next time you load the lot.