The Challenge Challenge!

[Jack Rudd]

How can you build charisma without skill building objects or caged pets?

With difficulty. (There are some career tracks that have Charisma gains as rewards for the chance cards.)

Not that you necessarily need Charisma: it has little on-lot use, and it is not required for all careers - Culinary, Medical, Criminal, Law Enforcement and Science are the original career tracks that do not need it.

[aguawaterhesjing]

Before you put up the other two parts of this challenge, I thought it might be helpful for you if this one was analysed so that you can see exactly what we think is wrong with it.

subject #1=> 1 teen Sim
C.A.S.--->Teen w/1 or 2 parents and kill/delete them

  Why not use the age sims cheat? Create an adult sim in CAS, then turn the age sims cheat on, and age the target sim down to teen.  Healthier for your neighbourhood than creating useless, unneccessary character files.  Deleting sims is a VERY BAD THING to do - this is a great way to stuff up your neighbourhood.

all cheats/hacks illegal---> if you use one at anytime after starting up the Sims you must not use any cheats immediate failure if you open up the cheat box

  OK, so I'll take out harder jobs.  That makes this challenge easier than my normal gameplay.

rewards are illegal---> if you get a reward you lose

  The culinary reward is useless anyway, and the only asp reward I routinely use is the smart milk, so no difference to my normal gameplay here.

challenge ends when---> target Sim gets to level 10 in the culinary career or target sim dies

  I can't even remember the last time I had an accidental death, so challenge will end when sim hits the top of the career.  Short challenge.

you must only allow the Sim to get promoted without the chance card, you immediately fail if you use the first chance card (doing research on this concept right now; if impossible then I will remove this restriction)

  Not hard.

you can only export/lose the parent Sim/s

  Or create without parent sims, using the age sims cheat.

no Sim/s can join lot except for your Sim's mate if s/he's a Maxis created Sim

  Most people I know create a custom neighbourhood for challenges, and many people at this site use clean neighbourhood templates, so that the only townies in the neighbourhood are those we created ourselves.  Are you saying I need to replace my clean templates with the original templates just for this short challenge, just so that I have Maxis-created fugly townies for the target sim to marry?

Pointing System
-5 points for every time target Sim is demotion

  Is it even possible to get demoted without using chance cards?  I've never seen it, and I've been playing the game since before Uni was released.

+5 points for every time target Sim is promoted (if Sim gets fired or demoted Sim doesn't get points until the Sim gets back to the level it was at before the firing or demotion)

  So a guaranteed +45 points for the 9 promotions (less if I send teen to uni, or get the job from the computer)

-10 points for every time target Sim is fired

  See my response to the demotion point loss.  Never going to happen without chance cards.

+10 points when Sim fulfills their starting L.T.W.

Easy.  My CAS sims fill several lifetime wants, even with harder jobs in my game.  Since I can't reroll the LTW (no hacks allowed), the only risky aspiration would be Romance with the possibility of woohoo LTWs - although pre-marital woohoo is banned, but not extramarital woohoo, so not so risky after all.

-15 points every time Sim misses work

  Well, in the unlikely event that the sim misses the carpool, there's always the car.

+15 points if Sim doesn't get their first kiss (the wedding kiss does not count as the first kiss nor does greeting kisses

So no kissing, not even after they get married.  Weird way to have a relationship, but it doesn't affect the outcome of the challenge.

-20 points every time Sim burns food or starts a house fire

  Finally a penalty that might actually apply.

+20 points if Sim grows up well

  It's not easy to have a sim grow up badly, on the few times it's happened in my game without me deliberately trying for it, it's because a grandparent has died right before the aging up - which won't happen in this game.  So here's a guaranteed +40 points (grow up well going to uni plus growing up well graduating from uni)

-25 points if Sim has premarital Woo-Hoo

  Easy enough to avoid if I don't have ACR in my game.

+25 points if Sim gets Woo-Hoo on their wedding night.

  Well, duh.  Of course I'd make this one happen.

-30 points if Sim uses buffet table or gets delivery

  Easy enough to avoid this penalty.

+30 points if Sim buys fridge food from a local store

  A bonus that can be exploited endlessly.

So most of your penalties are extremely unlikely to apply.  You have an exploitable bonus for basically infinite points.  There are no restrictions on things that should be restricted (such as choice of seasons, or going to community lots for socialising, or if jobs can be acquired from the computer, or any restrictions at all on uni).

If I were playing this, I'd set the seasons to permanent autumn for fast skilling and daily promotions, with Downtown at permanent summer for socialising.  I'd send the teen to uni (permanent autumn again), get them in the right degree for culinary, visit downtown a lot to make enough friends for their career while still a YA, max out their skills (I'd make them knowledge so this may be their LTW), graduate Summa Cum Laude, then send them back home to get married, get laid, and get a job at level 9 culinary as soon as the job is on the computer.  If their LTW career comes up before culinary on the computer I'd take the LTW career first for an extra LTW point bonus.

um...this is not the original one i wrote up...that's the one I'm gonna post up...so yeah...it was pointless for you to type all that stuff.

[Jelenedra]

She was offering advice. Y'know... explaining why the first one you posted was bad. You're supposed to read it... and go... "Oh. Okay, I'll avoid this in the one I rewrite." Don't be an asshat. Just post your remixed challenge instead of talking about it.

[J. M. Pescado]

I suggest starting your own thread for your challenge.

[Yecats]

I'm gonna give the negative memory one a shot.  I tried the insane asylum one, didn't finish it but i'll go back to it.

I have no patience for a lot of the macro stuff now... I used to be able to play for hours straight, but now even half an hour makes me wince.

Lets see if I can make it 50 days without killing my sims *too* badly...

[Maxwell]

So I was starting a new eXtreme Legacy Challenge (I don't intend to follow the rules rigorously, but it should provide some much-needed structure for my too-infrequent play), when I hit on the following idea.

Stop me if this has been done before, or, more likely, when you find the loophole. The golden path for winning this challenge is not obvious to me, even after a few minutes of thinking about it. I'm sure you challenge addicts can find it, though.

The Making Do With Less Challenge

The goal of the challenge is to raise a child from birth to death on a single lot... a lot with as few objects or buildings on it as possible.

Rules:
Create an adult sim in CAS, any way you like. Move this sim into a 5x6 "Huge" lot, leaving the poor bastard with only $1500 to his or her name. (The lot size isn't important at all, just the starting money; if you like, you can achieve this condition using a smaller lot and your choice of cheats).

The parent Sim must, sometime prior to their death, spawn a child. The child Sim must never leave the lot he or she is born on, except to attend school or work. The child must not attend college. The challenge ends with the death of the child. If the child dies before reaching Elder, you automatically fail. Neither the parent nor the child may leave the lot except to attend work or school; in particular, they must never visit a community lot and raise skills or motives.

You may move in as many additional Sims as you like, so long as you wait no less than 5 days between move-ins, and each move-in contributes at most $1000 to the family's funds. You may have as many additional children as you like. If either the parent or child Sim attains permanent platinum mood, you must use the Lot Debugger to remove such immediately after gaining it. Failure to do so will forfeit the Challenge.

Scoring:

• +10 points if the child attains platinum aspiration level as a toddler and never dips back into gold
• +5 points if the child attains gold aspiration level as a toddler and never dips below gold (does not stack with +10 for platinum)
• +2 points if the child is admitted to private school
• +1 point if the parent dies a platinum death
• -1 point if the child does not die a platinum death

• -1 point for every hour the parent spends at least partly in red (i.e., below 0) mood
• -5 points for every hour the parent spends at least partly at red aspiration level
• -10 points for every time the parent enters aspiration failure
• -2 points for every hour the child spends at least partly in red (i.e., below 0) mood
• -10 points for every hour the child spends at least partly at red aspiration level
• -20 points for every time the child enters aspiration failure

• -2 points for every object on the lot at the end of the challenge
• -10 points for every object that you acquire and later get rid of
• -5 points for every linear stretch of wall or halfwall on the lot (no matter what its length; a normal rectangular room, composed of 4 sides (as most rectangles are), would then be -20 points)
• -5 points for every tile fully enclosed by walls or halfwalls (a 4x4 rectangular room would therefore suffer -20 + 16*-5 = -100 points total; by dividing it in half down the center, you lose another 5 points for the wall, but as you enclose the same number of tiles, it's only -105 points total)
• -20 points for every item on the lot whose function is entirely duplicated by another item (except purely decorative/no-use items... which you shouldn't be buying anyway!) (Examples: having both a cheap and an expensive telescope is -40 because either telescope could replace the other; having a stove and a toaster oven is -20, because the stove could replace the toaster oven; having a television and a bookcase is -0, since even though both can teach cooking, they have functions the other does not)

Scoring Exceptions:
The Lot Debugger and other pure-hack items that provide no direct benefit to Sims' motives, finances, or relationships do not count against the number of items on the lot. Use your own discretion. If an item is delivered to your lot by a Sim not under your control (date flowers, for example), you take no penalties if you burninate the item immediately after it arrives on your lot. If the item is Rod Humble's computer, you automatically lose the challenge for not being awesome enough. Expired aspiration rewards and similar do not count as having "duplicate functionality;" a burnt-out Energizer is good for nothing, but a charged Energizer obviously still has some use. You just take the usual penalty of -2 per object for each one you've got, or -10 each if you sell them.

Custom Content:
All Awesome hacks are allowed. No custom content that provides functionality not available with regular TS2 Maxis objects is allowed (example: the porta-potty salvaged from one of the Stories games is forbidden). It should be pretty obvious if custom content provides functionality advantageous to this Challenge; if so, it's banned. Money cheats are not allowed; building cheats are (if you'd like to run your score into the ground, who am I to stop you?).

[J. M. Pescado]

Stop me if this has been done before, or, more likely, when you find the loophole. The golden path for winning this challenge is not obvious to me, even after a few minutes of thinking about it. I'm sure you challenge addicts can find it, though.

All too easy. Here's the solve:
Install your parent sim on an empty lot. Never buy an actual object. As the parent sim is not obligated to stay on the lot, according to the rules as given, the parent may freely leave the lot and pursue any community lot functionality. Do so. Gain all skills, become a plantsim. Now spawn, but do so normally, as you will miss the private school points otherwise. Use the Knowledge aspiraton perk "impart knowledge" to gain the skills needed to meditate. Use the Plantsim Happy Spores ability to restore child motives. Once child becomes a teen, meditate when not at school until dead (no points are given for any other achievements, and money is not needed when living on an empty lot, as the repo man cannot repossess objects with no objects on lot). Incidentally, the +10 for platinum-as-toddler-and-never-gold is a mathematically impossible goal, since the change in aspiration bar fill size at age transition automatically drops you back to gold because max toddler ASP is only gold child ASP. Assuming you disregard bar-loss due to age-up, then this is still easy.

So, optrun:
+10/+5 for plat/gold.
+2 for private school.
No negative points due to mood restorer spores and no objects ever.

Final score: 12 or 7, depending on ruling for age-up ASPbar expansion.
Difficulty: Low.

[aqualectrix]

Ah, but you are wrong about the restrictions on the parent sim:

Neither the parent nor the child may leave the lot except to attend work or school; in particular, they must never visit a community lot and raise skills or motives.

[Kyna]

Well, a community lot is not required for Pescado's approach, it just makes it easier.  The parent and the child (once it's old enough) could gain enough logic to meditate from the newspaper.  And the parent could become a plant sim from one tree.  So all they need is a chair (to sit on to do the crossword) and a fruit tree.  Before the parent becomes a plant sim they could date a lot at home to keep moods up, and then sell the date rewards with no penalty.

I'm not awesome enough to try Pescado's approach.  For us lesser mortals, I note there are penalties on walls & half-walls.  But there are none on floor dividers, nor on floor tiles that are fully enclosed by floor dividers.  Was that a deliberate loophole?

[Ellatrue]

Bah. They get to start with $1500, and the parent gets to LIVE? All you need is an easel, foundation walls for the house plus free roof, and a fridge. Challenge is pointless. See MINE. Plus, you allow other sims to move in. The bottom third of the scoring is interesting, though. I like it.

[J. M. Pescado]

Bah. They get to start with $1500, and the parent gets to LIVE? All you need is an easel, foundation walls for the house plus free roof, and a fridge. Challenge is pointless. See MINE. Plus, you allow other sims to move in. The bottom third of the scoring is interesting, though. I like it.

The problem is that you lose if you buy any objects or walls, because having an object or wall gives you negative points, and even more if you actually get rid of it later for some sadistic reason. Since you cannot have objects, money is therefore meaningless. As there are no open score loops, negative points mean automatic defeat.

Ah, but you are wrong about the restrictions on the parent sim:

Neither the parent nor the child may leave the lot except to attend work or school; in particular, they must never visit a community lot and raise skills or motives.

So I see. It's in a different section. Changes nothing. The work or school loophole covers this case.

[talysman]

• -1 point for every hour the parent spends at least partly in red (i.e., below 0) mood
• -5 points for every hour the parent spends at least partly at red aspiration level
• -10 points for every time the parent enters aspiration failure
• -2 points for every hour the child spends at least partly in red (i.e., below 0) mood
• -10 points for every hour the child spends at least partly at red aspiration level
• -20 points for every time the child enters aspiration failure

I don't like this scoring, it's bean-counting. The aspiration failure penalties are bearable, but just barely. But you have to note the times each sim enters and exits a mood level?

The object and wall penalties are pretty annoying, too. For the walls, I'd recommend a flat penalty for every enclosed room, if anything. Then, at the end of the challenge, deduct the original cost of the lot from the final cost of the lot to get your penalty. Much easier.

Also, you should define "on the lot". Otherwise, there's an enormous loophole via the Inventory. Buy anything you desire, use it, put it in your inventory. As written, object is not on the lot and you didn't sell it, so no penalty. I thought of this when I considered Kyna's suggestion of dating to boost moods. You have to call up your date, unless you are just dating walk-bys (there's a name for that kind of dating...) Cell Phone, assuming you can get one, is stored in inventory.

P.S. Pescado: since the parent can't leave the lot, the only way to gain logic is via the crossword puzzle, which requires buying a chair, and the only way to try for baby is to buy a bed or other woo-hoo object. That's either -4 or -20, depending on whether you sell them off when done. Or no penalty, if that inventory loophole applies.

Does a tree on the lot count as an object?

[Jack Rudd]

Objects, there is a restriction on. Garden plots there is not. Put down lots of garden plots. Plant eggplants! Sufficiently many eggplants should allow you to max skills out, no problem.

EDIT: Oh expletive, that requires a juicer and something to put it on. Hmmm, another -4 there. (Or 0 with the inventory cheat.)

[kuronue]

well that's an easy fix - ban special sims. No plantsim = no happy spores = need for objects to keep the baby/toddler/child happy. Also count garden trees as objects and garden plots as floor tiles?

[cari]

Also count garden trees as objects and garden plots as floor tiles?

Only walls are penalized, not floors (are they more comfortable to pass out on than bare ground?), though as Jack Rudd pointed out, the juicer is needed to make use of anything grown. I would ban inventory cheating... and if you manage to get a cell phone (gifted from another playable?) count it as an object. Making due with less means no calling friends on demand!

Someone should make a challenge more challenging than sustaining yourself over a long period of time by dating and meditating.

[Ellatrue]

Challenges like this are especially hard to design, I think, because the game just throws money and motive boosting stuff at the sims. Especially if someone has all the EP's, the number of housekeeping rules you have to make to keep the challenge from breaking gets ridiculous. In addition, banning/limiting stuff can limit the range of actions available to the player, and sometimes make the gameplay less interesting. I'm not sure how best to resolve this, other than trying to balance the challenge toward more interesting options, and awarding bonus points for a few extra challengy things to allow it to be played in multiple ways.

How does freetime affect poverty/spartan type challenges? Hmm. There's one: the Sparta Challenge.

[kuronue]

floors aren't penalized unless they're enclosed by walls, I would add the number of garden plots on the lot total up and count that as though it were enclosed by walls.

also, count things in the inventory as though they were on the lot, that fixes that loophole.

And, no meditating? No, a better way is to reward the act of doing things. Or penalize the lack of doing things - maybe for every day you don't earn a skill point, -1 point? ooh, then you'd have to pace yourself and shit...

[J. M. Pescado]

P.S. Pescado: since the parent can't leave the lot, the only way to gain logic is via the crossword puzzle, which requires buying a chair, and the only way to try for baby is to buy a bed or other woo-hoo object.

You're not thinking out of the box, then. The rules explicitly permit leaving the lot for work/school.

[Kyna]

Community lots are banned.  What about business lots?  Can the parent own a business that is not on the home lot?

Does the parent's job have to be a standard career?  Or can they be employed by another playable?  I could see the parent being employed at a farming lot, where they could become a plant sim.

[talysman]

P.S. Pescado: since the parent can't leave the lot, the only way to gain logic is via the crossword puzzle, which requires buying a chair, and the only way to try for baby is to buy a bed or other woo-hoo object.

You're not thinking out of the box, then. The rules explicitly permit leaving the lot for work/school.

And they also explicitly state "no community lots or skilling off lot." Technically, a business lot that isn't a home lot is a community lot. I suppose it's a question of whether the rules are saying "don't leave the lot except through the go to work/go to school action" or "don't visit another lot at all, only leave the lot via the normal career carpool or the school bus".

Will we get a ruling on that, and on the Inventory loophole?

Oh, and since I haven't installed OFB yet, I'm wondering: is there a way to get a job on an OFB lot without a phone? As I understood it, it's certainly not possible to start a business without either a phone or a computer.

[Kyna]

Oh, and since I haven't installed OFB yet, I'm wondering: is there a way to get a job on an OFB lot without a phone? As I understood it, it's certainly not possible to start a business without either a phone or a computer.

Yes, it is possible to get a job on an OFB lot without a phone.  The playable sim that owns the lot could hire the challenge sim in person.  Play the business owner for long enough and the challenge sim will turn up, either as a walkby at home, as a customer in the business, or while the business owner is visiting a comm lot.

[Ellatrue]

You don't need a chair to do the crossword, or to read a book, IIRC. Sims will do the crossword standing or sit on the ground to read.

I'm working on a similar challenge anyway about doing with less/poverty etc, but could use some more input as I'm kind of stuck on certain issues. Perhaps you'd rather take a look at that thread instead, and apply your thoughts there?

[BLATANT PLUG] The challenge is here:
http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php/topic,9325.0.html
PLZ GIV FEEDBAK K?

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[sloppyhousewife]

Technically, a business lot that isn't a home lot is a community lot.

And a business lot that IS a home lot is not. So it's allowed to hire the challenge sim if you run a home business. You don't even have to wait until you bump into him/her if you have the network(?) perk that allows you to call everyone in the neighborhood.

And they also explicitly state "no community lots or skilling off lot."

Not true. They only state that you're not allowed to skill on community lots:

in particular, they must never visit a community lot and raise skills or motives.

Otherwise, you weren't even allowed to eat at work (if you have a "workpool" job), as this does happen off lot, obviously.

[Kyna]

Technically, a business lot that isn't a home lot is a community lot.

And a business lot that IS a home lot is not. So it's allowed to hire the challenge sim if you run a home business. You don't even have to wait until you bump into him/her if you have the network(?) perk that allows you to call everyone in the neighborhood.

If the challenge sim doesn't have a phone, then the owner of the home business would have to wait until they bumped into the challenge sim.  Even with the networking perk, they couldn't call a sim without a phone.

[Zazazu]

Does a sim actually have to have a phone to be part of the hire pool you can call the "service" to access?