Survey on VS

[Oddysey]

Carrigon's okay, but has always given off a certain sort of "new age" vibe that I personally dislike. It may very well be completely erroneous, but it is the impression I get from her downloads, and that flavor is one of the reasons why I've never been that interested in them.

The social dynamics of forums would be an interesting topic of study. Combine censorship based control with internet anonymity, add a healthy dose of general idiocy (graciously provided by the joyous portal to the Sims community that is the BBS) and you get something . . . interesting. Backstabbing, drama, obsession. This is why I judiciously avoid tact. Although I can piss people off, at least they know about it, and have the opportunity to avoid me. And then there's always The Code. Generally, though, I prefer for creators to have individual sites, with linkage between them. Then you can get a fair idea of who's good and who's not, depending on who is recommended by the people you already get stuff from, and you can get stuff from just the people whose stuff you like.

[Zeljka]

I don't know, I read that entire ridiculous thread in complete stunned horror. I couldn't believe that it got that far, it was like a bad movie that I couldn't walk out on. It was locked when I got there, I was kinda thinking it should have been nominated for retardo land

The way I see it is that if they as creators didn't even know it was there, why does it matter as very few, if any, downloaders ever will? I know everything I got from VS and who made it, as is true with 90% of what I've downloaded (barring recolours from tsr) ... but does it really matter? Does JM get a special twinkly feeling when I silently thank him because my Sim brought his brother over instead of a mailman? Inge, do you get any personal glory when I ban toddlers from the bathroom? As far as I know, there is no special reward for creators once people have downloaded their item anyway (though I personally wouldn't mind if there were).  5 years from now, will you care that people may be thanking you in their heads instead of cursing at their Sims if they're still playing the game? Will anyone really think Numenor and Captain Underpants (whatever his name is) created every Cep enabled object? And if they do, does their opinion matter?

As a completely neutral observer, I found Delphy's attempts at reason, uh, reasonable, Numenor, Quaxi and the rest of the visitors seemed to be attempting to explain and apologize and were met with insults, rants and the same stupid things being repeated over and over.

I really had no opinion on the MTS vs. VS, but I have to say that the VS people certainly conducted themselves shamefully. The way they shrieked and bashed like cranky toddlers made me lose any of the respect I may have had for many if not all participants (bashers) I hardly go there lately as it just doesn't seem worth it anymore. (plus it lags terribly despite my high speed connection)

[Motoki]

I still haven't read that thread and I don't want to. I got the Cliff's Notes from someone in my PM when I asked about it and that was more than enough. Wow, some drama in the TS2 community and I'm not even involved. :p And you know what? I'm glad. I don't miss the drama, bullshit, backstabbing, egos, credit and rights bullshit and rude, demanding and demeaning behavior. I know some of you guys complain about Retardo-land and I don't go there too much myself, but hell it's downright civil compared to some of the other shit going on.

I've decided to just say no to the Sims drama and feel a hell of a lot better for it.

[reggikko]

I'm going to be nosey for a moment. I've seen it mentioned several times that RGiles is no longer a part of the Sims community. What happened?

The level of arrogance and refusal to actually *read and comprehend* what was being said in that thread was astonishing. Are some of those people deliberately obtuse or what? Queen's completely personal attack on Delphy, regardless of any past history, was just base and uncalled for. Wintermute's ugly comments to Inge also left a very bad taste in my mouth. And Rentech "can't understand" Quaxi's English? WTF?

[Inge]

What I have heard about RGiles was that he had to turn his attention to RL matters and that his departure was not connected to things happening in the Sims community.   I don't know any details.

[reggikko]

What I have heard about RGiles was that he had to turn his attention to RL matters and that his departure was not connected to things happening in the Sims community.   I don't know any details.

Thanks, Inge.

[Zeljka]

The level of arrogance and refusal to actually *read and comprehend* what was being said in that thread was astonishing. Are some of those people deliberately obtuse or what? Queen's completely personal attack on Delphy, regardless of any past history, was just base and uncalled for. Wintermute's ugly comments to Inge also left a very bad taste in my mouth. And Rentech "can't understand" Quaxi's English?

I agree wholeheartedly. I think Wintermute was what started the shock and horror for me as I realized (getting in as late as I did) that it was just allowed to sit there in all it's grade 6 splendor. I just can't believe they would allow their moderators to carry on that way. I've seen Forums moderated by 11 year olds that aren't allowed to get that far out of hand.
They really dug themselves a big deep hole, wonder if their big heads will allow them to fall into it. On the bright side, I finally figured out what the remove reputation button is there for... and gained a new respect for those who managed to stay the hell out of it or simply attempt to state fact. Inge, I had to giggle... particularly as Reg mentioned (in the post in retardo land) where you said you must have accidentally typed buttocks instead of server. Sarcasm isn't always clear in postings, but it sure screamed there

[laeshanin]

This nonsensical behaviour isn't limited to Sim's forums either. Other forum's I have personal interest in are also full of people who are quite obviously thwarted despots. And the rivalry...! Dearie me... 

My system runs on despotism tempered by apathy.

We've come to count on it J.M. But it is despotism thinly veneered with a yummy coating of sheep flavour, plus the ever present "I really can't be arsed with this, you kick it for me" stuff. Keeps us coming back.

[dizzy]

* dizzy-two points in some random direction

"Whoa, what the heck is that?"

* dizzy-two sneaks away

Check it out. MTC at EA, in a promo:

http://thesims2.ea.com/about/console_videos.php?movieID=3

[laeshanin]

Hmm... gosh, more marketing. More raking in shit loads of cash.

[witch]

Just thought I'd let everybody know I have decided, after a good night's sleep, to take my lots off VS and leave an explanation why.

Don't suppose my post will be there long, it's all very 1984, but I feel much better for having done it. I don't like conflict but I usually stand up for my beliefs.

Now I just have to make a webpage. This would be fine except I've just downloaded Pegasys' (sp?) new sims database and I also have a java assignment due in in a couple of weeks. And all I really want to do is play the sims. Still, I'll let you know when I have something back up. I'm working on a split level house in shades of grey - based on Retroville set from MTS2 and a boarding house lot with elevators at the moment.

Edit: Well less than three hours I lasted. I had an auto-email from the thread I left, dizzy2 replied. I clicked the link. No thread, no witch. Gone, never existed. I feel a little orwellian today.

So, here is the text I posted at VS when I left.

If you have come to this forum looking for lots to download, I'm sorry but they have been removed. I hope this does not cause too much inconvenience to you.

I've decided I would like to put my lots on my own webpage, which will hopefully be ready in a couple of weeks.

Someone recently reminded me that I am known by the company I keep. The reason I am withdrawing from Variousimmers is because of a recent thread about CEP. Going by the abusive irrational comments I read in the first couple of pages of that thread, the first couple of pages was all I could stomach of the 9 odd pages, these are not people with whom I wish to be associated.

The final post, vilifying the character of a well known person in the sims2 community was nothing short of disgusting. I don't know the person being verbally abused, only of him, but no-one deserves filth like that. I followed a link to that post and wished I hadn't. I do not understand why it was allowed to remain there.

Variousimmers purports to be a family friendly site, so allowing that thread to rage unchecked, with participation from some of the staff of this site to boot, is almost unbelievable.

I'm not tarring all Variousimmer's staff with the same brush either, there were only a few here who participated, I've no idea how the others feel, some are possibly in shock.

I do say thank you to Variousimmers for hosting my lots, I hope many found enjoyment from downloading and playing them.

I'm sure I'll be seeing many of you round the sims community, those of us who just like playing a game and having a hobby anyway!

Cheers
witch

[dizzy]

Yeah, I composed a thoughtful, heartfelt goodbye and it got FUCKING DELETED. I'm not happy about that, but oh well. 

[witch]

Thanks! Don't spose you kept a copy of your text? I kept a copy of mine 'cos I expected this to happen. If you don't like something, just vanish it and pretend it never happened!

[Inge]

Well I pretty much have to eat my hat again.  I tore this site off a strip about all that Sheep stuff, but it's certainly coming in handy as somewhere we can discuss this matter openly without being asked to take it to private email    And Pescado please don't rub it in again this time lol

[dizzy]

The reply I wrote only made any sense in the context in which it was posted. Since the thread is gone, my context as well as my words are now gone. Either way, there's really no point in reposting it.

In any case, I now hold modthesims2 in much higher esteem than I did previously, though it is still far less awesome than *this* site.

[Inge]

Are you leaving your stuff there Dizzy?

[LynnMar]

I took about half of the survey but then it asked me a question that I thought was none of their business,  so I quit right in the middle of it.    

[dizzy]

Are you leaving your stuff there Dizzy?

Well, I was going to flee for the hills when I heard that they were planning to delete the thread, but they convinced me that it was simply the inconvenient way that witch suddenly left that urged them (and not, you know, censorship). I'm inclined to believe it, since there are still threads and posts of mine on VS in other forums that arouse RentechD's sincere disapproval even more than what was said in that goodbye thread.

[Motoki]

Well, I was going to flee for the hills when I heard that they were planning to delete the thread, but they convinced me that it was simply the inconvenient way that witch suddenly left that urged them (and not, you know, censorship). I'm inclined to believe it, since there are still threads and posts of mine on VS in other forums that arouse RentechD's sincere disapproval even more than what was said in that goodbye thread.

  Oh yes, it is all Witch's fault. What bullshit! You do know that she has the ability to just delete Witch's replies and leave the others.

At least she has some god damned balls to stand up for what she believes in take her shit off that place instead of getting snowed by them.

Pam, by the way, is very selective about what she censors and for reasons that don't always seem to make the most sense. She'll gladly leave a post cussing her out, but she went on a huge deleting spree when she was a mod at MTS2 deleting (not warning, out and out deleting on site) any threads where people posted their creations and didn't put "Testers Wanted" in the thread because it was her obsession of the moment.

[dizzy]

In addition to the fact that "my" contributions are public domain, there is no compelling reason for me to stop contributing to VS. Even if there were some question of my fortitude of principle, the fact is that there is no connection between my contributions and petty bickering going on in other parts of the site. If there were a direct confrontation between the site admins and my right to post freely, that would be another story.

[Motoki]

Well you obviously thought just several hours ago there was a compelling enough reason for you to compose a "a thoughtful, heartfelt goodbye". I've always felt where one hosts their files does reflect on them and the way Pam and her little lynch mob have treated people like Pescado, Numenor and Quaxi I personally wouldn't do anything to help promote her or her site even indirectly.

However you can do whatever the hell you want Dizzy, I really don't care. I just think it's a bunch of shit to let her pin the deletion of that thread on Witch. Witch didn't come over to her house, log onto her computer and delete it. She did and that's censorship no matter how Pam tries to justify it. As I pointed out, she also had the option of just deleting Witch's replies, which would have been bad but not as bad, but she just yanked out the whole thread. I think she must have realized the whole thing is spiraling out of control and is trying to do some damage control, but she needs to take responsibility for her actions and not blame it on someone else.

[Inge]

Being Pam means never having to say you're sorry...

I think I can see where Dizzy is coming from, I think he's trying to keep his modding separate from community politics.  Some of us have been personally insulted or embarrassed by rentechd, and Dizzy obviously doesn't feel he has been.  On the other hand he's an easy-going guy and if I'd been him I *would* have felt insulted by rentechd jumping into *my* forum, in *my* thread about my cloning and distribution policies and telling everyone her opinion of my policy.   Yes it's a point for debate on a sims forum somewhere, but no not on the space she had allocated *me* to run.  That would have smacked to me of weight-pulling - basically disrespectful.

But I have to practice what I preach and respect Dizzy's own decisions for his own work.  He's helped me out in the past and I wouldn't want to fall out over it.

[Motoki]

I think I can see where Dizzy is coming from, I think he's trying to keep his modding separate from community politics.

See and I guess I just don't think that's possible in this community. I've become cynnical by having had to be a refugee going from site to site when the shit starts flying, but as I've mentioned above in my personal opinion the only way to completely avoid getting caught up in this kind of crap is to have your own site or host your stuff somewhere neutral at least (ie the Exchange, FilePlanet, Geocities, Yahoo etc).

Some of us have been personally insulted or embarrassed by rentechd, and Dizzy obviously doesn't feel he has been.

That's fine, that's his right. I guess I am just a your screw with my friends then you screw with me type of person and don't really understand how people can stay neutral, but if they can more power to them. That's why I'm not going over there and never looked at that thread because I know I would feel compelled to comment and get sucked in. 

On the other hand he's an easy-going guy and if I'd been him I *would* have felt insulted by rentechd jumping into *my* forum, in *my* thread about my cloning and distribution policies and telling everyone her opinion of my policy.   Yes it's a point for debate on a sims forum somewhere, but no not on the space she had allocated *me* to run.  That would have smacked to me of weight-pulling - basically disrespectful.

I saw that too and wondered what the hell her problem was putting her two cents in like that.

But I have to practice what I preach and respect Dizzy's own decisions for his own work.  He's helped me out in the past and I wouldn't want to fall out over it.

Obviously he can do what he wants. I'm not going to lie, I have my own opinions about it, but who the hell am I to tell someone else what to do? Anyhow, Pam's 'Oh witch made me delete the thread' bullshit irritated me far more than Dizzy's I'm leaving, wait, I'm staying stuff.

[laeshanin]

Well, I was going to flee for the hills when I heard that they were planning to delete the thread, but they convinced me that it was simply the inconvenient way that witch suddenly left that urged them (and not, you know, censorship). I'm inclined to believe it, since there are still threads and posts of mine on VS in other forums that arouse RentechD's sincere disapproval even more than what was said in that goodbye thread.

How can you have an "inconvenient way of leaving", and I read the post Witch left? She wasn't rude, or inflammatory in any way, just stated that she had doubts and real concerns, which is fair. Hmmm, I think it still smacks of spite and knee-jerk reaction, which seems to be a way for some people to deal with confrontation/criticism whether it is negative or otherwise. 

[Motoki]

How can you have an "inconvenient way of leaving", and I read the post Witch left? She wasn't rude, or inflammatory in any way, just stated that she had doubts and real concerns, which is fair. Hmmm, I think it still smacks of spite and knee-jerk reaction, which seems to be a way for some people to deal with confrontation/criticism whether it is negative or otherwise. 

It's all lies. It's just her way to manipulate him into staying because she places more value on him as a creator due to his hacks. Notice while she made an overture to get Dizzy to stay, she didn't even try with Witch, in fact she used her as a scapegoat. If Witch was making hacks I'd bet you money she'd be kissing her ass to stay too.